COCA grants pre-accreditation to 2 new schools

[hallowmann]

Do you have any previous versions which indicate a 98% minimum placement rate? Because the document you posted indicates that there was no minimum previously.

The prior document (that I do have saved somewhere in the recesses of my laptop), states that schools are expected to demonstrate a 98% placement rate, but didn't state that it was an actionable requirement. The current modification implies that it is a requirement, which COCA can in turn act upon. It clarifies the point slightly as well. Its not great that they reduced it to 95%, but a slightly more lax clear requirement is better than a recommendation, in my opinion at least.

COCA doesn't benefit from the failure of schools. There's no reason why they wouldn't enforce a requirement like that. If anything fees due to violations and reapplication for accreditation would net them more money.

EDIT: Yeah, apparently I also forgot that the previous recommendation was for 98% average over 3 years, whereas the new one is 95% annually. I talk about it a bit in this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/coca-proposed-accreditation-changes.1137053/

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[Shinobiz11]

For certain states, I don't think it is that easy. The one big issue I would see with setting up a new MD school is government funding. Currently there is one MD school at UNM. If there are two MD schools, which are both public, it would mean possible competition for those resources. It also means more spots are needed to be set up at each hospital and with GME. The majority of rotations would need GME, unlike DO schools. Money from the state government/federal government would be needed fund these new residency spots as well.

I know for a fact there is no way my home state could set up another MD school. It would mean a lot more rotations need to be put in place with GME and government spending. The government is the largest barrier here.

Right on. I guess I didn't mean easily, but it's feasible with the right push and nudge.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Right on. I guess I didn't mean easily, but it's feasible with the right push and nudge.

Yeah, I could see this as possible if the state had another 5-10 years to gather the resources.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

And who is to say this requirement cannot be cut back more in the future?

Maybe I'm naive, but I sincerely doubt that they will scale it back more and more. It's not good for business and doesn't look good for the US to be graduating doctors with 300k in debt and no job to be had. It will also push many of the older and better schools to transition into MD institutions. Nova and UNT are already becoming homes to MD schools alongside their DO. Who is to say these schools won't eventually drop the DO if it's a degree that damages the institution as a whole?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Maybe I'm naive, but I sincerely doubt that they will scale it back more and more. It's not good for business and doesn't look good for the US to be graduating doctors with 300k in debt and no job to be had. It will also push many of the older and better schools to transition into MD institutions. Nova and UNT are already becoming homes to MD schools alongside their DO. Who is to say these schools won't eventually drop the DO if it's a degree that damages the institution as a whole?

I imagine because holding two programs is better than holding one. Not like they can convert a class size of 270 into an addition to their MD school or have two MD schools.

I agree that there will be an eventual push for more established DO schools to petition LCME accreditation as an attempt to regulate the profession. I think progressively many DOs are beginning to feel like at the very least there is a dilution of quality with the expansion of new DO schools.


Truth is that Osteopathic medicine has already been infiltrated by a Carib style of practice. As long as medicine continues to pay well and the residency match rate is high enough to not close down schools, even the worst DO schools will continue to enroll masses.

 

[Seth Joo]

I imagine because holding two programs is better than holding one. Not like they can convert a class size of 270 into an addition to their MD school or have two MD schools.

I agree that there will be an eventual push for more established DO schools to petition LCME accreditation as an attempt to regulate the profession. I think progressively many DOs are beginning to feel like at the very least there is a dilution of quality with the expansion of new DO schools.


Truth is that Osteopathic medicine has already been infiltrated by a Carib style of practice. As long as medicine continues to pay well and the residency match rate is high enough to not close down schools, even the worst DO schools will continue to enroll masses.

There is a "feeling" no there is no feeling, there is a real genuine dilution of quality of DO schools and it has not been for the past 5 years or so, more like the last 15 to 20 years. Schools that have been older than 30 years are much higher quality than those younger than 30 years.

COCA will put its stamp of approval on a DO school opening up in abandoned K-mart or McDonald's, its standards are nothing like the LCME, even the California Northstate MD school, the first for profit MD school in the United States looks pretty solid if you ask me.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I imagine because holding two programs is better than holding one. Not like they can convert a class size of 270 into an addition to their MD school or have two MD schools.

