Celebrating The 2nd Amendment One Fine Firearm At A Time

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. How about we not roll back regulation for people who have mental illness being able to get guns. Just off the top of my head
This is a common suggestion, and it's terrifying to me. Can you imagine what it would do to mental healthcare in this country if 'mentally ill' people needed to be identified to some sort of government agency for monitoring? If we could take away constitutional rights over a mental health diagnosis?

Do you think it would just affect guns? What about your medical license. Once you're on the Crazy list do you think they will let you work in medicine? What about a driver's license, are you safe with a car if you're not safe with a gun? What about other constitutional rights? Do we really want crazy people voting?

Tight now, the only legal standard for mental illness is 'a danger to yourself or others'. They get to stay inpatient until better. Other than that, mental health is your business and there are no legal consequences for seeking care. The day we change those rules is the last day we have patients who voluntarily seek treatment for mental health problems.

This would not fix the problem, it would make it worse.

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I agree that a crazy person registry, for all the reasons Perrotfish listed, is a bad idea.

Making mental health care available, affordable, and de-stigmatized is probably the right answer. Maybe the best approach to reducing violent crime might be to address the social, economic, and health issues that breed violence and despair. But that’s hard.
 
Please stop the BS that we want to take everyone’s guns.

You might not want to, but lots of people on the gun control side do, and some hold elected office. Look at what’s happened in a California the last couple years. It’s essentially impossible to buy a semi-automatic rifle there now.

Stop telling me it isn’t happening.
 
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This is a common suggestion, and it's terrifying to me. Can you imagine what it would do to mental healthcare in this country if 'mentally ill' people needed to be identified to some sort of government agency for monitoring? If we could take away constitutional rights over a mental health diagnosis?

Do you think it would just affect guns? What about your medical license. Once you're on the Crazy list do you think they will let you work in medicine? What about a driver's license, are you safe with a car if you're not safe with a gun? What about other constitutional rights? Do we really want crazy people voting?

Tight now, the only legal standard for mental illness is 'a danger to yourself or others'. They get to stay inpatient until better. Other than that, mental health is your business and there are no legal consequences for seeking care. The day we change those rules is the last day we have patients who voluntarily seek treatment for mental health problems.

This would not fix the problem, it would make it worse.

I'd like to imagine a place where you can go to church, a music festival, or school and not have to think about the chance of being shot.
 
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I'd like to imagine a place where you can go to church, a music festival, or school and not have to think about the chance of being shot.

It's called Europe. There you only have to worry about getting blown up or run over by a rented commercial truck.
 
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I'd like to imagine a place where you can go to church, a music festival, or school and not have to think about the chance of being shot.
And effectively criminalizing mental health treatment would not solve that problem.

Reforms that actually might be effective:
1) Make mental health care free, universal, and well funded. This is the simplest and least controversial proposal, and it's infuriating that no Republican supports it. Instead they are gutting even the limited mental health funding that still exists.
2) Limit the number or weapons that a gun owner can buy, make them re register them every year, and assess severe penalties for lost or stolen weapons. A huge number of crimes are performed with weapons that made their way from a legal owner to someone who couldn't legally buy that weapon. We could criminalize that much more than we do. The military recognizes that a weapon is a huge responsibility and an unaccounted for weapon is criminally negligent, we can hold civilians to the same standard.
3) Require universal biometric locks on all weapons. As above, but sold as a safety feature rather than as a criminal penalty to make it more palatable.
4) Take the guns away. It won't actually happen in this country, and there are other arguments against it, but there is no question that actually removing the weapons seems to drastically reduce the rate of mass shootings.

Gun control advocates need to focus on the right fights, rather than wasting effort advocating for laws that have been proven to be ineffective (assault weapons bans) or which erode our freedom to no benefit (tying gun ownership to mental health).
 
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Reforms that actually might be effective:
1) Make mental health care free, universal, and well funded. This is the simplest and least controversial proposal, and it's infuriating that no Republican supports it. Instead they are gutting even the limited mental health funding that still exists.

This is good and all but one of the hallmarks of this type of personality disordered mental illness is lack of insight. I guarantee you the shooter did not believe he had a mental health issue and that it was other people who had problems. He’s not the type to seek out mental health care unless it is forced by a court mandate.
 
