Choosing DO OVER MD?

[davidsomsen]

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Hey guys-

I was wondering if some of you out there could shed some light on this question for me. I'm currently in the process of interviewing - both at MD and DO schools, and I have a question.

I just visited TouroNY, and I loved it. I think it's the perfect school for me. It's in a great area, it focuses on the underserved community, etc. My question is, is it absolutely crazy if I choose a DO school OVER an MD school? What are the cons to getting residencies? I know there are some, but at this point I don't really even know what residency I would like to get into. And if my scores are good enough, does that really even matter?

Anyone who has any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot, everyone!

Dave

 

[davidsomsen]

I should add that, even though I hear it's not really used that much, I do subscribe to the osteopathic philosophy moreso than the allopathic.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Choose a school which you think is a better fit/ better priced/ closer to relatives or farther depending on which is better for you and make sure you study hard lol.

 

[JaggerPlate]

It happens ...

I'd analyze your options, weigh what you place emphasis on, and then make a decision.

 

[Pianoman32]

Hey guys-

I was wondering if some of you out there could shed some light on this question for me. I'm currently in the process of interviewing - both at MD and DO schools, and I have a question.

I just visited TouroNY, and I loved it. I think it's the perfect school for me. It's in a great area, it focuses on the underserved community, etc. My question is, is it absolutely crazy if I choose a DO school OVER an MD school? What are the cons to getting residencies? I know there are some, but at this point I don't really even know what residency I would like to get into. And if my scores are good enough, does that really even matter?

Anyone who has any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot, everyone!

Dave

I know nothing about residency placements; however, I have read step 1 passing rates. I believe it was something like 90% of US MD students pass step 1. 80% of DO students pass step 1. 65% of IMG pass step 1. These numbers could be due to two things.

1) less academically inclined pool of students leading to lower scores on step 1
2) poorer instruction

I tend to believe it is number 1. DO schools have lower mcat scores and undergrad gpas and it has been shown that these 2 factors do correlate to eventual step 1 scores. Therefore, it makes sense that they have a lower pass rate.

Anyway, I'm an MD student and I do not see any difference in DO or MD instruction. I personally think it's all academic snobery. Both degrees are the same in my mind. If a student proves that they can pass the same exams and schooling that I have, I see them as equal.

With that being said, the individuals that you will have to impress will be mostly academic snobs who would sell their left nut to be affiliated with Harvard or Hopkins (kind of like how Brian Kelly sold his left nut to coach at Notre Dame).

I go to a lesser known US MD school and would likely be at a dissadvantage applying against someone from Harvard. Look at their match list. Every single person got into a top residency. Are you honestly going to tell me that one person from Harvard wasn't a bum in medical school? There wasn't one person at Harvard who didn't get below a 200? There wasn't one person who failed a few classes? There wasn't one person from Harvard who didn't screw up along the way?

This same logic will be applied to you when you apply against MD students. You might have better stats than an MD student but residency directors will resort to academic snobery again and see the MD degree as superior just like they see a degree from Harvard as superior. Is your DO degree differnt? No. Will residency directors think this? Maybe....Maybe not.

 

[NSU14]

From everything I have read on hear it seems that if you do well enough on the boards then it makes no difference in DO or MD. You can take the USMLE as a DO and so there really is no difference in what school you go to. Go wherever you will be happiest!

 

[willen101383]

I was in this situation. I went to grad school and have lived in Philly for 3 years now. My lady has a stable job here. My friends are here. I did end up with an MD acceptance in NY where I grew up....but was accepted to PCOM as well. That is where I am matriculating this fall. If you think the school fits well with you etc than do what makes you happy! Chances are you will succeed academically in an environment that matches well with you.

I am a bit older, have seen the fact that MD vs DO simply doesnt go on in real life....and frankly why the hell would I want to move again when I am all set up here in Philly? As you get older (not trying to say anything about you just that I am a bit older than a lot on SDN) you become more confident in yourself, your abilities,etc....and take more than just "prestige" into consideration when choosing where you go to school.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Hey guys-

I was wondering if some of you out there could shed some light on this question for me. I'm currently in the process of interviewing - both at MD and DO schools, and I have a question.

I just visited TouroNY, and I loved it. I think it's the perfect school for me. It's in a great area, it focuses on the underserved community, etc. My question is, is it absolutely crazy if I choose a DO school OVER an MD school? What are the cons to getting residencies? I know there are some, but at this point I don't really even know what residency I would like to get into. And if my scores are good enough, does that really even matter?

Anyone who has any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot, everyone!

Dave

There are a few questions:
1) Do you have acceptances to any programs?

2) Assuming you do, what is the difference in price? What is the difference in cost of living? How much will you be spending overall?

3) Location- is one closer to your folks or in a better location?

4) Curriculum- does one have better curriculum features?

5) Rotations- which has better rotations

6) Reputation- which has a better reputation?

7) Overall fit- do you feel like you fit with one program completely and not with another program.