I agree that there will be an eventual push for more established DO schools to petition LCME accreditation as an attempt to regulate the profession. I think progressively many DOs are beginning to feel like at the very least there is a dilution of quality with the expansion of new DO schools.


Truth is that Osteopathic medicine has already been infiltrated by a Carib style of practice. As long as medicine continues to pay well and the residency match rate is high enough to not close down schools, even the worst DO schools will continue to enroll masses.

I agree that converting 270 students to MD is not plausible, but if the program becomes weak enough where a huge chunk doesn't get residency and hurts the school's reputation, it would be best to close the program all-together. I really think LCME accreditation across the board is the new frontier to fight for, but realistically, I don't think it'll happen any time soon. There's too much money on these new schools.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I agree that converting 270 students to MD is not plausible, but if the program becomes weak enough where a huge chunk doesn't get residency and hurts the school's reputation, it would be best to close the program all-together. I really think LCME accreditation across the board is the new frontier to fight for, but realistically, I don't think it'll happen any time soon. There's too much money on these new schools.

Honestly, it's hard to say or determine. LCME fundamentally is an organization that makes sure that students eventually go on to practice medicine and pass their boards. I think they can make an adjustment and give some sort of level of accreditation to almost all but the very lowest DO schools and give them 10 to 20 years to expand to fit a more acceptable normal.
I mean why close a DO school with thousands of graduates who have also made it into ACGME residencies and so on. They have sufficiently proven that the education is adequate for clinical practice without detriment and adjustment to residency.

Regarding a lack of matching. Who knows how it'll go down. I'm inclined to believe things will change before we get there because eventually older DO schools will campaign within COCA to make sure that their students are not butt out for a new school to be created. No whether this also leads to LCME intervention is a curious question too.

In either case I think there is going to be an eventual change somewhere down the line. LCME will more than likely opt to accommodate a good amount 90% at least of existing DO schools and give them time to change either by working with the state to get funding or being merged with parent institutes. I.e KCUMB being merged with U of Missouri to share some funding.

But who really knows. I can offer possibilities and ideas, but we can only wait for how it really pans out.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Honestly, it's hard to say or determine. LCME fundamentally is an organization that makes sure that students eventually go on to practice medicine and pass their boards. I think they can make an adjustment and give some sort of level of accreditation to almost all but the very lowest DO schools and give them 10 to 20 years to expand to fit a more acceptable normal.
I mean why close a DO school with thousands of graduates who have also made it into ACGME residencies and so on. They have sufficiently proven that the education is adequate for clinical practice without detriment and adjustment to residency.

Regarding a lack of matching. Who knows how it'll go down. I'm inclined to believe things will change before we get there because eventually older DO schools will campaign within COCA to make sure that their students are not butt out for a new school to be created. No whether this also leads to LCME intervention is a curious question too.

In either case I think there is going to be an eventual change somewhere down the line. LCME will more than likely opt to accommodate a good amount 90% at least of existing DO schools and give them time to change either by working with the state to get funding or being merged with parent institutes. I.e KCUMB being merged with U of Missouri to share some funding.

But who really knows. I can offer possibilities and ideas, but we can only wait for how it really pans out.

I think there are some older DO schools that may be able to get LCME accreditation if they are forced to and given a window period, but I'd say at least half wouldn't. The number of faculty needed and grants is too large. They are not getting state assistance like most MD schools are.

I just hope they tie this down. Give priority to US MD and DO graduates in the first tier match. Allow school expansion of seats proportional to new residencies or residency postions. Then allow 2,000 seats or so to go to graduates from international programs. We need to keep the door open for the best talent outside the US but mostly closed to places like the Caribbean.

 

[Seth Joo]

I think there are some older DO schools that may be able to get LCME accreditation if they are forced to and given a window period, but I'd say at least half wouldn't. The number of faculty needed and grants is too large. They are not getting state assistance like most MD schools are.

I just hope they tie this down. Give priority to US MD and DO graduates in the first tier match. Allow school expansion of seats proportional to new residencies or residency postions. Then allow 2,000 seats or so to go to graduates from international programs. We need to keep the door open for the best talent outside the US but mostly closed to places like the Caribbean.

