controversial topic???

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by pooh2, Mar 15, 2002.

  1. pooh2

    pooh2 Member

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    Hi,
    I've been visiting the SDN for a while and finally decided to join in the conversation.

    I should start by saying no disrespect is meant to anyone, well maybe towards
    admission commitees.

    A few days ago, I spoke with a former admissions member (a friend of a
    doctor I work with). I asked about the selection process; how at times it seems
    so random, why he thinks I was rejected and how someone with lower stats
    than mine beat me out for a spot. He explained how every commitee seeks to
    fill the class with a certain percentage from a variety of demoghraphics. If you're
    not at the top of your category....you are screwed! This seems like discrimination
    to me. I guess it was naive to believe that MS's wanted the most qualified applicants.

    As an applicant with a GPA 3.76 and MCAT all 9's my chances weren't that great to
    begin with.....but as a caucasian my chances absolutely SUCK!!! I know I'll catch crap
    for this, but as minority one seems to have a 'built in excuse' for low numbers. How
    is this equality? When will the color of a persons skin no longer be an issue?

    My intention was not to offend anyone. I am a frustrated applicant who just wanted to
    get this off my chest and possibly get some feeback.
     
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  3. Papa Smurf

    Papa Smurf Thug 4 Life

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    Alright, who's gonna bite on this one? Caveman, please stay outta this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> I'll come back and offer my thoughts after it's reached 100 posts......
     
  4. SMW

    SMW Grand Member

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    I think I'll just leave it at.......Welcome to SDN!! :D
     
  5. SocialistMD

    SocialistMD Resident Objectivist

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    In an attempt to avoid the AA debate that is about to erupt, I just have to say that whenever you have a greater population than available positions, you are always going to have discrimination. In anything, if you are not at the top of your category, you are "screwed." I am not validating the categories that are drawn (I have debated this enough in times past and I don't feel like getting into it again), I am just saying that, no matter what, there will always be discrimination whenever you have a greater population than positions.
     
  6. oh oh....here we go again....sigh :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  7. PelicanMan

    PelicanMan Senior Member

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    Alright Pooh8.

    First of all let me say that I am equally if not more frustrated with this process and I have not received any acceptances yet.

    So I am in your shoes.

    But I have a different view on the discrimination thing.

    I believe very strongly that AA is a good thing. You can always say "hey he has lower stats than mine, what the fu9k" And you said that being a minority gives you an excuse to have low numbers.
    The reason why you are wrong is because the reason why they allow them to have lower numbers is because of the hardships that you and I don't have to deal with.(i'm white) It is much harder to come out of a poor neighboorhood and most of the US population that are in poverty are minorities. Since there is so much damn racism in the world today it is necessary to have AA to try to level the playing field which it tries to do. I still believe that it does not level the playing field and that minorities have it unfairly hard. They go to ****ty schools,etc. Now I know that not all minorities are poor and that some are probably more privalaged than I am, however I would rather have the mistake of taking a minority who isn't underprivalged than not having AA at all.

    And from reading SDN you know that alot of people who don't get in the first time, get in the second time. If you are really dedicated to becoming a doctor nobody can stop you. I really believe that.

    So don't take out your frustration on people who don't deserve it. As is evident, nobody knows how the hell med schools decide on applicants.

    my 17 cents.
     
  8. SMW

    SMW Grand Member

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    PelicanMan, did I ever welcome you to SDN? Anyway, kudos for that wonderful post!! <img border="0" alt="[Lovey]" title="" src="graemlins/lovey.gif" /> :) :D (Did you ever read the kids' book, The Pelican Chorus, by Edward Lear? It's wonderful, you should check it out!).
     