All things equal, I think you will have better options for residency at an MD program. This is important because you do not know what you want to do and it leaves the door open. If you knew you wanted to do family practice or private practice general IM then I would say that it really doesn't matter. But you not knowing means you should leave your options as open as possible.

Look into the clinical rotations. Some DO programs are known to have worse clinicals than others. Some vary based on what you get in the lottery for clinical rotations and may send you all over the state/bordering states. I do not know if this is the case for Touro-NY but it is something to look into.

The philosophy has less to do with your training and more to do with you.

 

[JaggerPlate]

There are a few questions:
1) Do you have acceptances to any programs?

2) Assuming you do, what is the difference in price? What is the difference in cost of living? How much will you be spending overall?

3) Location- is one closer to your folks or in a better location?

4) Curriculum- does one have better curriculum features?

5) Rotations- which has better rotations

6) Reputation- which has a better reputation?

7) Overall fit- do you feel like you fit with one program completely and not with another program.

All things equal, I think you will have better options for residency at an MD program. This is important because you do not know what you want to do and it leaves the door open. If you knew you wanted to do family practice or private practice general IM then I would say that it really doesn't matter. But you not knowing means you should leave your options as open as possible.

Look into the clinical rotations. Some DO programs are known to have worse clinicals than others. Some vary based on what you get in the lottery for clinical rotations and may send you all over the state/bordering states. I do not know if this is the case for Touro-NY but it is something to look into.

The philosophy has less to do with your training and more to do with you.

Sage advice.

 

[ArkansasRanger]

My first choice of medical school is, of course, UAMS because it's the one I've got here in Arkansas thus the most accessible and cheapest. I've also been around their campus many times.

That said, beyond UAMS I think I'd rather apply to osteopathic programs. I don't know enough about OMT to judge it or say that I would utilize it in practice. The philosophical approach of the "whole patient" makes sense to me. I don't think that could be disputed. Sure, the M.D. has more marketability than the D.O., but regardless of the title they'll have the same job, or at least I would since I have no interests in being subspecialized in anything at this point in my life. Examining things from my overall outlook on life makes me think even more that a primary care specialty, or emergency medicine, is what would suit me best due to the generality of those fields. I can also make somewhat of a judgement on that because I've been exposed to all of those fields.

At any rate, what appeals to me most about D.O.'s is that from both the family practice residents I've seen and worked with, as well as hospital physicians, and from participating in this website is that those in osteopathy seem to be more reasonable and I dare say blessed with a more realistic view of life.

Attack my statements if you will, but again from my exposure that all seems true.

 

[J1515]

I chose DO over MD and echo Willen's advice. Go where you'll be most comfortable, get the best grades, and learn the most. Everyone has their theories as to who likes what better but ultimately your board scores and grades will be most important regardless of which route you choose. If you suddenly decide you like neurosurgery or dermatology then there are DO-only neurosurg and derm programs.

 

[swamprat]

Honestly I think you need to go to an MD school over a DO school no matter what. I applied to both, and I have no issues with DO but unless your interested in being a PCP you are going to close some doors/make it a lot harder to get where you need to go. My PCP is a DO and told me to go to MD if I can get in and don't look back. I have also spoken to a few other DOs who generally agree with what my PCP said. Anecdotal yes but I just don't get how you could choose otherwise given those facts plus the stigma associated with them in SOME circles - valid or not I'd rather be in the majority than minority on this one. Good luck though, and again I have no issues with DOs or the degree, but some people do.

edit: now that i thought about it, i am a college kid with no real ties to anyone or anything except my family - no wife or kids or anything so i guess that changes things i dont know im not in the position, but as far as being away from my parents, thats life right.

 

[ArkansasRanger]

That's why I pointed out the marketability of the M.D.

Besides, one could always put their sign up as...

Dr. Arkansas Ranger
Family Practice Physician

or whatever you wanted your sign to say...

That eliminates the need to educate people about the "D.O."

 

[JaggerPlate]

'Close certain doors' is another one of those SDN phrases that people automatically repeat, and it kind of cracks me up. I think it's in reference to residencies, but I don't think people realize what it takes to get these coveted ACGME spots. Do you honestly think just because you attend an MD school, you will have a decent shot at derm, or ent, or integrated plastics? Doors can close on you at any point. Doors could slam shut after your pre-clinical grades. Doors can deadbolt after Step 1, or LORs, or anything. The majority of people who go to MD schools do well, match into a variety of specialties, from easy to decently difficult, but the people who match derm, plastics, etc, are just absolute rockstars. I have a friend who is an MS-1 at UCLA. He got a 39 on the MCAT, 4.0 in chemical engineering, published multiple times, etc, etc, he took his first test a while back (I was talking to him while he was studying) and received an 80 on it. He told me he'd never worked so hard for anything in his life, and he didn't even understand the nature of the people who were getting 90+ on the exam. Of course, all these people want to go into derm, ortho, integrated PRS, et al. He said he was pretty sure at that point that he wasn't even going to gun for PRS anymore.