If you used actual LCME criteria to accredit a DO school, almost all but a few DO schools would lose their accreditation overnight, and there is no time in the near future where US MD and DO graduates will viewed as equals in the match in the near future if ever, you can thank COCA for the rapid expansion of low quality schools for that, do not get me wrong there are schools that have done the profession a service and have given us a good name but there are many that have sent us in the wrong direction, mostly because COCA is to eager to build new schools and collect tuition dollars from students that would probably go overseas for their medical education. Lets also be real, many people choose the DO route because its not possible to go to an MD school.

It wasn't too long ago many DO students would be going to Caribbean schools for their education, the financial crisis and the AOA marketing folks helped convinced many premeds that going to a DO school was a better idea than going to some strange island for medical school. And its not surprising me that DO schools are becoming more like island schools except that they are within the borders of the United States, the irony of the it all.

I think the financial crisis made students more risk averse, so more students decided to go to DO programs rather than risk it at Caribbean schools and other foreign medical schools if they did not gain acceptance to an MD school in the US.

The pecking order for residency placement is US/Canadian MD >>DO > IMG/FMG>> Carribean(the bottom of the list).

 

[GUH]

If you used actual LCME criteria to accredit a DO school, almost all but a few DO schools would lose their accreditation overnight, and there is no time in the near future where US MD and DO graduates will viewed as equals in the match in the near future if ever, you can thank COCA for the rapid expansion of low quality schools for that, do not get me wrong there are schools that have done the profession a service and have given us a good name but there are many that have sent us in the wrong direction, mostly because COCA is to eager to build new schools and collect tuition dollars from students that would probably go overseas for their medical education. Lets also be real, many people choose the DO route because its not possible to go to an MD school.

It wasn't too long ago many DO students would be going to Caribbean schools for their education, the financial crisis and the AOA marketing folks helped convinced many premeds that going to a DO school was a better idea than going to some strange island for medical school. And its not surprising me that DO schools are becoming more like island schools except that they are within the borders of the United States, the irony of the it all.

I think the financial crisis made students more risk averse, so more students decided to go to DO programs rather than risk it at Caribbean schools and other foreign medical schools if they did not gain acceptance to an MD school in the US.

The pecking order for residency placement is US/Canadian MD >>DO > IMG/FMG>> Carribean(the bottom of the list).

There is a lot of opinion here without a lot of evidence to back it up.

 

[Seth Joo]

There is a lot of opinion here without a lot of evidence to back it up.

Well DOs do better than IMGS and Caribbean grads but not as good as US MDs that is very well known already.

A lot of premeds have been applying to DO schools over the past 10-15 years because it has been seen as a viable alternative to going for an MD or going overseas. Before the whole financial crisis fiasco, there used to be a surplus of residency positions, so there was not much of an issue for foreign graduates to get residencies, so now the better students that could not get into an MD program in the US are applying to DO programs instead. I think about 40 percent of my class were people who were rejected by MD schools.

The best evidence is the stats of DO students entering today versus before the financial crisis started, look at classes entering in 2007 and 2008 then compare them to today's entering stats and then compare them to the top 3 Caribbean schools, the island schools are falling flat. Students are realizing foreign medical schools are a bad investment.

 

[meliora27]

Not to hijack this thread any further into DO vs. Caribbean, which is a stupid argument, but I just want to make one point.

Look at the caliber of programs that DOs are matching into.

Yes, DOs and Carib grads match a ton into IM (the field I know the most about) but look to see what programs they're matching into. Sure there are some mid-tier university programs that interview and rank Carib grads, but each year, you're seeing more and more DOs break into strong IM programs that have not, and likely will not, take a Carib grad.

 

[Seth Joo]

I already made my own order of things DO rank above IMG/FMGS and Caribbean(absolute bottom of the barrel) graduates. However DOs are never going to on equal footing with MDs in the near future.

Also DO schools have attracted a lot more applicants over last 8-10 years that would have not considered the degree several years ago, many of whom who are otherwise strong students that did not make it into US MD schools.

 

[meliora27]

I already made my own order of things DO rank above IMG/FMGS and Caribbean(absolute bottom of the barrel) graduates. However DOs are never going to on equal footing with MDs in the near future.

