Can this still be a lifestyle job?

[BoardingDoc]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Would EM residency the palliative care fellowship let someone stop working in the ED and just do palliative care on the floors? Does anyone know? Because that’s what I wondered but haven’t asked them. I think they might be insulted by the question.

Yes, that's an option. One of the long time forum semi-regulars @dchristismi did so.

On the other side of the coin, one of my colleagues did a palliative fellowship after residency. He was offered something like 0.5fte as EM and 0.5fte as palliative. Hated palliative. Works full time EM again now. Not really sure if it was systemic issues or the job itself that he disliked.

 

[GimpGenius]

Would EM residency the palliative care fellowship let someone stop working in the ED and just do palliative care on the floors? Does anyone know? Because that’s what I wondered but haven’t asked them. I think they might be insulted by the question.

Sure can. You'll have the same qualifications as anyone else who does the fellowship. You can run an outpatient clinic, do inpatient consults or run an inpatient service, do hospice work, or some combination thereof depending on what the local market is like.

Some EM/HPM folks hybridize (split ED work and palliative work), and some do one field or the other exclusively.

 

[Pinner Doc]

My relative in EM did a palliative care fellowship, they thought there was a role for end of life discussions with patients by EM docs trained in it in the ED. I don’t know enough to debate that. But I wonder if it could be an escape hatch to do palliative care instead.

I'm PGY 17 and applying to a palliative fellowship this year. There were four people interviewing on my interview day, and three of us were EM.

 

[Backpack234]

Lol im far far away from where emergent is. Hes in another league, me not so much.

Though, I didn’t do anything special that others cannot do. All i did was - marry right, low maintenance girl who meaningfully contributes to the family, lived in the midwest to keep costs down, and then saved and invested aggressively.

The first million is the hardest and takes the longest, that’s really when one has to hustle, can definitely start slowing down after that.

I’ve missed your latest updates. If you’re ok sharing, where are you now financially? Also, how much do you make working those 10 shifts?

 

[cyanide12345678]

I’ve missed your latest updates. If you’re ok sharing, where are you now financially? Also, how much do you make working those 10 shifts?

Sitting at a little over 2.3M net worth - most of it is investment assets, maybe 100k in home equity. 5 yrs and a couple months out of training.

Made over 900k last year in 2023 - 473k w2 income for me - included a 3 year retention bonus of 60k, wife made some 230k, and my options made 205k, and i received some 10k in passive income from syndications. So all in all increased net worth by 500-550k in 2023 alone after all expenses etc.

I’m obviously coast fi - probably 2-3 years from complete FI.

I’m now down to 9 shifts per month on my w2 gig - will make 320k through these 9 shifts. I’m working 2-3 shifts per month at a 1099 gig - each shift is $3600 in 12 hours.

The plan is to do 9 shifts at the main gig and 2 monthly shifts at the side gig - these 11 shifts a month should break 400k moving forward and will give me a 401k, 457b, hsa, and solo 401k for tax deferrals which i desperately need since i paid around 300k in taxes last year.

My wife is also now 1099 and has left her old job making 230k. Now she works 3 days a week, roughly 5 hrs a day, and makes 250k 1099.

2024 is probably going to end around 800-900k income, will see how it ends, depends on my options trading that’s sitting at 167k ytd gain right now, if all goes well, should gain 40-50k by year end.

Probably hitting 3M in 2026 which on paper is more or less where we are with the 4% rule, that would be me finishing 7 yrs as attending in July 2026. Im fairly happy with my personal trajectory.

 

[JAFERD_MD]

Sitting at a little over 2.3M net worth - most of it is investment assets, maybe 100k in home equity. 5 yrs and a couple months out of training.

Made over 900k last year in 2023 - 473k w2 income for me - included a 3 year retention bonus of 60k, wife made some 230k, and my options made 205k, and i received some 10k in passive income from syndications. So all in all increased net worth by 500-550k in 2023 alone after all expenses etc.

I’m obviously coast fi - probably 2-3 years from complete FI.

I’m now down to 9 shifts per month on my w2 gig - will make 320k through these 9 shifts. I’m working 2-3 shifts per month at a 1099 gig - each shift is $3600 in 12 hours.

The plan is to do 9 shifts at the main gig and 2 monthly shifts at the side gig - these 11 shifts a month should break 400k moving forward and will give me a 401k, 457b, hsa, and solo 401k for tax deferrals which i desperately need since i paid around 300k in taxes last year.

