choosing b/w and MD and DO

[Daydreamer2008]

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Ok I know this topic has been beaten to DEATH! But I have a unique situation. So far, I'm accepted to an MD school on the east coast and a DO here on the west coast. My boyfriend of 2 years (we WILL get married but not sure when) has to stay here in Cali b/c of his career in the film industry. I know deep down that I've always wanted my MD and that there is more opportunity with the degree in terms of residency. I also want to conduct clinical trials once I am a physician so an MD would be more beneficial for me. But I'm torn too b/c I want to stay here and be near everyone I care about. I also can move in with my boyfriend if I stay here and get my DO. Has anyone gone through such a decision? If it came down to these two schools, I'm just still not sure what I would do...and decision making time is about 3 months away.....One of my friends who is an orthopedic surgeon tells me that I should absolutely get my MD degree because MD's are more respected (he flat out told me that) which I guess may be true in surgery. But another friend of mine who is a surgery resident told me that she met a DO pulmonologist and he was even more intelligent and articulate than many MD's she's met....anyways just trying to see if anyone had to make this choice...??

 

[armybound]

This decision needs to come from a long, thoughtful conversation with your boyfriend, not with a bunch of pre-meds who think the world revolves around how highly ranked your future school is.

 

[NewmansOwn]

DOs can certainly be more intelligent and articulate than MDs -- no question about that. But the surgeon is right. Almost without exception, MDs are respected far more than DOs -- many people see DOs as wannabe MDs who couldn't hack it, whether that's true or not...

Unless you are 100% postive this guy is the love of your life, go to the MD school. 2 years isn't a long time, and I know, personally, I would never cripple my career (especially as a budding researcher) by going to a DO school over an MD school. Think about if you guys break up in a year or two -- holy **** that would suck. You'll spend the rest of your life bitter about not getting an arguably superior education and degree.

Anyway, good luck!

 

[zackscoot]

The funny thing is, why did you apply to a east coast schools in the first place if you didn't want to go there when you get in????? Answer this question, and your path is clear.

 

[JackDanielMD]

DOs can certainly be more intelligent and articulate than MDs -- no question about that. But the surgeon is right. Almost without exception, MDs are respected far more than DOs -- many people see DOs as wannabe MDs who couldn't hack it, whether that's true or not...

Unless you are 100% postive this guy is the love of your life, go to the MD school. 2 years isn't a long time, and I know, personally, I would never cripple my career (especially as a budding researcher) by going to a DO school over an MD school. Think about if you guys break up in a year or two -- holy **** that would suck. You'll spend the rest of your life bitter about not getting an arguably superior education and degree.

Anyway, good luck!

Let me get a few things off of my chest:

1) This guy is a an idiot
2) In America MD = DO
3) The only people who don't respect DOs as much as MDs are premeds and old/crusty MDs
4)You wouldn't cripple your career by going DO
5) If you want to do research, you'll probably want to go to a research oriented school, is the MD school you were accepted to research oriented?
6) The degree is not arguably superior, its the same
7) You have to make a choice, what is more important to you? Is the MD worth the long distance relationship, which probably will result in failure. If you stay in Cali, is there a REAL possibility that you will get married. Do you want to sacrifice an important aspect of your personal life for your career? What will make you happiest?
8) I like lists
9) This guy is an idiot
10) I also like personal attacks, its worth the notice

 

[armybound]

We all know how MD/DO threads get. Please keep the conversation productive and friendly.

 

[Jolie South]

research your options. talk with some DO surgeons that have done what you're looking to do. they will be able to tell you about the challenges that you might face, and then you can assess whether or not you're willing to go DO.

if your only concern is that you won't be "respected" by MDs, that's not a very good reason to be so stressed about it.

again, get informed and talk with your SO.

 

[paranoid_eyes]

2) In America MD = DO

then why is it so much harder to get into an MD program?

 

[Jolie South]

then why is it so much harder to get into an MD program?

do we really need to go there?

you're inciting a flame war. 👎

 

[gasapple]

Agree 100%

BTW - my D.O. Attending gave one allo resident a wedgie yesterday and I got to help give the other a swirley in the doc's lounge restroom. It was an awesome experience...