Attempting to achieve parity with our Allopathic colleagues isn't even on the radar for COCA/AACOM/AOA.

All it will take is for one COM to attempt to achieve LCME accreditation, and then, and only then, will there be true tiers of DO schools.

 

[Seth Joo]

Attempting to achieve parity with our Allopathic colleagues isn't even on the radar for COCA/AACOM/AOA.

All it will take is for one COM to attempt to achieve LCME accreditation, and then, and only then, will there be true tiers of DO schools.

Probably because they don't really care, most schools have a mission statement to create "Primary Care" physicians not Cardiothoracic Surgeons, not the next Jonas Salk, not the next Nobel Prize Winner, imagine a DO winning the Nobel Prize for Medicine, now that would be something but the AOA doesn't care about that.

 

[meliora27]

Probably because they don't really care, most schools have a mission statement to create "Primary Care" physicians not Cardiothoracic Surgeons, not the next Jonas Salk, not the next Nobel Prize Winner, imagine a DO winning the Nobel Prize for Medicine, now that would be something but the AOA doesn't care about that.

I agree with you on this.

The only thing I'd add is that I also think in the research arena, you will see some of the COM's breaking from the mold, and again creating a "tier" system. TCOM is an example with this.

The one school to keep an eye out for on the research front is KCU(MB). They are led by an subspecialty trained anesthesiologist (Dr. Hahn also used to run the pain service at Penn State), they have forged some strategic partnerships with major universities, and after a long courtship, they have recruited a leading ALS researcher from Rush in Chicago (and previously Vanderbilt prior to that), and have put their money where there mouth is by putting money into research facilities and faculty recruitment.

 

[Seth Joo]

I agree with you on this.

The only thing I'd add is that I also think in the research arena, you will see some of the COM's breaking from the mold, and again creating a "tier" system. TCOM is an example with this.

The one school to keep an eye out for on the research front is KCU(MB). They are led by an subspecialty trained anesthesiologist (Dr. Hahn also used to run the pain service at Penn State), they have forged some strategic partnerships with major universities, and after a long courtship, they have recruited a leading ALS researcher from Rush in Chicago (and previously Vanderbilt prior to that), and have put their money where there mouth is by putting money into research facilities and faculty recruitment.

Well it is good to know there are some schools that are moving forward and are becoming genuine institutions of biomedical research.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I agree with you on this.

The only thing I'd add is that I also think in the research arena, you will see some of the COM's breaking from the mold, and again creating a "tier" system. TCOM is an example with this.

The one school to keep an eye out for on the research front is KCU(MB). They are led by an subspecialty trained anesthesiologist (Dr. Hahn also used to run the pain service at Penn State), they have forged some strategic partnerships with major universities, and after a long courtship, they have recruited a leading ALS researcher from Rush in Chicago (and previously Vanderbilt prior to that), and have put their money where there mouth is by putting money into research facilities and faculty recruitment.

Even I'm surprised that a good chunk of our faculty do research actively and are published in mid tier and high tier journals. I think KCU does provide a new ideal for DO schools and I am in many ways very proud of my COM for doing their best to grow strongly.

 

[Seth Joo]

Maybe I'm naive, but I sincerely doubt that they will scale it back more and more. It's not good for business and doesn't look good for the US to be graduating doctors with 300k in debt and no job to be had. It will also push many of the older and better schools to transition into MD institutions. Nova and UNT are already becoming homes to MD schools alongside their DO. Who is to say these schools won't eventually drop the DO if it's a degree that damages the institution as a whole?

I do not see any DO school converting into an MD school if there is any possible candidate, it might be PCOM, but I do not see any others. As far as UNT and Nova opening up MD schools that doesn't sound like good news for their DO students.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I do not see any DO school converting into an MD school if there is any possible candidate, it might be PCOM, but I do not see any others. As far as UNT and Nova opening up MD schools that doesn't sound like good news for their DO students.

I think you're over estimating the LCME requirements. Yes, low tier DO schools wouldn't be able to make it. But established schools and midtiers would be able to make the switch especially over a period of 5-10 years.

 

[Seth Joo]

I think you're over estimating the LCME requirements. Yes, low tier DO schools wouldn't be able to make it. But established schools and midtiers would be able to make the switch especially over a period of 5-10 years.

