controversial topic???

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I usually try to avoid controversy as a rule, but I thought I would add my 2 cents to this thread.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by pooh2:
•LIZARD ""
"An African-American person getting into college does not erase--or even begin to mitigate--the horrors of his or her ancestors being kidnapped, tortured, beaten, and systematically oppressed for hundreds of years".

Has this person getting into college ever experienced being kidnapped or tortured?
Why is it that he cannot erase the horrors of things he has, absolutely, no memory of?
This kid is probably 21 years old and never knew the world his ancestors knew...get over it.

AA perpetuates the feeling of the oppression you speak about. How can it not. It offers "hand-outs"or some form of additional help to 'level the playing field'. This implies that URMs need this aide to be equal......so without it, they must be inferior. Lowering the acceptance standards for URMs implies URMs are not expected to do as well ( on the MCAT and academically) as other applicants....implying they cannot. AA is the "pick them up...while keeping them down" fix. It's a vicious cycle.•••••I can understand that you are frustrated and I can see how you can come to your conclusions, but you do not understand what most URM's face in life.

You used the fact that as a black person today, I never knew the world that my ancestors lived in and therefore should "get over it". You are right that I have absolutely no idea what my ancestors went through, but the psychological wounds of slavery are the ones that are still present in the black community to this day. Everyone must also remember that we are only one generation removed from when it was well known that there was no equal opportunity for blacks in America. It is very sad to say, but there is even a lot of self-hatred.

I live and work in an area that is predominantly black and have spent time with many med school applicants (many of them applying for the 2nd or 3rd time), so I know first hand that getting in to medical school is very hard for URMs despite what you may think. As for the lowering of standards, if these people with lower stats graduate and become excellent physicians, then obviously these stats are not the best predictor of success for URM's. I truly believe that in 2 or 3 generations, mean MCAT scores for URMs will be comparable to all other ethnic groups due in part to AA.
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How have we justified slavery?
 
•••quote:•••As for the lowering of standards, if these people with lower stats graduate ••••Graduate? That's funny because I've always heard that "P=MD". <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> In other words, you have to be pretty brain dead to not pass your classes & the boards (whether or not you'll get accepted into the residency of your choice if you barely pass, is a whole other issue :) ).

•••quote:•••The majority of poor people in this country are white....do you think they receive adequate health care or a decent education.••••Just a statistical observation:
Yes, the majority of poor people are "white"....BUT....a higher % of "blacks" are poor, than are "whites". The percentage is sometimes a truer reflection, imho. :wink:

•••quote:•••I truly believe that in 2 or 3 generations, mean MCAT scores for URMs will be comparable to all other ethnic groups due in part to AA.••••A very interesting report came out last Summer concerning a long-term study of AA recipients and their children. Unfortunately, the results were unexpected. It showed that the URM children of AA recipients were no more successful than the previous generations of URM's who hadn't received AA. The study's findings were all over the media outlets....if anyone is familiar with this study, please post a link where it can be found.

•••quote:•••he basically said Blacks should be thankful that slavery "saved" them from Africa.••••Another stat: If you look at "Black America" as whole, it would be the 5th wealthiest nation in the world. (And I'm NOT inferring any justification of slavery in ANY WAY).
 
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•••quote:•••Originally posted by pooh2:
•How have we justified slavery?•••••Go back and read Dr. Dad's and your posts. It's that simple.
 
Hey Pooh2...I was just looking at one of your posts and have a few comments:
"AA perpetuates the feeling of the oppression you speak about. How can it not. It offers "hand-outs"or some form of additional help to 'level the playing field'. This implies that URMs need this aide to be equal......so without it, they must be inferior. Lowering the acceptance standards for URMs implies URMs are not expected to do as well ( on the MCAT and academically) as other applicants....implying they cannot. AA is the "pick them up...while keeping them down" fix. It's a vicious cycle."

Number one: I respect your ideas so don't don't take my comments as insults. They most certainly are not. Just my two cents and stuff for you to possibly think about!

Well, as it is getting late and I am missing ER...I'll make this one quick. I'm an URM as we all know. I think the notion of URM getting into medical school with "'lower stats'" as you say a whole bunch of crap. Medical schools don't exactly look at okay, let's say a white female with a 3.7 or so and a 30 MCAT and give away her space to a minority with a 3.2 and a 26 MCAT. I personally got into medical school the same way as you did, with hard work and dedication. Just something you should perhaps keep in mind when you see a URM in your class next year with perhaps 'lower stats'. I ain't AA, they worked the same way you did. If AA were so "unfair" as to just dump URM in medical school just for being a different skin color than we wouldn't even be discussing URM...they'd be everywhere in the class! Like I said, URM is just a consideration, not a big old stamp into access into medical school. So when you start next year I hope you can take a more positive outlook on how your class was picked as a whole as an overall benefit to medicine and society and not hold AA as a principle reason a URM got access to medical school. Cuz I did it the SAME way as you!!!

Take care. :wink:


"
 
•••quote:•••URM is just a consideration</font>•••...A consideration to accept a URM of lower standards and with lower stats.

