MD & DO Co’22 ERAS Panic Thread

Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine
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Chelsea FC said:
I’m still peeved that applicants try to game programs is viewed as unprofessional(which I agree with) but programs do it routinely. Guess that’s life for yah!
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What do you mean when you say programs are gaming applicants?

I've gotten lots of "we would love to have you here" and "you would be a great fit" but those mean nothing and I would not consider it "gaming" students. Hell, I tell programs that I would love to match there, which is true, and that I think I would be a great fit for their program, which is also true, but I am not mentioning their standing on my rank list. That being said, even a "ranked to match" emails has some plausible deniability since they are basing that statement off of their previous year matches, so you may not match whereas you might have the past 5 (or however many) years. Either way, a "ranked to match" email seems like the only statement that programs can tell you which really holds any sort of weight, and from what I understand, it is rather rare to get one.

I guess I'm just missing the "gaming" here.
 
Steve_Zissou said:
That being said, even a "ranked to match" emails has some plausible deniability since they are basing that statement off of their previous year matches,
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I mean they know how many spots they have. If they rank you lower than that, you aren’t really ranked to match in my book.
 
Steve_Zissou said:
What do you mean when you say programs are gaming applicants?

I've gotten lots of "we would love to have you here" and "you would be a great fit" but those mean nothing and I would not consider it "gaming" students. Hell, I tell programs that I would love to match there, which is true, and that I think I would be a great fit for their program, which is also true, but I am not mentioning their standing on my rank list. That being said, even a "ranked to match" emails has some plausible deniability since they are basing that statement off of their previous year matches, so you may not match whereas you might have the past 5 (or however many) years. Either way, a "ranked to match" email seems like the only statement that programs can tell you which really holds any sort of weight, and from what I understand, it is rather rare to get one.

I guess I'm just missing the "gaming" here.
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Programs know that they can use these language to influence applicants , they will send them to more applicants than their ranked to match list is and those applicants will get burned come match day. They have the luxury to be vague but the intent is the same .
 
Chelsea FC said:
Programs know that they can use these language to influence applicants , they will send them to more applicants than their ranked to match list is and those applicants will get burned come match day. They have the luxury to be vague but the intent is the same .
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There’s definitely a power differential, but nothing is patently false therefor it’s not unprofessional. Telling 10 programs that they’re your number 1 is blatantly lying.

Also, the lesson to be learned here is “don’t let any flowery language influence your ranking decisions.”
 
Steve_Zissou said:
There’s definitely a power differential, but nothing is patently false therefor it’s not unprofessional. Telling 10 programs that they’re your number 1 is blatantly lying.

Also, the lesson to be learned here is “don’t let any flowery language influence your ranking decisions.”
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I think lying and deceiving applicants are pretty much the same when it comes to unprofessional behavior. The intention of their communication is to influence applicants knowing full well they might not match and they send those letters to more than their rank list a lot of the times .they don’t have to say ranking#1 like applicants have to but their communication have the same impact but they are allowed to mislead applicants and face no consequence of appearing unprofessional.
 
Chelsea FC said:
I think lying and deceiving applicants are pretty much the same when it comes to unprofessional behavior. The intention of their communication is to influence applicants knowing full well they might not match and they send those letters to more than their rank list a lot of the times .they don’t have to say ranking#1 like applicants have to but their communication have the same impact but they are allowed to mislead applicants and face no consequence of appearing unprofessional.
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Since they get a report saying where the people they rank end up, I think we should get a report that Includes every program on our list showing our rank at each program where we did not match, so applicants can be a little more aware.

If tons of people are getting “see you in July!” at a small program and getting ranked 50+, it would be nice to see that on a spreadsheet vs. a couple people who matched there reporting that they got that email. Obviously those spreadsheets are prone to some deceit too, but it would still be a nice data point to have.
 
calivianya said:
Since they get a report saying where the people they rank end up, I think we should get a report that Includes every program on our list showing our rank at each program where we did not match, so applicants can be a little more aware.

If tons of people are getting “see you in July!” at a small program and getting ranked 50+, it would be nice to see that on a spreadsheet vs. a couple people who matched there reporting that they got that email. Obviously those spreadsheets are prone to some deceit too, but it would still be a nice data point to have.
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This also doesn't seem equivalent. I get the angst, but they get a list of where we matched, not where we ranked them, correct? If that's the case, then us seeing a list of who they matched seems to be pretty fair.
 