I was not giving an estimate of 5-10 years, I was giving an estimate of a 1-2 years for a school to meet LCME requirements, almost all DO schools with the exception of a handful would fail the LCME's standards which are much higher than COCA's.

The lowest ranking MD School currently is California Northstate whose facilities are actually quite state of the art.

Anyway I do not see any DO schools becoming MD schools any time in the near or far future because the AOA has become a money making machine, its minting primary care doctors and offering hope to premeds who were rejected by Allopathic medical schools who have been reluctant to expand.

 

[FutureDO2016]

The school in Ft. Smith Arkansas will be opening in Summer 2017? I can see University of Incarnate Ward starting in summer 2017 in San Antonio as well as the new school in Jefferson Wisconsin starting around 2018. Crazy to think there were less than 20 schools a decade ago and now there will be around 40 soon. Louisiana will probably be open by 2020 as well as 1-2 more....COCA is like a factory.

The big wave started in 2013:

• A.T. Still University, with a Kirksville, Missouri campus and an Arizona campus
• Alabama College of Osteopathic Medicine Opened in Fall 2013
• Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine Opening in Fall 2016
• Campbell University School of Osteopathic Medicine Opened in Fall 2013
• Des Moines University
• Edward Via College of Osteopathic Medicine with a branch in Blacksburg, VA, Spartanburg SC, and new branch in Auburn Alabama opened Fall 2015
• Kansas City University of Medicine and Biosciences
• Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine, with campuses in Bradenton Florida and Erie, Pennsylvania
• Liberty University Opened in Fall 2013
• Lincoln Memorial University
• Marian University College of Osteopathic Medicine Opened in Fall 2013
• Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine
• Midwestern University, with campuses in Chicago and Arizona
• New York Institute of Technology College of Osteopathic Medicine
• University of North Texas Health Science Center
• Nova Southeastern University College of Osteopathic Medicine
• Ohio University Heritage College of Osteopathic Medicine
• Oklahoma State University Center for Health Sciences
• Pacific Northwest University of Health Sciences
• Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine, with campuses in Philadelphia and Georgia
• University of Pikeville College of Osteopathic Medicine
• Rocky Vista University
• Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine – New York City
• Touro University California
• Touro University Nevada
• Rowan University School of Osteopathic Medicine
• University of New England College of Osteopathic Medicine
• West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine
• Western University of Health Sciences, with a California campus and an Oregon campus
• William Carey University Opened in 2011

 

[Seth Joo]

I can see University of Incarnate Ward starting in summer 2017 in San Antonio as well as the new school in Jefferson Wisconsin starting around 2017 or 2018. Crazy to think there were less than 20 schools a decade ago and now there will be around 40 soon. Lousiana will probably be open by 2020 as well as 1-2 more....COCA is like a factory.

They are opening up like Subway and McDonald's Franchises. Quality and Quantity are inversely proportional variables. There eventually will come a point where this growth cannot be sustained.

University of the Incarnate Word, sounds like another LUCOM. Oh no.

 

[GUH]

University of the Incarnate Word, sounds like another LUCOM. Oh no.

Look things up before you make posts like this. It's not that difficult.

 

[Seth Joo]

Look things up before you make posts like this. It's not that difficult.

I did this is what I found about this school, its extremely distressing.
For your information this is a recent news story involving University of Incarnate Word:
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/lo...here-UIW-student-shooting-lawsuit-5898412.php
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/lo...ho-killed-UIW-student-yelled-Stop-6161597.php
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Autopsy-UIW-student-shot-in-the-back-5335693.php

Apparently a student at the school was gunned down by a campus security officer and the student's family is currently suing the university. More troubling was the student was a Honors student there before he died.

 

[NurWollen]

I did this is what I found about this school, its extremely distressing.
For your information this is a recent news story involving University of Incarnate Word:
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/lo...here-UIW-student-shooting-lawsuit-5898412.php
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/lo...ho-killed-UIW-student-yelled-Stop-6161597.php
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Autopsy-UIW-student-shot-in-the-back-5335693.php

Apparently a student at the school was gunned down by a campus security officer and the student's family is currently suing the university. More troubling was the student was a Honors student there before he died.