  9. Papa Smurf

    Papa Smurf Thug 4 Life

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    What the adcom member told you is correct in that they're looking for certain niches to fill their class. When you build a football team, you don't draft 20 quarterbacks, and when you put together a med school class, you don't accept 50% biochem majors. You want diversity, and you seek it from recruiting the top applicants of each group, be it white, black, yellow, or purple. If admission to medical school was based on numbers alone, then 95% of all classes would probably be composed of Asians and Whites. In this diverse nation, that is FAR from ideal! Yeah, you're white, and it pisses the hell out of you that someone with lower numbers than you is "golden" in terms of getting in by virtue of their skin color. My GOD! They must've stolen your seat, right???? Hellz no they didn't steal your seat!! Because it wasn't reserved for you anyway! So suck it up, retake the MCAT, bust a 30, and you too my friend, shall be loved by medical schools all around the nation.
     
  10. pooh2

    pooh2 Member

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    I know you're right, SocialistMD, but it still sucks. I understand the selection process wouldn't work without some form of discrimination. There should be a GPA cut off or a failure point on the MCAT (less than my score, of course) where NO ONE gets in with anything less...no exceptions! It would save an applicant some serious cash. Through this whole application process I've followed the Interview Feedback site and read about applicants with MCATs of 23
    "FLYING IN" to interview in my home state. I didn't get an interview! <img border="0" alt="[Pissy]" title="" src="graemlins/pissy.gif" />
     
  11. Medic171

    Medic171 Senior Member

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    Do you want some cheese with your Whine? You got 2 choices, lobby congress day and night, or work harder.
     
  12. pooh2

    pooh2 Member

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    I can't keep up with the posting .....
    You are all right, I know this.
    Where I went to college most of the URMs had a better backround situation than me. I come from a broken home, poor family with a single parent income. Neither of my parents went to college. I paid my own way through school and received several scholarships. I have had to take time off from school to work and once to recover from a bad injury. ( I included my sob story in the essay). I didn't have the money to take an MCAT prep course. I took this damn test twice.... the first time I got a freakin 6V, 9B and 10P, so I didn't apply. I got straight 9s the second time around (went down in P). I thought the material was easy, I'm just a very slow test taker and didn't finish a single section. I will not take it again. This time around I had the sense to apply to DO schools. (applied to 4 and got in all 4).

    Hopefully, I am done with the self pitty and whining.

    Yours truly,
    Angry, bitter white girl.

    <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
     
  13. mango-a-go-go

    mango-a-go-go Member

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    I'm not going to even bother explaining this...it seems that pelican man has already done a great job doing that. But all I have to say is that everyone is unique...everyone has gone through massive **** during this entire process...No offense, but stop complaining, you're not the only one.
     
  14. rajneel1

    rajneel1 Senior Member

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    i agree that caucasian (did i spell that right?) males have a harder time getting into medical school.
    but diversity is good. people of color bring untangible benefits to a medical school class and to medicine. but none would take a minority with very sucky numbers that has a chance to flunk out of medical school and make that particular school look bad. that would be silly.
     
  15. spicoli

    spicoli Member

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    AA is not necessarily a good thing when it is race-based. However, when AA is used a socioeconomic context, it is a great process. Take my situation for example.

    I grew up in very meager surroundings. None of my parents went to college and none of my family went to college. I grew up with SCHIP and AFDC as my primary provider of lunch, etc. So, I go to a high school where only 12 percent of the students took the SAT and their average score was a little over 870. I manage to get into the public university and work my way through college, paying for it all. I study for my exams like everyone else, but I do it between shifts at work and late at night. I take the MCAT withot a prep course because I couldn't afford it. Does the fact that my GPA may be 0.3 lower than yours and my MCAT 3-5 points less mean that I am not as qualified as you? No, of course not. You can't expect me to make an automobile out of plywood and wood glue.

    Medical school is a level playing field. We all come in with nothing... no parental legacy. no rich family or poor crack head cousins... no president of the Pre-Medical Jackoff Association... we will all get there and work together, because that is where our strengths lie.

    All my college career, I was angry at how all of the other kids had their tuition paid, or how they didn't have to work, or how their parents just bought them a new car. I don't get angry anymore. Because, I know that I control my own destiny. You can control your own too. Med School admissions isn't just a measure of numbers and jerk around community service, it's a measure of worth.
     