My wife is also now 1099 and has left her old job making 230k. Now she works 3 days a week, roughly 5 hrs a day, and makes 250k 1099.

Probably hitting 3M in 2026 which on paper is more or less where we are with the 4% rule, that would be me finishing 7 yrs as attending in July 2026. Im fairly happy with my personal trajectory.

Wondering what your monthly spend is and if there are kids.

Still wondering how we can navigate this coastFI/FIRE mindset with 27 years left of a big ass mortgage hanging over our heads. Mortgage is <3%. But we're probably coastFI depending on what number I put in for retirement age. 5yrs left if we want to retire at 52, 1 yr left if we want to retire at 62.

I really want to quit EM and take a M-F job with regular hours so I can be around for my kids when they're older. Spouse has an irregular work schedule too. Downside is everything is more crowded on the weekends, and I hate people.

 

[cyanide12345678]

I’ve missed your latest updates. If you’re ok sharing, where are you now financially? Also, how much do you make working those 10 shifts?

2024 I also added another stream of mostly passive income of around 10k a year. This will likely ramp up over time. I officially have a passive Walmart store that’s run by a guy who takes 50 percent of all profit. I own the business entity 100%. He does 100% of the work, i provide a unlimited credit line to fulfill orders through dropshippers. In 2 months my store has 180 sales so far.

 

[BoardingDoc]

Wondering what your monthly spend is and if there are kids.

Still wondering how we can navigate this coastFI/FIRE mindset with 27 years left of a big ass mortgage hanging over our heads. Mortgage is <3%. But we're probably coastFI depending on what number I put in for retirement age. 5yrs left if we want to retire at 52, 1 yr left if we want to retire at 62.

I really want to quit EM and take a M-F job with regular hours so I can be around for my kids when they're older. Spouse has an irregular work schedule too. Downside is everything is more crowded on the weekends, and I hate people.

Based on his numbers (900k income, 300k in taxes --> 600k kept, NW increased by 500-550k means annual spend is 50-100k, which is an absurdly low spend in my mind).

Honestly, if you're spending 100k/yr at the most and you have a 2.3M NW right now with an annual 500k add to NW, I assume you're going to be retired in the next 2 years.

 

[cyanide12345678]

Based on his numbers (900k income, 300k in taxes --> 600k kept, NW increased by 500-550k means annual spend is 50-100k, which is an absurdly low spend in my mind).

Honestly, if you're spending 100k/yr at the most and you have a 2.3M NW right now with an annual 500k add to NW, I assume you're going to be retired in the next 2 years.

Annual spend around 130-150k. I don’t really track my spending as long as net worth is going up, things are fine lol.

A decent increase in net worth was markets going up. Of course the lion share was through income.

 

[Splenda88]

Annual spend around 130-150k. I don’t really track my spending as long as net worth is going up, things are fine lol.

A decent increase in net worth was markets going up. Of course the lion share was through income.

Medicine has been great to you. Lol

You can amass a net worth of 5+ mil in less than 10 yrs of attending-hood.

Can't wait to hit that 2+ million mark. But it might take me another 4-5. yrs. I only save/invest ~120k/yr.

 

[cyanide12345678]

Wondering what your monthly spend is and if there are kids.

Still wondering how we can navigate this coastFI/FIRE mindset with 27 years left of a big ass mortgage hanging over our heads. Mortgage is <3%. But we're probably coastFI depending on what number I put in for retirement age. 5yrs left if we want to retire at 52, 1 yr left if we want to retire at 62.

I really want to quit EM and take a M-F job with regular hours so I can be around for my kids when they're older. Spouse has an irregular work schedule too. Downside is everything is more crowded on the weekends, and I hate people.

2 kids, one is almost 5 and the other is 1 year old. Looking forward to expenses dropping by 15k once the older one goes to public school.

Monthly we're usually somewhere between 10-13k. I think last year we clocked in 144k of expenses. It is fairly hard for me to follow expenses since i have some 10 or so credit cards and there's a lot of transfers between different accounts happening frequently.

Though I'm no where near quitting right now, but theoretically I dont think I would have an issue quitting with a mortgage of 2.75% and $3200/mo which includes taxes and insurance. I think I've just gotten really good at creating income through investments. Plus, the reality is that if I retire at 40 (5 yrs from now) then in the next 30 or so years, I'll atleast make some form of income and not just be sitting at home doing nothing. The idea of FIRE is that most likely I'll do something on my own terms that gives me purpose.

The 4% rule is based on having $0 in income - almost no one has $0 in income who retires early.