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It's called Europe. There you only have to worry about getting blown up or run over by a rented commercial truck.

Well then call me Idris Elba (i wish)....

Or Canada? Eh

or Drake...


Because what’s going on here is insanand the fact that many in this country shrug their shoulders at it is even more insane
 
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You might not want to, but lots of people on the gun control side do, and some hold elected office. Look at what’s happened in a California the last couple years. It’s essentially impossible to buy a semi-automatic rifle there now.

Stop telling me it isn’t happening.

IT is happening in a lot of Blue States. Even though I'm a Pro-Gun voter and a Conservative I don't believe that I have a Constitutional Right to own an AR-15. Would I be happy about giving up my rifles and carbines? NO. But, do I have a Constitutional right to own a particular weapon without limits? NO.

Of course, I realize there is rarely a middle ground with most far-left liberals. They will take my ARs then my Carbines then my semi-auto pistols. In the end, they will leave me with a revolver but I won't be allowed to buy bullets for it without a permit.
 
IT is happening in a lot of Blue States. Even though I'm a Pro-Gun voter and a Conservative I don't believe that I have a Constitutional Right to own an AR-15. Would I be happy about giving up my rifles and carbines? NO. But, do I have a Constitutional right to own a particular weapon without limits? NO.

Of course, I realize there is rarely a middle ground with most far-left liberals. They will take my ARs then my Carbines then my semi-auto pistols. In the end, they will leave me with a revolver but I won't be allowed to buy bullets for it without a permit.

Same can be said of far-right conservatives
 
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Now it looks like he indeed was a prohibited person, but the Air Force failed to report his conviction.

The rational response to a failure to apply and enforce existing laws is not to pass more laws.
 
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Now it looks like he indeed was a prohibited person, but the Air Force failed to report his conviction.

The rational response to a failure to apply and enforce existing laws is not to pass more laws.
Doesn't that explain why we have to darn near undress before getting on a plane
 
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Mass shootings, unlike other killings in smaller number, strike fear because they’re harder to understand and we can’t control when or where they occur (the next victim could just as easily be you, me, or worse, our families, as anyone else). They also give a country concern because we come face to face with the fact that our mentally ill slip through the cracks continuously and are allowed to obtain weapons of destruction despite the law saying otherwise (sometimes).

Sure, by the numbers handguns are more dangerous, but really if you avoid Chicago and don’t look for trouble in the bad parts of town in the middle of the night you can probably rest assured you’ll be okay.

When we gave gun control a pass after a crazy lunatic killed his irresponsible mother and 20 six and seven year olds, this country acknowledged that nothing regarding reasonable gun control is possible.

Could you use the Ben Shapiro argument and start with enforcing active laws? Sure. Is that working? Ask the churchgoers from yesterday.

Meanwhile, the right continues to state assault rifles are needed so they can defend themselves against a tyrannical government. Nevermind the fact that when our founding fathers envisioned such a tyrannical government, they certainly couldn’t imagine assault rifles, mass shootings (citizens turning on one another), and the plain, staring-you-in-the-face truth that if and when our government actually does go tyrannical your assault rifle surely won’t save you or anyone around you.

I don’t have any answers for gun control, but I at least acknowledge we should do something. I don’t want to take your guns (elephant in room - the conclusion everyone jumps to), but I promise you, if such an argument ensured my families safety, I’d pick it up pretty quickly.
 
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It’s not just gun murders either. This past Friday I took care of a previously healthy 40yo woman for maxillary sinusotomy. She was shot in the head at a party last year. It was not a life threatening GSW. Still she has chronic sinusitis, chronic CSF leak, lost her right eye and has PTSD. She’s basically f***ed from a random GSW not even intended for her. I’m sure many of the people who survived the church shooting are similarly f***ed.
 
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Mass shootings, unlike other killings in smaller number, strike fear because they’re harder to understand and we can’t control when or where they occur (the next victim could just as easily be you, me, or worse, our families, as anyone else). They also give a country concern because we come face to face with the fact that our mentally ill slip through the cracks continuously and are allowed to obtain weapons of destruction despite the law saying otherwise (sometimes).