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  17. jargon124

    jargon124 Senior Member

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    I'm with Papa, SMW, and Whatcha...not touching this mess with a ten foot pole. :D
     
  18. med student

    med student Senior Member

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The reason why you are wrong is because the reason why they allow them to have lower numbers is because of the hardships that you and I don't have to deal with.(i'm white) It is much harder to come out of a poor neighboorhood and most of the US population that are in poverty are minorities </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is a common myth for AA but it is not true because if you look purely at the number of poor, whites make up the largest group of poor people in this country. What is true is that a greater percentage of minorities are poor compared to the percentage of the white population that is poor. So the accurate statement would be that the majority of the population that lives in poverty is white. I think the reason that it is a common misconception is because poor minorities tend to live in cities (and are more visible) while poor whites live in rural areas.
     
  19. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by rajneel1:
    <strong>i agree that caucasian (did i spell that right?) males have a harder time getting into medical school.
    but diversity is good. people of color bring untangible benefits to a medical school class and to medicine. but none would take a minority with very sucky numbers that has a chance to flunk out of medical school and make that particular school look bad. that would be silly.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">ummm whatever!!! caucasion males have a harder time getting into medical school? ok, so how about non-minority and non-caucasion males....maybe its easy for them too! people face it, it's qualifications....if you were a caucasion who had stellar stats like most asians...then you wouldn't even be complaining at all...

    I don't understand....why is it, that asians never complain about the process? they work their ass off and they get in, seriously I think more seats are lost to asians than "minorities"...I don't see a HUGE representation of minorities in medical school...so everyone please stop playing the blame game....

    also, just for the record, I am considered caucasion....well kind of....but definitely not minority, and not asian....
     
  20. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by jargon124:
    <strong>I'm with Papa, SMW, and Whatcha...not touching this mess with a ten foot pole. :D </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">sorry I couldn't contain myself....whoopsie... :p :rolleyes:
     
  21. vkrn

    vkrn Senior Member

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    On my interviews, I very rarely saw underrepresented minorities. Most of the interviewees at all the med schools I went to were white, both women and men. Then the next biggest percentage were Asian American, who are people of color ("minorities"--but I don't like that term--it sounds demeaning) but not underrepresented.

    I've read about a lot of SDNers who are underrepresented minorities who haven't gotten into medical school anywhere.

    In addition, I've noticed that a lot of SDNers who are underrepresented minorities and who HAVE been accepted have stats that are quite good--over 3.7 and high MCATs.

    Many med schools, such as Duke and Stanford, use computers to screen out applicants based first on their numbers. To have a fighting chance of getting an interview, an applicant needs to make that first, impersonal cut.

    About the MCAT: I did not use a test prep service. I studied very very hard, and used my old textbooks, as well as some books I bought. I also borrowed old Princeton Review books from friends who had taken that course. I got a 14B, 14P, 13-15V, and S. So it can be done.

    About underprivileged socioeconomics: If you believe that you have been socioeconomically disadvantaged, I'd encourage you to apply as disadvantaged on the AMCAS form. I strongly support people pointing out the fact that they have had to work their way through college, and who grew up in low-income households. Of course, you have to be able to back it up, because no one likes a liar, and I'm sure admissions officers have seen it all and can smell a rat.
     
  22. med student

    med student Senior Member

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Many med schools, such as Duke and Stanford, use computers to screen out applicants based first on their numbers. To have a fighting chance of getting an interview, an applicant needs to make that first, impersonal cut.
    </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In undergrad many schools do the same thing but you also receive points for being a URM. So I assume it is the same for some medical schools.
     
  23. PelicanMan

    PelicanMan Senior Member

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    med student

    What I meant was percentage of minorities. I know that there are more white people than anyone else. But percentage wise and thus my argument is still the same and I am sorry but I meant to say percentage.
     
  24. leorl

    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved

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    Watcha, I think because complaining is futile, it won't change the fact that a gabillion Asians with 4.0's and way high MCATs and tons of good ECs (I fall far short) are competing for less spots than the caucasian. I've always wondered why so many asian-americans want to become doctors. I understand that it may be culturual, but I haven't seen it with my own family. I've never hung around Asian kids, my parents never ever said they wanted for me to be a doctor, but somehow I made the choice when I was really young. Go figure. But being Asian in this process SUCKS ASS.
     