It's distressing yes, but it also could have happened anywhere. Not a direct reflection on the quality of the school.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I was not giving an estimate of 5-10 years, I was giving an estimate of a 1-2 years for a school to meet LCME requirements, almost all DO schools with the exception of a handful would fail the LCME's standards which are much higher than COCA's.

The lowest ranking MD School currently is California Northstate whose facilities are actually quite state of the art.

Anyway I do not see any DO schools becoming MD schools any time in the near or far future because the AOA has become a money making machine, its minting primary care doctors and offering hope to premeds who were rejected by Allopathic medical schools who have been reluctant to expand.

Like I said, Commonwealth was approved. Commonwealth is probably one of the least "state of the art" schools there is. If it can be LCME. I think some DO schools can too.

 

[Seth Joo]

It's distressing yes, but it also could have happened anywhere. Not a direct reflection on the quality of the school.

Did you read about the circumstances? The student was intoxicated and unarmed, the security guard shot him for being drunk? From what I read the student was in his apartment complex off campus too. That guard should be charged with manslaughter. The autopsy also found the student was shot in the back.

I am sure if I did more research I would probably find more things.

 

[Shinobiz11]

Don't go to UIW because you will get shot and you will die!

Also don't go to VTech or anywhere else in the US where a campus shooting could occur.

 

[costales]

I did this is what I found about this school, its extremely distressing.
For your information this is a recent news story involving University of Incarnate Word:
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/lo...here-UIW-student-shooting-lawsuit-5898412.php
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/lo...ho-killed-UIW-student-yelled-Stop-6161597.php
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Autopsy-UIW-student-shot-in-the-back-5335693.php
Apparently a student at the school was gunned down by a campus security officer and the student's family is currently suing the university. More troubling was the student was a Honors student there before he died.

Following this excellent logic, friends don't let friends attend the University of Cincinnati College of Medicine:

 

[costales]

I was not giving an estimate of 5-10 years, I was giving an estimate of a 1-2 years for a school to meet LCME requirements, almost all DO schools with the exception of a handful would fail the LCME's standards which are much higher than COCA's.

The lowest ranking MD School currently is California Northstate whose facilities are actually quite state of the art.

Anyway I do not see any DO schools becoming MD schools any time in the near or far future because the AOA has become a money making machine, its minting primary care doctors and offering hope to premeds who were rejected by Allopathic medical schools who have been reluctant to expand.

Mathematically speaking:

You can save that for your future use. BTW self-hating DO students grow up to be self-hating miserable bastards, but thankfully, I doubt you are a DO student.

 

[Seth Joo]

Like I said, Commonwealth was approved. Commonwealth is probably one of the least "state of the art" schools there is. If it can be LCME. I think some DO schools can too.

Actually Commonwealth has a pretty nice looking campus. Not state of the art, but they definitely took great care in building the school.

 

[hallowmann]

This discussion is a bit ridiculous. Would DO schools pass LCME accreditation of they suddenly had to overnight? No, of course not, they weren't designed or built to.

That said the majority would be able to in a timely fashion. They might do so reluctantly, but if they were forced to do it or shut down, they would. Everyone assumes MD schools are state of the art facilities with endless research, when the truth is that there are multiple newer or more rural schools that more closely resemble a DO school than JHU.

In any case, this argument has been made repeatedly, and I'm starting to get tired of pointing out the obvious.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

This discussion is a bit ridiculous. Would DO schools pass LCME accreditation of they suddenly had to overnight? No, of course not, they weren't designed or built to.

That said the majority would be able to in a timely fashion. They might do so reluctantly, but if they were forced to do it or shut down, they would. Everyone assumes MD schools are state of the art facilities with endless research, when the truth is that there are multiple newer or more rural schools that more closely resemble a DO school than JHU.

In any case, this argument has been made repeatedly, and I'm starting to get tired of pointing out the obvious.

I agree with this point. I think fundamentally we need to go back and look at the main job of the LCME and why it exists. It's there to make sure schools are treating their students adequately, providing an environment and resources for them to succeed and become doctors. If DO schools are doing this and have been doing this historically and in many cases are ending up in ACGME residencies over 50% of the time ( Soon to be 100%) then they'll inevitably have to recognize that with they are functional and that to shut them down would be foolish.