 

[cyanide12345678]

Based on his numbers (900k income, 300k in taxes --> 600k kept, NW increased by 500-550k means annual spend is 50-100k, which is an absurdly low spend in my mind).

Honestly, if you're spending 100k/yr at the most and you have a 2.3M NW right now with an annual 500k add to NW, I assume you're going to be retired in the next 2 years.

I probably will be at FI in 2-3 years where if I did drop everything and quit, I probably could survive multiple decades on my portfolio. Most likely with a 30% JEPI, 40% SPY, and 30% VXUS portfolio, I think dividends alone will be in the 3-4% range. Throw in a sprinkle of cash flow positive syndications, and throw in some really really really out of the money puts on leverage and then 4% withdrawal should not even touch the equity of the portfolio.

The problem is that every time I tell my wife that I'm quitting in a few years, she keeps lecturing me how we need to show our kids how we work hard instead of just being bums at home who don't do any work. I mean...valid point. I guess I'll keep working for my kids to teach them work ethic -_- Hard to teach work ethic when you don't work 😛

 

[cyanide12345678]

Medicine has been great to you. Lol

You can amass a net worth of 5+ mil in less than 10 yrs of attending-hood.

Can't wait to hit that 2+ million mark. But it might take me another 4-5. yrs. I only save/invest ~120k/yr.

Well...EM was a calculated decision. Based on my math, it was financially a better choice than things like GI and cardiology after taking into account the 3 year opportunity cost and the portfolio returns. Where I was wrong though was taking career longevity into account. I don't know if I would have felt the same burn out in any other specialty - Maybe I would. Who knows?

If I actually do squeeze out another 5 years from my career as an EM doc, I most likely will hit 4-5M. But the closer I get to 3M, the less desire I have to work. So I see a world where I do just 7-8 shifts a month after I hit 3M, which will obviously slow down the path towards 5M+ in wealth.

 

[Splenda88]

Well...EM was a calculated decision. Based on my math, it was financially a better choice than things like GI and cardiology after taking into account the 3 year opportunity cost and the portfolio returns. Where I was wrong though was taking career longevity into account. I don't know if I would have felt the same burn out in any other specialty - Maybe I would. Who knows?

If I actually do squeeze out another 5 years from my career as an EM doc, I most likely will hit 4-5M. But the closer I get to 3M, the less desire I have to work. So I see a world where I do just 7-8 shifts a month after I hit 3M, which will obviously slow down the path towards 5M+ in wealth.

Agree about career longevity. However, from a purely financial standpoint, EM beats most of the IM subspecialties. General cardiology is overrated IMO from a financial standpoint. GI is a different story because these people can "scope their way out to 1+ mil a year."

 

[EctopicFetus]

Well...EM was a calculated decision. Based on my math, it was financially a better choice than things like GI and cardiology after taking into account the 3 year opportunity cost and the portfolio returns. Where I was wrong though was taking career longevity into account. I don't know if I would have felt the same burn out in any other specialty - Maybe I would. Who knows?

If I actually do squeeze out another 5 years from my career as an EM doc, I most likely will hit 4-5M. But the closer I get to 3M, the less desire I have to work. So I see a world where I do just 7-8 shifts a month after I hit 3M, which will obviously slow down the path towards 5M+ in wealth.

Do you have a $$ goal or are you basically coast FI and will keep working as you mentioned to show your kids work ethic. I think the same. I cant imagine quitting while my kids are in school.

It is oddly not hard to remain motivated but at this point it is a numbers game than an actual need. Our spending has been completely insane but sending kids to private school bumps your household spending by a bunch.

 

[cyanide12345678]

Do you have a $$ goal or are you basically coast FI and will keep working as you mentioned to show your kids work ethic. I think the same. I cant imagine quitting while my kids are in school.

It is oddly not hard to remain motivated but at this point it is a numbers game than an actual need. Our spending has been completely insane but sending kids to private school bumps your household spending by a bunch.

I think the immediate dollar goal is 3M. Essentially once the kids are in school and no longer in day care, then our expenses are sub 120k, so on paper i would meet the 4% rule at 3M in assets.

I think between 3-4 million was always the magical number that i wanted to achieve if i continued to live in the US. It’s the number where if i lost my job - id go home and say F it. Great. I’m done.