I had this same discussion with someone else.

I'm for an affirmative action program for impoverished students (of all races, creeds, & colors) and for disadvantaged students (of all races, creeds, & colors), but I'm not going to be an advocate for these students to have lower standards...and then claim otherwise.
 
"...A consideration to accept a URM of lower standards and with lower stats.

I had this same discussion with someone else.

I'm for an affirmative action program for poor kids (of all races, creeds, & colors) and for disadvantaged kids (of all races, creeds, & colors), but I'm not going to ask for lower standards ...and then claim otherwise."

Who's asking for lower standards and then claiming otherwise?! And what kind of affirmative action would you approve of for all poor kids/disadvantaged students?

But most importantly, I'm curious to see where you all are getting the stats for URM lower GPA's. Really. Gimme the friggin website already as I'd like to know!

I personally would find it an insult, A BIG ONE, if anyone in my class would look at my skin color, then my grades, and assume I got into medical school just because of my color. Please.
 
•••quote:•••I personally would find it an insult, A BIG ONE, if anyone in my class would look at my skin color, then my grades, and assume I got into medical school just because of my color.••••Exactly! And I don't blame you. The reality, though, is that Affirmative Action is what I described:...A consideration to accept a URM of lower standards and with lower stats.

That's why I talked about this in a previous post. There is a stigma associated with AA and it's mainly associated with African-Americans. There is no way for an African-American to prove that AA didn't get them in the door.

That's why I proposed a modification of AA. If it were modified for poor kids (of all races) and for disadvantaged kids (of all races), not only would it not be thought of as "Reverse Discrimination", I think it would reduce the stigma that is associated with African-Americans accepted into Universities. I have read not only your comments that it insults you, but I've read/heard those exact same comments from other African-Americans on television, news programs, articles, .... The stigma is reality. A modification of the AA program could reduce it.
 
Points taken!

Still, if AA were so prevalent med classes would have tons of minorities in them. They don't.

I see what you mean when adcomm's should take individual basis of disadvantaged into consideration. My thing is that AA is still not as predominant in admissions as you seem to think it is. I think it should be there, and is there, in order to promote minorities in medicine. The whole thing of lower stats is still crap though.

LOL...how do you say that respectfully? LOL...I crack myself up sometimes. Seriously, I never mean to offend! Anyways, take care...it was neat having an intelligent convo with you INeedAdvice! Good night! <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />
 
Actually, Michlys, the fact is that if you look at URM statistics as a whole, that group's relative GPA's and MCAT's are lower. This isn't something we can deny. And yes, you could argue that affirmative action in some way perpetuates the stereotype that URM's are only capable of achieving entrance into school based on race.

However, this does not negate the value of affirmative action in medical school. Affirmative action to me has two purposes. THe first is setting straight a history of injustice that any scholar of American history can see came straight from the structure of society as it existed during slavery and after Reconstruction. But that in fact is the lesser reason for affirmative action in medical school in particular. I think it was Gandalf that derides the idea that a black patient somehow can't see a white doctor. But the fact is that there *is* a mistrust of white doctors that persists today, and can you wonder why - think of the syphilis experiments of the 60s, cases of sterilized without consent, the utter lack of access to proper health care that black communities experienced, and the fact that white doctors during the time of slavery didn't act in the best interest of the slave but the plantation owner. And think also of the fact that 1997 minority graduates of medical school from families w/incomes of over $50,000 are three times more interested in relocating in an underserved area. The most important reason that affirmative action exists is because there is a need in the medical community for diversity.

As for the Original Poster - There are plenty of legitimate arguments against affirmative action. However, your anger at not getting into medical school is misplaced. Several have told you this, and I'm beating probably just beating a dead horse, but I find your sentiments are dishearteningly reminiscent of the logic people have used to provoke violence against immigrants who have been perceived as "taking away" jobs. That's just plain ridiculous. As has been said, the medical school admissions process is random. I highly doubt that the presence of a few URM's hurts your chances for admission that dramatically.

I doubt that anyone will change their minds or come to resolution on this based on one debate but I am so uncomfortable with this bitterness that I had to say something.
 
You guys should check this site out:
<a href="http://www.socialpsychology.org/affirm.htm" target="_blank">Ten Myths About Affirmative Action</a>
 
let me say one thing to you racist and prejudiced Sons of Bitches:

you need to seriously reexamine everything you know about this issue. If you don't want to, or can't, i'm gonna tell you something that's gonna piss you off, and you're gonna have to deal with it!! because that's it, you have to deal with it!! how do you like that! i'm gonna play nice and not be rude and say something funny like "hispanics will be the largest minority real soon (if not already) and we're gonna take this country over (!!)" but i'd like to just to get a rise out of your Ku Klux Asses.