I think inevitably many DO schools will meet LCME standards and that those that don't will likely within a period alloted.

 

[Seth Joo]

I agree with this point. I think fundamentally we need to go back and look at the main job of the LCME and why it exists. It's there to make sure schools are treating their students adequately, providing an environment and resources for them to succeed and become doctors. If DO schools are doing this and have been doing this historically and in many cases are ending up in ACGME residencies over 50% of the time ( Soon to be 100%) then they'll inevitably have to recognize that with they are functional and that to shut them down would be foolish.

I think inevitably many DO schools will meet LCME standards and that those that don't will likely within a period alloted.

The LCME has not doubled the number of US Allopathic schools in 10 years, COCA and the AOA has, the LCME has far more stringent criteria as far as opening a new medical school. The bar to open a DO school is set much lower. This rapid fire expansion of DO schools is primarily financial in nature, the AOA is succeeding in its efforts in convincing many premeds out there that DO is a viable track to becoming a physician in this country, also Obamacare helped them in this mission, because many residency programs are turning their backs on IMG/FMGs which makes the DO even more attractive. Just compare the average stats of a matriculated DO student in 2015 to 2007-2008, and compare the same dates for some of the bigger Caribbean schools you will see that the numbers have not moved for the island schools at all, the numbers are dramatically higher for all DO schools.

 

[Jlaw]

If KCU sticks to their word about having a school in Joplin FOR Joplin (that means not sending the rest of their students to Arkansas if they run out of 3rd year spots in Joplin, having a match list that shows 50%+ grads staying in Joplin for residency) then I will stand confident in the branch. The fact that they have a complete tie to Freeman Health is a positive thing. I would like to see them take the next step of turning that into a univ. teaching hospital (name change).

Ohio University has been one of the only DO programs to really push their missions statement in terms of providing primary care for the state of Ohio while creating branches of their campus and they have done it well (50 student class for the new Cleveland Campus that is within the Cleveland Clinic South Pointe Hospital).

We shall see.

They are going to be starting residency programs and putting students through Mercy and Freeman. But yeah they better make the folks who go there pursue primary care, otherwise they are contributing to the problem.

 

[Jlaw]

The LCME has not doubled the number of US Allopathic schools in 10 years, COCA and the AOA has, the LCME has far more stringent criteria as far as opening a new medical school. The bar to open a DO school is set much lower. This rapid fire expansion of DO schools is primarily financial in nature, the AOA is succeeding in its efforts in convincing many premeds out there that DO is a viable track to becoming a physician in this country, also Obamacare helped them in this mission, because many residency programs are turning their backs on IMG/FMGs which makes the DO even more attractive. Just compare the average stats of a matriculated DO student in 2015 to 2007-2008, and compare the same dates for some of the bigger Caribbean schools you will see that the numbers have not moved for the island schools at all, the numbers are dramatically higher for all DO schools.

We will hit a DO saturation point soon. Glad that I'm getting into residency next year, its going to get ridiculously competitive soon. How long til we have caribbean DO schools? Probably not long after the merger.

 

[Seth Joo]

We will hit a DO saturation point soon. Glad that I'm getting into residency next year, its going to get ridiculously competitive soon. How long til we have caribbean DO schools? Probably not long after the merger.

A few years ago DOs were starting to get into specialties that were only for MDs, you were seeing DOs at academic medical centers, with all these new schools churning out more graduates, you will see things move back into DOs becoming mostly primary care doctors again.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

A few years ago DOs were starting to get into specialties that were only for MDs, you were seeing DOs at academic medical centers, with all these new schools churning out more graduates, you will see things move back into DOs becoming mostly primary care doctors again.

Pretty sure the status of DOs matching MD has been the better last match than ever before.


Look, I'm all for bashing the issues that DO expansion has accumulated, but we cannot deny that there are more DOs matching MD and in higher ranking specialties and higher ranking programs than ever before.

 

[Seth Joo]

Pretty sure the status of DOs matching MD has been the better last match than ever before.


Look, I'm all for bashing the issues that DO expansion has accumulated, but we cannot deny that there are more DOs matching MD and in higher ranking specialties and higher ranking programs than ever before.