So what is my point ... These 'doors' that are closed to DO students from the ACGME side, aren't exactly flying off the hinges for 99% of MD students either. This also isn't even taking into account the AOA residencies. Now, is there a way better chance that an MD student will land these crazy ACGME residencies? Of course. However, don't be surprised in four years down the road when these people who choose the path of 'more resistance' land spots in just as competitive as specialties, even with these closed doors.

 

[Cybii]

.

 

[DrBowtie]

My first choice of medical school is, of course, UAMS because it's the one I've got here in Arkansas thus the most accessible and cheapest. I've also been around their campus many times.

That said, beyond UAMS I think I'd rather apply to osteopathic programs. I don't know enough about OMT to judge it or say that I would utilize it in practice. The philosophical approach of the "whole patient" makes sense to me. I don't think that could be disputed. Sure, the M.D. has more marketability than the D.O., but regardless of the title they'll have the same job, or at least I would since I have no interests in being subspecialized in anything at this point in my life. Examining things from my overall outlook on life makes me think even more that a primary care specialty, or emergency medicine, is what would suit me best due to the generality of those fields. I can also make somewhat of a judgement on that because I've been exposed to all of those fields.

At any rate, what appeals to me most about D.O.'s is that from both the family practice residents I've seen and worked with, as well as hospital physicians, and from participating in this website is that those in osteopathy seem to be more reasonable and I dare say blessed with a more realistic view of life.

Attack my statements if you will, but again from my exposure that all seems true.

Granted I go to an MD school, but I would caution against choosing the DO school for anything outside of practical reasons (cheaper, closer to home, curriculum etc.). Tangible differences.

I assure you we treat the "whole patient". DO schools do not have a monopoly on common sense.

 

[ArkansasRanger]

Granted I go to an MD school, but I would caution against choosing the DO school for anything outside of practical reasons (cheaper, closer to home, curriculum etc.). Tangible differences.

I assure you we treat the "whole patient". DO schools do not have a monopoly on common sense.

I realize they don't. Like I pointed out, I'd rather go to UAMS than anywhere. I don't know enough to choose a school based on its reputation, but I doubt there are any in the U.S. with bad reputations.

For me, GPA would probably be the biggest factor in "forced selection." My GPA was 3.4something when I graduated, and I later went back and took a handful of courses in which I earned bad grades. At the time I had much more pressing issues than preparing for an array of optional classes that were and would later be useless to me. I'm not proud nor ashamed of that. Honestly, I could care less, but I realize that'll be a hinderance at some, if not all, schools. If I could change anything about it I would elect to never have taken them since it was a waste of my time and money albeit cheap tuition in Arkansas. I'm still above 3.0 cummulatively, but even after taking the five or so prereqs that I need then I still won't have even a 3.4something cummulative again. It's unrealistic to expect me to go back long enough to take enough classes to raise my cummulative GPA to a 3.6 or higher. I've got over 160 hours of undergrad hours, over 40 of 4.0 technical hours from paramedic school, and I think 6 hours from grad courses that were funded by my teacher prep program. Since then I've taken about 12 hours of science courses with a 4.0, but that's nothing in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Laryngophed]

There are a few questions:
1) Do you have acceptances to any programs?

2) Assuming you do, what is the difference in price? What is the difference in cost of living? How much will you be spending overall?

3) Location- is one closer to your folks or in a better location?

4) Curriculum- does one have better curriculum features?

5) Rotations- which has better rotations

6) Reputation- which has a better reputation?

7) Overall fit- do you feel like you fit with one program completely and not with another program.

All things equal, I think you will have better options for residency at an MD program. This is important because you do not know what you want to do and it leaves the door open. If you knew you wanted to do family practice or private practice general IM then I would say that it really doesn't matter. But you not knowing means you should leave your options as open as possible.

Look into the clinical rotations. Some DO programs are known to have worse clinicals than others. Some vary based on what you get in the lottery for clinical rotations and may send you all over the state/bordering states. I do not know if this is the case for Touro-NY but it is something to look into.

The philosophy has less to do with your training and more to do with you.

👍

A D.O. can enter any specialty (nearly all through AOA only residencies) but in the really competitive residencies and fellowships we have a tougher row to hoe.

Go to the school that you feel you will be happiest and most successful attending. If there are two, go to the one with the best and most stable rotations. If there are two, go to the cheapest.

 

[Bacchus]

Sorry if I piss anyone off.

I would not go to Touro-NY if you get a spot at a "better," more-reputable program. They just placed their students into rotations this year. They have not graduated a class. Sure, Touro-NY has acquired NYMC and some more spots to rotate at, but the school has not proven itself yet.

 

[HoboCommander]

There are some specialties that are easier to get into as a DO than MD. The reverse is also true, it depends what you want to get into.