People like Jasmine are a gift from God. not because they understand what they understand about this issue, but because they know that one post Will Not make any difference in the long run to the misinformed people out there, AND THEY STILL WILL POST. this tells me that there's hope because intelligent people are willing to fight losing battles for what they believe. i have nothing to say here, this is a STUPID TOPIC which has been discussed many, many, MANY times, and Goddamit nobody ever learns a THING and it drives me crazy!!!! it's futile and when words don't change anything, people turn to violence. now i'm not saying i would kill one of you Ku Klux people for the good of the free world, but i might have to bust your ass.

think i've gone over the top. this discussion SICKENS me, and nothign will ever change anybody's mind. i still posted this just to hear myself say it to you.
 
Caveman,
Wow, you have a lot of anger bottled up inside of you. I think that was one of the most ignorant and unintelligent posts I have ever seen on here.

Prejudiced? Racist? Ku Klux Klan? Just because someone doesn't believe in AA doesn't make then any of these. There are plenty of blacks, hispanics, etc that don't agree with AA. You're the one that needs to WAKE UP.

I think your person on here that has learned the least from any of these discussions. And just because it has been discussed on here before doesn't mean everyone has had a chance to discuss it. Many people weren't here the last time it was discussed.
 
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•••quote:•••Seriously, I never mean to offend! ••••Michelys - LOL! As do I never mean to offend! My apologies if I have. :)
•••quote:•••Actually, Michlys, the fact is that if you look at URM statistics as a whole, that group's relative GPA's and MCAT's are lower...But the fact is that there *is* a mistrust of white doctors that persists today...••••Jasmine- I appreciate your honesty. And I also agree with you that there is a legitimate concern with URM's wanting to go to URM physicians.

BTW, my proposal (of having AA for poor kids of all races and for disadvantaged kids of all races) would still take this issue into account.

•••quote:•••but I find your sentiments are dishearteningly reminiscent of the logic people have used to provoke violence against immigrants who have been perceived as "taking away" jobs.••••Yes, I agree to a point that there is a similarity ....however, it's taken to a whole new level with medical school positions (as opposed to 'regular old employment').

Have you noticed (in discussions/debates in the "real world" and on television & radio talk shows) that there is more of an outcry of injustice when talking about AA when it is applicable to ACADEMIC acceptances??? (As opposed to when it is connected to JOBS.) And the outcry is even higher when it is specifically Medical School related???

It's because of how the system (the AMA) has it set up so that there are only enough positions availabe that are required to fill the needs of hospitals and medical practices...You don't hear too often about out-of-work MDs because of a saturated job market (and that's a good thing). But the unique exclusivity of the number of med school seats also exacerbates the "injustice level" when people think about AA as being "reverse discrimination".
 
•••quote:•••Caveman, Wow, you have a lot of anger bottled up inside of you.••••I think that "anger" was tongue-in-cheek?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
 
no comment. i didn't bother really reading the posts before posting, and i've only been loosely following this revolting discussion. but it was obvious that i was trying to communicate my rage through my post. it was art (HA!). i was trying to show you people how some come close to losing hope when they see this type of argument OVER and OVER again EVEN amongst "educated" people like yourselves. so the "ignorant" one is you for failing to see what i was trying to do. i wanted a reaction..i wanted people to notice what this kind of discussion does for some people..and i succeeded. hopefully in the future when you confront this issue again, you'll remember how disgusted one person was back in the day on SDN.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by INeedAdvice:
• •••quote:•••Caveman, Wow, you have a lot of anger bottled up inside of you.••••I think that "anger" was tongue-in-cheek?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> •••••actually no. i was upset, but not as mad as i made it out to be. i magnified it to get the point across. what's more eye-catching--pink or RED?

well maybe a little tongue-in-cheek actually...people are so complex and you always have mixed feelings. but mostly i meant what i said seriously.
 
•••quote:•••what's more eye-catching--pink or RED?••••Point taken. I try not to get emotional when discussing politics (which is hard for a girl to do! <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> ) I see your sincerity, but I can also see the sincere feelings on the other side too. :)

•••quote:•••i'm gonna play nice and not be rude and say something funny like "hispanics will be the largest minority real soon (if not already)••••That happened about two years ago! :wink:

•••quote:•••and we're gonna take this country over (!!)"••••I'm all for it....I love Mexican food!!! <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by INeedAdvice:
[QB]
Have you noticed that there is more of an outcry of injustice when talking about AA when it is applicable to ACADEMIC acceptances??? (As opposed to when it is connected to JOBS.) And the outcry is even higher when it is specifically Medical School related???
QB]••••Actually, I think this is because this is a message board for medical students and pre-med students. :wink: The whole situation about AA and URMs is going to direct us most directly, so we talk about it.

Caveman,
How can debate about a current law that is statistically not wanted by America, be an ignorant discussion? The US is an open democracy and that's what makes it tick. You may not like it because you have seen it a thousand times, but this is the first time I have participated in it.

If I took your previous comments out of context, I apologize. I get very angry when someone assumes that just because you are anti-AA that you are a racist. I am strongly anti-AA, and I am strongly not racist. I have several family members that are black, part black, or part hispanic (through marriage and adoption of course <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> ).
 
