MD Cheating allegations engulf Dartmouth medical school

[Gilakend]

Story made front page of CNN. Did not realize this was known nationally by non medical people.

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[Darrow O'Lykos]

How do dartmouth med school applicants react?

Double down with LOIs and beg for admission.

 

[deleted1054719]

Story made front page of CNN. Did not realize this was known nationally by non medical people.

The Ivy League name probably makes it more interesting. The fact that this is going onto so many major outlets is going to put quite a bit of pressure onto Dartmouth's university level leadership

 

[Lawpy]

Why are we firing IT for being idiots when they were explicitly asked by the deans to do something out of their realm of expertise?? What would you do if you asked do do something challenging, quit on the spot? Educational tech and maintenance =/= cybersecurity.


Blame Duane Compton et al, the ones who decided to start this mission and act on this data, not somebody with an associate or bachelor's in IT management/Ed tech

Fire both is my suggestion

 

[Lawpy]

People reading this thread need to realize they can always hurt you more. Take your win and realize there's a long ways left to go before you're done with training. Before you're board eligible you're completely at the mercy of the system.

That allows sadistic, malicious administrators and deans to continue carrying out their brutal, corrupt crackdown on med students and trainees for effectively anything. Clearly there are limitations to their power as Dartmouth scandal has shown

 

[Med Ed]

The deans jumped to drastic, career affecting conclusions based on incorrect information and assumptions. The IT guys being fired for being incompetent idiots is guaranteed but the deans made a hasty decision and gave their school a very bad look. They should also be fired and replaced.

I would love it if someone could get their hands on the Dartmouth Student Policy Handbook. It's password protected (and I'm not at Dartmouth).

The handbook will describe in detail who is officially responsible for this mess. The major deans are typically insulated from these proceedings, and this is an excellent illustration of why that is. The dean and/or academic affairs dean are frequently involved in appeals, particularly of dismissals, but often the only dean directly involved in the conduct committee (or whatever) is the student affairs dean, who usually acts as a student advocate. It would be interesting to see how Dartmouth actually structures its process.

If I were an accused student I would probably bypass suing the school and instead file a large civil suit against Canvas. One of the more curious things about this whole situation is that Canvas is used by thousands, if not millions, of students worldwide, but of all places the blowup occurred at an Ivy League medical school in Lebanon, NH.

 

[deleted1103055]

The Ivy League name probably makes it more interesting.

i did not know Darmouth’s medical school was named after Dr Seuss.

Geisel Name Will Stay on Dartmouth's Medical School

The medical school at Dartmouth College will continue to be called the Geisel School of Medicine, despite a recent controversy over the works of Dr. Seuss, the pen name of Theodor Geisel. The school is named for Geisel and his wife, Audrey.

www.insidehighered.com

 

[Med Ed]

i did not know Darmouth’s medical school was named after Dr Seuss.

First he's getting cancelled, and now this...

 

[Lawpy]

I would love it if someone could get their hands on the Dartmouth Student Policy Handbook. It's password protected (and I'm not at Dartmouth).

The handbook will describe in detail who is officially responsible for this mess. The major deans are typically insulated from these proceedings, and this is an excellent illustration of why that is. The dean and/or academic affairs dean are frequently involved in appeals, particularly of dismissals, but often the only dean directly involved in the conduct committee (or whatever) is the student affairs dean, who usually acts as a student advocate. It would be interesting to see how Dartmouth actually structures its process.

If I were an accused student I would probably bypass suing the school and instead file a large civil suit against Canvas. One of the more curious things about this whole situation is that Canvas is used by thousands, if not millions, of students worldwide, but of all places the blowup occurred at an Ivy League medical school in Lebanon, NH.

Isn't that the fault of the IT for not knowing how Canvas works?

Agreed the student handbook would be useful. I don't have it either

 

[Med Ed]

Isn't that the fault of the IT for not knowing how Canvas works?

Agreed the student handbook would be useful. I don't have it either

When I first heard about all this I thought it would be a routine remote cheating situation, just on a larger scale. Traditionally it isn't actually that difficult to see that Jimmy downloaded the cardiovascular physiology slides while taking the cardiovascular physiology test.

After digging in a bit further, however, I cam across the more recently invented Canvas activity log, which appears to play a key role in this disaster. I think a plaintiff and an aggressive attorney could make a very good case that the activity log was ill conceived and ripe for misapplication.

