Choosing DO OVER MD?

[Cheshyre]

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Philosophy of the school? You have got to be kidding me. Decide what your philosophy/ethics/morals whatever are and stick with them. It doesn't matter at all what a few select faculty think. You won't spend much time with them anyway.

The easiest way to assess philosophy is to be on campus and just take in the atmosphere. I don't put much stock in the mission statements/values published on the school websites except as a starting point.

You might not be around faculty much, but you'll be around students that the faculty interviewed and liked.

Again, if it doesn't matter to you then forget it. Just saying - it wouldn't change my morals at all, but I'm not about to go have dinner with the Westboro Baptist Church.

 

[Cheshyre]

Again, I'm just saying that philosophies look nice on admissions brochures, but in reality don't make an impact on your education. Your own philosophy overrides all of the touchy-feely aspects of the curriculum that the school includes.

Yeah, I said that. Again though, given two schools equal in whatever factors I deem important (for me, academics are top priority), my perceptions of institutional philosophy from the campus visit might be the thing that makes me choose one way or the other. I just wanted to say (using a whole page of text) that there's no reason to immediately dismiss it.

 

[rddoms]

The biggest difference I see with DO's vs. MD's is being hands-on with patients. Because DO's have OTM lab from the beginning, I am guessing that DO's may be more comfortable being hands-on with their patients than MD's, at least during clinical rotations. Whether or not that makes a difference down the road is debatable, but that is one of the few differences that may actually exist.

 

[swamprat]

Wow....I think it is pretty funny how you think no one would choose DO over MD. For some people it just works for them. I have an MD interview coming up and to be honest it doesn't matter if I get accepted or not. I will be going to a great DO school. In the end I will most likely end up doing the DO program because that is what fits my life best.

I usually am not rude on here, but from what I saw of CCOM your personality fits their program perfectly. I thought most of the students were arrogant and rude. There are probably several awesome students there but my experience was terrible.

And to add to another one of your posts about your friend seeing a DO that sucked, there are going to be bad MDs too. I personally think it depends 100% on the person and not the letters behind their name. When it comes down to it I just want to see patients and do the best job I can as a physician. If I didn't make it to med school I was going to do PA school. Let me guess everyone who hates DOs thinks PAs are terrible too. I think a lot of us forget it is about treating people not the stupid letters behind your name.

I don't think you understand I have no qualms with DOs. All I was saying is other people may/do and if you can get into an MD school take it. DO=MD right? If so then why not choose MD, you can't tell me it doesn't make any difference when going for certain programs/fields - even if it is microscopic (don't listen to J-whatever his face is, any doctor will tell you differently. For me, n=10 at least - including DOs). Anyway I also have no problem with PAs or anyone in health care - after all we will all be working together within the next decade. This thread obviously got side tracked like they always do. The OP should choose the school thats best for him/her. I gave my opinion as to why I would and did choose MD over DO. I'm not a DO hater and I never will be, but the small sample of people I have come across equate medical school with MD and quit frankly so did I until sophomore year of college when I first started hearing about the DO degree. It is less well known, that is a fact that I don't need supporting evidence to claim. I have always wanted to be a physician to help, interact and learn from people and that's the most important thing degree aside, but again there just is something about those 2 letters that make people give an arm and a leg to be able to get in and obtain. And that's nothing to do with people trying to match competitive fields like derm. It's probably because most people in today's society are conscious about there own self image and the degree is apart of that even if your patients don't know it - someone will. Don't tell me that you aren't going to enjoy being called "Doctor <last name>" or that you will be hesitant to tell someone you just met that your a physician. Sorry I got a little sidetracked but the point being even for aesthetic reasons people will choose MD over DO set aside the small differences and matching and w.e. else. And again I'll be honest and tell you that I definitely did - I'm interested in EM or gen surgery maybe cardiology - I don't know but those fields esp EM are saturated with DOs at least where I am from.

 

[HimeMomo]

Wow....I think it is pretty funny how you think no one would choose DO over MD. For some people it just works for them. I have an MD interview coming up and to be honest it doesn't matter if I get accepted or not. I will be going to a great DO school. In the end I will most likely end up doing the DO program because that is what fits my life best.

I usually am not rude on here, but from what I saw of CCOM your personality fits their program perfectly. I thought most of the students were arrogant and rude. There are probably several awesome students there but my experience was terrible.

And to add to another one of your posts about your friend seeing a DO that sucked, there are going to be bad MDs too. I personally think it depends 100% on the person and not the letters behind their name. When it comes down to it I just want to see patients and do the best job I can as a physician. If I didn't make it to med school I was going to do PA school. Let me guess everyone who hates DOs thinks PAs are terrible too. I think a lot of us forget it is about treating people not the stupid letters behind your name.

👍 That's exactly what I said in my post =D

 

[HimeMomo]

I'm not a DO hater and I never will be, but the small sample of people I have come across equate medical school with MD and quit frankly so did I until sophomore year of college when I first started hearing about the DO degree. It is less well known, that is a fact that I don't need supporting evidence to claim. I have always wanted to be a physician to help, interact and learn from people and that's the most important thing degree aside, but again there just is something about those 2 letters that make people give an arm and a leg to be able to get in and obtain. ...... It's probably because most people in today's society are conscious about there own self image and the degree is apart of that even if your patients don't know it - someone will. ........Sorry I got a little sidetracked but the point being even for aesthetic reasons people will choose MD over DO set aside the small differences and matching and w.e. else. And again I'll be honest and tell you that I definitely did.

Image doesn't mean everything. If it means so much, you should work for advertising, sales, corporations, the entertainment business, etc.

When it comes to saving lives, whoever can get the job done, gets the job done. NO matter what your last two letters are.

Your talks basically thrives off of the traditions of M.D, the basic framework, the very first of titles given to someone who is a healer. And guess what, a healer is a healer, and it doesn't need an M.D behind it to qualify its quality and power.

