MD & DO Co’22 ERAS Panic Thread

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Coltuna said:
Lol I'm only familiar with this in regards to fantasy football. I've always been curious what it means. In fantasy football, Konami code refers to when you have a quarterback who also runs with the ball a lot. How does this relate?
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That’s an excellent question. I honestly don’t know how it relates to fantasy football XD

Konami is an old video game publisher who popularized cheat codes back in the Nintendo days (aka Famicom)

This is like mid 80s stuff though… very old
 
Coltuna said:
. In fantasy football, Konami code refers to when you have a quarterback who also runs with the ball a lot. How does this relate?
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Games published by Konami had a cheat code. Some games were considered unbeatable without the code.

It's saying that having a running qb is like having the cheat code that makes you invulnerable or have unlimited lives.

For the record, it's up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A.
 
I have noticed an inconsistency amongst programs in the form of the pre-interview confidentiality agreement. Some send a form in advance of the interview, some on the day of the interview, and some have not sent one at all.

Is this typical? Is there any obligation on my part to reach out?
 
TakotsuboOkazaki said:
I have noticed an inconsistency amongst programs in the form of the pre-interview confidentiality agreement. Some send a form in advance of the interview, some on the day of the interview, and some have not sent one at all.

Is this typical? Is there any obligation on my part to reach out?
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Nah I've only had 3 programs want them signed out of... a lot more than 3
 
Steve_Zissou said:
that likely reflects some characteristic traits that I would find to be undesirable in a co-resident
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Honestly I’d rather be co-residents with this person than a co-resident that vocalizes how their opinion is much more ethical and the right way to be and then judges someone else for having a differing opinion
 
Ganon said:
That’s an excellent question. I honestly don’t know how it relates to fantasy football XD

Konami is an old video game publisher who popularized cheat codes back in the Nintendo days (aka Famicom)

This is like mid 80s stuff though… very old
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Y’all are too young for me. Big rip.
 
Ganon said:
That’s how I felt every day in preclinical.

I’m older than the residents who teach me, now.
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I’m older than the fellows who were teaching me 😅 Doesn’t change the fact that I have a lot to learn from them though
 
Ganon said:
That’s how I felt every day in preclinical.

I’m older than the residents who teach me, now.
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stickgirl390 said:
I’m older than the fellows who were teaching me 😅 Doesn’t change the fact that I have a lot to learn from them though
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I’m older than some of the attendings who have taught me lol.
 
ohmanwaddup said:
super jelly of our military match friends, but also not jealous that they have to wait 6+ months post match to start residency
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Grass is always greener. There are literally only 3 obgyn programs I can apply to and only 7 spots. Approximately 30 people apply for those 7 spots, or a 23% match rate.
 
DrStephenStrange said:
Dang, I always thought military match was a sure thing.
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Matching something somewhere is guaranteed for usuhs students. Doesn’t mean it will be your first or second choice.

Edit: we get good mentorship and generally people self select into applying for their first and second choices that they’re competitive for. I think like 86% get their first choice specialty and greater than 90% get first or second choice.

But for someone wanting to do obgyn, that second choice might be a gen surg year or ty.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Matching something somewhere is guaranteed for usuhs students. Doesn’t mean it will be your first or second choice.

Edit: we get good mentorship and generally people self select into applying for their first and second choices that they’re competitive for. I think like 86% get their first choice specialty and greater than 90% get first or second choice.

But for someone wanting to do obgyn, that second choice might be a gen surg year or ty.
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Do they not enter the civilian match if they don't match military?
 
treatem-and-streetem said:
Do they not enter the civilian match if they don't match military?
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HPSP/HSCP students do. USUHS students are legally and contractually guaranteed a military spot. Very few of us enter the civilian match. Typically fewer than 10 out of 173 students.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
HPSP/HSCP students do. USUHS students are legally and contractually guaranteed a military spot. Very few of us enter the civilian match. Typically fewer than 10 out of 173 students.
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So you're guaranteed a residency spot but it might not be the specialty you want?
 
Jackaleauxpe said:
So you're guaranteed a residency spot but it might not be the specialty you want?
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Correct. But again, close to or greater than 90% get their first choice specialty and location. So it works out well for most people. But if you’re the 10% who don’t match your preferred specialty, it probably isn’t a great feeling.
 
fldoctorgirl said:
You can tell them you're ranking them #1, and they can respond saying they're ranking you highly or "see you in July!" or something like that. The rule is that neither party (program or applicant) can directly ask the other where they're ranked.
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Wait do thy actually give you huge clues like this? Is that typical or rare?
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Grass is always greener. There are literally only 3 obgyn programs I can apply to and only 7 spots. Approximately 30 people apply for those 7 spots, or a 23% match rate.
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Yeah Navy pediatrics was similar the year I applied. For pgy-1, we had 35 apply for 12 spots, so about 34% match rate for a specialty that’s basically the easiest civilian specialty to match into.