Sure, by the numbers handguns are more dangerous, but really if you avoid Chicago and don’t look for trouble in the bad parts of town in the middle of the night you can probably rest assured you’ll be okay.

When we gave gun control a pass after a crazy lunatic killed his irresponsible mother and 20 six and seven year olds, this country acknowledged that nothing regarding reasonable gun control is possible.

Could you use the Ben Shapiro argument and start with enforcing active laws? Sure. Is that working? Ask the churchgoers from yesterday.

Meanwhile, the right continues to state assault rifles are needed so they can defend themselves against a tyrannical government. Nevermind the fact that when our founding fathers envisioned such a tyrannical government, they certainly couldn’t imagine assault rifles, mass shootings (citizens turning on one another), and the plain, staring-you-in-the-face truth that if and when our government actually does go tyrannical your assault rifle surely won’t save you or anyone around you.

I don’t have any answers for gun control, but I at least acknowledge we should do something. I don’t want to take your guns (elephant in room - the conclusion everyone jumps to), but I promise you, if such an argument ensured my families safety, I’d pick it up pretty quickly.
The founding fathers lived in an era of private cannons and warships
 
I'd like to imagine a place where you can go to church, a music festival, or school and not have to think about the chance of being shot.
Call me an idealist, but it would be fantastic if I could go anywhere outside my home without quickly scanning where I would hide my kids if somebody starts shooting at random, for seemingly no reason. Even a decade ago, that statement might have sounded paranoid. But today, that’s rational and completely appropriate, and we’re expected to accept that and behave as though nothing is wrong.
 
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8FE4E308-7CA4-4231-B796-55183F00CC58.jpeg
 
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There is no point banning guns. No point at all. Not at this stage of the game.

If there were never any guns ever, or there were few guns around, restricting them as a public safety measure might work.

But there are undocumented guns freely available, private party sales and gun shows don't need a background check. Parts kits and 80% lowers aren't classified firearms. You need like a drill and 10 minutes and you got a functional firearm with a parts kit and an incomplete lower. Completely undocumented.

That's not a problem either. Because if there were no parts kits and incomplete receivers, getting a gun to do a crime is not difficult in America. Getting a gun is not difficult even if not to do a crime.

I think shall-issue CCW is much better for deterring crime and saving lives than banning guns. You're not getting rid of them.
 
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Call me an idealist, but it would be fantastic if I could go anywhere outside my home without quickly scanning where I would hide my kids if somebody starts shooting at random, for seemingly no reason. Even a decade ago, that statement might have sounded paranoid. But today, that’s rational and completely appropriate, and we’re expected to accept that and behave as though nothing is wrong.
Situational awareness was always a good idea
 
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Mass shootings are pretty bad. Like really bad.

They are featured prominently in the media when they happen and a hysteria develops. They're not actually that common. In a population of over 300 million they're actually really uncommon, just sensationalized.

People say murders out of control or something and that guns are the problem.

America has like a murder rate of 5 per 100thou. Compare to the UK, which is like 1 per 100thousand.

You can state, with accuracy, that America has a murder rate 5 times that of the UK. Or you can say that it's pretty much the same per 100000 people.

One is accurate statistically, one is accurate realistically.

You also aren't factoring in to account population density and other social pressures which lead to social unease.

It's really not that bad.
 
Meanwhile, the right continues to state assault rifles are needed so they can defend themselves against a tyrannical government.

That’s one of many arguments, and it has modern evidence for its truth. You don’t even have to look at successful insurgencies the world over. Look at Egypt, just a few years ago, at the height of the so-called Arab Spring. Long guns are largely illegal in Egypt. Which neighborhoods of anti-government demonstrators were visited in the middle of the night by thugs and agents of the government to get disappeared? The unarmed ones, or the ones hat happened to have a few armed citizens?

Gun control advocates like to construct this bizarre strawman that “the right” is arguing that a person with a tacticool AR15 is going to stand up to tanks and helicopters and somehow stand toe-to-toe with a platoon of Marines with their well-rehearsed fire & maneuver. That’s not the point. The point is that a populace that has a significant percentage of people who are armed cant be intimidated by visits from the secret police.