Let me get a few things off of my chest:

1) This guy is a an idiot
2) In America MD = DO
3) The only people who don't respect DOs as much as MDs are premeds and old/crusty MDs
4)You wouldn't cripple your career by going DO
5) If you want to do research, you'll probably want to go to a research oriented school, is the MD school you were accepted to research oriented?
6) The degree is not arguably superior, its the same
7) You have to make a choice, what is more important to you? Is the MD worth the long distance relationship, which probably will result in failure. If you stay in Cali, is there a REAL possibility that you will get married. Do you want to sacrifice an important aspect of your personal life for your career? What will make you happiest?
8) I like lists
9) This guy is an idiot
10) I also like personal attacks, its worth the notice

 

[dd128]

DOs can certainly be more intelligent and articulate than MDs -- no question about that. But the surgeon is right. Almost without exception, MDs are respected far more than DOs -- many people see DOs as wannabe MDs who couldn't hack it, whether that's true or not...

Unless you are 100% postive this guy is the love of your life, go to the MD school. 2 years isn't a long time, and I know, personally, I would never cripple my career (especially as a budding researcher) by going to a DO school over a MD school. Think about if you guys break up in a year or two -- holy **** that would suck. You'll spend the rest of your life bitter about not getting an arguably superior education and degree.

Anyway, good luck!

Wow, that's pretty harsh. So apparently DOs are less respected, and their education is inferior to that of MDs? The DOs who do better on their USMLE would probably beg to differ. I really hope that if you end up becoming a MD you don't treat DOs working with you with such a lack of respect. I'm curious as to who these "people" are who see DOs as wanna be MDs also. I think they're called ill informed premeds...

 

[Daydreamer2008]

The funny thing is, why did you apply to a east coast schools in the first place if you didn't want to go there when you get in????? Answer this question, and your path is clear.

well I knew this was probably my last chance to get into med school (i'm 26 now and have applied once before) and wanted to keep my options open cuz you never know what may happen.....so here I am😉

 

[gmard33]

If you really want an MD degree then you should go to an allopathic school of medicine. If you and your man are meant to be together, then 2 years (of which you'll have very little time to see him) shouldn't make a difference in your relationship.

You don't want to regret an important career decision.

 

[gasapple]

I really hope that if you end up becoming a MD you don't treat DOs working with you with such a lack of respect. I'm curious as to who these "people" are who see DOs as wanna be MDs also. I think they're called ill informed premeds...

We'll be there waiting to school them when they naively rotate through. Surely there'll be an abundance of reality wedgies to go 'round. It'll be time for a ride on the ownage train. All aboard! T-o-o-ot t-o-o-t!

 

[armybound]

so is he really in the film industry or is he one of those waiters who thinks he's the next big actor just waiting to get discovered?

 

[lacesoutdan]

This guy is a an idiot

Sounds like an MD would help the OP's career more than a DO considering her stated career goals. Pointing this out doesn't make you an idiot.

 

[paranoid_eyes]

Wow, that's pretty harsh. So apparently DOs are less respected, and their education is inferior to that of MDs?

Um, may be...but honestly, why do we want to be doctors? its a job! we get paid for it (and may be enjoy it). So i guess the real measure of how "equivalent" the two fields is how two specialist (one DO one MD) get paid. And from observation, DO's and MD's get paid the SAME.

 

[NewmansOwn]

Please, allow me to defend myself.

I apologize for making everyone angry; I did not anticipate quite such a harsh response. JackDanielsMD, your calling me an idiot is uncalled for -- it is not productive, nor is it respectful. You do a disservice to this forum and to scholarship with such behavior.

I have all the respect in the world for DOs, as I've seen a few in my own childhood -- they are usually better communicators than MDs, come to think of it...My point was that the MD degree is more respected in many fields of medicine. For isntance, do you know many DO dermatologists or neurosurgeons? Do you know many DO researchers? DOs make fantastic doctors and I would see one anyday -- my only point was to kindly advise the OP that DOs often find themselves with less opportunities because of intolerance in the medical community.