 

[buffalo bill]

I would love it if someone could get their hands on the Dartmouth Student Policy Handbook. It's password protected (and I'm not at Dartmouth).

The handbook will describe in detail who is officially responsible for this mess. The major deans are typically insulated from these proceedings, and this is an excellent illustration of why that is. The dean and/or academic affairs dean are frequently involved in appeals, particularly of dismissals, but often the only dean directly involved in the conduct committee (or whatever) is the student affairs dean, who usually acts as a student advocate. It would be interesting to see how Dartmouth actually structures its process.

If I were an accused student I would probably bypass suing the school and instead file a large civil suit against Canvas. One of the more curious things about this whole situation is that Canvas is used by thousands, if not millions, of students worldwide, but of all places the blowup occurred at an Ivy League medical school in Lebanon, NH.

I don't have the handbook, however I can attest that even as late as May, most associate Deans were not fully aware of what exactly happened (and this took place in March). From the students I have been in contact with, I discerned that most of the faculty and even a large part of the admin were on their side in this whole fiasco.

What I think happened is that one assoc dean went on the warpath, and by the time his actions were discovered, it was too late and s**t had fully coated the fan. I know the Dean himself had to go before the boards of the medical college and the university and explain wtf was going on.

 

[Lawpy]

Wait if the students are falsely accused of cheating and got their charges dismissed, are they still in the running for AOA, or are their chances zero because the admin hates them?

 

[altblue]

Wait if the students are falsely accused of cheating and got their charges dismissed, are they still in the running for AOA, or are their chances zero because the admin hates them?

Probably the last thing on those students' minds rn

 

[DoctwoB]

I would love it if someone could get their hands on the Dartmouth Student Policy Handbook. It's password protected (and I'm not at Dartmouth).

The handbook will describe in detail who is officially responsible for this mess. The major deans are typically insulated from these proceedings, and this is an excellent illustration of why that is. The dean and/or academic affairs dean are frequently involved in appeals, particularly of dismissals, but often the only dean directly involved in the conduct committee (or whatever) is the student affairs dean, who usually acts as a student advocate. It would be interesting to see how Dartmouth actually structures its process.

If I were an accused student I would probably bypass suing the school and instead file a large civil suit against Canvas. One of the more curious things about this whole situation is that Canvas is used by thousands, if not millions, of students worldwide, but of all places the blowup occurred at an Ivy League medical school in Lebanon, NH.

I doubt there is a case against Canvas. Canvas doesn’t promote their software as a cheating prevention/detection tool. The monitoring/logging of activity is surely in the EULA. Dartmouth went off label in how it is applied. It would be like suing a car manufacturer that your car didn’t work as a submarine.

 

[Med Ed]

I doubt there is a case against Canvas. Canvas doesn’t promote their software as a cheating prevention/detection tool. The monitoring/logging of activity is surely in the EULA. Dartmouth went off label in how it is applied. It would be like suing a car manufacturer that your car didn’t work as a submarine.

Settled out of court.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The deans jumped to drastic, career affecting conclusions based on incorrect information and assumptions. The IT guys being fired for being incompetent idiots is guaranteed but the deans made a hasty decision and gave their school a very bad look. They should also be fired and replaced.

I mean yeah, but it’s not like they knew the information was incorrect. They were relying on their subject matter experts to provide the right information. You think the dean knows more about IT than the IT department? Now if the IT department said oh **** we ****ed up, and the deans said keep it quiet so we don’t look bad, that’s a different story. Otherwise I’m not sure how else you expect them to respond other than canceling the penalties and apologizing.

 

[Lawpy]

I mean yeah, but it’s not like they knew the information was incorrect. They were relying on their subject matter experts to provide the right information. You think the dean knows more about IT than the IT department? Now if the IT department said oh **** we ****ed up, and the deans said keep it quiet so we don’t look bad, that’s a different story. Otherwise I’m not sure how else you expect them to respond other than canceling the penalties and apologizing.

I definitely believe the deans should be at least aware of the technology that's been used for over a year throughout the pandemic. The IT guys should be fired for being idiots in the first place but an apology isn't enough for what appears to be a dramatic authoritarian crackdown from the deans.