Originally posted by Hallm_7:
•••quote:•••Originally posted by INeedAdvice:
Have you noticed that there is more of an outcry of injustice when talking about AA when it is applicable to ACADEMIC acceptances??? (As opposed to when it is connected to JOBS.) And the outcry is even higher when it is specifically Medical School related???
••••"Actually, I think this is because this is a message board for medical students and pre-med students. :wink: The whole situation about AA and URMs is going to direct us most directly, so we talk about it."

LOL !! No...I was seriously talking about discussions/debates in the "real world" and on television & radio talk shows outside of this message board. :wink:

But since I didn't exactly make that clear...thanks for being so nice about it. <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Hallm_7:
•Caveman,
Wow, you have a lot of anger bottled up inside of you. I think that was one of the most ignorant and unintelligent posts I have ever seen on here

I think your person on here that has learned the least from any of these discussions. •••••You know what, though? I was starting to feel the same damn frustration that Caveman had expressed. Seemingly every freakin' time, Dr. Dad, Gandalf or pooh2 either completely ignores our points, takes our quotes out of context, flat out dismisses our posts w/o reason, or misinterprets our thoughts.

I'll give you examples. JBJ and I talked out of our own experiences about the importance of doctors who share similar background with their clients. Then Gandalf comes back simply with his sarcasm and just tells us to "get real." SMW made a point about poor minorities being doubly disadvantaged. Then, pooh2 comes back with: "Thats right, white people face none of these obstacles. We live the perfect life. Please." Pooh2, did you even contemplate SMW's point?! Then there was Dr. Dad completely misquoting me as saying that "black people speak different language." It still seems clear that pooh2 and Gandalf for whatever reason are totally in denial about and are unmoved by the extra racially-related obstacles that URMs face, even after all of the examples like my girlfriend and Dr. Kermit's African-American friend and after many points made about the lasting impact of slavery.

So I'm just about finished with having to re-state or re-clarify our viewpoints over and over, just because some people just cannot get it.

By the way, INeedAdvice, I don't agree with everything you say, but I appreciate your constructive viewpoints. I do agree with you that affirmative action should ideally be modified in some way to significantly account for circumstances beyond race. However, race still must be a significant factor, in my opinion, for all the reasons that I've mentioned. All in all, creating an ideal AA policy would be a very daunting task.
 
Some Points:

1) The law does not support AA as much as people seem to think it does

2) All the people who get into med school are "qualified" Lower stats dont make you unqualified. You dont "lose your seat" to a less qualified person because you dont earn a seat just by having higher stats that one other person.

3) High MCAT's and GPA's do not make a successful doctor or a successful healthcare industry.

4) If you do away with AA, are you also going to have safeguards in place to guarantee that a person with lower stats does not get into a certain medical school, residency, or get a job because of his familial ties or connections?

5) The diversity formula does not mean that minorities with lower stats get favored over caucasians with higher stats. They just want a good mix of people to serve the diverse population. For example, a white person with lower stats could get a seat over a black person with higher stats because the black "quota" has already been satisfied from qualified black applicants.
 
First off I will say that I haven't read all 171 posts but I think I get the jest of what is being discussed and just have one short comment.

As a white male, I always find it funny when other caucasian (particularly males) cry discrimination. It is very comical. :rolleyes:
 
INeedAdvice,

You need advice? I'll give you some advice. Straighten-out mis-quotations and logical contradictions in your posts before you hit the "Add Reply" button. Case in point; Misskitty posted "As for the lowering standards, if these people with lower stats graduate and become excellent physicians...". You proceeded to mis-quote, comment, and joke as follows;

•••quote:•••Originally posted by INeedAdvice:
• •••quote:•••As for the lowering of standards, if these people with lower stats graduate ••••Graduate? That's funny because I've always heard that "P=MD". <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> In other words, you have to be pretty brain dead to not pass your classes & the boards (whether or not you'll get accepted into the residency of your choice if you barely pass, is a whole other issue :) ). •••••On the other hand, I ABSOLUTELY agree with you that consideration should be given to econimocally and socially disadvantaged people of all races. There's no reason that Billy (who is white) in Appalachia should not be given a fair shot (additional consideration) at med school, law school, or whatever he chooses. AA can be expanded to include poor people of all races as benefactors. The fact of the matter, however, is that AA's reason for being is more to increase the #s of minority physicians, than to help poor disadvantaged applicants get into med schools. If you don't see any reason for more minority physicians, then go through the previous posts in which other posters have clearly articulated the reasons.

•••quote:••••
•••quote:•••I truly believe that in 2 or 3 generations, mean MCAT scores for URMs will be comparable to all other ethnic groups due in part to AA.••••A very interesting report came out last Summer concerning a long-term study of AA recipients and their children. Unfortunately, the results were unexpected. It showed that the URM children of AA recipients were no more successful than the previous generations of URM's who hadn't received AA. The study's findings were all over the media outlets....if anyone is familiar with this study, please post a link where it can be found. •••••What I do find interesting is the way you claim to support AA (albeit a modified version), and yet argue vehemently against AA. You suggest AA does not work. In so doing, you're indirectly claiming that a parent's level of education plays NO role on the kid's academic performance. I'll let you say Bull for me. I'll tell you of another study that showed that by age 4, the average kid with (Doc, Lawyer, prof,..)-type parents had a much larger vocabulary than most adult single mothers in the Chicago inner-city.