I feel your mean-spirited responses were wholly unneccesary, but again, I apologize sincerely for stirring up angst.

 

[Daydreamer2008]

so is he really in the film industry or is he one of those waiters who thinks he's the next big actor just waiting to get discovered?

he actually went to USC film school and studied animation. he's hoping to be a Director 🙂 He's on his way for sure tho! I have faith in him 🙂

 

[JackDanielMD]

then why is it so much harder to get into an MD program?

Well, certainly some DO schools do not have admission stats as high as some MD schools, however there are exceptions. Now, does that mean that the education one receives at a DO school is inferior to MD schools. Certainly not. The reason why its "so much harder" is because there is an unfounded belief from pre-meds that DO is inferior to MD, causing the top tier candidates to gravitate towards MD schools, leaving less competitive spots open in DO schools, and as long as that trend continues, we will have arguments like this. The classes are exactly the same, with the addition of OMM.

The fact of the matter is there is a shortage of physicians. AMA recommended that MD schools increase the number of seats. They have not done this, so in response, more DO seats are opening up, which will help fill the physician shortage.

Bottom line: when you're practicing medicine, no one cares!

 

[armybound]

he actually went to USC film school and studied animation. he's hoping to be a Director 🙂 He's on his way for sure tho! I have faith in him 🙂

just making sure.. if it's a legitimate job, then it could be taken into consideration. if he was like I said, then he should stop wasting your time and just move out east with you.

 

[Lokhtar]

Talk to DO surgeons. Think through your options. Do not believe anything from pre-meds (including me) who have no idea what they're talking about. The main thing is to not regret your decision later on, and if you make an informed decision after talking to various attendings(MD and DO), then you'll know what you are getting into.

 

[dd128]

Please, allow me to defend myself.

I apologize for making everyone angry; I did not anticipate quite such a harsh response. JackDanielsMD, your calling me an idiot is uncalled for -- it is not productive, nor is it respectful. You do a disservice to this forum and to scholarship with such behavior.

I have all the respect in the world for DOs, as I've seen a few in my own childhood -- they are usually better communicators than MDs, come to think of it...My point was that the MD degree is more respected in many fields of medicine. For isntance, do you know many DO dermatologists or neurosurgeons? Do you know many DO researchers? DOs make fantastic doctors and I would see one anyday -- my only point was to kindly advise the OP that DOs often find themselves with less opportunities because of intolerance in the medical community.

I feel your mean-spirited responses were wholly unneccesary, but again, I apologize sincerely for stirring up angst.

Not that it matters, but one of those dr. 90210 guys is a DO...I believe that is plastics right? I'm just curious as to where the information is you came across that talks about this intolerance in the medical community

 

[JackDanielMD]

JackDanielsMD, your calling me an idiot is uncalled for -- it is not productive, nor is it respectful. You do a disservice to this forum and to scholarship with such behavior.

Well, I would hate to make SDN non-productive, or be disrespectful of other people one it!

 

[NewmansOwn]

Not that it matters, but one of those dr. 90210 guys is a DO...I believe that is plastics right? I'm just curious as to where the information is you came across that talks about this intolerance in the medical community

Well actually, he is a dermatologist -- but that's certainly as competitive. This is an anecdote, though; I'm talking about an overarching trend in the community. There are only a very limited amount of osteopathic-approved residency spots in America. The result, then, is that those DO graduates who do not match into such a residency must compete for allopathic residencies. Herein lies the disadvantage -- allopathic residencies will take MD candidates over DO candidates, unless the DO candidate is truly very remarkable (obviously a distinct possibility). For instance, take a look at Brigham and Women's residency programs: You will be hard pressed to find a DO on their house staff. Though the stigma against DOs is largely disappearing, DO graduates still find the odds stacked a bit against them.

 

[NewmansOwn]

Well, I would hate to make SDN non-productive, or be disrespectful of other people one it!

Do you mean unproductive?

 

[Lokhtar]

For isntance, do you know many DO dermatologists or neurosurgeons?