As my net worth has increased, I’ve become a lot more relaxed about money. I keep cutting my main w2 income. I’ve effectively taken my 3rd paycut now in the last 3 years: 12 shifts at terrible high paying job -> decent rural gig but 13 monthly shifts -> 10 shifts -> 9 shifts

I don’t know what I’ll do after hitting 3-4M. Maybe something finance related? It’s no secret that im very passionate about personal finance 🤣 maybe become a finance coach and officially get a cfp or something? Ive actually even had 1 paid client who i taught my options strategy. Made $300 😂

 

[EctopicFetus]

I think the immediate dollar goal is 3M. Essentially once the kids are in school and no longer in day care, then our expenses are sub 120k, so on paper i would meet the 4% rule at 3M in assets.

I think between 3-4 million was always the magical number that i wanted to achieve if i continued to live in the US. It’s the number where if i lost my job - id go home and say F it. Great. I’m done.

As my net worth has increased, I’ve become a lot more relaxed about money. I keep cutting my main w2 income. I’ve effectively taken my 3rd paycut now in the last 3 years: 12 shifts at terrible high paying job -> decent rural gig but 13 monthly shifts -> 10 shifts -> 9 shifts

I don’t know what I’ll do after hitting 3-4M. Maybe something finance related? It’s no secret that im very passionate about personal finance 🤣 maybe become a finance coach and officially get a cfp or something? Ive actually even had 1 paid client who i taught my options strategy. Made $300 😂

Awesome. I know you know this but have you considered the need for $$ for kids college / 529. I guess if you are making 120k a year student loans would be an option for kids.

I give you credit more than anything for being able to keep expenses low. Thats the key. In addition, props to you for finding a cadence with shifts to keep you happy and work manageable.

I feel like once you hit CoastFI with a work schedule you can tolerate life feels different. Thats been my experience. I enjoy clinical and admin / side gig work. What I really enjoy about it is clinically what we all do / dont enjoy but I dont pick up evenings or weekends unless someone is in need. I try to do all admin work and side gig work while my kids are in school. One of the main pain points to me about clinical EM is not being able to schedule stuff with my kids consistently. “Hey every Tuesday after school we will do X”. With my job that would be possible because I can just ask off but the point is im not home every evening like many jobs are. Same for weekends.

Being financially comfortable will allow me to take some business risks that I was afraid of before. I am so happy for you and others that are at or near FI. I think the future of EM is dark.. i think being able to say F it is ones only hope.

 

[Janders]

I think the immediate dollar goal is 3M. Essentially once the kids are in school and no longer in day care, then our expenses are sub 120k, so on paper i would meet the 4% rule at 3M in assets.

I think between 3-4 million was always the magical number that i wanted to achieve if i continued to live in the US. It’s the number where if i lost my job - id go home and say F it. Great. I’m done.

As my net worth has increased, I’ve become a lot more relaxed about money. I keep cutting my main w2 income. I’ve effectively taken my 3rd paycut now in the last 3 years: 12 shifts at terrible high paying job -> decent rural gig but 13 monthly shifts -> 10 shifts -> 9 shifts

I don’t know what I’ll do after hitting 3-4M. Maybe something finance related? It’s no secret that im very passionate about personal finance 🤣 maybe become a finance coach and officially get a cfp or something? Ive actually even had 1 paid client who i taught my options strategy. Made $300 😂

Had lots of discussions with friends that are in the 10-15yr out range lately.

And the question is when to take the foot off the pedal. A lot of us came out with debt and no savings and no generational wealth and the work ethic to grind extra shifts and live like residents for a few years.

Which is great, in that now you have a half paid off house that has appreciated 50% and maybe 2-4 million in various savings / retirement vehicles.

For me I also locked in on “3mil” as a target number, as once you hit that you could walk and live on 100k yearly for a good long time. Basically you have a wonderful safety net that most people will never have. That seemed a specific goal to feel “super safe”.

Once you do that—

Do to you keep the pace high while you are at you peak to hit a 5-8mil truly retire number? Do you cut to 0.5FTE and just ride it for 10-15 more years? Switch careers to something you enjoy more? Drop one shift a month every year until it’s time to quit? Start actually spending that money like you mean it?

It’s a more difficult math than the accelerating phase which is grind grind grind grind.

 

[cyanide12345678]

Awesome. I know you know this but have you considered the need for $$ for kids college / 529. I guess if you are making 120k a year student loans would be an option for kids.

I give you credit more than anything for being able to keep expenses low. Thats the key. In addition, props to you for finding a cadence with shifts to keep you happy and work manageable.

Yeah saving about $3500/child/year for 529. Though the reality is, my trading gains offsets any potential tax benefit. My kids will probably go to in state schools too so tuition likely will not be high.