People in the world do no depend on M.D physicians from the U.S.A to save them these past civilization years. There are plenty of healers around the world doing their JOB and not worrying about their "reputation" their "two letters at the end", etc.

If you want to follow the traditional path, and be a follower of followers, go ahead. People who really understand healing, and goes beyond that, really are the ones that can call themselves physicians.



BTW, if you are afraid of failing your patients and not doing a good job as a physician in the future, an M.D behind your name is not going to save you any more than any other medical degrees. Wanting to be amongst the well known "M.Ds" doesn't guarantee you in joining the ranks amongst the great physicians of all times. Great physicians are defined by their healing powers, not the school they graduated from nor the M.D attached to their last names.

 

[swamprat]

Image doesn't mean everything. If it means so much, you should work for advertising, sales, corporations, the entertainment business, etc.

When it comes to saving lives, whoever can get the job done, gets the job done. NO matter what your last two letters are.

Your talks basically thrives off of the traditions of M.D, the basic framework, the very first of titles given to someone who is a healer. And guess what, a healer is a healer, and it doesn't need an M.D behind it to qualify its quality and power.

People in the world do no depend on M.D physicians from the U.S.A to save them these past civilization years. There are plenty of healers around the world doing their JOB and not worrying about their "reputation" their "two letters at the end", etc.

If you want to follow the traditional path, and be a follower of followers, go ahead. People who really understand healing, and goes beyond that, really are the ones that can call themselves physicians.



BTW, if you are afraid of failing your patients and not doing a good job as a physician in the future, an M.D behind your name is not going to save you any more than any other medical degrees. Wanting to be amongst the well known "M.Ds" doesn't guarantee you in joining the ranks amongst the great physicians of all times. Great physicians are defined by their healing powers, not the school they graduated from nor the M.D attached to their last names.

read my posts. where do i say MD physicians are better at their job than DO physicians. i don't and i did say most importantly being a physician is about helping people. there are other perks to every career and by you saying oh "help people" blah blah that should be your only reason. thats bs, its a career and a job and people go into medicine for other reasons in addition to helping people.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Putting weight on intangible philosophy (and therefore, philosophy thoroughly based only in perception) may seem absurd only if your goals have nothing to do with it. If we assume that I've had just as much medical exposure as the average pre-med (and how many applicants have done CPR in an emergency situation?) and that goals are created by priorities gained through one's experiences, then we can assume that my goals, although different, are as valid as anybody else's. No, intangible philosophy alone is not the biggest factor for me when considering medical schools. However, given the proper context, it could be what tips the scales.

Quite frankly, the philosophy difference is bullshi*. There is no philosophy difference between MD and DO.

Perhaps you could explain how DOs treat the whole patient, in ways that MDs do not.

It is all just BS that people say to either 1.distinguish DO from MD or 2.make themselves feel better for "choosing" DO.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Quite frankly, the philosophy difference is bullshi*. There is no philosophy difference between MD and DO.

Perhaps you could explain how DOs treat the whole patient, in ways that MDs do not.

It is all just BS that people say to either 1.distinguish DO from MD or 2.make themselves feel better for "choosing" DO.

I think most DO med students, residents, and attendings agree that claiming DOs treat the whole patient while MDs do not (aka the DO philosophy) is kind of insulting, and untrue. The philosophy bit usually gets knocked around more at the pre-med level. Now, I mean if you want to get really into OMM and claim 'structure influences function,' then I could see where people could find some sort of philosophical difference, however, like you said, it's mostly just things people say at a lower level.

 

[J1515]

(don't listen to J-whatever his face is, any doctor will tell you differently. For me, n=10 at least - including DOs).

Wow, a whole 10 people for you? Do you understand how inexperienced you sound? I'd listen to a resident who has been through the process and worked with 1000+ patients and doctors before I listen to a pre-med who talked to 10 people and asked them about DOs. When information is passed from person A to person B to person C, it is often misconstrued and assumptions are made by the time person C receives it. This is why hearsay is worthless. Despite me not agreeing with a certain other poster in this thread, he's a resident who has paid his dues and therefore knows a hell of a lot more than a pre-med and I will respect his opinion.

I asked a new patient in our outpatient clinic yesterday morning how they heard about us. They said they just looked in their insurance company's book of doctors and chose us (despite having that ugly DO next to the doctor's name). But at least you're here to tell me accurate information about my profession that I've already entered because you've spoken to 10 people. I'll be sure to remember your advice when I'm cashing my paycheck next week 👍

Don't tell me that you aren't going to enjoy being called "Doctor <last name>" or that you will be hesitant to tell someone you just met that your a physician.

your immaturity, youth, and naivity shines through. It'll change in a few years, no worries.

And for the record, there is no difference in philosophy. It's all bullcr@p

 

[Cheshyre]

Quite frankly, the philosophy difference is bullshi*. There is no philosophy difference between MD and DO.

Perhaps you could explain how DOs treat the whole patient, in ways that MDs do not.

It is all just BS that people say to either 1.distinguish DO from MD or 2.make themselves feel better for "choosing" DO.

I can see in my previous post that it's poorly worded, but, I don't believe that there's a difference in DO philosophy and MD philosophy in practice. I agree with the principles explicitly laid out in Osteopathic philosophy, but many of those principles, such as holistic care, cannot be taught by institutions. Going above and beyond treating a patient's physical ailment will only happen if the practicing physician chooses to do so.

That said, I am interested in institutional culture. I believe that the members of an institution choose candidates that resemble themselves. They'll choose students and faculty who have similar values. It may be, given the choice between two similar schools, the reason for choosing one over the other.

Finally, I'm dismayed that you chose to say "2.make themselves feel better for "choosing" DO." The connotation of disdain is there. There is nothing wrong about going into the DO system after being rejected from the MD system. As every single medical school rejection letter says, there's an abundance of qualified applicants. Personal issues, previous immaturity, and bad luck may all be factors that result in lower on-paper stats without a corresponding decrease in applicant quality. These applicants are driven in their pursuit of a career in medicine. Not only did they take the emotional cost of rejection, they had the gumption to claw their way back, taking the money and time necessary to improve their applications. It is no small feat. I am exceedingly respectful of them.