Actually, DO residencies graduate about a 100 new dermatologists per year. There are four or five at my community hospital, and two at the large teaching hospital.

 

[Bacchus]

All you have to do is visit an American College of Blah Blah Blah for osteopathic physicians and you'll see there is quite a number of them for any given specialty. Florida alone had ~85 registered dermatologists (http://www.aocd.org/cgi-local/membership/find_do.pl?State=FL). Why do we always have these threads?

 

[JackDanielMD]

Well actually, he is a dermatologist -- but that's certainly as competitive. This is an anecdote, though; I'm talking about an overarching trend in the community. There are only a very limited amount of osteopathic-approved residency spots in America. The result, then, is that those DO graduates who do not match into such a residency must compete for allopathic residencies. Herein lies the disadvantage -- allopathic residencies will take MD candidates over DO candidates, unless the DO candidate is truly very remarkable (obviously a distinct possibility). For instance, take a look at Brigham and Women's residency programs: You will be hard pressed to find a DO on their house staff. Though the stigma against DOs is largely disappearing, DO graduates still find the odds stacked a bit against them.

Again, false. As far as allopathic residencies go, a DO with a superior USMLE and class standing will get the spot before an inferior performing MD. It is arguable that an MD would have an advantage over a DO if the stats are EXACTLY the same, but when does that ever happen? A DO does not need to be "TRUELY REMARKABLE". As far as discrimination goes, yeah, it probably exists. However, there are residencies that discriminate among MD schools, only selecting ivory med school students. There is regional discrimination all over the US. My point is, yes there is some discrimination, but going MD won't necessarily mean you won't be discriminated against

 

[gman33]

DO can still get you where you want, but it might make it a little harder along the way. If staying close is the best way to keep your relationship and you really value it, then I'd go DO.

I was in a situation where if I got into my local DO school and only MD's that were far away, I was going to go DO. I'm married, so maybe it's a little different.

 

[gman33]

DO can still get you where you want, but it might make it a little harder along the way. If staying close is the best way to keep your relationship and you really value it, then I'd go DO.

I was in a situation where if I got into my local DO school and only MD's that were far away, I was going to go DO. I'm married, so maybe it's a little different.

 

[NewmansOwn]

Actually, DO residencies graduate about a 100 new dermatologists per year. There are four or five at my community hospital, and two at the large teaching hospital.

Goodness, guys -- I know there are DO dermatologists. I'm not saying it's impossible. The point is, the vast majority of competitive specialty spots are filled by MDs, overall.

 

[Bacchus]

No crap. There are only a fraction of DOs in this country when compared to MDs. The probably of seeing an MD to a DO is quite large in favor of the MD. Look at the population first, its quite easy to understand.

 

[gasapple]

Again, false. As far as allopathic residencies go, a DO with a superior USMLE and class standing will get the spot before an inferior performing MD. It is arguable that an MD would have an advantage over a DO if the stats are EXACTLY the same, but when does that ever happen? A DO does not need to be "TRUELY REMARKABLE". As far as discrimination goes, yeah, it probably exists. However, there are residencies that discriminate among MD schools, only selecting ivory med school students. There is regional discrimination all over the US. My point is, yes there is some discrimination, but going MD won't necessarily mean you won't be discriminated against

School is finally in session...👍

 

[dd128]

Goodness, guys -- I know there are DO dermatologists. I'm not saying it's impossible. The point is, the vast majority of competitive specialty spots are filled by MDs, overall.

I think most of the people were just rubbed wrong by your first post. You came off sounding a tad condescending when mentioning the DOs. The truth is it may be slightly more competitive in certain situations for them to match to residencies, but these people are equally educated in medicine. Thinking less of colleagues is not something most people are fond of (and you may not think less of them, it just came off that way in your post).

 

[NewmansOwn]

I think most of the people were just rubbed wrong by your first post. You came off sounding a tad condescending when mentioning the DOs. The truth is it may be slightly more competitive in certain situations for them to match to residencies, but these people are equally educated in medicine. Thinking less of colleagues is not something most people are fond of (and you may not think less of them, it just came off that way in your post).