 

[Bacchus]

There are some specialties that are easier to get into as a DO than MD. The reverse is also true, it depends what you want to get into.

What specialties would they be? Our OMT training does not put us at an advantage over our counterparts in residency success.

 

[JaggerPlate]

From what I can gather, it's just kind of 'different' to get into highly sought after residencies from the AOA side vs the ACGME side. It seems like the AOA plastic, derm, ENT, world is much smaller, and relies a lot on auditions, and making connections. I know this is obviously true to an extent in the ACGME world, but I dunno, I've just always thought it was a little different for AOA. I could be 100% wrong though ... obviously I haven't gone through it.

 

[JaggerPlate]

There are some specialties that are easier to get into as a DO than MD. The reverse is also true, it depends what you want to get into.

I've heard it's a lot harder for MDs to get those AOA spots.

 

[Pianoman32]

There are some specialties that are easier to get into as a DO than MD. The reverse is also true, it depends what you want to get into.

Listen, personally I think the education you get at a DO school is the same as that at an MD school, but when you apply to residency, the DO student will be at a disadvantage. There is no way around this fact.

If DO students had just as much of a chance as getting into any specialty as US MD students, then the DO students percentage for entering a specialty among all entering students would be the same across all specialties; however, this is not the case.

STATS FROM National Resident Matching Program

Family Medicine
US MD senior: 48.7%
DO: 9.6%

Emergency Medicine
US MD senior: 77.8%
DO: 9.4%

Dermatology
US MD Senior: 81.3%
DO: 0.3%

General Surgery
US MD Senior: 83.3%
DO: 1.6%

Ortho
US MD Senior: 91.9%
DO: 0.5%

Plastic Surgery
US MD Senior: 95.5%
DO: 0%


Say what you want, but the numbers don't lie. US MD students have the opposite trend. The more competitive specialties have higher rates of US MD students, whereas the less competitive specialties have more DO and IMGs. There are 3 possible reasons for these stats

1) DO students are stupid
2) DO schools are inadequate
3) DO students have many doors closed to them because of the DO

I would like to think it is number three, but everyone seems to keep saying that being an osteopath closes no doors.

 

[Laryngophed]

Listen, personally I think the education you get at a DO school is the same as that at an MD school, but when you apply to residency, the DO student will be at a disadvantage. There is no way around this fact.

If DO students had just as much of a chance as getting into any specialty as US MD students, then the DO students percentage for entering a specialty among all entering students would be the same across all specialties; however, this is not the case.

STATS FROM National Resident Matching Program

Family Medicine
US MD senior: 48.7%
DO: 9.6%

Emergency Medicine
US MD senior: 77.8%
DO: 9.4%

Dermatology
US MD Senior: 81.3%
DO: 0.3%

General Surgery
US MD Senior: 83.3%
DO: 1.6%

Ortho
US MD Senior: 91.9%
DO: 0.5%

Plastic Surgery
US MD Senior: 95.5%
DO: 0%


Say what you want, but the numbers don't lie. US MD students have the opposite trend. The more competitive specialties have higher rates of US MD students, whereas the less competitive specialties have more DO and IMGs. There are 3 possible reasons for these stats

1) DO students are stupid
2) DO schools are inadequate
3) DO students have many doors closed to them because of the DO

I would like to think it is number three, but everyone seems to keep saying that being an osteopath closes no doors.

Your numbers neglect the fact that D.O.s have a much smaller market share and of the much smaller pool of D.O.s I think ~2,500 (IIRC) enter programs that aren't under the purveyance of the NRMP.

 

[Pianoman32]

Seriously think about this. Not a single DO student earned a residency spot in plastic surgery. There are several DO students that if they had an MD with all other credentials the same, would have earned that spot. This my friends is a big closed door.

 

[Laryngophed]

Seriously think about this. Not a single DO student earned a residency spot in plastic surgery.

We're arguing semantics, but I think we both know this is false. There were certainly D.O.s who matched in AOA PRS. I don't think it's safe to count those who matched Gen. Surg. and will go to PRS through that route either. I'm also sure some may have gone Surg. Prelim. and may and try and match again. I'd also be interested to see how many even applied for those spots. It doesn't make sense for a D.O. to apply to an ACGME spot that the majority of M.D. candidates aren't qualified for knowing there are some P.D.s who still hold an anti-D.O. bias. Why waste a year of your life when, if you are qualified you can take your (much better chances) with the AOA match?

There are several DO students that if they had an MD with all other credentials the same, would have earned that spot. This my friends is a big closed door.

While it may be accurate, that's speculation.

 

[rc4ch]

Seriously think about this. Not a single DO student earned a residency spot in plastic surgery. There are several DO students that if they had an MD with all other credentials the same, would have earned that spot. This my friends is a big closed door.

Not a single MD earned a residency spot in OMT. I bet there are a lot of MD students out there that if they had a DO instead of an MD they would have earned that spot. I think I consider that as a big closed door as well don't ya think? Probably a more concrete closed door compared to your example.