Disregard what I wrote in the previous post. I had just woken up when I wrote it. I'm reading it again and it's pretty disjointed and insane.

 

[TexasPhysician]

I think most DO med students, residents, and attendings agree that claiming DOs treat the whole patient while MDs do not (aka the DO philosophy) is kind of insulting, and untrue. The philosophy bit usually gets knocked around more at the pre-med level. Now, I mean if you want to get really into OMM and claim 'structure influences function,' then I could see where people could find some sort of philosophical difference, however, like you said, it's mostly just things people say at a lower level.

Very good point. We all have the same treatment philosophy. Many MD's even refer to OMM specialists, and I've even seen MD's take many courses to learn OMM.

There is no difference in DO/MD. The last stat on OMM I saw was that something like 3% of DO's ever used OMM anyway.

 

[cardiolipin]

As a resident at a great residency program (considered top tier) who also applied to DO school and MD schools (mostly to get the best price and location), I will say that the benefits of going MD are true.

I think most of us will set aside the opinions of which is better, whether or not they're equal, or even whether one is more prestigious. Those arguments don't contribute to the practical answer.

Realistically speaking, DO=MD except DO's have to spend a great amount of years in one lifetime explaining that fact; while MD's use that time to go on vacation. When it comes to the match and competitive specialties, you will always find an exception to the rule and find a DO who matched into derm, plastics, urology, ophtho, ortho, etc. But in all seriousness, DO's are at a huge disadvantage when applying to these places, EVEN with great test scores (high USMLE), grades, research, and connections. If you don't believe me, talk to DO's applying to those specialties and search the forums here - there are many examples of the frustrations (though unfair sometimes) to a person because of the degree.

Most top tier residency places will not even consider a DO to their program - even if it's a less competitive specialty such as internal medicine, pediatrics, or OB-GYN. Places like Stanford, Hopkins, UCSF, UCLA, Northwestern, Columbia, Harvard (Brigham, Mass General, BIDMC) rarely if ever even interview DOs. If you think going to any university associated MD residency is prestigious, think again - it's not. There's a lot of academic snobbery that goes on (whether or not you care) and there are specific university spots you might want.

For some folks, this doesn't matter. You just want a degree with a good residency that will teach you how to be a good doctor. If that's the case, then hey whatever floats your boat - but realize that there may not be any going back in the future. For myself, I was such a person, but just in case I would change my mind, I opted to go to the "highest standard" I possibly could just for options and I'm glad I did.

When I was interviewing for both MD and DO schools, I realized the following disadvantages of DO schools:
1. Incredibly expensive for the most part.
2. Rarely a central rotational experience - a lot of times they go everywhere all over the place for rotations - it gets annoying to move around every rotation.
3. The ability to meet well known clinicians is varied, depending on where you get to go.
4. Less camaraderie because of the moving around - there is something to be said when you can see your classmates on different services (you're the neuro consult for their medicine team) and also interact on campus with 1st and 2nd years.

In the end, I chose an MD school - tuition was 1/3 of the DO tuition, I was close to my gf, got into a top place for residency, and am happy.

Best of luck, but consider the whole picture and your potential future before making a decision!

 

[JaggerPlate]

As a resident at a great residency program (considered top tier) who also applied to DO school and MD schools (mostly to get the best price and location), I will say that the benefits of going MD are true.

I think most of us will set aside the opinions of which is better, whether or not they're equal, or even whether one is more prestigious. Those arguments don't contribute to the practical answer.

Realistically speaking, DO=MD except DO's have to spend a great amount of years in one lifetime explaining that fact; while MD's use that time to go on vacation. When it comes to the match and competitive specialties, you will always find an exception to the rule and find a DO who matched into derm, plastics, urology, ophtho, ortho, etc. But in all seriousness, DO's are at a huge disadvantage when applying to these places, EVEN with great test scores (high USMLE), grades, research, and connections. If you don't believe me, talk to DO's applying to those specialties and search the forums here - there are many examples of the frustrations (though unfair sometimes) to a person because of the degree.

Most top tier residency places will not even consider a DO to their program - even if it's a less competitive specialty such as internal medicine, pediatrics, or OB-GYN. Places like Stanford, Hopkins, UCSF, UCLA, Northwestern, Columbia, Harvard (Brigham, Mass General, BIDMC) rarely if ever even interview DOs. If you think going to any university associated MD residency is prestigious, think again - it's not. There's a lot of academic snobbery that goes on (whether or not you care) and there are specific university spots you might want.

For some folks, this doesn't matter. You just want a degree with a good residency that will teach you how to be a good doctor. If that's the case, then hey whatever floats your boat - but realize that there may not be any going back in the future. For myself, I was such a person, but just in case I would change my mind, I opted to go to the "highest standard" I possibly could just for options and I'm glad I did.

When I was interviewing for both MD and DO schools, I realized the following disadvantages of DO schools:
1. Incredibly expensive for the most part.
2. Rarely a central rotational experience - a lot of times they go everywhere all over the place for rotations - it gets annoying to move around every rotation.
3. The ability to meet well known clinicians is varied, depending on where you get to go.
4. Less camaraderie because of the moving around - there is something to be said when you can see your classmates on different services (you're the neuro consult for their medicine team) and also interact on campus with 1st and 2nd years.

In the end, I chose an MD school - tuition was 1/3 of the DO tuition, I was close to my gf, got into a top place for residency, and am happy.

Best of luck, but consider the whole picture and your potential future before making a decision!