Nevermind the fact that when our founding fathers envisioned such a tyrannical government, they certainly couldn’t imagine assault rifles,

They certainly couldn’t imagine e-publishing books, Amazon 2-day Prime delivery, the internet, presidents communicating with Twitter at 3 AM, mass produced paperback pulp fiction, movies, satellite phones, or any other staples of modern free speech.

But they did imagine that free communication would always be a key feature of a free society, and of course the 1st Amendment applies to all of those new technologies.

They also imagined that weapons would advance. Technology wasn’t static in the 1700s. Enormous advances in small arms were made. As sb247 noted, they lived in an era of privately owned warships and artillery. And indeed some of the first shots of the Revolutionary war were over the British marching on Concord to confiscate artillery. Of course the 2nd Amendment applies to AR15s.


I don’t want to take your guns (elephant in room - the conclusion everyone jumps to), but I promise you, if such an argument ensured my families safety, I’d pick it up pretty quickly.

You don’t want to take away everyone’s guns, but if someone whispered the right sweet words to you, you would? How can we believe you when you make that promise, when you can’t even finish the same sentence without admitting you’d willingly do it.

And that’s the problem. You get a little anxious about an irrelevant personal risk that is so low as to be lost in the noise, and your first thought is to infringe my rights, put me at risk, and cut away a critical check and balance to government power.

That’s not rational, it’s cowardly. It’s the essence of Franklin’s contemptuous remark about trading essential liberty for temporary safety, and the people who deserve neither.


Some perspective -

70 years ago the world was at war facing an existential threat, and our own government confiscated property and put its own citizens (who were largely unarmed) in concentration camps. Meanwhile the people of England, being loyal subejects of the crown and something a little less than free citizens, who’d voluntarily surrendered personal weapons after WWI, were staring down the barrel of a German invasion.

send-a-gun.jpg


150 years ago we faced another existential threat and fought a civil war over slavery.

Who knows what will happen 70 or 150 years from today? Are you really so eager to trade our descendants’ rights and final defense away, all for the irrational illusion of security from the risk of a mass shooting? A risk of a couple events per year that amount to a 1/2 day’s worth of traffic deaths?

I’m not.
 
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The problem with these debates...as with most in our country... is the most extreme voices end up being the loudest. I also have a problem with the philosophical inconsistencies that arise during these debates. The same conservative groups who tell us we are being too hysterical about these mass shootings are the same ones that want us to be tougher on terrorism. I'm not sure the numbers, but I bet you are much more likely to die in a mass shooting than a "radical Islamic terrorist" attack. Those same groups who say they are defending the second amendment have no problems looking the other way on other Bill of Rights issues in the name of "national security." It could be that our current political system rewards parties that represent "coalitions" of interest groups instead of an actual consistent ideology. However, I find the ideological inconsistencies maddening.

The left wing ideologues who say take away all guns are at a political dead end and the loud right wingers espouse such contradictory ideas that I can't take them seriously. In the end we are left with a whole lot of yelling and no further progress on how to solve the problem. The Facebook tributes with pictures ribbons and calls to prayer will slowly fade until the next mass shooting. It's like our country is going through reverse evolution...instead of objectively trying to solve a problem with data and science, we resort to praying.
 
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deny it all you want....but we just had 3 events over the past three months which basically prove this post
2A folks generally don't want anyone messing with their guns regardless of who did the last shooting
The problem with these debates...as with most in our country... is the most extreme voices end up being the loudest. I also have a problem with the philosophical inconsistencies that arise during these debates. The same conservative groups who tell us we are being too hysterical about these mass shootings are the same ones that want us to be tougher on terrorism. I'm not sure the numbers, but I bet you are much more likely to die in a mass shooting than a "radical Islamic terrorist" attack. Those same groups who say they are defending the second amendment have no problems looking the other way on other Bill of Rights issues in the name of "national security." It could be that our current political system rewards parties that represent "coalitions" of interest groups instead of an actual consistent ideology. However, I find the ideological inconsistencies maddening.

The left wing ideologues who say take away all guns are at a political dead end and the loud right wingers espouse such contradictory ideas that I can't take them seriously. In the end we are left with a whole lot of yelling and no further progress on how to solve the problem. The Facebook tributes with pictures ribbons and calls to prayer will slowly fade until the next mass shooting. It's like our country is going through reverse evolution...instead of objectively trying to solve a problem with data and science, we resort to praying.
what bill of rights issues do you propose the 2A crowd has been backtracking on?
 