  25. ValleyGal

    ValleyGal Senior Member

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    Message to take away from this thread:

    JUST DO YOUR BEST!!!

    Besides, even if you are bitter about people getting into medical school with lesser stats than you, the med school does not give them any favors when they are actually there. They sink or swim with the rest of us. So if you feel as if you were passed over, go to med school and kick some ass. Make the best of you own situation, because that is what I am going to do! Good luck!
     
  26. souljah1

    souljah1 Attending

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by spicoli:
    <strong>AA is not necessarily a good thing when it is race-based. However, when AA is used a socioeconomic context, it is a great process.

    I don't get angry anymore. Because, I know that I control my own destiny. You can control your own too. Med School admissions isn't just a measure of numbers and jerk around community service, it's a measure of worth.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I couldn't have said it better. It bothers me when people equate ethinicity with hardship. Many times the top URM candidates that are recruited are not from 'lower served areas' and will most likely not practice in them. I dig the socioeconomic considerations much more than I do the ethnicity one.

    I also like what spicoli said about creating your own destiny. I like to defy statistics.
     
  27. no...this isn't controversial at all....

    my experience tells me to slowly back away, but i think i'll stay and play. but only for a while. here's my contribution:

    your gpa is good, but your mcat is pretty bad relative to the national accepted average. until you've improved it AND THEN gotten beat by a URM (won't happen), you don't have an impressive case. buck up and work harder. so there it is. with a 30 mcat, you would be fine and dandy..it's what everyone else has to get, why do you want special treatment? yes URMs get some special treatment, but they have to be the best of the URMs to get in. the cream of the crop is selected. be good relative to your crop and you'll be fine. unless you wanna join another crop...i didn't think so dude. until you are prepared to have gone through the LIFE of a typical URM, you should bite your tongue. if you can't figure out the answer to this URM question, you will struggle forever and might be upset forever. the truth is you're mad at yourself. all this will fizzle away when you become a truly competitive applicant. gluck with that, gangsta
     
  28. reesie0726

    reesie0726 Senior Member

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    Cave, I can always trust you to express my sentiments exactly. And you know what pooh, I am a URM and I have better stats than you and I got in. So dont think just because someone is a URM that they are less qualified than you are. I did not apply to med school until I had the numbers to make me competitive (and this took a few years)
     
  29. vixen

    vixen I like members

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by mango-a-go-go:
    <strong>I'm not going to even bother explaining this...it seems that pelican man has already done a great job doing that. But all I have to say is that everyone is unique...everyone has gone through massive **** during this entire process...No offense, but stop complaining, you're not the only one.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Amen. I believe if you work your hardest, you will succeed...anything less, then you can't complain. Whoever said that thing about destiny, I agree w/that also.
     
  30. jmejia1

    jmejia1 Senior Member

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    qb][/QUOTE]I couldn't have said it better. It bothers me when people equate ethinicity with hardship. Many times the top URM candidates that are recruited are not from 'lower served areas' and will most likely not practice in them. I dig the socioeconomic considerations much more than I do the ethnicity one.

    I also like what spicoli said about creating your own destiny. I like to defy statistics.[/QB][/QUOTE]

    Hey Souljah, I couldn't agree with you more, I'm a URM myself, but in all honesty I feel the URMs that are highly recruited are those that come from non-disadvantaged backgrounds and thus can put up the high stats. They have 3.7+ and 30+ mcats, but grew up in White nieghborhoods and if they're hispanic don't speak an ounce of Spanish (I've seen this plenty of times). Yet the med schools parade them on thier catalogs and in thier statistics knowning too well that they are not representative of the URM population.

    I also dig the socio-econonmic considerations, that'll encompass poor Whites, Latinos and Asians, which will statistically be more likely to practice in the inner-cities. Before anyone gets bad at me, I wholly understand that one doesn't have to be poor or have lived in the ghetto to want to work there, so all the power to those with such admirable ambitions.
     