Jokes aside, its obvious, DO pump out mostly primary care physicians. If you want that, then DO and MD are fine choices. If you want to get the plastics, etc, then you know where your best chances are.

 

[Pianoman32]

Your numbers neglect the fact that D.O.s have a much smaller market share and of the much smaller pool of D.O.s I think ~2,500 (IIRC) enter programs that aren't under the purveyance of the NRMP.

The amount of DO's would be more than enough to have a statistically significant sample. The mere fact that the DO's market share goes from around 10% in family practice to less than 1% in ortho should raise eye-brows. Why isn't it the same in both? Or why such the drastic difference? It ranges between 5-10% for ALL of the so-called non competitive specialties (psych, IM, FP, OB-gyn, etc). Yet for all competitive specialties, it is around 1%. That sounds pretty significant.

I'm not arguing anymore. I've said my piece. I just wanted to point out to the OP that if he/she chooses DO, several specialized areas will be much harder to pursue. I've given numerical evidence, while everyone else has just given personal opinions/anecdotes.

If it makes you sleep easier at night by saying you can pursue any specialty with just as much ease as your MD brethran, than good for you, but don't try and persuade the OP by feeding him/her lies.

 

[Laryngophed]

The amount of DO's would be more than enough to have a statistically significant sample.

I take it you've worked those numbers up, or is that just anecdotal data/conjecture on your part?

The mere fact that the DO's market share goes from around 10% in family practice to less than 1% in ortho should raise eye-brows. Why isn't it the same in both? Or why such the drastic difference? It ranges between 5-10% for ALL of the so-called non competitive specialties (psych, IM, FP, OB-gyn, etc). Yet for all competitive specialties, it is around 1%. That sounds pretty significant.

Well, that sure does look odd. But I can offer another, just as plausible explanation that'll be difficult for you to disprove. It could be that D.O. schools attract students more interested in the "non-competitive" specialties. Many D.O. schools have a stated interest in producing primary care physicians (to be fair, so do a great many M.D. schools as well) but maybe D.O. schools are more effective at recruiting future PCPs. Who knows? I don't and I'm willing to bet you don't know either. I think you are looking at the data and seeing the evidence to draw the conclusion you want to draw. You can't explain away my hypothesis, but again, to be fair I can't explain away yours either.

I'm not arguing anymore. I've said my piece.

I thought we were having a friendly discussion. I have no animosity toward you and I don't think I've displayed any here.

I just wanted to point out to the OP that if he/she chooses DO, several specialized areas will be much harder to pursue.

I'm not certain, but I think those are damn near my exact words in my first post in this thread.

I've given numerical evidence, while everyone else has just given personal opinions/anecdotes.

You've given incomplete evidence and got defensive when the holes in your evidence were pointed out. Granted you did offer numbers, but I'm too lazy to go looking for the AOA match numbers. I spent 5 hours in the car today and I don't care to go looking for them.

If it makes you sleep easier at night by saying you can pursue any specialty with just as much ease as your MD brethran, than good for you, but don't try and persuade the OP by feeding him/her lies.

No where did I lie to the OP and I know precisely what I'm getting myself into with this profession. You can step down off of your soapbox/mountain top and stop preaching to me (and seemingly anyone else who disagrees with you now).

 

[badapplestix]

👍
From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need.
Karl Marx

Quote:
Most people don't realize how amazingly hard it is to become a physician. The passion it takes, the dedication, sacrifices, etc...
-JaggerPlate

hahaha i thought it was funny that you quoted karl marx and then jagger

 

[Laryngophed]

hahaha i thought it was funny that you quoted karl marx and then jagger

Haha, yeah. Politically, the two are diametrically opposed. I quote KM because I have my own personal interpretation of the quote and like it. I don't necessarily agree with ole' Karl about everything. 😉

 

[badapplestix]

Listen, personally I think the education you get at a DO school is the same as that at an MD school, but when you apply to residency, the DO student will be at a disadvantage. There is no way around this fact.

If DO students had just as much of a chance as getting into any specialty as US MD students, then the DO students percentage for entering a specialty among all entering students would be the same across all specialties; however, this is not the case.

STATS FROM National Resident Matching Program

Family Medicine
US MD senior: 48.7%
DO: 9.6%

Emergency Medicine
US MD senior: 77.8%
DO: 9.4%

Dermatology
US MD Senior: 81.3%
DO: 0.3%

General Surgery
US MD Senior: 83.3%
DO: 1.6%

Ortho
US MD Senior: 91.9%
DO: 0.5%

Plastic Surgery
US MD Senior: 95.5%
DO: 0%


Say what you want, but the numbers don't lie. US MD students have the opposite trend. The more competitive specialties have higher rates of US MD students, whereas the less competitive specialties have more DO and IMGs. There are 3 possible reasons for these stats

1) DO students are stupid
2) DO schools are inadequate
3) DO students have many doors closed to them because of the DO

I would like to think it is number three, but everyone seems to keep saying that being an osteopath closes no doors.