We had to apply for our pgy-2 position during intern year. Out of 12 pediatric interns, only 2 were selected to go straight through. And it wasn’t merit based for those 2, I was the pediatric intern of the year but didn’t get one of those 2 spots. The rest of us were sent out to the fleet to work as primary care/urgent care doctors for ships/squadrons with our basic unrestricted medical lisence even though we didnt have any board certification. Planning on applying to the civilian match for pediatrics next cycle when my Navy contact is completed.

Military match is mysterious. That is the best adjective to describe it. The more you prove you are a good doctor, the more likely you’ll find yourself on the front line somewhere since they need someone they can trust out there and they don’t really care what you want to do.
 
pawprint said:
Yeah Navy pediatrics was similar the year I applied. For pgy-1, we had 35 apply for 12 spots, so about 34% match rate for a specialty that’s basically the easiest civilian specialty to match into.

We had to apply for our pgy-2 position during intern year. Out of 12 pediatric interns, only 2 were selected to go straight through. And it wasn’t merit based for those 2, I was the pediatric intern of the year but didn’t get one of those 2 spots. The rest of us were sent out to the fleet to work as primary care/urgent care doctors for ships/squadrons with our basic unrestricted medical lisence even though we didnt have any board certification. Planning on applying to the civilian match for pediatrics next cycle when my Navy contact is completed.

Military match is mysterious. That is the best adjective to describe it. The more you prove you are a good doctor, the more likely you’ll find yourself on the front line somewhere since they need someone they can trust out there and they don’t really care what you want to do.
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They’ve finally started the switch to straight through. A number of spots were straight through this year, including in peds. 4 of the 7 spots for obgyn were categorical. Only took 30 years.
 
MedScat said:
Wait do thy actually give you huge clues like this? Is that typical or rare?
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Just depends. I know some people who have gotten responses like this and some who didn't hear back at all but still matched their #1.
 
NotAProgDirector said:
Don't read anything into statements like this. I usually politely answer emails like this no matter where you are on the rank list.
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In your own experience, do Letters of Intent stating to programs that they are number 1 usually help candidates or is it for the most part overrated?
 
pawprint said:
Yeah Navy pediatrics was similar the year I applied. For pgy-1, we had 35 apply for 12 spots, so about 34% match rate for a specialty that’s basically the easiest civilian specialty to match into.

We had to apply for our pgy-2 position during intern year. Out of 12 pediatric interns, only 2 were selected to go straight through. And it wasn’t merit based for those 2, I was the pediatric intern of the year but didn’t get one of those 2 spots. The rest of us were sent out to the fleet to work as primary care/urgent care doctors for ships/squadrons with our basic unrestricted medical lisence even though we didnt have any board certification. Planning on applying to the civilian match for pediatrics next cycle when my Navy contact is completed.

Military match is mysterious. That is the best adjective to describe it. The more you prove you are a good doctor, the more likely you’ll find yourself on the front line somewhere since they need someone they can trust out there and they don’t really care what you want to do.
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Got an interview with Uniform Services very early in the med school interview cycle 2 years ago, but did not attend because because of what was stated above. Are most USUHS grads lifers?
 
MDMechEngr said:
Got an interview with Uniform Services very early in the med school interview cycle 2 years ago, but did not attend because because of what was stated above. Are most USUHS grads lifers?
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Not a great reason to not go to USUHS. Again, 90% match their first choice specialty in their first choice program, and everyone matches.

Not being sure of long term military service is a better reason since the commitment is seven years versus four. But approximately 75% of USUHS grads end up serving 20 years. I think that’s a mix of people just selecting for usuhs because they want a career and people finishing residency and their commitment and being within 5-6 years of retirement anyway.
 
Programs rarely has time to respond to applicants' emails, how are they even able to cross-check if an applicant is sending LOI(your my #1 program to more than 1 program?) . Is this just a myth we are told by programs because they would hate if applicants play them similarly to the same way they played us?
 
Chelsea FC said:
Programs rarely has time to respond to applicants' emails, how are they even able to cross-check if an applicant is sending LOI(your my #1 program to more than 1 program?) . Is this just a myth we are told by programs because they would hate if applicants play them similarly to the same way they played us?
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1. Don’t listen to programs, it shouldn’t affect your rank
2. Send only one letter of intent (be honest)
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Just based on the algorithm, there is no benefit gained for the applicant by being dishonest.
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Is this true? It seems that these letters sway some programs. So if u send it to your top 3 maybe 1 out of your top 3 wont care but it might bump you up the rank order for other programs ensuring you match within your top 3. Am i missing something?
 