•••quote:••••
•••quote:•••he basically said Blacks should be thankful that slavery "saved" them from Africa.••••Another stat: If you look at "Black America" as whole, it would be the 5th wealthiest nation in the world. (And I'm NOT inferring any justification of slavery in ANY WAY).•••••How is such a huge discrepancy a good thing? :confused: An ethnic sub-population living in the world's richest country would only be the 5th richest nation in the world. With that little fact you just presnted a very cogent reason for race-based AA; and consequently contradicted yourself AGAIN.

I hope you don't take my post as an insult or an attack. This is in no way my intention. I apologize already if it comes off as such.
 
I think the worst part of this argument is the fact that med schools are 8% minority. Obviously that 8% is taking your spot right? Not to mention that getting into med school isn't just about numbers. If you were on an adcom, would you take an applicant with a 3.8 and 30 who had no EC, and had never been exposed to the medical community over an applicant with a 28 and a 3.6 who had plenty, and a great personal essay as well? If med schools went purely by numbers alone, there would still be diversity, because believe it or not there are URM with excellent stats, but the other qualities that med schools look for would possibly be missing in a lot of the students and future doctors.
 
Original - No I don't take it as an attack, but don't expect me to not respond to someone who starts off their post with: "Straighten-out mis-quotations and logical contradictions in your posts". :wink:

ORIGINAL WROTE: •••quote:•••Misskitty posted "As for the lowering standards, if these people with lower stats graduate and become excellent physicians...". You proceeded to mis-quote, comment, and joke as follows;••••Joke? God forbid to bring levity to a heated debate!! What was I thinking? <img border="0" alt="[Wowie]" title="" src="graemlins/wowie.gif" />

Seriously, my point to be made was that graduating doesn't exactly say much. P=MD....remember that response? In quick and dirty terms ... you could take an average student, place him in med school, and chances are, he'll graduate. Is that a huge educational success? IMHO, you can't say, because even the brain dead med students end up graduating. I didn't misquote her, ....as far as the 'who is an "excellent physician"' part of the thread, I purposefully left that out because I was trying not to be ascerbic. If I had left that in, I would've retorted to her: "who is to say who is an excellent physician?!". That wasn't necessary. I made my point without it and held back on my ascerbic remark, but since you brought it up, then consider that directed towards you. <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> •••quote:•••"As for the lowering of standards, if these people with lower stats graduate"...Graduate? That's funny because I've always heard that "P=MD". In other words, you have to be pretty brain dead to not pass your classes & the boards</font>•••ORIGINAL wrote: •••quote:•••If you don't see any reason for more minority physicians, then go through the previous posts in which other posters have clearly articulated the reasons.••••Go to page 5 (I don't know if your enumeration is the same as mine), and I already addressed the fact that there should be additional measures added to prevent any institutionalized racism (which directly affects minorities) and the fact that poor students (of all races) would be given a boost, will affect URM's to a greater extent because a higher percentage of them are poor.

ORIGINAL WROTE: •••quote:•••What I do find interesting is the way you claim to support AA (albeit a modified version), and yet argue vehemently against AA.••••You wrote the above in response to my mentioning an AA study, in which its findings were nationally reported last Summer.

You can find it "interesting" all you want, but discussing about a legitimate report that was plastered all over the news, which specifically addressed AA, is a part of ....oh, I don't know.....an intellectual debate about AA! Duh!

And now who is using logical contradictions?! I have said repeatedly that I don't support the current AA, but I do support an affirmative action program (and I'll re-paste that post below). If I don't support the current AA, what is so "interesting" about posting a report that is about ....oh, I don't....the current AA program?! Please check your own logic, because mine is intact. :wink:

ORIGINAL WROTE: •••quote:•••How is such a huge discrepancy a good thing? An ethnic sub-population living in the world's richest country would only be the 5th richest nation in the world. With that little fact you just presnted a very cogent reason for race-based AA; and consequently contradicted yourself AGAIN.••••You wrote the above in response to my quote: "Another stat: If you look at "Black America" as whole, it would be the 5th wealthiest nation in the world. (And I'm NOT inferring any justification of slavery in ANY WAY)."

Did I ever say that it was a good thing or a bad thing? It was a stat that I thought was directly relevant to what Dr. Dad and Michelys were discussing. I was throwing it out there and it was there for either one to use. Are you implying that only Dr. Dad would've had the intellectual capacity to "use" that stat? Is Michelys incapable of doing so? "No", you say? Then what's your point? Uh, oh!! I stated something without passing a judgement?? That's not good, huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> If you call giving additional information without making a judgement a "contradiction", then I would say that your debating tactics favor deceit and/or bias. You conveniently left out that in the SAME message, I also pointed out to Pooh, that stating that "there are more poor whites than poor blacks" may not be sound because the % of poor is more relevant. Pooh is also against the current form of AA as am I. So why would I do that??!! Oooops. Was I being intellectually honest?! A moment of "impartiality"? How dare I !? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

No offense Original, but when I had differences in my opinions with Michelys and with Jasmine and with Otter, at least they debated me on the "subject matter". I can appreciate that.