I don't think the craziest, die-hard DO would tell you to pass up a school that cost 1/3 private tuition and was located near your 'family.' These are the factors people continually repeat as important in choosing a school over, and over again. This thread is really starting to get useless because everyone, even if it is super valid, has an n=1 experience. You talk about places like UCSF and UCLA not taking DOs. However, don't you think there are also some ivory towers out there that hand pick people from Ivys and top 10s for their derm, neurosurg, etc programs? Just looked at UCLA's derm program, looked like almost everyone was from a UC school (ranked very highly), and really didn't see anyone from small state schools, no names, etc. Now, is this equal to absolutely no DOs in any FM, IM, OB at UCLA? No, but it just goes to show that there are ALWAYS going to be stuffy old men in white coats who discriminate, and unless you went to Harvard for undergrad, then JH, you'll probably find someone who isn't blown away with your credentials and will want someone else. However, at the end of the day, I guarantee that someone from an AOA derm residency has just as good of odds of setting up a successful derm practice as the guy who went to Yale then did his residency at UCLA.

 

[J1515]

I was originally going to throw my arms up and just bail on this thread, but I want pre-meds to have an accurate picture painted when they're making their decision...You've been slightly misinformed on how things work on the DO side.

Realistically speaking, DO=MD except DO's have to spend a great amount of years in one lifetime explaining that fact; while MD's use that time to go on vacation.

Very rarely happens except on SDN. I've only had 2 patients ask me what it stood for because it says DO on my badge. Are things different in Podunk, Iowa? I don't know. If anyone is a DO in Podunk and wants to speak from experience, I'm listening.

When it comes to the match and competitive specialties, you will always find an exception to the rule and find a DO who matched into derm, plastics, urology, ophtho, ortho, etc. But in all seriousness, DO's are at a huge disadvantage when applying to these places, EVEN with great test scores (high USMLE), grades, research, and connections. If you don't believe me, talk to DO's applying to those specialties and search the forums here - there are many examples of the frustrations (though unfair sometimes) to a person because of the degree.

Most top tier residency places will not even consider a DO to their program - even if it's a less competitive specialty such as internal medicine, pediatrics, or OB-GYN. Places like Stanford, Hopkins, UCSF, UCLA, Northwestern, Columbia, Harvard (Brigham, Mass General, BIDMC) rarely if ever even interview DOs. If you think going to any university associated MD residency is prestigious, think again - it's not. There's a lot of academic snobbery that goes on (whether or not you care) and there are specific university spots you might want.

I can't speak for places on the west coast, but NYCOMers get interviewed and accepted at Yale and Hopkins every year. I have heard that Columbia and a couple of other hospitals in the country still don't like DOs, however I have no problem with this seeing as how the majority of DOs did indeed sneak into medical school with lower MCATs and GPAs. I've said it in other threads and gotten flamed for bashing my own kind, but as long as this discrepancy exists at the undergrad level, it will continue to exist at the post grad level. If you are entering medical school knowing that you need to do residency at Columbia, then I recommend you become an MD. If you're the type of person who always needs to be associated with the most prestigious programs and residencies that will impress others, then go MD.

When I was interviewing for both MD and DO schools, I realized the following disadvantages of DO schools:
1. Incredibly expensive for the most part.

Common misconception. It's the same as many private MD schools. NYMC ($41,500), Harvard ($39,900), UPenn ($41,036) Drexel ($44,000) JHU ($38,000), Duke ($41,000), Univ Chicago ($37,000), Vanderbilt ($38,400) Cornell ($41,730). Of course there are state schools which are cheaper. Granted there are only a few osteopathic state schools (I only know of UMDNJSOM, and if I recall correctly LECOM-E used to be cheap as well but not a state school).

2. Rarely a central rotational experience - a lot of times they go everywhere all over the place for rotations - it gets annoying to move around every rotation.

Another common misconception. There are a few schools with poor 3rd and 4th year experiences that make you move around. The majority of schools you can stay in one place. At NYCOM there was an option to do all 3rd year rotations at a single hospital. Otherwise you could rotate at different hospitals within 15 miles of the school (what I chose). UMDNJSOM which has it's own hospital system and PCOM are the same. This is something anyone should ask about when deciding which school to attend.

4. Less camaraderie because of the moving around - there is something to be said when you can see your classmates on different services (you're the neuro consult for their medicine team) and also interact on campus with 1st and 2nd years.

As stated above, each school has hospital affiliations (not necessarily a hospital system) so students from your school go to the same hospitals. There were always multiple NYCOMers at every hospital I rotated at (I was never the only one) with consults on different services occuring at times as you describe. I'm not sure how this is considered a benefit though...after being trapped with the same people daily for the first two years it would be fine not seeing them everyday anymore lol.

In the end, I chose an MD school - tuition was 1/3 of the DO tuition, I was close to my gf, got into a top place for residency, and am happy.

Best of luck, but consider the whole picture and your potential future before making a decision!

The bolded statement up there is the most important for anyone.

 

[TexasPhysician]

I don't think the craziest, die-hard DO would tell you to pass up a school that cost 1/3 private tuition and was located near your 'family.' These are the factors people continually repeat as important in choosing a school over, and over again. This thread is really starting to get useless because everyone, even if it is super valid, has an n=1 experience. You talk about places like UCSF and UCLA not taking DOs. However, don't you think there are also some ivory towers out there that hand pick people from Ivys and top 10s for their derm, neurosurg, etc programs? Just looked at UCLA's derm program, looked like almost everyone was from a UC school (ranked very highly), and really didn't see anyone from small state schools, no names, etc. Now, is this equal to absolutely no DOs in any FM, IM, OB at UCLA? No, but it just goes to show that there are ALWAYS going to be stuffy old men in white coats who discriminate, and unless you went to Harvard for undergrad, then JH, you'll probably find someone who isn't blown away with your credentials and will want someone else. However, at the end of the day, I guarantee that someone from an AOA derm residency has just as good of odds of setting up a successful derm practice as the guy who went to Yale then did his residency at UCLA.

Derm is going to be highly regional because it is a small specialty. If you do derm at UT-Houston, you still have the credentials to be on faculty at an Ivy program if you want to. There just aren't enough Derm people wanting to take a pay cut to do academics. For that reason, why would I care about doing Stanford derm over somewhere close to my family/friends? There is no reason in derm that I see, hence why UC derm is mainly Cali people and TX derm is mostly TX people. Some people may want to move around for fun, but its not as common. I don't think my school's derm program has taken anyone farther than 1 bordering state in 5 years.