Chelsea FC said:
Is this true? It seems that these letters sway some programs. So if u send it to your top 3 maybe 1 out of your top 3 wont care but it might bump you up the rank order for other programs ensuring you match within your top 3. Am i missing something?
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Earlier @NotAProgDirector said that PDs get the list of where all candidates they have interviewed match at, so if you told multiple programs they are your number 1, the ones that aren't really #1 will find out if they dip lower than your rank on their lists.
 
Chelsea FC said:
Is this true? It seems that these letters sway some programs. So if u send it to your top 3 maybe 1 out of your top 3 wont care but it might bump you up the rank order for other programs ensuring you match within your top 3. Am i missing something?
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Like literally by the mathematics and constraints of the algorithm, the applicant can’t benefit from being deceptive. That doesn’t mean the programs can’t feel burned.
 
DrStephenStrange said:
Earlier @NotAProgDirector said that PDs get the list of where all candidates they have interviewed match at, so if you told multiple programs they are your number 1, the ones that aren't really #1 will find out if they dip lower than your rank on their lists.
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Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Like literally by the mathematics and constraints of the algorithm, the applicant can’t benefit from being deceptive. That doesn’t mean the programs can’t feel burned.
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Gotcha! Makes perfect sense!
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Like literally by the mathematics and constraints of the algorithm, the applicant can’t benefit from being deceptive. That doesn’t mean the programs can’t feel burned.
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I'm not sure this is true - it's less about the algorithm and more about whether any programs actually care

if you send a LOI to a program that originally had you ranked lower, and they moved you up into ranked-to-match territory, you could go from not matching with them to matching there. in theory, if you were worried about not matching, you could deceptively tell all the programs they are your number one and hope that enough of them move you higher on the list that you'll feel safer about matching. but that's a slimy thing to do (and many programs do not actually care and won't move you)

edit: for an extreme example that illustrates what I mean, Applicant A applies to programs 1, 2, and 3 (ranked in that order). Applicant A is originally ranked dead last at every program and wouldn't have matched. however, Applicant A tells every program they are his number one choice. program 1 doesn't care, but programs 2 and 3 are so enamored by this attention that they move him to #1 on their lists. Applicant A now matches at number 2, benefiting from being deceptive. program 3 is sad.

obviously this is a very fake example and it doesn't really matter in the end
 
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Sadly, I'm going to agree with @Chelsea FC here. Based only upon the match, it's in your best interest to tell multiple programs that you are their number 1. As mentioned above, some programs may ignore it and then no benefit. But if some increase your ranking based upon it (which they really shouldn't do -- their best ranking strategy is to rank applicants in the order they want, ignoring applicant preferences), perhaps because they want bragging rights of "I filled in my top X spots", you may benefit from telling multiple programs.

Can this hurt you? Probably not. PD's are not likely to compare notes. When you match somewhere and other programs are upset because you clearly lied, there isn't much they can do. But they could send copies of your #1 email (to them) to your new PD. GME is a small world, many PD's know each other. Your new PD might see this as unprofessional behavior. You won't lose your match over it -- but you will start with a big strike against you -- not a great way to start a new job, and you'll be in trouble if anything similar happens again.

It's also possible they could report this to your medical school. Would they consider it unprofessional enough to cause a problem? Probably not. But it could.

So the main point is this: If you send multiple #1 emails, you'll then start worrying after the match that this was going to come back to haunt you. You really don't want that. So send one, or none, and live with it. My 2 cents. That and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.. Not at Starbucks, but somewhere. Not good coffee, but you can't have everything.
 
I mean that seems to make sense, except the Gale-Shapley algorithm is a truth mechanism from the perspective of the applicant, and Dubins and Freedman demonstrated in 1981 that an applicant lying about their rank list will match no higher than if they went by their honest match list.

Now the situation in which it could help is in collusion. So it is true that if multiple people are being dishonest, it can result in some students matching better. However, by the nature of the algorithm, not all students can benefit and while some will perform better, an equal number must perform no better than they would have.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
I mean that seems to make sense, except the Gale-Shapley algorithm is a truth mechanism from the perspective of the applicant, and Dubins and Freedman demonstrated in 1981 that an applicant lying about their rank list will match no higher than if they went by their honest match list.

Now the situation in which it could help is in collusion. So it is true that if multiple people are being dishonest, it can result in some students matching better. However, by the nature of the algorithm, not all students can benefit and while some will perform better, an equal number must perform no better than they would have.
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that's a different scenario than what we're talking about with LOIs. I'm looking at the paper you're referencing, and what they mean by "lying" appears to be the equivalent of submitting a rank list that is not based on your actual preferences, but some other order you think will help you game the system. this does not effect anyone else's rank lists (programs or other applicants). and in this case yes, it is very true that lying can really only hurt the applicant. it is always in your best interest to rank in your true order of preference

However, lying in the sense of sending an letter saying "you're my number 1!" to a place that is not actually your top choice could have an actual impact on other parts of the equation (namely, where the program ranks you) in which case it could have an actual benefit as discussed in previous posts. It's just a kinda skeezy thing to do.
 