I know that...but with COCA opening up new DO schools and existing schools working on opening up "branch" campuses, I do not see this going into perpetuity. There eventually will be a saturation point, lets see if COCA keeps expanding until 2025 at the rate they have since 2005 which they have effectively doubled the number of schools.

 

[NurWollen]

Pretty sure the status of DOs matching MD has been the better last match than ever before.


Look, I'm all for bashing the issues that DO expansion has accumulated, but we cannot deny that there are more DOs matching MD and in higher ranking specialties and higher ranking programs than ever before.

I know that...but with COCA opening up new DO schools and existing schools working on opening up "branch" campuses, I do not see this going into perpetuity. There eventually will be a saturation point, lets see if COCA keeps expanding until 2025 at the rate they have since 2005 which they have effectively doubled the number of schools.

It's amazing how opposing viewpoints can both simultaneously be true.

 

[Henry101]

WTF??!?! I live in San Francisco and I have NEVER heard of Alliant International. Touro-CA already has a horrible time with rotation spots where half the students travel to central CA to finish OMSIII. Where is this school going to find rotation spots? Is this a joke?

 

[scoKraz4]

They are going to keep opening schools as long as the government keeps giving out loan money as easy as it does. It is just a great business to be in right now because there is no regulation on tuition. If it became more difficult for students to secure loans-->harder for schools to maintain ridiculous tuition--> less open.

 

[NurWollen]

WTF??!?! I live in San Francisco and I have NEVER heard of Alliant International. Touro-CA already has a horrible time with rotation spots where half the students travel to central CA to finish OMSIII. Where is this school going to find rotation spots? Is this a joke?

Exactly. Meanwhile several states have NO medical school and lots of decent sized hospitals.

 

[Seth Joo]

Exactly. Meanwhile several states have NO medical school and lots of decent sized hospitals.

Boston is one major metropolitan area without a single DO school, despite the fact it has highest concentration of universities and colleges in the entire country.

Most of the new and proposed medical schools seem to be opening up in areas with few medical schools or regions with large underserved populations.

 

[Henry101]

Boston is one major metropolitan area without a single DO school, despite the fact it has highest concentration of universities and colleges in the entire country.

Most of the new and proposed medical schools seem to be opening up in areas with few medical schools or regions with large underserved populations.

Except the San Francisco one.....
Touro already struggles big time with rotation spots. Also, with the opening of CA Northstate, they lost all their rotation spots with Dignity Health. It would be a huge mistake to go ahead with this Alliant International thing.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Boston is one major metropolitan area without a single DO school, despite the fact it has highest concentration of universities and colleges in the entire country.

Most of the new and proposed medical schools seem to be opening up in areas with few medical schools or regions with large underserved populations.

There is still the problem of distribution of those schoola. Now there are two Arkansas schools opening up and KCUMB-joplin is right next door. Also, some of these schools are opened in towns of 5,000, but it would be better if they were in towns of 50,000 at least. Access to good hospitals and possible research would be better. It is part of the reason why MU-COM is so prosperous.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

There is still the problem of distribution of those schoola. Now there are two Arkansas schools opening up and KCUMB-joplin is right next door. Also, some of these schools are opened in towns of 5,000, but it would be better if they were in towns of 50,000 at least. Access to good hospitals and possible research would be better. It is part of the reason why MU-COM is so prosperous.

Originally I was against Joplin, but they seem to have made it work or have a framework for making the class work, so I'm very ok with that. But as I'll say again, a lot of these DO schools expanding into the areas make no sense and utterly should cease and desist.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Boston is one major metropolitan area without a single DO school, despite the fact it has highest concentration of universities and colleges in the entire country.

Most of the new and proposed medical schools seem to be opening up in areas with few medical schools or regions with large underserved populations.

Most of Boston's schools aren't going to be interested in a DO school either because they can or already have a MD school or are an undergraduate driven liberal arts college with no desire or need to build up a graduate program portfolio. That's the unfortunate thing about DO school expansion, you're stuck picking through some really uncompetitive or not highly respected colleges if not entirely a stand alone.

That being said a DO school in Boston would have a really high average and be very highly desired.