  31. Dr. Kermit

    Dr. Kermit Senior Member

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    I have opinions for and against AA, but here's a true story that always makes me think that ADCOMS are decent at heart.

    I had a friend from JHU who was black. He graduated PBK (3.7 or 3.8, I think) and had a 30 MCAT (straight 10s.) He was accepted at Harvard, Duke, Yale, Stanford, and Hopkins (among other schools.) So, that's a 3.7-3.8 from JHU and a 30 MCAT, above average GPA, lower end MCAT.

    He was raised by a single mother on welfare with 5 siblings outside of Atlanta. When he was about 9 (not quite sure of the age), he watched as his mother's drunk and high boyfriend shot 5 bullets into her. She survived, but not without many lifelong disabilities. He postponed college for a year while he helped save money for his family to live. My friend worked a full-time job as a gas station attendent in inner city Baltimore for four years of school to pay for his room/board because he was only given a tuition scholarship.

    So, the top URMs can be recruited from their numbers, but also their backgrounds. Sometimes, the admission process may seem faulty, but I belive this is a true case of pinpointing someone who is qualified, dedicated, and definitely disadvantaged.
     
  32. vixen

    vixen I like members

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    wow, thats an amazing story. It's stories like the one just mentioned that make me say, no one can complain...
     
  33. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by leorl:
    <strong>Watcha, I think because complaining is futile, it won't change the fact that a gabillion Asians with 4.0's and way high MCATs and tons of good ECs (I fall far short) are competing for less spots than the caucasian. I've always wondered why so many asian-americans want to become doctors. I understand that it may be culturual, but I haven't seen it with my own family. I've never hung around Asian kids, my parents never ever said they wanted for me to be a doctor, but somehow I made the choice when I was really young. Go figure. But being Asian in this process SUCKS ASS.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">ok I stand corrected :D here is our first complaint hehe :D
     
  34. Dr. Dad

    Dr. Dad Senior Member

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    While these stories are great examples of dedication and triumph, they are hardly examples of the normal population. I have a friend who just got excepted a few months ago and she was white and grew up in a trailer park with a drunk father who used to sexually molest her. I would also categorize this as dedicated and triumphant. The cold hard fact is that originally equal opportunity programs had a good objective, and it worked. However now it has outlasted its time and every white man in congress is too afraid to question it pretty much for the same reason most people on SDN are afraid to question it...its not politically correct!
    What do I mean by outlasting itself? I mean that I grew up a normal white kid in a suburban neighborhood and I always had minority friends of all types growing up in every city I lived in. We all had the same opportunities. Hell, I even married a black woman. Many of the jobs I had, were supervised by minorities. We do not live in the 1930's anymore. This is the year 2002 and we have minority teachers in all levels of school, there are minority doctors, minority lawyers, minority engineers, etc. Equal opportunity was a way for minorities to get out of the cycle of poverty from picking cotton, working an assembly line, etc. It worked, and now the barriers should be removed. While there are still minorities in poverty, there are also many, many white folks in poverty as well (it will never be any other way).
    As far as commented earlier about picking a variety of positions for your team. What about the fact that professional sports are overwhelmed with minorities. Would it be fair to require every team to carry a certain amount of white folks on their team even though they cannot play ball as well as the minorities, just so the so called white kids have a white ball player to look up to? No. Instead white kids idolize Micheal Jordan because he is the best. Who cares what color he is.
    I always speak my mind and do care about political correctness. I do believe that the entire equal opportunity idea is old and should be lifted up or at least changed to reflect economic status NOT race.

    On a side note I would like to add that we will never solve racial problems in this country as long as we give special treatment of any kind to anyone...including whites. Everyone keeps saying that its only a skin color, nothing else, and they should be viewed the same as everyone, but then we change the rules for everyone depending on their color. Its a conflict of opinions that needs to be addressed. It will never happen though because of the political consequences.