Steve_Zissou said:
This also doesn't seem equivalent. I get the angst, but they get a list of where we matched, not where we ranked them, correct? If that's the case, then us seeing a list of who they matched seems to be pretty fair.
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I agree that it‘s not quite equivalent, but applicants can’t really lie and programs can since the algorithm is applicant proposing.

For example, if we said we ranked them #1, they rank us #1 as a result, and we don’t match there, they know we lied, 100%. If they say “ranked to match,” we don’t know for sure if they lied if we don’t match there. I agree with your example earlier - if a program with five spots usually fills at rank 20, rank 20 is ranked to match. If they happened to fill at 15, it may feel like they lied, but they didn’t - they just filled higher than normal.

The only way to know if they lied is to see where they ranked us, and have the data for how far down their rank list they usually go to fill. If they usually fill at 20 and send us a ranked to match email, it would be nice to know if they actually ranked us 50.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Is that just to have your name be in their heads close to rank list time? I've been told to let my number 1 program know they're my number 1 early.
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I've heard it's not advised before interview season is done. I have told my top programs how I feel during interviews, but am holding off on sending the official "you're my number 1" email until the end of interview season.
 
fldoctorgirl said:
I've heard it's not advised before interview season is done. I have told my top programs how I feel during interviews, but am holding off on sending the official "you're my number 1" email until the end of interview season.
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What if your top program finish interviews mid December. That would be end of their interview season.
 
I'll start by saying that programs shouldn't be sending these "ranked to match" emails. At best they are not very helpful, and at worst they can be downright deceiving.
calivianya said:
Since they get a report saying where the people they rank end up, I think we should get a report that Includes every program on our list showing our rank at each program where we did not match, so applicants can be a little more aware.

If tons of people are getting “see you in July!” at a small program and getting ranked 50+, it would be nice to see that on a spreadsheet vs. a couple people who matched there reporting that they got that email. Obviously those spreadsheets are prone to some deceit too, but it would still be a nice data point to have.
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calivianya said:
The only way to know if they lied is to see where they ranked us, and have the data for how far down their rank list they usually go to fill. If they usually fill at 20 and send us a ranked to match email, it would be nice to know if they actually ranked us 50.
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Ranks are private. As already mentioned, I shouldn't be able to see where my program was on your rank list. Would you really want to know that you were the last kid picked?

To be useful, you'd need to also know the last number matched. Otherwise, the number is useless. Let's say you're #56 and you didn't match there. You have no idea if the last person who matched was #55, or #20. And if the last rank number matched is published, that last person would know. I guess you could publish a range, but even that wouldn't be really helpful. And it would definitely drive programs to rank people on the likelihood of them actually coming to try to drive that number down -- once it's published it would become a metric of how good the program was. This is bad news all around.
 
Chelsea FC said:
What if your top program finish interviews mid December. That would be end of their interview season.
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I think it's based on interview season as a whole. I don't think it really matters that much to be honest. Programs can't enter their rank list until February anyways.
 
I saw the above discussion about waiting til the end of the interview season to send "your my #1 email," but I've got some advice to send it sooner after your interview so they have that in my mind when discussing your performance at the interview. So, anyway, I think I am going to take that route. But to each their own.

That said, does anyone have a template or starting point for which to base this type of letter? I just don't want to come off sounding like a tool lol
 
hiiiiiiiiiii said:
I saw the above discussion about waiting til the end of the interview season to send "your my #1 email," but I've got some advice to send it sooner after your interview so they have that in my mind when discussing your performance at the interview. So, anyway, I think I am going to take that route. But to each their own.

That said, does anyone have a template or starting point for which to base this type of letter? I just don't want to come off sounding like a tool lol
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So, here's what I did just to kind of clarify my approach.

After my interviews at my top choices, I sent a thank you letter to the people I interviewed with stating all of the reasons why I love the program and how I would be really excited to match there. So I definitely agree you want to make sure you express your interest both during the interview and in some form of post-interview communication (if the program allows it). Then, I will send out a letter only to my #1 last week of January/first week of February stating that I am ranking them #1, and I will reiterate a couple of reasons why. I've heard that "I'm ranking you #1" emails don't carry much weight if you haven't finished interviewing yet, so I'm holding off until then. This is my strategy, I don't think there's necessarily a right or wrong way.
 
fldoctorgirl said:
So, here's what I did just to kind of clarify my approach.