For me I also locked in on “3mil” as a target number, as once you hit that you could walk and live on 100k yearly for a good long time. Basically you have a wonderful safety net that most people will never have. That seemed a specific goal to feel “super safe”.

Once you do that—

Do to you keep the pace high while you are at you peak to hit a 5-8mil truly retire number? Do you cut to 0.5FTE and just ride it for 10-15 more years? Switch careers to something you enjoy more? Drop one shift a month every year until it’s time to quit? Start actually spending that money like you mean it?

It’s a more difficult math than the accelerating phase which is grind grind grind grind.

Yeah it’s interesting the struggle i have in my mind. A huge part of me feels like im leaving so much money on the table by cutting hours, it feels like im not fulfilling my full potential. But at the same time - what’s the point really? By having 2M at 35, I’ve already most likely created generational wealth given another 30-50 years of compounding.

How much money is enough - that’s such a difficult question to answer at times.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Yeah saving about $3500/child/year for 529. Though the reality is, my trading gains offsets any potential tax benefit. My kids will probably go to in state schools too so tuition likely will not be high.



Yeah it’s interesting the struggle i have in my mind. A huge part of me feels like im leaving so much money on the table by cutting hours, it feels like im not fulfilling my full potential. But at the same time - what’s the point really? By having 2M at 35, I’ve already most likely created generational wealth given another 30-50 years of compounding.

How much money is enough - that’s such a difficult question to answer at times.

Agreed. I enjoy these discussions because that is where I am. I am older than you but have more saved. I havent slowed down mostly because I still enjoy work. I know that is rare these days. I have just been off about a week and am itching to go back.

That being said i dont just sit at home in my robe doing nothing on my days off between family, personal and other professional obligations. I still enjoy my shifts.

I feel like by working my 9-12 days a month it leaves plenty of family time though ill admit the pain of working weekends stings more now than when i was younger. I have about a decade til my youngest goes off to college and at that point I imagine ill care less about working weekends but by then assuming a standard stock market return 8-12%/yr ill have amassed more wealth than I ever could have imagined.

The question like you said is why do it? I am likely to launch a new venture soon and that would potentially be a game changer both financially and with my time.

 

[JacobMcCandles]

The biggest issue is sequence of returns risk. With the S&P 500 being at near all-time highs and seemingly going up irrationally, I wouldn’t feel comfortable retiring if my number didn’t have some cushion built in. A 30-40% drop, which isn’t unlikely at some point, will wreck you. The one caveat is that as an EM physician you could likely find some work fairly quickly to get you through.

 

[EctopicFetus]

The biggest issue is sequence of returns risk. With the S&P 500 being at near all-time highs and seemingly going up irrationally, I wouldn’t feel comfortable retiring if my number didn’t have some cushion built in. A 30-40% drop, which isn’t unlikely at some point, will wreck you. The one caveat is that as an EM physician you could likely find some work fairly quickly to get you through.

I think everyone has to set their paths. I plan on having 1-3 years of expenses on hand in cash or similar so that if the market dumps I'm not selling at the bottom and if they market is extra good, ill pull out a little more over the next few months.

 

[em1234]

I cut back to .5 FTE 6mo ago, at pgy 16, and I don't regret it.

I have always been a pedal to the metal guy since I got out of residency. We did all the WCI stuff. lived cheaply, eliminated loans/debt, saved aggressively, and worked hard, probably too hard. At one point, I worked 2 FTE for 1 year but averaged 1.25-1.5 FTE for my entire career until the pandemic when I cut back to 1.1 FTE. 2 years ago I started doing some UM stuff for my hospital on the side which really changed my perspective. As I review these charts, I was constantly slapped in the face with my own mortality whether it be 45yo with metastatic colon/ovarian/liver/renal cancer, 55yo encephalopathic with NASH, 63yo hit by a car while out riding his bike, but you can pick your own unforeseen tragedy that completely changed the trajectory of these people's lives and it lead to me being constantly bombarded with intrusive thoughts of "what if I only have 5, 10, 15 or even 20 good years left, do I want to spend them swimming against the unrelenting crashing tide of a health care system that doesn't care about me or should I be spending those precious moments with the people I love." It forced me to reevaluate if I actually had enough and I started to shift my gears from less WCI/FIRE to a bit more of a YOLO mentality. I have written about this before in other posts, but I have already missed so much of my children's lives by working too much to secure their future that I felt like I had reached a moment where it was more important to be with them than it was to "not leave more on the table." I am ever appreciative of younger me who was able to plow through all those shifts to get us where we are now because I couldn't do it again now.
at 46yo, 4 million in retirement/taxable, college covered with 529s, paid off house and a spouse who makes ok money who likes going to work, I'm fine with coasting. I make more than enough from the 6 shifts, plus my UM stuff to cover all our bills. My wife's money is the fun money. Now, with two kids in high school and one in middle school, I rarely miss a game or a practice. I volunteer at the school. I sleep way better at night with so many fewer carcadian disruptions. I work out more. I make the dinners. I feel more connected to the important parts of my life, and It's pretty blissful.