I can't appreciate someone who is soley giving opinion on my debating styles. I'm not taking your post as an insult, but I didn't "get much out of it". When you have something more to offer to this debate, then I'll debate you on the subject. :wink:
 
Original - Here's the post that I said I would paste below my previous post. I'm sure you haven't had a chance to read all 170 posts, so maybe this will clarify (or muddy) the waters for you. :wink:

___________
___________
I think I've come up with a FAIR solution that incorporates both sides of the argument for and against Affirmative Action.

As someone else said, there's no use whining about what you perceive as an unfair system, because it's unlikely to change unless you start an e-mail campaign (to your friends/families/co-workers) & to talk show hosts & newspeople ([email protected], [email protected], [email protected], etcetera) to get U.S. citizens to write their Congressman or Congresswoman.

Make sure to include in your e-mail something like the following:

"Please forward this e-mail to everyone you know and also write your Congressperson about changing Affirmative Action. It takes 2 seconds to write your Representative because all you have to do is copy and paste the speech below and then go to the website": <a href="http://www.house.gov/WriteRep/" target="_blank">http://www.house.gov/WriteRep/</a>

Obviously the current system of "Affirmative Action" or "Reverse Discrimination" (depending on your point of view) isn't working:
A) Under-Represented-Minorities (URM's) think that they need Affirmative Action (AA) to succeed, but resent being given a stigma and thought of as "being let into college with lower standards" if they get into a university such as Harvard (or any college for that matter) because it could never be proven otherwise.

B) Caucasians and Asians think lower standards should not apply to someone just because of their race.

There seem to be two major problems that resulted in having to have AA in the 1st place:
1) In this country, African-Americans and other minorities have a higher percentage of poor people and as a result, end up in school systems with lesser facilities.

2) African-Americans and other minorities think that "whites" in the system are prejudiced towards them.

Concerning issue #1, as most have pointed out, this is an economic problem and could easily be dealt with by changing Affirmative Action to take income into consideration (for all races), like many other low-income programs do, such as "HEAD START" which start helping students before they're even in kindergarten.

In addition, if a "disadvantage" status could be proven (the same as a low-income status has to be proven), then it should also be taken into consideration. For example, you could prove that (a child has hopped from 1 foster home to the next, or has been abused, or has physical malformations) through court/legal documents, police, & doctor reports...

This way, Eddie Murphy's kids wouldn't have lower standards to get into school, and yet the children of Billy Bob Bubba Jackson who lives in a "white trailer park" in the hills of Appalachia (not that there's anything wrong with that), would get a boost. Of course, Affirmative Action is a short-term solution, because we need to heal the wound of "poverty" in this country (quoted because U.S. poverty is drastically different than, say, 3rd World Poverty) as a long-term solution, instead of always relying on a bandage. So that can be left up to greater minds to come up with a long-term solution to end Poverty. Oh, and while they're at it, they can come up with the solution for World Peace too. :wink:

Concerning issue #2, as has also been pointed out, there are steps of anonymous test-taking methods or other methods that could be implemented to prevent any racist teachers ("white" or "black") from raising or lowering test scores of students based on their race. Anyone who doesn't think this, then all I have to say is, we put a man on the Moon 40 years ago; I think we have the technology to come up with a more fair and anonymous system. In addition, it should be illegal for schools to ask "legacy" questions or for med schools to ask "is your relative a physician?" question.

Of course, prejudice is never going to be totally wiped out (from "blacks'" attitudes towards "whites" and vice versa), but prejudice isn't confined to race. A morbidly obese Caucasian girl with severe acne no doubt experiences more prejudice than a Black-African model such as Tyra Banks. :wink: Also, from several statements concerning this topic such as the following: •••quote:•••I don't know who was talking about white supremacist schools holding black people back, but the simple fact is that minorities do not get an adequate education because the school boards spend more money on metal detectors and security guards than books</font>•••...it seems that most people think that the 1st problem is a much bigger factor and issue than this 2nd problem anyways.

The reason why I think this solution is a fair compromise is that it will still affect African-Americans and other minorities to a greater extent since their experience of prejudice and their percentage of poor are greater than non-minorities', and their "legacy" situations are less. Therefore, it will not neglect the fact that URM physicians are necessary for serving the URM community, and it will significantly reduce the "stigma" associated with African-Americans getting into universities.

And such a solution will also take into account poor non-minority children and disadvantaged children of all races, while letting Eddie Murphy's kids fend for themselves. <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />

Start your e-mail campaigns today. :wink:
 
Not that you just wrote a whole dissertation on this futile debate...
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by kjigga:
•Not that you just wrote a whole dissertation on this futile debate...•••••LOL!! I'm killing time right now. <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />

Hey, and the last post was a just a pasting of a previous post. :wink:
 
INeed - Just wanted to address this study you keep on talking about, the one that states that children of AA beneficiaries don't do much better than their parents. Sociological change rarely happens immediately and I would really hesitate to conclude from that study that affirmative action is not effective.