After my interviews at my top choices, I sent a thank you letter to the people I interviewed with stating all of the reasons why I love the program and how I would be really excited to match there. So I definitely agree you want to make sure you express your interest both during the interview and in some form of post-interview communication (if the program allows it). Then, I will send out a letter only to my #1 last week of January/first week of February stating that I am ranking them #1, and I will reiterate a couple of reasons why. I've heard that "I'm ranking you #1" emails don't carry much weight if you haven't finished interviewing yet, so I'm holding off until then. This is my strategy, I don't think there's necessarily a right or wrong way.
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hmmm okay interesting to hear a different approach! Maybe I'll stew over it today and decide how I am going to approach it tomorrow. I think I'm just a little excited/antsy because this program has been my top choice for a couple years and the interview yesterday finally confirmed it

Ugh, I wish match day was today so we could just know already! haha
 
hiiiiiiiiiii said:
hmmm okay interesting to hear a different approach! Maybe I'll stew over it today and decide how I am going to approach it tomorrow. I think I'm just a little excited/antsy because this program has been my top choice for a couple years and the interview yesterday finally confirmed it

Ugh, I wish match day was today so we could just know already! haha
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I felt exactly the same way. I've known what my #1 would be forever if I were to get an interview with them, and after chatting with the PD I was like "yuppppp, this is my #1" but I'm holding off on officially saying it. It's like some weird dating process lol
 
NotAProgDirector said:
Sadly, I'm going to agree with @Chelsea FC here. Based only upon the match, it's in your best interest to tell multiple programs that you are their number 1. As mentioned above, some programs may ignore it and then no benefit. But if some increase your ranking based upon it (which they really shouldn't do -- their best ranking strategy is to rank applicants in the order they want, ignoring applicant preferences), perhaps because they want bragging rights of "I filled in my top X spots", you may benefit from telling multiple programs.

Can this hurt you? Probably not. PD's are not likely to compare notes. When you match somewhere and other programs are upset because you clearly lied, there isn't much they can do. But they could send copies of your #1 email (to them) to your new PD. GME is a small world, many PD's know each other. Your new PD might see this as unprofessional behavior. You won't lose your match over it -- but you will start with a big strike against you -- not a great way to start a new job, and you'll be in trouble if anything similar happens again.

It's also possible they could report this to your medical school. Would they consider it unprofessional enough to cause a problem? Probably not. But it could.

So the main point is this: If you send multiple #1 emails, you'll then start worrying after the match that this was going to come back to haunt you. You really don't want that. So send one, or none, and live with it. My 2 cents. That and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.. Not at Starbucks, but somewhere. Not good coffee, but you can't have everything.
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what are your thoughts on sending a LOI to a program that says they dont respond to them or dont send any post interview communication, but has not explicity said not to send them? I think Ive made it clear (I mention it in my PS that they are my fav) and I wonder if an LOI is even necessary.

I've thought of reaching out to ask how if I should send one, but that also seems like a kinda awkward thing to ask
 
Can you send LOI if you are not even get an interview invites or is it applicable to ranking only?
 
dial1010usa said:
Can you send LOI if you are not even get an interview invites or is it applicable to ranking only?
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people use LOI to mean both "letter of interest" and "letter of intent". the former means before an invite (tell them you love them in the hopes of an invite) while the latter means after interview (tell them you love them in the hopes of a high rank). No point in sending the latter if you didn't interview, they won't be ranking you no matter what. Could still shoot your shot at the former if the program is still sending invites.
 
fldoctorgirl said:
I felt exactly the same way. I've known what my #1 would be forever if I were to get an interview with them, and after chatting with the PD I was like "yuppppp, this is my #1" but I'm holding off on officially saying it. It's like some weird dating process lol
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I can't honestly tell my #1 that they are my #1 until I've interviewed at all the places I'm going to see... What if I change my mind and like the place I'm doing Friday better?!

Then I'm either leaving them with outdated info or have to sheepishly admit in a follow-up that they are no longer my favorite.
 
Ganon said:
I can't honestly tell my #1 that they are my #1 until I've interviewed at all the places I'm going to see... What if I change my mind and like the place I'm doing Friday better?!