So to answer the original question, it is a lifestyle job for me, it *could* still be a lifestyle specialty but as others have mentioned there are some tremendous headwinds coming for the specialty which will make it much harder for the next generation of EM docs.

As it has been said before, personal finance is personal. Only you can figure out what your number is or when it is time to take your foot off the pedal, but I caution you to recognize your personal runway is not infinite. Take time to prioritize the things and people that matter most to you, because our very large group has had 3 docs die over the last few years and I can say with a high degree of certainty that your CMG will replace you without so much as a go fund me page in your honor.

-1234

 

[JacobMcCandles]

I think everyone has to set their paths. I plan on having 1-3 years of expenses on hand in cash or similar so that if the market dumps I'm not selling at the bottom and if they market is extra good, ill pull out a little more over the next few months.

I think that’s pretty reasonable and similar to my plan. One thing that gets overlooked about EM is the financial piece of mind it offers. Most people could cover their expenses with minimal effort for several years, if needed. The argument could be made that most financially savvy docs won’t be in that situation but it’s a nice fallback that many professions don’t have.

 

[HemorrhagicShock]

IMHO the cost of capital is effectively the S&P 500, and if you are not beating it, you are actively losing

I don't think the "retire on 2-3M" is a safe bet anymore if you want a 4% safe withdrawal rate (which I think is aggressive)

A variety of assumptions people use to calculate their version of FIRE/FatFIRE/LeanFIRE simply don't hold anymore.

Is it reasonable to estimate inflation at 2% year over year?

Is it reasonable to estimate even 9-11% returns yearly?

Who knows what other unknown unknowns await you concerning your yearly spend...

I'm targeting $10M or more.

 

[Splenda88]

IMHO the cost of capital is effectively the S&P 500, and if you are not beating it, you are actively losing

I don't think the "retire on 2-3M" is a safe bet anymore if you want a 4% safe withdrawal rate (which I think is aggressive)

A variety of assumptions people use to calculate their version of FIRE/FatFIRE/LeanFIRE simply don't hold anymore.

Is it reasonable to estimate inflation at 2% year over year?

Is it reasonable to estimate even 9-11% returns yearly?

Who knows what other unknown unknowns await you concerning your yearly spend...

I'm targeting $10M or more.

What kind of lifestyle you gonna have? At what age you plan to reach that magic number (10M)?

 

[Janders]

I cut back to .5 FTE 6mo ago, at pgy 16, and I don't regret it.


-1234

Sounds like I’m close to your situation, and you have to say I find your decision inspirational.

 

[EctopicFetus]

IMHO the cost of capital is effectively the S&P 500, and if you are not beating it, you are actively losing

I don't think the "retire on 2-3M" is a safe bet anymore if you want a 4% safe withdrawal rate (which I think is aggressive)

A variety of assumptions people use to calculate their version of FIRE/FatFIRE/LeanFIRE simply don't hold anymore.

Is it reasonable to estimate inflation at 2% year over year?

Is it reasonable to estimate even 9-11% returns yearly?

Who knows what other unknown unknowns await you concerning your yearly spend...

I'm targeting $10M or more.

I am not sure i agree. I think it is fine to be more conservative. That being said the 4% rule in theory gets you 25 years of money and the returns account for inflation and your investment will usually grow beyond that. The issue with the 4% rule or any other rule is it varies based on your age. If I was gonna retire at 33 I wouldnt feel awesome about the 4% rule.. If I was 80 I damn sure would..

 

[TooMuchResearch]

What kind of lifestyle you gonna have? At what age you plan to reach that magic number (10M)?

A better one than I actually want.
As soon as possible.

 

[HemorrhagicShock]

What kind of lifestyle you gonna have? At what age you plan to reach that magic number (10M)?

All great questions, and I'll let you know when I get there

I will say this, for me it's about top-tier experiences.

I think a fancy Lambo or whatever is a complete waste of money, but that's also because IDGAF about the driving experience or peacocking.