There was a study conducted by sociologists that marked the trend of low weight babies in African-American families. It showed babies born to first-generation middle-class African-American families were consistently of lower birth weight than their Caucasian-American counterparts. The conclusion might be drawn that African-American babies are simply genetically inclined to be of lower birth weight... but another study countered that if you look at the second generation of babies born to middle-class families, average birth weight increases dramatically, perhaps due to better understanding of health and better nutritional habits developed over a generation. Get my point? I'd point you to the right articles but unfortunately I don't know where they are - I saw them in presentation.

Cave- God's gift to man, was it you called me? Wow. (blush).
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Papa Smurf:
•You want diversity, and you seek it from recruiting the top applicants of each group, be it white, black, yellow, or purple.•••••I'm not racist but boy do I HATE purple people! grrr.... :D :) :D :) :D
 
if considering minorities then why dont Asian-Americans count as well . . . not all of us came from a very fortunate life styles either . . . whey do we get punished even more than caucasians . . . i was talking to my prehealth counsler during my senior year . . . the average for those of Indian decent . . . had to be around 33 . .. while those for caucasion was 29-30 and then the scores went down from there . . . does that seem fair to anyone . . . my opinion, and this is my opinion, AA should not be used any longer after college . . . reason being that those who have been able to attend college should have the near the same benefits as those who attended college elsewere . . . and to be a phyician we all have to go to college . . . so after college it should really be based on skills and other personal qualities and not skin color . . . because it certianly is not fair when people abuse the system and state on there application that they are hispanic or african-american (when they are not solely of that decent or they lived a rather posh life) . .. ONLY to get into an IV league school or a school in cali. Thats just my opinion . . . and i did feel the same way as some of you did during the admissions process . . . there really is no other solution that the admissions committie can do without pissing off all the ethnic groups.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by SurgeonS4:
•if considering minorities then why dont Asian-Americans count as well . . . not all of us came from a very fortunate life styles either . . . •••••Surgeon,
Technically speaking medical schools do not actually follow AA. In fact, quotas did not originate from the original AA bill. We just seem to call it that because it is similar to what AA is and everyone understands what we mean. Asians aren't considered URM because they aren't underrepresented in the medical profession. Asians represent a larger percentage in the medical profession compared to the percentage of the national population that they are. In this thread we seem to single out whites as the only ones being negatively affected by the whole URM controversy.

It's interesting to note that Asians have faired EXTREMELY well as compared to other minorities in the country in recoverying from discrimination as recently as WWII. In fact per capita income for Asians in this country is the highest out of any race, including whites.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by INeedAdvice:
• Please check your own logic, because mine is intact. :wink:
•••••I like that :wink:
 
I agree with that statement . . . but so what if we have been termed "model minority" . . . we are still a minority . . . but whichever the case maybe . . . i still find it unfair when people abuse the system . . . i also agree that most patients would rather deal with physicians of the same race . . . african american patient with an african american doctor . . . i agree with that . . . but those african american doctors should be of the same qualifications as say a caucasian doctor . . . and those with under qualifications . . . such as scores and gpa that are subpar should not be admitted just to fill a quota . . . maybe im getting AA and quota filling mixed up . . . but my point is the same nonetheless.
 
As a non-medical person, I personally dont care what the f*ck my doctor had on his MCAT or what his undergrad GPA was. If you people havent figured that **** out yet, then I presume you will make lousy freakin doctors anyway. Its sad how much ignorance there is with a group that is supposed to be fairly educated. How many times must the same thing have to be repeated.... grades and standardized test scores don't make a successful professional! Be freakin realistic..medicine is a profession where most of the learning takes place on the job, hands-on...and that includes how a person interacts with his patients. Character, compassion, open-mindedness and communication are the things that end up differentiating from a pool of qualified people. Yes a person with lower stats than you is still qualified to be a doctor. Get your heads outta your freakin books for a minute and see what the real world is like before you talk all your ignorant **** and whine for no reason as if you deserve a spot in medical school and have earned the "right" to be a doctor because you beat XY&Z in MCAT and GPA. Open your eyes and see all the ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUV & W's who beat your MCAT and GPA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
•••quote:•••If you people havent figured that **** out yet, then I presume you will make lousy freakin doctors anyway. Its sad how much ignorance there is with a group that is supposed to be fairly educated.•••• •••quote:•••Get your heads outta your freakin books for a minute and see what the real world is like before you talk all your ignorant **** and whine for no reason as if you deserve a spot in medical school and have earned the "right" to be a doctor because you beat XY&Z in MCAT and GPA.••••Why are you ranting like an animal? Can we not have a disagreement without screaming that people are talking "ignorant ****"? How civilized is that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Most people in this country think that lowering standards for minorities is, in fact, discrimination.