Other specialties are different. Say your life goal is to do academic IM. Unless you plan to specialize, your residency "name" may have a big influence on job opportunities. There are lots of IM people wanting to do academics, and a graduate from Johns Hopkins will have a leg up on someone from Texas Tech. That is just how it is.

Then again if your goals don't involve academics or research, the "name" of your residency may never matter at all.

 

[pinklvr1014]

honestly a doctor is a doctor...what is the difference essentially? A perspective on learning and two little letters at the end of your name.

Maybe my perspective is different because I want to be a PCP, but I didn't even bother with MD schools even thought my GPA could have easily gotten me into one (although MCAT might have been a little harder, lol). I can do without the snobbery of "Im an MD, i go to an MD school". Lets not forget the reason we all want to be doctors in the first place...to help people. Are you really less able to help people because your letters are different? And does a superiority complex make you a better doctor? Please...

Do what you feel is right..what gives you that feeling of "O, wow, i can
see myself doing ____" Dont have regrets either..if you think you will regret it, dont do it. Simple as that. The argument between D.O. and M.D is a personal decision...don't let others and their faulty statistics guide you one way or another. What works best for you? Do that.

Good luck w/ your decision! 🙂

 

[silas2642]

Hey guys-

I was wondering if some of you out there could shed some light on this question for me. I'm currently in the process of interviewing - both at MD and DO schools, and I have a question.

I just visited TouroNY, and I loved it. I think it's the perfect school for me. It's in a great area, it focuses on the underserved community, etc. My question is, is it absolutely crazy if I choose a DO school OVER an MD school? What are the cons to getting residencies? I know there are some, but at this point I don't really even know what residency I would like to get into. And if my scores are good enough, does that really even matter?

Anyone who has any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot, everyone!

Dave

While I wouldn't say that it is crazy to choose a DO school over an MD school, I would say that generally speaking, allopathic schools may be able to provide you with more opportunities than an osteopathic schools. It's just easier to match in an allopathic program in the field of your choice being a US MD grad than a DO.

I would definitely advise you to take everything into serious consideration-- cost, location, curriculum, match lists (although these are notoriously difficult to interpret at your stage in the game). You also want to remember that your interview at Touro was probably just one day-- it may be worth giving this school and others a second look before you take the plunge.

 

[wishintobedoc]

It seems like most people are talking about DOs matching into allopathic residencies. At this point I am planning on doing the normal track of a DO student. I may be wrong, but so far from the little research I have done, there seems to be many DO residency programs in Michigan that are great. I plan on staying in Michigan so it should work for me.

 

[J1515]

It seems like most people are talking about DOs matching into allopathic residencies. At this point I am planning on doing the normal track of a DO student. I may be wrong, but so far from the little research I have done, there seems to be many DO residency programs in Michigan that are great. I plan on staying in Michigan so it should work for me.

Be sure to rotate through the programs you're interested in so you can find out first hand. It's the only way to know.

 

[Instatewaiter]

As it stands now, it seems like the "normal" track for DO students is to go to MD residencies after DO school. More than half DOs choose to do that. I dont have the exact percentage but someone posted them a while back.

Regardless, I would recommend keeping as many doors open no matter what type of school you end up in or what you think you might pursue. Third year is a very funny beast. Many of my classmates thought they would do primary care and did not set themselves up well during their pre-clinical years, their boards and did mediocre on their first few rotations before they realized what they really wanted to do. They are now looking at having to go on twice as many interviews and are worrying about even matching in the field they want.

So no matter if you want that family practice, do everything to make yourself as competitive as possible. That way if you decide to switch and go into ortho you can match and if you stay in family med you can get your first choice no problem.

 

[JaggerPlate]

As it stands now, it seems like the "normal" track for DO students is to go to MD residencies after DO school. More than half DOs choose to do that. I dont have the exact percentage but someone posted them a while back.

Regardless, I would recommend keeping as many doors open no matter what type of school you end up in or what you think you might pursue. Third year is a very funny beast. Many of my classmates thought they would do primary care and did not set themselves up well during their pre-clinical years, their boards and did mediocre on their first few rotations before they realized what they really wanted to do. They are now looking at having to go on twice as many interviews and are worrying about even matching in the field they want.

So no matter if you want that family practice, do everything to make yourself as competitive as possible. That way if you decide to switch and go into ortho you can match and if you stay in family med you can get your first choice no problem.

Again, just good, solid advice ! 👍

 

[Laryngophed]

As it stands now, it seems like the "normal" track for DO students is to go to MD residencies after DO school. More than half DOs choose to do that. I dont have the exact percentage but someone posted them a while back.

Regardless, I would recommend keeping as many doors open no matter what type of school you end up in or what you think you might pursue. Third year is a very funny beast. Many of my classmates thought they would do primary care and did not set themselves up well during their pre-clinical years, their boards and did mediocre on their first few rotations before they realized what they really wanted to do. They are now looking at having to go on twice as many interviews and are worrying about even matching in the field they want.

So no matter if you want that family practice, do everything to make yourself as competitive as possible. That way if you decide to switch and go into ortho you can match and if you stay in family med you can get your first choice no problem.

I'll third this.

Never sell yourself short. Do as well as you can, dominate what you can, when you can and cherry pick your future (as much as possible).

 

[DrD2014]

When it comes to medicine and acceptance into medical school, we all know it's a lot more involving than straight up MCAT and GPA scores. Traditionally, DO schools have been less selective than MD schools on these matters. They tend like non-traditional students.
This said, some things need to be made clear. On average there are way more DO students planning to go into family medicine than MDs planning internal or PCP. This will change the stats in competative residencies.