Maybe the percentages are lower because less DOs apply to those residencies...

 

[JaggerPlate]

Listen, personally I think the education you get at a DO school is the same as that at an MD school, but when you apply to residency, the DO student will be at a disadvantage. There is no way around this fact.

If DO students had just as much of a chance as getting into any specialty as US MD students, then the DO students percentage for entering a specialty among all entering students would be the same across all specialties; however, this is not the case.

STATS FROM National Resident Matching Program

Family Medicine
US MD senior: 48.7%
DO: 9.6%

Emergency Medicine
US MD senior: 77.8%
DO: 9.4%

Dermatology
US MD Senior: 81.3%
DO: 0.3%

General Surgery
US MD Senior: 83.3%
DO: 1.6%

Ortho
US MD Senior: 91.9%
DO: 0.5%

Plastic Surgery
US MD Senior: 95.5%
DO: 0%


Say what you want, but the numbers don't lie. US MD students have the opposite trend. The more competitive specialties have higher rates of US MD students, whereas the less competitive specialties have more DO and IMGs. There are 3 possible reasons for these stats

1) DO students are stupid
2) DO schools are inadequate
3) DO students have many doors closed to them because of the DO

I would like to think it is number three, but everyone seems to keep saying that being an osteopath closes no doors.

Waittt ....

Do these stats take into consideration what percent of DOs applied to these slots and matched vs didn't match??? Or are they just really skewed because there are 120 MD schools vs 28 or so MD schools, so far fewer DO applicants??? Doesn't take AOA slots into consideration? I feel like this data doesn't show what you are thinking. However, I'm not reading it well because The Office is on.

 

[Dr Yiot]

Coming from a pre do who is only applying do for certain reasons. I think u would be crazy to not take the md acceptance. Especially since the school u got into is yet to be established. If we were talking pcom or kcom that's another story.

 

[Cheshyre]

Whew. I think I just got my first taste of SDN DO vs. MD bitterness.

It's probably a mix of factors that explain the residency stats. I wholeheartedly agree that DO applicants as a whole likely aren't thinking about doing "lifestyle" specialties. I'm also willing to bet that this is the biggest factor. Given the nature of DO secondary apps, I'm confident successful applicants know exactly where they're headed.

On the other hand, one does have to take into account the generally lower gpa/MCAT averages of matriculants. That said, there are plenty of MD-qualified DO matriculants. Plus, if we want to talk about "stupid" students, we know who's the only one making spelling mistakes in this thread... and coming to the wrong forum... on a Thursday night... to cause trouble. Yeah. Feels like being trapped in a room with rabid pre-meds again.

Related to grades, and correct me if I'm wrong - DO applicants to ACGME residencies are required to take the USMLE, yes? So, preparation for the COMLEX and USMLE has to happen simultaneously. You could say that the tests are on the same knowledge so there should be identical results, but that's foolish. It's like saying the SAT and ACT are the exact same test. Even better - it's like saying that an IQ test is applicable to cross-cultural comparison.

Finally - I'm sure there are biases from the older generation of physicians on both sides.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Glanced over this again ... Physio has it handled, but it's a lot of speculation and not taking AOA spots into account.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Whew. I think I just got my first taste of SDN DO vs. MD bitterness.

That **** cracks me up. Do you know there is a 21.2% medicare reimbursement cut looming, just hanging in the balance to be decided on March 1st, and instead of spending time saying hey MD and DOs, that affects us all ... lets talk about that, we bicker with this stuff. I don't know if the horrible cut-throat, creepy, pre-med mentality ever really leaves some people.

 

[Cheshyre]

Coming from a pre do who is only applying do for certain reasons. I think u would be crazy to not take the md acceptance. Especially since the school u got into is yet to be established. If we were talking pcom or kcom that's another story.

Now that I've done 30+ applications to both MD and DO and thoroughly researched both, I can say I'm done. I would hands-down take a DO undergraduate education. Perhaps I'll consider an MD residency in the future, but I haven't done the research yet on those.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not a "cultist" who's into DO for the sake of being alternative. I think drugs are great. I'm still reading papers on OMM (good thing I have institutional access to journals) to decide my feelings on it.

I've wanted to practice medicine since I was in Jr. High. I always thought I would be an MD. Unfortunately for me, I found out about the DO system in October in the middle of doing MD apps (it's a long and kind of funny story). After weighing the facts (I did a lot of reading), I found that the DO system was right for me. Yes, it has problems and disadvantages, but so does the MD system. The DO system just happens to have problems and disadvantages that are more acceptable to me. I'm willing to take the plunge.

 

[Cheshyre]

That **** cracks me up. Do you know there is a 21.2% medicare reimbursement cut looming, just hanging in the balance to be decided on March 1st, and instead of spending time saying hey MD and DOs, that affects us all ... lets talk about that, we bicker with this stuff. I don't know if the horrible cut-throat, creepy, pre-med mentality ever really leaves some people.