Even one of the associate deans was said to be going on a warpath. Dartmouth legit looks like a dictatorship and a lot of heads from admins must roll for this disaster

 

[Splenda88]

Dartmouth med school drops cheating charges against students

Dartmouth's medical school dismissed charges against students accused of cheating by accessing online course materials while taking closed-book exams remotely, the dean said in an email to the school community. A Geisel School of Medicine committee recommended in April that three students be...

www.yahoo.com

 

[Med Ed]

I definitely believe the deans should be at least aware of the technology that's been used for over a year throughout the pandemic. The IT guys should be fired for being idiots in the first place but an apology isn't enough for what appears to be a dramatic authoritarian crackdown from the deans.

Even one of the associate deans was said to be going on a warpath. Dartmouth legit looks like a dictatorship and a lot of heads from admins must roll for this disaster

That's right.

Find Eleazar Wheelock's descendants and sue them.

Then sue God.

Heads must roll.

 

[Lawpy]

That's right.

Find Eleazar Wheelock's descendants and sue them.

Then sue God.

Heads must roll.

Ok that was good lol

 

[Med Ed]

Ok that was good lol

Seriously though, the adage "two wrongs don't make a right" is apt here.

It appears that Dartmouth got itself into trouble by overreacting to bad/partial information. Another overreaction isn't going to fix the problem. Hopefully someone with authority and a cool head will take a look at the situation and determine who screwed up, how badly they screwed up, and why they screwed up. Then a corrective process can be thoughtfully devised an implemented. I imagine some people will get axed before it's all over, but we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Lawpy]

Seriously though, the adage "two wrongs don't make a right" is apt here.

It appears that Dartmouth got itself into trouble by overreacting to bad/partial information. Another overreaction isn't going to fix the problem. Hopefully someone with authority and a cool head will take a look at the situation and determine who screwed up, how badly they screwed up, and why they screwed up. Then a corrective process can be thoughtfully devised an implemented. I imagine some people will get axed before it's all over, but we'll have to wait and see.

While this is true, isn't the job of the deans to ensure their school doesn't get a bad image? They failed on that step by overreacting and got humiliated by the media. This is worsened by the fact that they effectively destroyed all trust they had with students.

A change in leadership will help all parties move on for the better

 

[Med Ed]

While this is true, isn't the job of the deans to ensure their school doesn't get a bad image? They failed on that step by overreacting and got humiliated by the media. This is worsened by the fact that they effectively destroyed all trust they had with students.

A change in leadership will help all parties move on for the better

It's true that the buck usually stops at the top, but without knowing the players, the process, and how things went awry, it's impossible to differentiate baby from bathwater.

Besides, and indiscriminate purge isn't a great recruiting tool for the next bunch of leaders. Sort of like performing vasectomies with garden shears.

 

[Lawpy]

It's true that the buck usually stops at the top, but without knowing the players, the process, and how things went awry, it's impossible to differentiate baby from bathwater.

Besides, and indiscriminate purge isn't a great recruiting tool for the next bunch of leaders. Sort of like performing vasectomies with garden shears.

Thanks for the nightmare

But thanks, this makes sense

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Sort of like performing vasectomies with garden shears.

Definitely permanent and effective.

 

[Lawpy]

Definitely permanent and effective.

M935 pls

 

[Hopeful101]

Seriously though, the adage "two wrongs don't make a right" is apt here.

It appears that Dartmouth got itself into trouble by overreacting to bad/partial information. Another overreaction isn't going to fix the problem. Hopefully someone with authority and a cool head will take a look at the situation and determine who screwed up, how badly they screwed up, and why they screwed up. Then a corrective process can be thoughtfully devised an implemented. I imagine some people will get axed before it's all over, but we'll have to wait and see.

I don't buy that. They tried to ruin several peoples lives for what turned out to be no reason. Losing their jobs after that is the minimum consequence that should happen. They'll find another job, hopefully at a lesser position, and ideally learn not to aggressively over react again. That is so much less than they were going to do to their students who had spent years of hard work to earn IV league scores and positions.

 

[Med Ed]

I don't buy that. They tried to ruin several peoples lives for what turned out to be no reason. Losing their jobs after that is the minimum consequence that should happen. They'll find another job, hopefully at a lesser position, and ideally learn not to aggressively over react again. That is so much less than they were going to do to their students who had spent years of hard work to earn IV league scores and positions.