I have apologized for any distasteful tone. I am taken aback by the lack of manners on these forums. Surely this can be a reasonable discussion instead of a battle.

Someone mentioned that only 'crusty old MDs' look down on DOs. Supposing that is the case, that is still bad news for our poor OP (who has been sidelined by this fight) who needs to decide. Because the fact of the matter is, crusty old MDs run a lot of the residency programs out there. As a result, what they think, unfortunately, may matter quite a bit.

Let's make this less personal, ok? I will reiterate: I do not condescend to DOs. Many (yes, mostly older) folks in the medical community do. This is, thus, a valuable piece of information for our OP to consider.

 

[lex]

Go with what your heart tells you. If you have always wanted an MD, get an MD. Do NOT settle for a DO just because of a guy. If he is the right person, he will understand and you both will still be together. If you never have a career, I think you should prioritize your career first, everything else comes second; this includes family, love, etc. Because in the end, you do not want to look back and think "could've should've"...

I have been married for six years but we have only been living together for 1 1/2 to 2 years, accumulatively because of our careers/jobs. This works great for us since we understand our career comes first, especially when we are young (relatively speaking, of course). No regrets in the future. Additionally, we have many years to come to build a future together.

If you are with the right person, it should come easy and natural. Good luck.

 

[soccerpunk60]

why would anyone choose DO over MD?? makes absolutely no sense

 

[Law2Doc]

Ok I know this topic has been beaten to DEATH! But I have a unique situation. So far, I'm accepted to an MD school on the east coast and a DO here on the west coast. My boyfriend of 2 years (we WILL get married but not sure when) has to stay here in Cali b/c of his career in the film industry. I know deep down that I've always wanted my MD and that there is more opportunity with the degree in terms of residency. I also want to conduct clinical trials once I am a physician so an MD would be more beneficial for me. But I'm torn too b/c I want to stay here and be near everyone I care about. I also can move in with my boyfriend if I stay here and get my DO. Has anyone gone through such a decision? If it came down to these two schools, I'm just still not sure what I would do...and decision making time is about 3 months away.....One of my friends who is an orthopedic surgeon tells me that I should absolutely get my MD degree because MD's are more respected (he flat out told me that) which I guess may be true in surgery. But another friend of mine who is a surgery resident told me that she met a DO pulmonologist and he was even more intelligent and articulate than many MD's she's met....anyways just trying to see if anyone had to make this choice...??

Let's put aside the whole MD vs DO issue. Your concerns turn mostly on respect and that is a silly focus to have in terms of your career. The patients won't know what degree you have and will merely see the white coat. Heck, you will be called doctor as a med student pretty regularly. The question should be what job function you want to ultimately have and which path gets you there.

As a prior poster mentioned, you applied to a school far away and even interviewed there. Presumably it crossed your mind that you might be willing to move away. And that, combined with the fact that you don't have a ring on your finger at this juncture suggests that perhaps you need to make the school/career decision as if you weren't in a relationship. Med school breaks up more than a few relationships, and when it does, you might want to be at the school of your dreams, because that may be all you have left.

 

[fisko82]

I think the answer here is simple: either get accepted to an MD school in Cali or just have your boyfriend start his own film industry out east near you. There, problem solved. You're welcome.

 

[JackDanielMD]

why would anyone choose DO over MD?? makes absolutely no sense

OK...seriously. Mods, please lock and move this thread...to the inner most circle of Hell.

 

[bth7]

Daydreamer2008,

I'd suggest taking a few deep breaths. It's good that you are talking to people and getting some professionals opinions. Though you have to take everything with a grain of salt of course.

Read up on the whole DO thing. It will give you some perspective on the issues & history surrounding osteopathic & allopathic medicine.
Osteopathic medicine in the U.S.
Comparison of allopathic and osteopathic medicine

My personal opinion, from what you've described, I believe you can do all the things you want to do as a D.O. But I would suggest you investigate this thoroughly for yourself.