More competative DO schools actually boast some very competative statistics. For example DMU placed a fantastic chunk of it's students in competative residencies. In fact, 90% of it's student got their first or second desired residency. The average gpa is exactly the same as competative MD schools with MCAT scores a few points behind the MD average, but placing students in competative residencies just like their MD brothers. Also, 80% of the competative residencies were MD residencies. How can someone say that these results are subpar to MD med schools? You just can't (for references contact DMU, they are proud to share the data on paper).

I come from family of successful MD, DO, and DPMs, all of which have surgical practices, minus one of the MDs. All of them competant and capable.
Either DO or MD option is very viable. If you want to be in a competative residency as a DO, then consider one of the DO schools that has an established program and good match records.

Personally I prefer the DO experience and think it will synergize well with orthapedics. I have a GPA in the top 10% of accepted med students and got an MCAT that would qualify me for Harvard. I would be happy to practice medicine as either a DO or MD. DO just fits me better.

We all should prepare to judge the physician by his or her actions as a doctor, not by the two little letters after their name. Doing it any other way just takes us back to ancient medicine and distrust between practitioners. We all tend to want to flaunt our academics etc, but stereotyping shows a lack of self respect and cognitive maturity. Peace all.

 

[TexasPhysician]

More competative DO schools actually boast some very competative statistics. For example DMU placed a fantastic chunk of it's students in competative residencies. In fact, 90% of it's student got their first or second desired residency. The average gpa is exactly the same as competative MD schools with MCAT scores a few points behind the MD average, but placing students in competative residencies just like their MD brothers. Also, 80% of the competative residencies were MD residencies. How can someone say that these results are subpar to MD med schools? You just can't (for references contact DMU, they are proud to share the data on paper).

I come from family of successful MD, DO, and DPMs, all of which have surgical practices, minus one of the MDs. All of them competant and capable.
Either DO or MD option is very viable. If you want to be in a competative residency as a DO, then consider one of the DO schools that has an established program and good match records.

First of all, your numbers aren't competative with Harvard. If anything, they are competitive. You can't brag about being super smart and spell competitive wrong 5 times. Well...I guess you can, but it is less effective.

How do you know DMU students are getting competitive residencies as a pre-med? The top programs are different in every field. You researched them all? Top residencies are not always at top med schools. For instance, I won't be ranking a program at a Top 25 med school. After interviewing there, I would rather reapply next year than end up there. It is still competitive numbers wise because of their research and "name", but I don't want to hate life for 4-5 years. I pity the people who match there.

Your statistic of 90% getting their first choice residency is from where? They don't release those statistics anymore. Your rank list is personal, and therefore you can lie about it all you want. The program you match at won't even know what rank they were on your list.

I'm not denying that DMU is a good school. It certainly is, but you are throwing around opinion as fact.

 

[JaggerPlate]

First of all, your numbers aren't competative with Harvard. If anything, they are competitive. You can't brag about being super smart and spell competitive wrong 5 times. Well...I guess you can, but it is less effective.

How do you know DMU students are getting competitive residencies as a pre-med? The top programs are different in every field. You researched them all? Top residencies are not always at top med schools. For instance, I won't be ranking a program at a Top 25 med school. After interviewing there, I would rather reapply next year than end up there. It is still competitive numbers wise because of their research and "name", but I don't want to hate life for 4-5 years. I pity the people who match there.

Your statistic of 90% getting their first choice residency is from where? They don't release those statistics anymore. Your rank list is personal, and therefore you can lie about it all you want. The program you match at won't even know what rank they were on your list.

I'm not denying that DMU is a good school. It certainly is, but you are throwing around opinion as fact.

Dude, I think he was posting from a phone - aka pain in the ass - cut him some spelling slack. Furthermore, although it is difficult to analyze a match lists (ie what's good - a lot of specialties, or a lot of big names, a lot of first choices, etc), he probably looked at the % specialized and stated the number is quite large, especially with regard to the DO = PCP stereotype.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Decide for yourselves:
http://www.dmu.edu/com/do/strengths/resmatch_list/2009specialty.cfm

 

[Instatewaiter]

Oh and their website does say that nearly 90% get their first 2 choices

 

[Laryngophed]

Oh and their website does say that nearly 90% get their first 2 choices

They provided some info on interview day and from a survey issued by the Dean's office to new graduates, there was an ~89% match of 1st or 2nd choice as reported by the recent grads.

 

[DrBowtie]

They provided some info on interview day and from a survey issued by the Dean's office to new graduates, there was an ~89% match of 1st or 2nd choice as reported by the recent grads.

That is after the self-selection process has occurred. I always find it to be a pretty useless stat since everyone is funneled into their "matchable" specialties post step 1 and then they match into their top 2 in a non-competitive specialty, when they really wanted ortho and just wouldn't match, it doesn't really show any strength of the school.

 

[Laryngophed]

That is after the self-selection process has occurred. I always find it to be a pretty useless stat since everyone is funneled into their "matchable" specialties post step 1 and then they match into their top 2 in a non-competitive specialty, when they really wanted ortho and just wouldn't match, it doesn't really show any strength of the school.

I wasn't validating the approach, merely filling in the backstory. I agree, it's tough to do much with the stat, but it can be helpful as part of a larger set of criteria for school selection.

 

[TexasPhysician]

That is after the self-selection process has occurred. I always find it to be a pretty useless stat since everyone is funneled into their "matchable" specialties post step 1 and then they match into their top 2 in a non-competitive specialty, when they really wanted ortho and just wouldn't match, it doesn't really show any strength of the school.

Exactly......even if the group that did respond to the survey was being truthful.

I've talked to numerous residents that admitted they have lied about where they ranked a program, especially to applicants.

 

[TexasPhysician]

I wasn't validating the approach, merely filling in the backstory. I agree, it's tough to do much with the stat, but it can be helpful as part of a larger set of criteria for school selection.

I guess it depends on how many variables are in your school criteria. I say its much less important than having a good coffee shop nearby.

 

[Laryngophed]

I guess it depends on how many variables are in your school criteria. I say its much less important than having a good coffee shop nearby.