TelemarketingEnigma said:
However, lying in the sense of sending an letter saying "you're my number 1!" to a place that is not actually your top choice could have an actual impact on other parts of the equation (namely, where the program ranks you) in which case it could have an actual benefit as discussed in previous posts. It's just a kinda skeezy thing to do.
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If I recall correctly (been a while since I have read them), if you read the end of the paper, there is a scenario discussed in which a player uses a different rank list than the one they tell the people they are ranking, and it doesn’t provide any benefit.

But again, the more realistic scenario is that there is a group of students doing that versus just one. In that case, you’re right and some students will see a benefit.
 
NotAProgDirector said:
Sadly, I'm going to agree with @Chelsea FC here. Based only upon the match, it's in your best interest to tell multiple programs that you are their number 1. As mentioned above, some programs may ignore it and then no benefit. But if some increase your ranking based upon it (which they really shouldn't do -- their best ranking strategy is to rank applicants in the order they want, ignoring applicant preferences), perhaps because they want bragging rights of "I filled in my top X spots", you may benefit from telling multiple programs.

Can this hurt you? Probably not. PD's are not likely to compare notes. When you match somewhere and other programs are upset because you clearly lied, there isn't much they can do. But they could send copies of your #1 email (to them) to your new PD. GME is a small world, many PD's know each other. Your new PD might see this as unprofessional behavior. You won't lose your match over it -- but you will start with a big strike against you -- not a great way to start a new job, and you'll be in trouble if anything similar happens again.

It's also possible they could report this to your medical school. Would they consider it unprofessional enough to cause a problem? Probably not. But it could.

So the main point is this: If you send multiple #1 emails, you'll then start worrying after the match that this was going to come back to haunt you. You really don't want that. So send one, or none, and live with it. My 2 cents. That and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.. Not at Starbucks, but somewhere. Not good coffee, but you can't have everything.
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Makes perfect sense thanks! It’s just frustrating that’s it’s viewed as unprofessional on the applicants part but programs send post interview love letters to tons of applicants who end up burned after ranking them #1 and not matching. Even if they do t say specifically to applicants your our #1 it Doesn’t seem like equal footing.
 
Chelsea FC said:
Makes perfect sense thanks! It’s just frustrating that’s it’s viewed as unprofessional on the applicants part but programs send post interview love letters to tons of applicants who end up burned after ranking them #1 and not matching. Even if they do t say specifically to applicants your our #1 it Doesn’t seem like equal footing.
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Because it isn’t. Programs can benefit by being dishonest and causing applicants to use a “false” rank list.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
If I recall correctly (been a while since I have read them), if you read the end of the paper, there is a scenario discussed in which a player uses a different rank list than the one they tell the people they are ranking, and it doesn’t provide any benefit.

But again, the more realistic scenario is that there is a group of students doing that versus just one. In that case, you’re right and some students will see a benefit.
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this is the paper i'm looking at Machiavelli and the Gale-Shapley Algorithm on JSTOR

none of these scenarios have the student's "lies" affecting the program's rank list. it's not applicable to the LOI discussion because it's purely about "lying" via rank list ordering. if you do something that affects a programs rank list in you favor (send a convincing LOI, hack into their system and change their rank list to put yourself at the top, etc), you CAN see a benefit. it's just morally preferable to obtain that benefit through honesty (sending LOI to your actual top program) than dishonesty (sending LOIs to every program). that's what we were discussing.
 
TelemarketingEnigma said:
this is the paper i'm looking at Machiavelli and the Gale-Shapley Algorithm on JSTOR

none of these scenarios have the student's "lies" affecting the program's rank list. it's not applicable to the LOI discussion because it's purely about "lying" via rank list ordering. if you do something that affects a programs rank list in you favor (send a convincing LOI, hack into their system and change their rank list to put yourself at the top, etc), you CAN see a benefit. it's just morally preferable to obtain that benefit through honesty (sending LOI to your actual top program) than dishonesty (sending LOIs to every program). that's what we were discussing.
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Yeah it’s been a while so I was prob just misremembering the paper.
 
TelemarketingEnigma said:
yeah i also think the terminology is confusing which doesn't help haha. "lying" sounds like something more sinister than what they really mean
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Yeah I mean I have a math degree, so I understand what they’re saying. I just was remembering them also discussing a scenario in which the student or university communicated false info to the other party. Must have been thinking of something completely different.
 
For planning purposes, any opinions on when to send a letter of intent? I'm assuming during the first two weeks of February?
 
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