But I have no problem dropping $3,000 on legit Michelin meal with the rare wine pairing.

I can't go back to economy now that I'm spoiled by Emirates Business.

For sure, I'll spend $4k per ticket for my wife to enjoy a top-tier Taylor Swift Eras tour experience.

So yea dude, I'm gonna want and need $10M

 

[cyanide12345678]

IMHO the cost of capital is effectively the S&P 500, and if you are not beating it, you are actively losing

I don't think the "retire on 2-3M" is a safe bet anymore if you want a 4% safe withdrawal rate (which I think is aggressive)

A variety of assumptions people use to calculate their version of FIRE/FatFIRE/LeanFIRE simply don't hold anymore.

Is it reasonable to estimate inflation at 2% year over year?

Is it reasonable to estimate even 9-11% returns yearly?

Who knows what other unknown unknowns await you concerning your yearly spend...

I'm targeting $10M or more.

given where inflation stands and the high valuations of the US stock market, i agree 4% seems a little aggressive if you have a 70:30 portfolio.

However if you have a deep understanding of investing, i think it’s possible to feel secure at 4% withdrawal rate.

For example - if i was to retire today and had to do a traditional portfolio, instead of BND, i would do 30 percent jepi which should return 7-8 percent in annualized dividends. And because of my understanding of how jepi is structured, i would sell all jepi and switch to spy/vti every time that the market will drop by 20%. This will almost certainly mean outperforming spy in a big downturn because of the risk mitigation of covered calls of jepi, while mitigating the risk of missing out on upside on recovery due to the covered calls of jepi.

Most likely 30% of my portfolio will also end up in real estate - but unlike today where i take equity risk, almost all holdings will then be in preferred equity or first lein holder position - not hard to find them - literally 4 open deals right now on equity multiple with 10-12 percent return through acting like a bank with loan to value at less than 70%. A lot of syndicators also do 2 different classes of shares - one class of preferred equity usually gives a 10 percent monthly return on day 1.

So getting a 6-7 percent return isn’t as hard as you would think which should support a 4% withdrawal rate in perpetuity as well as account for inflation.

 

[cyanide12345678]

All great questions, and I'll let you know when I get there

I will say this, for me it's about top-tier experiences.

I think a fancy Lambo or whatever is a complete waste of money, but that's also because IDGAF about the driving experience or peacocking.

But I have no problem dropping $3,000 on legit Michelin meal with the rare wine pairing.

I can't go back to economy now that I'm spoiled by Emirates Business.

For sure, I'll spend $4k per ticket for my wife to enjoy a top-tier Taylor Swift Eras tour experience.

So yea dude, I'm gonna want and need $10M

$3000 on a meal?? Damn dude. The most expensive meal I’ve had is probably a 30-40 dollar steak 😂

I’ve had a lot of free expensive meals through recruiters 😂

 

[Mbekweni]

I think the best move is the live like a resident and work hard until lean FI (2-3M for me), then cut back and coast working enough to meet expenses and maybe put a bit away for another 10-20+ years. Working 6-10 shifts a month with a good group close to home can actually be fun.

Each year without retiring fully is time you don’t withdraw from savings so you leave more in the pot, and a year for compounded growth AND one less year needed to sustain from retirement savings in terms of risk.

 

[sloh]

$3000 on a meal?? Damn dude. The most expensive meal I’ve had is probably a 30-40 dollar steak

I’ve had a lot of free expensive meals through recruiters

You haven’t been to LA fine dining haha

 

[xaelia]

You haven’t been to LA fine dining haha

I think I topped out on about $1000 of epic sushi in Boston. Once in a lifetime.

Back in 1999 before the dot-com bubble burst, I guarantee we wrecked Microsoft's recruiting budget at a steakhouse in Palo Alto – the wine list is where things get out of hand.

 

[sloh]

I think I topped out on about $1000 of epic sushi in Boston. Once in a lifetime.

Back in 1999 before the dot-com bubble burst, I guarantee we wrecked Microsoft's recruiting budget at a steakhouse in Palo Alto – the wine list is where things get out of hand.

When alcohol is involved, there is like no ceiling to cost haha. I don’t really drink. I’ve gone to some of the most popular fine dining restaurants in LA but I’d say my sweet spot is a meal out for 2 for 300-ish. Nice restaurant, good ambience, good service, good food coursed out bc a lot of food needs to be enjoyed at the optimal temperature or before it gets soggy/cold, 3-5 main dishes and apps. Even then I can only do this once per week probably. I care about my figure hehe

It’s very rare I want to go for a 10+ course fine dining experience that lasts 2.5-3 hrs these days. I’m not the only one either:

The Tasting Menu Gets a Trim

Is choice, rather than excess, the new luxury in fine dining?

tastecooking.com

 

[BoardingDoc]

I think I topped out on about $1000 of epic sushi in Boston. Once in a lifetime.