It didn't make my top ten either, but I could see where some people would like to have the info. For instance if a candidate wants to live in City X, State Y they may look to see if there school has any history of matching a student at programs in that area, either giving them info about the sites or giving the sites a (hopefully) positive outlook on that schools "products." We all know its up to the individual student, but I'd imagine PDs like to pick the known product and if School Z has produced prior good residents, they may pick future residents from the school, assuming the applicants have their crap together.

It wasn't a factor for me, but I can see why it would be to some.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Does anybody know if either of those two people doing straight NMM/OMM residencies from DMU are on SDN? I'd be interested to talk to 'em ...

 

[TexasPhysician]

Decide for yourselves:
http://www.dmu.edu/com/do/strengths/resmatch_list/2009specialty.cfm

Straight from this match list there are 2 matches. Which is more competitive?
Fort Collins Family Medicine
Harvard South Shore Psychiatry

The answer is:



Fort Collins Family Medicine. Based on the name you wouldn't think this. I wouldn't be able to make such a comparison with every program on that match list, but I happen to have knowledge of these two programs.

Fort Collins FM is mostly US MD/DO students. A few of them actually have pretty crazy board scores. I have another friend applying Ft. Collins now (it will be #1 for this person), and he is top of our class/AOA.

Harvard South Shore is probably >50% international/foreign medical graduates. It involves tons of commuting to different sites, heavily VA weighted, and has some disgruntled faculty. I know a couple current applicants (not me) who interviewed there and none will rank the program because of current turmoil. Yes, you will have the Harvard name on your diploma and they do probably have more research there than most places. They do have trouble getting good students though. I'm not trying to knock the place - check it out for yourself if you want to apply there. Its just not competitive.

How would pre-meds know this in judging a match list?

 

[TexasPhysician]

It didn't make my top ten either, but I could see where some people would like to have the info. For instance if a candidate wants to live in City X, State Y they may look to see if there school has any history of matching a student at programs in that area, either giving them info about the sites or giving the sites a (hopefully) positive outlook on that schools "products." We all know its up to the individual student, but I'd imagine PDs like to pick the known product and if School Z has produced prior good residents, they may pick future residents from the school, assuming the applicants have their crap together.

It wasn't a factor for me, but I can see why it would be to some.

Even if the school has never sent anyone there, just do an away rotation at the site you may want to go to. That way the program will see you are a hard worker and you can better evaluate if it is a place you want to be.

 

[Laryngophed]

Even if the school has never sent anyone there, just do an away rotation at the site you may want to go to. That way the program will see you are a hard worker and you can better evaluate if it is a place you want to be.

That would be my approach, but I was merely speculating on how a match list could be important. I am a know-nothing pre-med but I'm of the camp that if you want it bad enough, most of the time you can make it happen. If you smoke Step-1 and Step-2 and do well in away rotations, I doubt there are many programs who wouldn't give you an honest chance. But I'm also naive and haven't been through the process, so I could be (and am probably at least partially) wrong.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Straight from this match list there are 2 matches. Which is more competitive?
Fort Collins Family Medicine
Harvard South Shore Psychiatry

The answer is:



Fort Collins Family Medicine. Based on the name you wouldn't think this. I wouldn't be able to make such a comparison with every program on that match list, but I happen to have knowledge of these two programs.

Fort Collins FM is mostly US MD/DO students. A few of them actually have pretty crazy board scores. I have another friend applying Ft. Collins now (it will be #1 for this person), and he is top of our class/AOA.

Harvard South Shore is probably >50% international/foreign medical graduates. It involves tons of commuting to different sites, heavily VA weighted, and has some disgruntled faculty. I know a couple current applicants (not me) who interviewed there and none will rank the program because of current turmoil. Yes, you will have the Harvard name on your diploma and they do probably have more research there than most places. They do have trouble getting good students though. I'm not trying to knock the place - check it out for yourself if you want to apply there. Its just not competitive.

How would pre-meds know this in judging a match list?

Yeah, that's a great example of why it's so hard for people on the pre-medical level (ie US) to judge a matchlist. Not only is it hard to tell which programs are good vs what names we simply know, it's also hard whether to judge lists based on this or based on the number of people going into specialized residencies. Altogether, I think match lists don't show as much about the school as they do about the individual student. You can probably take someone who will match ACGME rads from a DO school, and place them at just about any other DO school in the country, and they will have the drive, determination, intelligence, etc, to make it happen ... ie: school didn't have anything to do with it (technically).

 

[TexasPhysician]

They provided some info on interview day and from a survey issued by the Dean's office to new graduates, there was an ~89% match of 1st or 2nd choice as reported by the recent grads.

Years ago, the NRMP actually provided the schools with this information. This made the statistic borderline useful.

Now there are too many variables in the statistic to get anything out of it. Those that matched poorly don't want to participate, lie, etc.

 

[TexasPhysician]

That would be my approach, but I was merely speculating on how a match list could be important. I am a know-nothing pre-med but I'm of the camp that if you want it bad enough, most of the time you can make it happen. If you smoke Step-1 and Step-2 and do well in away rotations, I doubt there are many programs who wouldn't give you an honest chance. But I'm also naive and haven't been through the process, so I could be (and am probably at least partially) wrong.

You are mostly correct. There will always be a few programs that have a bias, only take their own students, etc. This doesn't mean you still can't match in whatever field at a great program.

I was considering going on an interview at one particular program that only takes 4 residents/year. Turns out that the program has 7 applicants from their own school this year. It was just not worth my time and money. They will probably still interview 40ish applicants to be sure they fill, but I bet they fill internally (like they did the past 2 years). This program is in the rural south. Obviously this is the exception to the norm.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Yeah, that's a great example of why it's so hard for people on the pre-medical level (ie US) to judge a matchlist. Not only is it hard to tell which programs are good vs what names we simply know, it's also hard whether to judge lists based on this or based on the number of people going into specialized residencies. Altogether, I think match lists don't show as much about the school as they do about the individual student. You can probably take someone who will match ACGME rads from a DO school, and place them at just about any other DO school in the country, and they will have the drive, determination, intelligence, etc, to make it happen ... ie: school didn't have anything to do with it (technically).