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The problem with these debates...as with most in our country... is the most extreme voices end up being the loudest. I also have a problem with the philosophical inconsistencies that arise during these debates. The same conservative groups who tell us we are being too hysterical about these mass shootings are the same ones that want us to be tougher on terrorism. I'm not sure the numbers, but I bet you are much more likely to die in a mass shooting than a "radical Islamic terrorist" attack. Those same groups who say they are defending the second amendment have no problems looking the other way on other Bill of Rights issues in the name of "national security." It could be that our current political system rewards parties that represent "coalitions" of interest groups instead of an actual consistent ideology. However, I find the ideological inconsistencies maddening.

The left wing ideologues who say take away all guns are at a political dead end and the loud right wingers espouse such contradictory ideas that I can't take them seriously. In the end we are left with a whole lot of yelling and no further progress on how to solve the problem. The Facebook tributes with pictures ribbons and calls to prayer will slowly fade until the next mass shooting. It's like our country is going through reverse evolution...instead of objectively trying to solve a problem with data and science, we resort to praying.
2A folks generally don't want anyone messing with their guns regardless of who did the last shooting

what bill of rights issues do you propose the 2A crowd has been backtracking on?

oh really......where was the NRA when Philando Castillle was shot for being a legal gun owner?
 
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oh really......where was the NRA when Philando Castillle was shot for being a legal gun owner?
philando wasn't shot for being a legal gun owner, philando was a legal gun owner who was shot because after being told (per the officer's story) not to reach for his gun he reached down to where his hand was reaching for something the cop thought was a gun.

I've been pulled over while carrying, I've been patted down entering govt buildings while carrying, I've been on crime scenes while carrying. I totally get that it can be nerve wracking. I totally get that some cops are more twitchy than others. I didn't see the guys hands from the dashcam so I don't know if the cop was right or wrong. I can say that when I was pulled over, my interior lights were all turned on, all driver side windows were down and my license, registration and carry permit were in my hands on the top of the steering wheel before the cop was out his car.
 
my final post of this thread
Cmw_UybXEAIhYof.jpg


a picture is worth a thousand words
 
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That’s one of many arguments, and it has modern evidence for its truth. You don’t even have to look at successful insurgencies the world over. Look at Egypt, just a few years ago, at the height of the so-called Arab Spring. Long guns are largely illegal in Egypt. Which neighborhoods of anti-government demonstrators were visited in the middle of the night by thugs and agents of the government to get disappeared? The unarmed ones, or the ones hat happened to have a few armed citizens?

Gun control advocates like to construct this bizarre strawman that “the right” is arguing that a person with a tacticool AR15 is going to stand up to tanks and helicopters and somehow stand toe-to-toe with a platoon of Marines with their well-rehearsed fire & maneuver. That’s not the point. The point is that a populace that has a significant percentage of people who are armed cant be intimidated by visits from the secret police.




They certainly couldn’t imagine e-publishing books, Amazon 2-day Prime delivery, the internet, presidents communicating with Twitter at 3 AM, mass produced paperback pulp fiction, movies, satellite phones, or any other staples of modern free speech.

But they did imagine that free communication would always be a key feature of a free society, and of course the 1st Amendment applies to all of those new technologies.

They also imagined that weapons would advance. Technology wasn’t static in the 1700s. Enormous advances in small arms were made. As sb247 noted, they lived in an era of privately owned warships and artillery. And indeed some of the first shots of the Revolutionary war were over the British marching on Concord to confiscate artillery. Of course the 2nd Amendment applies to AR15s.




You don’t want to take away everyone’s guns, but if someone whispered the right sweet words to you, you would? How can we believe you when you make that promise, when you can’t even finish the same sentence without admitting you’d willingly do it.

And that’s the problem. You get a little anxious about an irrelevant personal risk that is so low as to be lost in the noise, and your first thought is to infringe my rights, put me at risk, and cut away a critical check and balance to government power.

That’s not rational, it’s cowardly. It’s the essence of Franklin’s contemptuous remark about trading essential liberty for temporary safety, and the people who deserve neither.