Then I'm either leaving them with outdated info or have to sheepishly admit in a follow-up that they are no longer my favorite.
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I think it's a lot easier to have an early #1 if you are strongly prioritizing things like geography/personal ties, vs being willing to go anywhere. For example, I've already interviewed at all the programs in my home region, and liked them all, and I know i'm going to prioritize that in ranking. so in theory I could have my number 1 decided already (except that I'm having a crisis deciding between two programs lol). Even though I have some fantastic programs left to interview at, that I'd be very happy at if I drop down my list, I know there's no chance of them moving above my current top 3ish
 
TelemarketingEnigma said:
I think it's a lot easier to have an early #1 if you are strongly prioritizing things like geography/personal ties, vs being willing to go anywhere. For example, I've already interviewed at all the programs in my home region, and liked them all, and I know i'm going to prioritize that in ranking. so in theory I could have my number 1 decided already (except that I'm having a crisis deciding between two programs lol). Even though I have some fantastic programs left to interview at, that I'd be very happy at if I drop down my list, I know there's no chance of them moving above my current top 3ish
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You planning to send your love letter early?
 
Chelsea FC said:
You planning to send your love letter early?
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Not sending any love letters until I conclude my crisis over fit/mission vs. money/prestige haha

The place I'm leaning towards as number 1 is also the only place I sent a letter of interest to, so they at least already have a hint that I love them. Might send something after the holidays after i've had some heart to hearts with family for ranking advice. I don't think I'll wait till february, my specialty seems to run on the earlier side than others so a lot of programs are already wrapping up their seasons and will be done in/before january.
 
I told my home program either number 1 or 2 as the PD and I have a good rapport. I have decided they will go #2. I kind of want to tell them #2 so they don't feel like I burned them or something. Just so hard to make decisions like that.
 
TelemarketingEnigma said:
I think it's a lot easier to have an early #1 if you are strongly prioritizing things like geography/personal ties, vs being willing to go anywhere. For example, I've already interviewed at all the programs in my home region, and liked them all, and I know i'm going to prioritize that in ranking. so in theory I could have my number 1 decided already (except that I'm having a crisis deciding between two programs lol). Even though I have some fantastic programs left to interview at, that I'd be very happy at if I drop down my list, I know there's no chance of them moving above my current top 3ish
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Problem with this is, interview invites don't all come out on the same date for some specialties.

You might get another interview for your specific region late in the game (happened to me this year!)

For some things (like Ortho) they have a unified interview invite date but most specialties don't have that
 
Ganon said:
Problem with this is, interview invites don't all come out on the same date for some specialties.

You might get another interview for your specific region late in the game (happened to me this year!)

For some things (like Ortho) they have a unified interview invite date but most specialties don't have that
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This is def true for specialties with a lot of programs. I’m applying to a smaller specialty with only a few programs in each state and was fortunate to get invites to all the programs in my main locations of interest, and rejections from the lofty reach programs that could have overcome the regional preference 😂
 
My first choice, where I did my Sub-I, literally told me they look at LOIs before mid-january as insincere since they know you are likely still interviewing at other programs. The clerkship director told me that they expect applicants not to send any LOI until they have interviewed everywhere else so they are the most informed...after hearing this I think I definitely won't be sending anything until at least mid january. Although I know NOW that they are my number one, and i am finishing my interviews this friday, I am going to hold off based off what they told me. My home program also confirmed that this is common practice.

I don't think there is any right or wrong answer since every program is likely different but, 2 programs telling me to wait tells me that waiting until Jan is the right decision for me.
 
Buddy of mine (USMD) got an II this week.

Pretty wild, but it punctuates my above point... How could he call out his #1 if he could still get interviews and change his mind? That would have put him in a very awkward situation.

I'm sure II's this late might be 2/2 cancellations, but that could happen at a very high-level reach, and thus have decent odds of ending up being someone's #1 rank...

This process. Ugh
 
fldoctorgirl said:
So, here's what I did just to kind of clarify my approach.