Exactly. Which is why pre-meds should pick the school where he/she believes they would perform the best (curriculum, location, family support nearby, etc.)......not where other students have done best.

Some students may learn better in PBL, others in traditional lecture, and others skipping lecture all together. Some students would love to go to Mayo med school. I would be miserable in the cold weather, far away from friends/family, etc.

Go somewhere you feel you would do best.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Exactly. Which is why pre-meds should pick the school where he/she believes they would perform the best (curriculum, location, family support nearby, etc.)......not where other students have done best.

Some students may learn better in PBL, others in traditional lecture, and others skipping lecture all together. Some students would love to go to Mayo med school. I would be miserable in the cold weather, far away from friends/family, etc.

Go somewhere you feel you would do best.

qft

(and a small addition ... with DO schools, students should also research the 3/4 year clinicals carefully)

 

[Heidiho]

Most top tier residency places will not even consider a DO to their program - even if it's a less competitive specialty such as internal medicine, pediatrics, or OB-GYN. Places like Stanford, Hopkins, UCSF, UCLA, Northwestern, Columbia, Harvard (Brigham, Mass General, BIDMC) rarely if ever even interview DOs. If you think going to any university associated MD residency is prestigious, think again - it's not. There's a lot of academic snobbery that goes on (whether or not you care) and there are specific university spots you might want.

OK, I'm not jumping in on the whole DO vs MD argument, but this is the most ridiculous statement ever. Really. I went to Hopkins undergrad and worked at Hopkins Hospital for 7 years, in both the Oncology Center and Pathology Dept and I can tell you that there were several DO residents there during my seven years and several DOs working there in various capacities after residency. I hardly think my seven-year tenure was unusual in that regard. I'm just not that unique.

 

[TexasPhysician]

OK, I'm not jumping in on the whole DO vs MD argument, but this is the most ridiculous statement ever. Really. I went to Hopkins undergrad and worked at Hopkins Hospital for 7 years, in both the Oncology Center and Pathology Dept and I can tell you that there were several DO residents there during my seven years and several DOs working there in various capacities after residency. I hardly think my seven-year tenure was unusual in that regard. I'm just not that unique.

I've seen them at Vandy and Duke and Emory......

 

[Instatewaiter]

Straight from this match list there are 2 matches. Which is more competitive?
Fort Collins Family Medicine
Harvard South Shore Psychiatry

I would actually argue that neither are really noteworthy. I imagine anyone in the middle or even bottom of a class could match to either place. Not exactly what I was talking about.

OK, I'm not jumping in on the whole DO vs MD argument, but this is the most ridiculous statement ever. Really. I went to Hopkins undergrad and worked at Hopkins Hospital for 7 years, in both the Oncology Center and Pathology Dept and I can tell you that there were several DO residents there during my seven years and several DOs working there in various capacities after residency. I hardly think my seven-year tenure was unusual in that regard. I'm just not that unique.

You know, I dont think he was saying that there are absolutely no DOs but just that there is a strong institutional bias in these programs.

For the record, you were right about Hopkins. There ARE several DOs there- 17 to be exact (I was bored). Of course there are 1,737 doctors there. I think given these numbers anyone would be hard pressed to say that it really is a level playing field.

 

[Dr Yiot]

I would actually argue that neither are really noteworthy. I imagine anyone in the middle or even bottom of a class could match to either place. Not exactly what I was talking about.



You know, I dont think he was saying that there are absolutely no DOs but just that there is a strong institutional bias in these programs.

For the record, you were right about Hopkins. There ARE several DOs there- 17 to be exact (I was bored). Of course there are 1,737 doctors there. I think given these numbers anyone would be hard pressed to say that it really is a level playing field.

yes but greater than 50% of JHU medical graduates stay at JHU for thier residency, this might also explain the large number of MD's. The fact that there are 17 DO's IS very impressive and shows no bias imo. JHU has some killer applicants from the upper tier MD schools apply there all the time. Despite this, they still take DO's. No bias imho. I'm not saying it doesnt happen at all or at medical powerhouses similar to JH but just that most programs at JH have no bias. Plus what I have read when choosing residency is mostly location, lets not forget that and lets not forget who the heck would want to match at JH in a craphole city like baltimore, again this is JMO but I'm sure some graduates feel the same way....

 

[Heidiho]

You know, I dont think he was saying that there are absolutely no DOs but just that there is a strong institutional bias in these programs.

For the record, you were right about Hopkins. There ARE several DOs there- 17 to be exact (I was bored). Of course there are 1,737 doctors there. I think given these numbers anyone would be hard pressed to say that it really is a level playing field.

WHat he said was that places like Hopkins ......"rarely if ever even interview DOs...." which is a ridiculous statement.



And hey, DR Yiot, Baltimore is a fun city! Gotta show some Charm City love.....🙂

 

[Mackey]

So... some people are taking match lists, finding a couple good residency matchs, and crusading behind them. With that as the background, yes, if you are the very top of your class, you do not have doors closed to you. Go forth and cure AIDS

There is nothing wrong with having confidence in yourself, but if you just completed undergrad with a decent GPA and a decent MCAT, what makes you think you're going to become a stellar, top 5% of your class, medical student?

Did that sound pessimistic? Oh my...

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

So... some people are taking match lists, finding a couple good residency matchs, and crusading behind them. With that as the background, yes, if you are the very top of your class, you do not have doors closed to you. Go forth and cure AIDS

There is nothing wrong with having confidence in yourself, but if you just completed undergrad with a decent GPA and a decent MCAT, what makes you think you're going to become a stellar, top 5% of your class, medical student?

Did that sound pessimistic? Oh my...

You mock people taking match lists and crusading behind them, then you turn around and take a stereotype and apply it to every DO student and do just the same.

And no it didn't sound pessimistic, it sounded hypocritical.👍