But.. bickering is so much fun.

By the way, you're awesome. Why? The average pre-med (well, you got in so technically you're not a pre-med... it's like you're being born, RIGHT NOW**) knows terribly little about medicine beyond their science classes, GPA, MCAT, LORs, ECs. Medicine doesn't exist in an sealed-for-your-convenience vacuum pack of academia.

On the other hand, I'm not sure if the medical community can do anything about it at the moment (it being trying to fix healthcare in general). I used to be really into politics but now reading about it just kind of... makes me depressed.

**Note: one of my most terrifying experiences was when I was riding in the back of an ambulance with a woman screaming about having to push. When the seen-it-all Paramedic with perpetually half-closed eyelids starts swearing and scrambling for supplies.. yeah.

 

[peppy]

Related to grades, and correct me if I'm wrong - DO applicants to ACGME residencies are required to take the USMLE, yes? So, preparation for the COMLEX and USMLE has to happen simultaneously. You could say that the tests are on the same knowledge so there should be identical results, but that's foolish. It's like saying the SAT and ACT are the exact same test. Even better - it's like saying that an IQ test is applicable to cross-cultural comparison.

DOs are not required to take the USMLE for MD residencies, but some programs do look at applicants who do it more positively. Some programs don't get enough DO applicants to really understand what a good vs. bad COMLEX score is so it can be in your best interest to take the USMLE in order to know you're being judged on the same playing field as the MDs.

Personally, I think that a DO who prepares for the USMLE the way that MD students do is just as capable of scoring well on it.

 

[Cheshyre]

Personally, I think that a DO who prepares for the USMLE the way that MD students do is just as capable of scoring well on it.

But of course. It's just a test after all.

 

[J1515]

Seriously think about this. Not a single DO student earned a residency spot in plastic surgery. There are several DO students that if they had an MD with all other credentials the same, would have earned that spot. This my friends is a big closed door.

First of all you're wrong...a DO matched to allopathic plastics last year in Kansas.

Second, concerning the allopathic match, 177 US MD students applied for plastics. Only 35 non US MD students applied (they combine IMG and DO). One of those 35 applicants was a DO student who ended up matching to the plastics program in Kansas. For all you know that could've been the only DO who applied and the rest could've been IMGs. Not bad considering you claimed this door was completely closed to us poor DOs, eh?

There were only 19 DO/IMG applicants to dermatology this year as opposed to 181 US MD applicants.

You also failed to mention all the osteopathic residencies in these fields that only DO students can match into.

Seriously, just stop speaking about things you have no clue about.

 

[J1515]

Honestly I think you need to go to an MD school over a DO school no matter what. I applied to both, and I have no issues with DO but unless your interested in being a PCP you are going to close some doors/make it a lot harder to get where you need to go.

🙄 I wish SDN would make it so that pre-meds can't give advice.

Listen, personally I think the education you get at a DO school is the same as that at an MD school, but when you apply to residency, the DO student will be at a disadvantage. There is no way around this fact.

Ah good. You must be a DO resident who has been through the DO match since you know this as a fact.

If DO students had just as much of a chance as getting into any specialty as US MD students, then the DO students percentage for entering a specialty among all entering students would be the same across all specialties; however, this is not the case.

False. You obviously haven't taken intro to statistics. There are much fewer DO students applying to begin with. Stop speaking of things you don't know about.

STATS FROM National Resident Matching Program

Family Medicine
US MD senior: 48.7%
DO: 9.6%

Emergency Medicine
US MD senior: 77.8%
DO: 9.4%

Dermatology
US MD Senior: 81.3%
DO: 0.3%

General Surgery
US MD Senior: 83.3%
DO: 1.6%

Ortho
US MD Senior: 91.9%
DO: 0.5%

Plastic Surgery
US MD Senior: 95.5%
DO: 0%

🙄 You haven't counted all the DOs in osteopathic residencies

Say what you want, but the numbers don't lie.

Numbers mean nothing unless you know how to interpret them. You have no idea how to interpret these numbers for the reason I have stated.

There are 3 possible reasons for these stats

1) DO students are stupid
2) DO schools are inadequate
3) DO students have many doors closed to them because of the DO

I would like to think it is number three, but everyone seems to keep saying that being an osteopath closes no doors.

The correct answer is a variation of #1. DO students as a whole have lower test scores and make more excuses. The letters themselves aren't what close doors - it's the individual. As a resident who has been through the match with good board scores and good clinical grades, there were no doors closed to me.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I've heard it's a lot harder for MDs to get those AOA spots.

Haha. Touche salesman.

 

[Instatewaiter]

You also failed to mention all the osteopathic residencies in these fields that only DO students can match into.

Everyone brings up those Osteo residencies in the competitive fields. The thing is those program have almost no spots, with really crappy locations.