Some perspective -

70 years ago the world was at war facing an existential threat, and our own government confiscated property and put its own citizens (who were largely unarmed) in concentration camps. Meanwhile the people of England, being loyal subejects of the crown and something a little less than free citizens, who’d voluntarily surrendered personal weapons after WWI, were staring down the barrel of a German invasion.

send-a-gun.jpg


150 years ago we faced another existential threat and fought a civil war over slavery.

Who knows what will happen 70 or 150 years from today? Are you really so eager to trade our descendants’ rights and final defense away, all for the irrational illusion of security from the risk of a mass shooting? A risk of a couple events per year that amount to a 1/2 day’s worth of traffic deaths?

I’m not.


By this line of reasoning, 9/11 was no big deal. Our risk of getting killed by Islamic terrorists is minuscule. Why did we give up so many liberties and make such a big fuss about it?
 
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By this line of reasoning, 9/11 was no big deal. Our risk of getting killed by Islamic terrorists is minuscule. Why did we give up so many liberties and make such a big fuss about it.
I think you'll find that a large number of gun owners do think the Patriot Act and subsequent surveillance programs were a massive overreaction.
 
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By this line of reasoning, 9/11 was no big deal. Our risk of getting killed by Islamic terrorists is minuscule. Why did we give up so many liberties and make such a big fuss about it?

Well, any attack on the nation launched by a foreign, state-supported organization deserves an aggressive response, whether or not it causes damage.

But most of us do agree that the endless parade of surveillance laws, privacy compromises, TSA security theater, and other infringements on liberty that followed 9/11 were stupid, cowardly, counterproductive, and just un-American at their core.

The same bad decisions, bad leadership, opportunistic oppression, and cynical manipulation of fear and hysteria that gave us the Patriot Act shouldn’t be employed to give us gun control.


Hating the Patriot Act is a pretty widely held bipartisan sentiment. And yet, it’s still there. Our elected Republicans and Democrats seem to be equal opportunity handwringers eager to trade essential freedom for temporary security to win the soccer mom vote. And neither side ever surrenders a bit of government power.

I think Libertarians get it right on most of these issues: individual freedom is among the highest priorities, while the risk associated with that freedom is accepted and not exaggerated. It’s too bad our party is full of anarchists, amateurs, and crackpots.
 
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my final post of this thread
Cmw_UybXEAIhYof.jpg


a picture is worth a thousand words

Don’t go

That dude is not dead?

Neither is this guy:

image


Law enforcement sure isn’t color blind. Aggressive behavior from white militias is tolerated in a way aggressive behavior from minorities isn’t. Can you imagine a Hispanic gang staging an armed takeover of a wildlife refuge and not getting SWAT’d out in a hurry?

That failure isn’t an argument for gun control, though.
 
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Don’t go



Neither is this guy:

image


Law enforcement sure isn’t color blind. Aggressive behavior from white militias is tolerated in a way aggressive behavior from minorities isn’t. Can you imagine a Hispanic gang staging an armed takeover of a wildlife refuge and not getting SWAT’d out in a hurry?

That failure isn’t an argument for gun control, though.
seems like you forgot ruby ridge and waco.....
 
I'm a REASONABLE Gun owner. I respect PGG's right to own an AR15 or even a 50 caliber long range rifle but we disagree that State and local governments can't regulate those types of firearms.

I mean who really needs a "bump stock" or a 100 round magazine for their assault rifle? I certainly don't want to give up my AR15s or carbines but I wouldn't leave the country if forced to do so. That said, I support reasonable gun legislation and maybe, just maybe, it shouldn't be so easy to walk into a gun store and buy a weapon which can kill 50 people in under 10 minutes.

I'm a fiscal conservative and supporter of the second amendment who believes in reasonable restrictions on certain types of guns. I guess this means my NRA rating would be pretty low.
 
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"Now, just weeks after the Vegas attack, America’s most deadly mass shooting, another one claimed two dozen lives at a Texas church. The shooter, Devin Kelley, an Air Force veteran discharged for domestic violence, dressed in military-style gear and used a semi-automatic rifle to shoot up the congregation.

The weapons used in all of these attacks served their intent: to kill as many people as possible in a short amount of time with a massive amounts of bullets. What happened regularly in Baghdad is now a regular occurrence on Main Street.