As far as "respect" goes, I feel compelled to express a strong personal opinion. The idea that D.O.s are "less respected" is just plain ridiculous. Seriously.

bth

 

[Vvandenn]

I actually started an emergency medicine clinical research position yesterday at a county hospital and I noticed a metric ton of DOs (ER docs, IM, gen surg, ortho, etc). Seriously, go and talk to some DOs and get a better feel of any supposed "disadvantages" they may have compared to MDs. But after going to the hospital the other day and seeing so many, I highly doubt it plays as big of role as some people think it does.

 

[endocardium]

Someone mentioned that only 'crusty old MDs' look down on DOs. Supposing that is the case, that is still bad news for our poor OP (who has been sidelined by this fight) who needs to decide. Because the fact of the matter is, crusty old MDs run a lot of the residency programs out there. As a result, what they think, unfortunately, may matter quite a bit.

Let's make this less personal, ok? I will reiterate: I do not condescend to DOs. Many (yes, mostly older) folks in the medical community do. This is, thus, a valuable piece of information for our OP to consider.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[RySerr21]

why would anyone choose DO over MD?? makes absolutely no sense

enlighten yourself

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=485952&page=3

 

[RySerr21]

I actually started an emergency medicine clinical research position yesterday at a county hospital and I noticed a metric ton of DOs (ER docs, IM, gen surg, ortho, etc). Seriously, go and talk to some DOs and get a better feel of any supposed "disadvantages" they may have compared to MDs. But after going to the hospital the other day and seeing so many, I highly doubt it plays as big of role as some people think it does.

you were at an emergency medicine clinical research establishment.... primary care?!?! last time i checked that was a pretty big part of the DO philosophy. its no surprise you saw many ER and IM docs who had their DO degree. the fact is that DOs have harder times getting into specialties like ortho, derm, etc.

and im sure the number of primary care DOs far exceeded the number of DO specialists you mentioned

 

[NewmansOwn]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

If, as a DO student, you don't run into many MD program directors, then this response is understandable -- but trust me; a lot of them are bigoted @ssholes. But are you really denying any stigma whatsoever in the medical community? Especially among older folks? I mean come on, at least contribute something, instead of just flaming -- that doesn't take any intellect.

 

[Frank l]

Well actually, he is a dermatologist -- but that's certainly as competitive. This is an anecdote, though; I'm talking about an overarching trend in the community. There are only a very limited amount of osteopathic-approved residency spots in America. The result, then, is that those DO graduates who do not match into such a residency must compete for allopathic residencies. Herein lies the disadvantage -- allopathic residencies will take MD candidates over DO candidates, unless the DO candidate is truly very remarkable (obviously a distinct possibility). For instance, take a look at Brigham and Women's residency programs: You will be hard pressed to find a DO on their house staff. Though the stigma against DOs is largely disappearing, DO graduates still find the odds stacked a bit against them.

this isn't entirely accurate. a large percentage of osteopathic slots go unfilled every year because DO student apply to allopathic residencies. the DO match occurs first, and if you match your name is automatically taken out of the allopathic match. so the DOs who apply to the allopathic match never participated in the osteopathic match. the above post seems to suggest that DOs don't have enough slots to match in, and are forced to apply to allopathic slots, which is not true.

to the OP:
if you want to be a physician, go to either school. if you can't live without an MD, go to an MD school. if you want to get into a really competitive residency...well it is going to be really competitive no matter what. if you can go to an MD school and do well enough to get into a super competitive residency, then that means you will do well enough in a DO school to get into a super competitive residency. the letters after your name aren't going to make or break you at that point.
and whoever said that you should put your career above love and family doesn't really know what they are talking about. this is a job we are talking about. you want to try to do something you enjoy, but it is still a job. you still have to come home at some point, and if the person you love isn't there, you aren't going to be happy.

 

[Bacchus]

Someone get me a ladder, quick! Its getting deep in here. Suffocation by poo is not how I wanna go out!

 

[soccerpunk60]

enlighten yourself

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=485952&page=3

wow i feel quite enlightened. i'm glad to know people would chose to become a fake doctor over a real one b/c of ******ed reasons like the ones listed in that forum.