After my interviews at my top choices, I sent a thank you letter to the people I interviewed with stating all of the reasons why I love the program and how I would be really excited to match there. So I definitely agree you want to make sure you express your interest both during the interview and in some form of post-interview communication (if the program allows it). Then, I will send out a letter only to my #1 last week of January/first week of February stating that I am ranking them #1, and I will reiterate a couple of reasons why. I've heard that "I'm ranking you #1" emails don't carry much weight if you haven't finished interviewing yet, so I'm holding off until then. This is my strategy, I don't think there's necessarily a right or wrong way.
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Im not sending my intent letter till early/mid Febuary. Every one of my programs is interviewing until like Jan 28th. Completely agree with you
 
I feel very bad for any DOs this year who either did not take any USMLE exam or did not apply broadly enough (<50 programs). My friends who did this are getting screwed right now (except for people applying FM). One of my friends who is applying IM even managed to secure an audition rotation at a university program in December, and they were told straight up by the APD that they are not getting an interview because they did not have USMLE scores. Now they are stuck with interviews in very undesirable locations even though their COMLEX scores weren't that bad, and they are very depressed about it.
 
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DrStephenStrange said:
I feel very bad for any DOs this year who either did not take any USMLE exam or did not apply broadly enough (<50 programs). My friends who did this are getting screwed right now (except for people applying FM). One of my friends who is applying IM even managed to secure an audition rotation at a university program in December, and they were told straight up by the APD that they are not getting an interview because they did not have USMLE scores. Now they are stuck with interviews in very undesirable locations even though their COMLEX scores weren't that bad, and they are very depressed about it.
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Agree, this year is very tough for DOs especially the West coast getting overlooked by the East coast programs and no favors from West coast programs. I have good steps 1 & 2 and levels 1 & 2 but still did not get the number of II that I expected to receive.
 
I am really at a loss so far as post-interview communication goes. Am I just supposed to send one letter of intent? Can I send 2-3 "letters of interest" to my top programs?

I am a bit concerned I guess. I am applying FM with good stats. I think my 15 interviews have gone pleasantly and mathematically I should have a 100% match chance.

I keep hearing about people on here being told "they're a good fit" and so on, or getting these little signals they'll be ranked highly. I always had pleasant discussions but none of that.
 
Osteosaur said:
I am really at a loss so far as post-interview communication goes. Am I just supposed to send one letter of intent? Can I send 2-3 "letters of interest" to my top programs?

I am a bit concerned I guess. I am applying FM with good stats. I think my 15 interviews have gone pleasantly and mathematically I should have a 100% match chance.

I keep hearing about people on here being told "they're a good fit" and so on, or getting these little signals they'll be ranked highly. I always had pleasant discussions but none of that.
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Send 1 to your top program. Don’t be dishonest to those that are not your number 1.
 
Osteosaur said:
I am really at a loss so far as post-interview communication goes. Am I just supposed to send one letter of intent? Can I send 2-3 "letters of interest" to my top programs?

I am a bit concerned I guess. I am applying FM with good stats. I think my 15 interviews have gone pleasantly and mathematically I should have a 100% match chance.

I keep hearing about people on here being told "they're a good fit" and so on, or getting these little signals they'll be ranked highly. I always had pleasant discussions but none of that.
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One letter of intent to your number 1 and that's it.
 
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Steve_Zissou said:
Send 1 to your top program. Don’t be dishonest to those that are not your number 1.
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I guess I was differentiating "letter of intent" (You are my #1) from a "letter of interest" (I really like you and will highly rank you).

Does the latter have any value or is it done?
 
Osteosaur said:
I guess I was differentiating "letter of intent" (You are my #1) from a "letter of interest" (I really like you and will highly rank you).

Does the latter have any value or is it done?
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I know someone who sent those and matched to one of the programs she sent a “I really like you” letter.
 
DrStephenStrange said:
I feel very bad for any DOs this year who either did not take any USMLE exam or did not apply broadly enough (<50 programs). My friends who did this are getting screwed right now (except for people applying FM). One of my friends who is applying IM even managed to secure an audition rotation at a university program in December, and they were told straight up by the APD that they are not getting an interview because they did not have USMLE scores. Now they are stuck with interviews in very undesirable locations even though their COMLEX scores weren't that bad, and they are very depressed about it.
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It sucks but i think it’s better if all DO schools require their students to take the USMLEs under such circumstances.
 
Lawpy said:
It sucks but i think it’s better if all DO schools require their students to take the USMLEs under such circumstances.
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Any DO student that had a chance of passing USMLE and doesn’t take it is doing themselves a massive disservice. I told this to one of my DO classmates but they said they trusted the school had our best interests in mind when the school says that all you need is a solid COMLEX.
 
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