This is not a comment on the Second Amendment. Clearly, the founders of our country gave civilians the right to bear arms. I don’t advocate a gun-free society. I live in Montana, where my views will ostracize me, but I also own a bolt-action rifle for deer and elk season and a shotgun for bird season. I do not carry these weapons around every day because they are tools for a specific purpose—hunting. Yes, there are firearms ideally suited to home defense, but an assault rifle is not one of them."

Josh Manning was an enlisted intelligence analyst in the U.S. Army from 2002 through 2009. He deployed to Iraq twice. He now lives in Montana and is a civil rights investigator for the state.

I was in the military and support gun rights, but semi-automatic weapons should be banned | Opinion
 
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Gun control advocates like to construct this bizarre strawman that “the right” is arguing that a person with a tacticool AR15 is going to stand up to tanks and helicopters and somehow stand toe-to-toe with a platoon of Marines with their well-rehearsed fire & maneuver. That’s not the point. The point is that a populace that has a significant percentage of people who are armed cant be intimidated by visits from the secret police.

I don’t find the strawman created by gun control advocates any different than the strawman created by the other side, which is that assault rifles are needed to protect against a tyrannical government. Note that I’m not saying you shouldn’t own a tank, I just can’t fathom why you care so much about a weapon that some mentally deranged people use to kill innocents, when there are so many other weapons to choose from.

Just curious, what weapon should be beyond the purview of ownership by citizens, keeping the 2nd amendment in mind? Is there anything we shouldn’t be allowed to protect ourselves with when the government starts it’s door to door searches?


pgg said:
You don’t want to take away everyone’s guns, but if someone whispered the right sweet words to you, you would? How can we believe you when you make that promise, when you can’t even finish the same sentence without admitting you’d willingly do it.

Truthfully, I find the entire argument tired and completely fruitless. You believe what you believe, and I believe what I believe, and literally nothing will change that.

I’d love to believe that we could abide by the 2nd amendment. However, I see the breakdown socially of our moral fabric, reflected in mass killings and abuse of privilege. Do I believe you’re a danger ? Absolutely not. Can you assure me of who is? No. Does that mean we should level the playing field? That’s your argument right - that everyone should walk around with assault rifles to assure this doesn’t happen anymore. I honestly don’t have the answer, which I’ve already said, but I know that’s not realistic.

Also, you keep mentioning (in defense of ARs) number of deaths due to mass killings are a ‘blip on the radar’. Just curious, since you keep mentioning it, at what number will it no longer be a curiosity and a cause for concern? I think we both know the answer to the that question.
 
Some data against the “good guy with a gun” argument:

The Good Guy with a Gun Theory, Debunked

I believe the 2nd Amendment gives me the lawful right to own and carry a gun. I have a Concealed Carry Permit. Unless you change the constitution the founders gave me the second amendment as my only necessary argument to own and carry a gun. Reasonable gun laws should not allow only the rich and powerful to own and carry a gun like in NYC. Any citizen of NYC should be afforded the same rights and privileges as the Elite; unfortunately, that is not the case so only three groups of people carry guns in NYC:

1. Law Enforcement

2. Elite/Rich or their security guards

3. Criminals

Hence, I find cities like NYC violate the spirit, if the not the very intent, of the second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Because these "unconstitutional" laws exist reasonable gun owners across the USA don't trust liberal politicians on this issue. If I have to choose between "assault weapons as legal" or the liberal point of view on guns I know how I'd vote every single time.
 
I believe the 2nd Amendment gives me the lawful right to own and carry a gun. I have a Concealed Carry Permit. Unless you change the constitution the founders gave me the second amendment as my only necessary argument to own and carry a gun. Reasonable gun laws should not allow only the rich and powerful to own and carry a gun like in NYC. Any citizen of NYC should be afforded the same rights and privileges as the Elite; unfortunately, that is not the case so only three groups of people carry guns in NYC:

1. Law Enforcement

2. Elite/Rich or their security guards

3. Criminals

Hence, I find cities like NYC violate the spirit, if the not the very intent, of the second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.


I think we all understand the principled arguments for gun rights but it leaves in its wake the reality of death, maiming and suffering of innocents.
 
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