    Oh yeah, my daughter is half-black/ half white. How does that equate into this? Does she count as having half of the "great white opportunities", and half of the "more difficult black opportunities". Or does she just get bumped over to one category or another. This is what I mean by outdated. Just a skin color huh? Yeah right!
     
  35. Original

    Original Ogori-Magongo Warrior

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by spicoli:
    <strong> All my college career, I was angry at how all of the other kids had their tuition paid, or how they didn't have to work, or how their parents just bought them a new car. I don't get angry anymore. Because, I know that I control my own destiny. You can control your own too. Med School admissions isn't just a measure of numbers and jerk around community service, it's a measure of worth.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well said. I had a similar experience. Being an international student excluded me from almost every scholarship out there. I eventually landed one with the accelerated BS/MS math program. But in the program, I still was inelligible for the NSF grant that all my classmates had. They had books and supplies paid-for, and they were exempted from teaching. It was draining to be doing research (biomedical), taking non-math classes, teaching (50 hrs/week), and then having to keep up with the ridiculous amount of work the math program required. I often day-dreamed about what it would be like to have it as made as my classmates. Only having to take classes?!!! WoW! must be nice.

    But then while the system thought it was screwing me over, it turned out to have been helping me immensely. I absolutely love teaching. It has seriously enhanced my communication (BSing) skills. It turns out that it was my classmates that were getting shafted by the system. I love all of 'em. We're team-supreme. We study and work on problems together; and each one looks out for the next. Now I'm off to Duke on a $0.4 million MD/PhD scholarship and will not have to worry about being a non-U.S citizen again :p .

    The truth is that America remains one of the only places where genuine hard work is recognized and rewarded regardless of social status. It's still far from ideal and that's why I support AA. But the fact is that in my country (as well as most others), it doesn't f'ing matter how hard you work or how talented you are. If your daddy isn't rich or you're not in the ethnic majority, your file is closed the day you are born. America remains the greatest and probably the only meritocracy in the world. This fact takes a huge amount of credibility away from affirmative action. But it's still necessary.
     
  36. Original

    Original Ogori-Magongo Warrior

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by vkrn:
    <strong> I got a 14B, 14P, 13-15V, and S. So it can be done.
    </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">HOLY SH!T!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
     
  37. Scooby Doo

    Scooby Doo IEatShavedPussyCats

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Original:
    <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by vkrn:
    <strong> I got a 14B, 14P, 13-15V, and S. So it can be done.
    </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">HOLY SH!T!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My sentiments exactly!!!

    Where are you in so far vkrn???
    Didn't you get w/l at Penn? damn girl!
     
  38. Papa Smurf

    Papa Smurf Thug 4 Life

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    <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by vkrn:
    I got a 14B, 14P, 13-15V, and S. So it can be done.
    </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Damn, I never thought I'd meet someone who doubled my score!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
     
  39. Sir William Osler

    Sir William Osler Senior Member

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    do people really think that asians have a harder time getting into medical school? Honestly, I dont agree with this. I think both asians and whites face similar admissions standards. The problem with this argument is that you cannot base admissions decisions on stats (gpa/mcat). Admissions is based on a plethora of factors that are alot more subjective than these two numbers. If anything, I would base the higher avg admissions stats for asians on just better preparation. Or, may I suggest--and i really hesitate--that some ethnicities on average are more shy and reserved and do not interview as well? I hope I dont take heat for this. :)
     
  40. Papa Smurf

    Papa Smurf Thug 4 Life

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Papa Smurf:
    <strong><strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by vkrn:
    I got a 14B, 14P, 13-15V, and S. So it can be done.
    </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Damn, I never thought I'd meet someone who doubled my score!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh and before I get anymore PM's about this, no, I didn't really get a 20 on the MCAT people. It was a joke! Laugh! <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />
     
  41. LizardKing

    LizardKing Veteran Member

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    I'm not even gonna deign to respond to your ridiculous statements, Sir William Osler. I mean, you're basically stereotyping asians but doing it under the guise of "hesitantly suggesting" something. What ethnicities are you talking about specifically anyway? Pakistanis? Indians? Chinese? Japanese? Vietnamese? Koreans? Who exactly?