Define "they."

Edit: Dartmouth has the following senior positions in medical education:

• Interim senior associate dean for medical education
• Associate dean for clinical education
• Associate dean for student affairs
• Associate dean for preclinical education
• Associate dean for biomedical science integration

The Committee on Student Performance and Conduct has 11 faculty (8 physicians, 2 PhDs, 1 MSW) and 2 students.

 

[Lawpy]

Define "they."

Edit: Dartmouth has the following senior positions in medical education:

• Interim senior associate dean for medical education
• Associate dean for clinical education
• Associate dean for student affairs
• Associate dean for preclinical education
• Associate dean for biomedical science integration

The Committee on Student Performance and Conduct has 11 faculty (8 physicians, 2 PhDs, 1 MSW) and 2 students.

Thoughts on this?

Sonia Nagy Chimienti, MD, Named Senior Associate Dean for Medical Education

Sonia Nagy Chimienti, MD, has been named the new Senior Associate Dean for Medical Education for Dartmouth’s Geisel School of Medicine. She is a specialist in infectious disease who is curren…

geiselmed.dartmouth.edu

Is it related to the scandal?

 

[Med Ed]

Is it related to the scandal?

Doubtful. Dartmouth was advertising for this long before the scandal happened.

Of course, if Dr. Chimienti wishes to clean house upon her arrival, she will have excellent political cover to do so.

 

[Hopeful101]

Define "they."

Edit: Dartmouth has the following senior positions in medical education:

• Interim senior associate dean for medical education
• Associate dean for clinical education
• Associate dean for student affairs
• Associate dean for preclinical education
• Associate dean for biomedical science integration

The Committee on Student Performance and Conduct has 11 faculty (8 physicians, 2 PhDs, 1 MSW) and 2 students.

Pursue everyone? Choose at random? Or maybe fire everyone who gets scared and apologizes at the promise of leniency? Either option would be equivalent to what they did. They didn't care that there were over a dozen people involved. That some of them had made a mistake. Or that most to all of them did nothing wrong at all.

No one had any desire to sweep it under the rug and tell everyone that canvas can see what they're doing and that ongoing they would pursue all flagged events. Or to do a lockdown browser/proctoring to remove the temptation from people who otherwise would not have cheated. Instead they aggressively pursued their students, and turned out to be wrong. Now that they're wrong I'm willing to bet they're trying to sweep it under the rug so that none of their 'heads roll.' They didn't have any sense of compassion when they had the chance to show it, so they deserve all the consequences they could get. But of course they won't because that's not how the world works. But you guys should atleast be able to see the hypocrisy of it instead of defending these clowns.

 

[Fano]

Define "they."

Edit: Dartmouth has the following senior positions in medical education:

• Interim senior associate dean for medical education
• Associate dean for clinical education
• Associate dean for student affairs
• Associate dean for preclinical education
• Associate dean for biomedical science integration

The Committee on Student Performance and Conduct has 11 faculty (8 physicians, 2 PhDs, 1 MSW) and 2 students.

Since this is just a forum and not a court of law, I'm sure the poster's use of "they" was simply meant to mean whoever was responsible.

In any case, from what was reported, Geisel’s Committee on Student Performance and Conduct asked the school’s technology staff to audit Canvas activity. They did this without knowing if Canvas was a reliable tool for tracking. This shows extremely poor judgment & decision-making. I sure hope Geisel doesn’t teach med students to use equipment, tools or procedures on patients without knowing their applicability or reliability.

Sean McNamara, Dartmouth’s senior director of information security, stated, “You see that pattern of essentially a human reading the content and selecting where they’re going on the page. The data is very clear in describing that behavior.” Again, he doesn't know the reliability of the technology. He apparently didn't bother to contact the Canvas developer or even read the f-ing manual. The Canvas Instructor Guide states, "Quiz logs are not intended to validate academic integrity or identify cheating for a quiz." (Yes, I know they likely used the activity log feature, but it's very reasonable to assume the same warning applies.)

So if the preceding is correct, then I think we have a pretty good idea who "they" are. I'm not sure if all of them should be fired but certainly, at the very least, the CSPC needs new members and IT needs a new director of information security.

 

[Lawpy]

We need to hold the administration accountable for this disaster