For instance plastics has only 6 AOA programs in the country. There are currently only 15 residents in all years of those 6 programs so at most that is just 6 spots a year.

Conversely, there are 75 plastics programs in the ACGME (30 integrated) and there are over 100 spots per year.

Frankly I don't think 6 spots is alot to fall back on.

Even in General Surgery similar things happen. In the ACGME there are 1065 positions per year. The AOA has about 88. So only 7 percent of positions are AOA General surgery positions as opposed to 20% of medical school graduates who are DOs.

 

[Everglide]

Everyone brings up those Osteo residencies in the competitive fields. The thing is those program have almost no spots, with really crappy locations.

For instance plastics has only 6 AOA programs in the country. There are currently only 15 residents in all years of those 6 programs so at most that is just 6 spots a year.

Conversely, there are 75 plastics programs in the ACGME (30 integrated) and there are over 100 spots per year.

Frankly I don't think 6 spots is alot to fall back on.

Even in General Surgery similar things happen. In the ACGME there are 1065 positions per year. The AOA has about 88. So only 7 percent of positions are AOA General surgery positions as opposed to 20% of medical school graduates who are DOs.

Frankly I don't think around 100 spots is a lot to fall back on when you consider how many more MD students there are. Also there were 16 spots (6 programs) for AOA, which is not bad considering how many students there are and DOs can match ACGME.

 

[swamprat]

This argument is so stupid. Put aside everything else more people know MD than DO. So even if residency placement etc was equal, if you could be in a more well-known "group," why would you choose otherwise unless you are one of those weird people from high school who wore black and chains and ate lunch by themselves. Your(myself included) in the pre-osteopathic forum arguing with people in all levels of the DO hierarchy. There are always going to be people that say they chose DO over MD when they really just didn't have the grades or luck to get into an MD school. The joke is that no one will admit it. Before my allo acceptances I was planning on going to CCOM and I was already telling my friends how tough the MD competition was and that I'd rather start med school next year than take a year off and reapply since I am not going for a super competitive field. At an interview at DMUCOM I was talking to several interviewees that were all excited about getting interviews at Creighton and other MD programs. One even joked about an interviewer asking them which would you choose allo or osteo. This happened at other schools I interviewed at too - CCOM, NSUCOM etc. And to top it off, unfortunately my parents(who also see a DO) and they have no affiliation to the medical field except me - kept telling me to submit more secondaries to MD schools and when that first acceptance came in I have never seen my dad happier - and I already had several DO acceptances. So for me, appearance matters and I would rather have a US MD than a US DO. Sorry. OK, time to start ripping this long paragraph apart 😀 - GO

 

[J1515]

Everyone brings up those Osteo residencies in the competitive fields. The thing is those program have almost no spots, with really crappy locations.

Ah, so I see you've interviewed at these places or rotated there. I've rotated there.

For instance plastics has only 6 AOA programs in the country. There are currently only 15 residents in all years of those 6 programs so at most that is just 6 spots a year.

Conversely, there are 75 plastics programs in the ACGME (30 integrated) and there are over 100 spots per year.

I'll say the same thing I said to my misinformed friend earlier - how many DOs apply to plastics? I can tell you no one in my class did. We did have a handful of future surgeons though. I'm assuming you didn't know that you can also go through general surgery and do a plastics fellowship after 5 years if you are really hell bent on this "amazing be all end all" field of medicine /sarcasm off

Frankly I don't think 6 spots is alot to fall back on.

If there are only 10 people applying for plastics it is. See if you can find numbers.

Even in General Surgery similar things happen. In the ACGME there are 1065 positions per year. The AOA has about 88. So only 7 percent of positions are AOA General surgery positions as opposed to 20% of medical school graduates who are DOs.

You forgot 31 DO students matched to allopathic general surgery last cycle. Add that to the 88 per year. Also tell me how many DO applicants applied for surgery overall. Was it 88? Because that gives DOs a 100% match rate.

People can twist and squirm all they want to support their preconceived bias towards DOs. The fact remains that doors are not automatically closed just because you're a DO. This is coming from someone who has been through the process with good board scores and clinical grades vs. MD students or residents who are posting what they've heard. When an individual can't break a 220 on the USMLE it closes doors. When you get to 3rd year and act disinterested it closes doors. When you get to 4th year and don't know how to treat CHF on the floors it closes doors. The school you go to does not close doors.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Frankly I don't think around 100 spots is a lot to fall back on when you consider how many more MD students there are. Also there were 16 spots (6 programs) for AOA, which is not bad considering how many students there are and DOs can match ACGME.

That is one reason why plastics is competitive. If you do a spot per student ratio, the MD plastics programs have 5 times as many spots per graduating medical student. Still, it is a very difficult residency to get.


The point I was making is that there are very, very few osteo programs in those competitive fields so you cannot just fall back on those programs if that is what you want to do. Osteo programs also tend to be in random areas like: Farmington Mills Michigan or Warrensville Heights Ohio or Warren Michigan.

To each his own