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Sir William Osler:
    <strong>do people really think that asians have a harder time getting into medical school? Honestly, I dont agree with this. I think both asians and whites face similar admissions standards. The problem with this argument is that you cannot base admissions decisions on stats (gpa/mcat). Admissions is based on a plethora of factors that are alot more subjective than these two numbers. If anything, I would base the higher avg admissions stats for asians on just better preparation. Or, may I suggest--and i really hesitate--that some ethnicities on average are more shy and reserved and do not interview as well? I hope I dont take heat for this. :)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
     
  42. med student

    med student Senior Member

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">that some ethnicities on average are more shy and reserved and do not interview as well? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />
     
  43. Dr. Dad

    Dr. Dad Senior Member

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    Damn lizardking, you need to relax. I read sir william's message and I got the message that he was saying that Asians were better prepared than ALL other enthnicities (that includes us white folks) and that might be the cause for the higher stats. I think he might have a point.

    It is a FACT that accepted Asians have higher GPA's/MCAT scores on average than other accepted ethnicities. He is saying that this may be due to the fact that asians tend to be more organized or prepared.
    The only other option I see for the higher scores is that asians are just plain smarter than other ethnicities. Is this the alternative explanation you are thinking.

    Man people are sensitive sometimes.
     
  44. LizardKing

    LizardKing Veteran Member

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    Yea, Dr. Dad, he might be saying that Asians have better stats, etc. But he's also implying that Asians in general simply can't interview as well as whites so therefore everything balances out in the end. In other words, he's saying asians would have a better shot than whites if they weren't so shy. Do you actually support this blanket statement? Cuz otherwise, get off my back. I'm not the one making generalizations...I'm not even arguing anything. I'm merely pointing out his stereotyping of asians as shy/submissive/non-assertive.

    Of course he'll come back and say oh no no that's not what he meant. But his statement is what it is. It's the type of rhetoric that perpetuates these pervasive falsities.
     
  45. pooh2

    pooh2 Member

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    I guess I should have expected all these responses.
    Well said and well written Dr Dad, I'll bet you scored well on the writing sample.

    For my next topic;
    Forget the URMs taking my spot....now we got foreigners, like Orignal, to worry about!!!!
    (totally kidding)
     
  46. otter

    otter Senior Member

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Dr. Dad:
    <strong>Damn lizardking, you need to relax. I read sir william's message and I got the message that he was saying that Asians were better prepared than ALL other enthnicities (that includes us white folks) and that might be the cause for the higher stats. I think he might have a point.

    It is a FACT that accepted Asians have higher GPA's/MCAT scores on average than other accepted ethnicities. He is saying that this may be due to the fact that asians tend to be more organized or prepared.
    The only other option I see for the higher scores is that asians are just plain smarter than other ethnicities. Is this the alternative explanation you are thinking.

    Man people are sensitive sometimes.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dr. Dad and Sir William Ostler - I know you guys will think label me as being hyper-sensitive. But, no matter how I read Sir William's comments, the impression I get is that he's implying that, Asian kids in general lack the intagibles - the charisma, lack of shyness, ability to communicate, etc. That is why he believes that the higher stats of Asian applicants do not necessarily mean that it's tougher for them to get in. Those are pretty offensive assumptions.

    I'm an Asian and have zero acceptance at this point. It is frustrating at times to reflect on my situation. I've been discriminated against very badly as a minority at times in this country (been harrassed by veterans and treated like crap by INS people) Yet, when it comes time for med school admissions, my minority status does not help me. Having said this, I am a steadfast supporter of affirmative action. Do I sometimes feel an envy for URMs who are getting in with lower stats? Yes. But would I be right to hold grudge against them for that? Absolutely not. I've had the privilege of taking the Princeton Review and being surrounded by people who are supportive of my educational endeavors. Many URMs can't say the same. Also, imagine going to a med school where everyone is white and Asian. Diversity in peers is what will make us better-prepared to serve a diverse population. Anyhow, I don't mean to get too serious here, so I'll stop...
     