Back in 1999 before the dot-com bubble burst, I guarantee we wrecked Microsoft's recruiting budget at a steakhouse in Palo Alto – the wine list is where things get out of hand.

O Ya I assume.

 

[Mount Asclepius]

Going out for fine dining is well worth it, but limited geographically to many to some degree other than when traveling.

I highly recommend ordering A5 Japanese Wagyu Filets online shipped directly overnight on dry ice and then sharing as part of a home created five course dinner paired with the wine or drink of your choosing with a group of 6-8 of your closest friends/family. You’ll spend over $1,000 on the Wagyu alone, but those that you love won’t be disappointed by the experience.

 

[xaelia]

O Ya I assume.

"Bring us the most expensive bottle on the menu."

"Bring us the oldest bottle you have."

... "Good sirs, may I interest such connoisseurs such as yourselves in something from our private collection?"

"Oh yes, make it so."

Some of my friends who went into private equity or their family businesses can live like that, now, while lil' ol' me waits until my peanut butter goes on sale to stock up ....

 

[HemorrhagicShock]

"Bring us the most expensive bottle on the menu."

"Bring us the oldest bottle you have."

... "Good sirs, may I interest such connoisseurs such as yourselves in something from our private collection?"

"Oh yes, make it so."

Some of my friends who went into private equity or their family businesses can live like that, now, while lil' ol' me waits until my peanut butter goes on sale to stock up ....

This is what I'm getting at when I say $3000 meal.

Personally, even if I could afford that daily, I would never.

Aside from the glaring health issues that would cause, it would completely numb the experience of top-tier fine dining. Like any vice, you gotta do it sparingly, lest it turn into an addiction.

 

[xaelia]

This is what I'm getting at when I say $3000 meal.

... $3000 was the cheapest of the bottles of wine we had at our table.

Can't imagine a dumber way to waste your own money than on stupidly expensive wines. But, that's just me ....

 

[Apollyon]

... $3000 was the cheapest of the bottles of wine we had at our table.

Can't imagine a dumber way to waste your own money than on stupidly expensive wines. But, that's just me ....

You can't take it with you!

 

[Splenda88]

$3000 on a meal?? Damn dude. The most expensive meal I’ve had is probably a 30-40 dollar steak 😂

I’ve had a lot of free expensive meals through recruiters 😂

A good steak for $40?

 

[GassYous]

A good steak for $40?

That doesn't even cover the tip

 

[Apollyon]

I just saw an Amazon commercial for the second time. It was for Amazon Health, or whatever they are calling it. They implied a remote visit from a doctor, but I'm guessing a mid-level.

I wonder what they are paying.

 

[WhatJobDoIPick]

I just saw an Amazon commercial for the second time. It was for Amazon Health, or whatever they are calling it. They implied a remote visit from a doctor, but I'm guessing a mid-level.

I wonder what they are paying.

Been hearing these advertisements incessantly on podcasts as well as for the mental health app "Better Help." The plebs love cheam scams.

I'm guessing it's an online NP "seeing" 5 PPH for $20/patient, who will gladly throw you a zpack and steroids for any complaint, but "refer" you to the ED for anything a hair beyond this.

 

[Pudortu]

Been hearing these advertisements incessantly on podcasts as well as for the mental health app "Better Help." The plebs love cheam scams.

I'm guessing it's an online NP "seeing" 5 PPH for $20/patient, who will gladly throw you a zpack and steroids for any complaint, but "refer" you to the ED for anything a hair beyond this.

I actually used their service for a bit. Was with a clinical psychologist with several months, helped me through some issues with work and burnout. His full time job is working at the VA for patients work through PTSd. I recommend their service. It’s a little bit expensive but it’s super convenient.

 

[WhatJobDoIPick]

I actually used their service for a bit. Was with a clinical psychologist with several months, helped me through some issues with work and burnout. His full time job is working at the VA for patients work through PTSd. I recommend their service. It’s a little bit expensive but it’s super convenient.

The issue I've heard with better help is that the process they use to verify credentials is suspect and the professionalism from some of their "providers" is sketchy.

Sounds like you had a good experience though!