  47. Doc AdamK in 2006

    Doc AdamK in 2006 Now 2 year UB Med Doc

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    On WebMD.com there was a article describing why students with lower numbers might be accepted over students with higher number because of race.

    It changed my perspective a little. I had concerns just like you. If you find the article (it was by a prominent physician) you might understand there reasoning.

    Have a good Night

    AK
     
  48. ValleyGal

    ValleyGal Senior Member

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    do you have a link for the article -- I am curious but cannot find it
     
  49. intraining

    intraining Junior Member

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    Imagine a med school where everyone else but you is white. That would suck because you would have to go into the classroom wearing sunglasses everyday to save your eyes from the constant glare.
     
  50. leorl

    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved

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    Here's the way I see it. I'll ignore the latter part because stereotypically, you have very passive asians or your extreme cut-throat gunner asians. However, while the same applies to whites and people of other ethnicities, I'm afraid stereotypes do play into judgement calls. How exactly this affects med school acceptances, I don't know.

    Here's why asians have a harder time, and this is generalized to undergrad acceptances as well. Not only do asians, who in general student populations do very well academically, have to compete against a plethora of high-scoring whites, they have to hold their own against all the other asians. When most all other asians have achieved remarkable things, this becomes extremely difficult. Now you can say the same thing about whites, but they are competing against a smaller pool of asian applicants. Why? Although asians are not considered minorities anymore on the college scene, there is still a quota as to how many *should* be accepted. Do you see in any American college a 50-50 distribution of whites and asians (disregarding other races for the moment)? Never. You don't even see 60-40. However, I'm willing to bet that for every white kid that applied, there was an equally matched asian kid. Once that quota is capped, the asian kid goes bye-bye, the white guy competes with a lesser number of qualified asians.

    Now transfer that to the med school scene where standards are incredibly high compared to any other profession and where Asians seem to like to go. It seems that to get in, regardless of race, everyone has had to have done something unique, remarkable, etc etc etc. When all Asians have to do this already, and then find something to make them stand out against all other asians because there is still a quota system, this becomes even harder. in other words, it's easier for a white guy to stand out than an asian guy.

    Now bring in stereotypes, where asians typically fall short on the presentation marks and charisma. Now those highly qualified asians lose out to other asians who stand out because of a little charm, when if he had been white, it probably wouldn't have mattered as much.

    And this kids, is the story of why those asian kids in school seemed to be socially uninvolved or nerds, because they had to concentrate on excelling more so than their peers. Am I a little resentful? Yes. That cultural attitude made my childhood hell, even though I was surrounded by socioeconomic comfort.
     
  51. Ripley

    Ripley Dr. Wannabe

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by pooh2:
    <strong> This time around I had the sense to apply to DO schools. (applied to 4 and got in all 4).

    Hopefully, I am done with the self pitty and whining.

    Yours truly,

    Angry, bitter white girl.

    <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Um...am I the only one that caught this??? You got into four DO schools. I know, I know, DO isn't as "good" as MD. :rolleyes:
    And what's this about a cut-off of numbers? I totally do not agree with this. I f'ed up when I was younger. I'm now 30 and kickin butt with A's. Of course my cumGPA is going to be below the cutoff. Does that mean that I shouldn't be considered b/c of my sins from 10 years ago?!
    You got into FOUR med schools for god's sakes. kwitchyerbitchin.

    ...A white girl who gets annoyed when people don't take responsibility for their own actions
     
  52. Jersey Girl

    Jersey Girl Member

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    On the same note, I have a friend with your exact stats who got into an allopathic school, and was rejected from osteopathic schools (she's white). You should be proud of your accomplishment. It is just as big of a deal. I don't feel that one type of medical school is easier to get into than the other in general. I think that depending on the individual applicant and their strenghts, one may be easier to get into for that individual person. It can definately go both ways. Point is, you should really be proud of yourself and stop making ligt of your acheivement. Maybe stuff like this happens for a reason.
     

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