Sure, Guatamalan patients may demand their rights to see a Guatamalan urologist, but regardless, this is still how most of America feels. (Not that this has anything to do with anything, but my GP is of a different color, ethnicity, and gender than I am and he speaks with a thick foreign accent. I go to him, not because he looks like my identical twin, but because he's the most qualified. But, I am not going to argue that point. If minorities want to sacrifice a doctor's other qualification for his race, then that's entirely their perogative.) But all I'm saying is that when most of America feels that lowering entry standards for a person's race is discrimination, it doesn't warrant anyone of accusing them of "talking ignorant ****."

Just because you think lowered statistics for certain minorities is fair, don't think that everyone else will. And don't scream like a wild man because the rest of America doesn't agree.
 
At the risk of belaboring the point....lowering statistics does not make a person unqualified to be a doctor! What makes your GP qualified as you say? Did u ask for his undergrad GPA and his MCAT score and compare it to the other doctors of your area? This is what I mean by ignorance, not the fact that people express their opinions. I always welcome the free exchange of ideas, however please read what people write and not just talk for the sake of talking and argue for the sake of arguing without an ounce of understanding or open-mindedness.
 
TJD,

I did not even go near your "talking points" because I wasn't about to enter into a conversation with someone who was using the language and showing the hostility that you were.

That's all that I was saying. Let's try to act civil towards each other. DAMMIT!! <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />
 
Woah, calm down....simma down. No need for <img src="http://www.contrabandent.com/cwm/s/contrib/drowned/argue.gif" alt="" /> :) Would anyone like some caramel chocolate chip cookies? :D
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Aphrodite:
•Woah, calm down....simma down. No need for <img src="http://www.contrabandent.com/cwm/s/contrib/drowned/argue.gif" alt="" /> :) Would anyone like some caramel chocolate chip cookies? :D •••••Thanks for the cookies! I was ready to throw down <img src="http://www.contrabandent.com/cwm/s/contrib/drowned/tank.gif" alt="" />
 
Jurisdoctor,
Let's just pull people out of college that have horrible grades to enter med school. While we're at it let's not require applicants to take the MCAT for entrance into med school. And once they're in medical school let's just forget about the basic science years and move straight into seeing patients and doing surgery.

I know that in order to be a good doctor you have to be able to connect with your patients, be compassionate, and have good "hands on" experience. However, you must also have a thorough understanding of what the body is like in order to use your personal skills. You have to be able to do well on tests and understand the material because before you can apply your compassion you must first know how everything works. And the more intelligent a student is, the better they will know how the body works (after study of course). It's a simple fact.

The reason med schools require good grades and MCAT is because 1.) you need to be intelligent to be a doctor 2.) you cannot quantitatively measure compassion. If you can't measure it then you can't use it to weed students out of the applicant pool.
 
By the way, how did you get that awesome little tank on there? I've never seen one of them. :cool:
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Hallm_7:
•Jurisdoctor,
Let's just pull people out of college that have horrible grades to enter med school. While we're at it let's not require applicants to take the MCAT for entrance into med school. And once they're in medical school let's just forget about the basic science years and move straight into seeing patients and doing surgery.

I know that in order to be a good doctor you have to be able to connect with your patients, be compassionate, and have good "hands on" experience. However, you must also have a thorough understanding of what the body is like in order to use your personal skills. You have to be able to do well on tests and understand the material because before you can apply your compassion you must first know how everything works. And the more intelligent a student is, the better they will know how the body works (after study of course). It's a simple fact.

The reason med schools require good grades and MCAT is because 1.) you need to be intelligent to be a doctor 2.) you cannot quantitatively measure compassion. If you can't measure it then you can't use it to weed students out of the applicant pool.•••••Once again my point is being overlooked at an attempt to shove an argument down my throat. Read and reread if you have to, I'm not going to engage in circular reasoning with anyone who does not read and analyze things before spitting out nonsensical words.
 
Circular reasoning????????
I don't see any circular reasoning in that post. I think you misunderstood what I said. All I said was that yes compassion and persoanl skills are important, but I think intelligence and books smart are just as important, if not more so. You must FIRST have an understanding of the academic and scientific aspect of medicine before you can successfully apply the compassionate part of medicine.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Hallm_7:
•By the way, how did you get that awesome little tank on there? I've never seen one of them. :cool: •••••I kinda stole the tank from Aphrodite...well not directly, but I figured out the website she used for her bickering graemlins! I'm so sneaky huh?
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Hallm_7:
•Circular reasoning????????
I don't see any circular reasoning in that post. I think you misunderstood what I said. All I said was that yes compassion and persoanl skills are important, but I think intelligence and books smart are just as important, if not more so. You must FIRST have an understanding of the academic and scientific aspect of medicine before you can successfully apply the compassionate part of medicine.•••••This entire thread has gotten out of hand. My point if anyone still cares is that just because a person with lower quants gets into medical school, it doesnt make that person unqualified as many people have stated in their posts against AA (which is not used by medical or any other schools for that matter). They want diversity and realize that it is important to the healthcare industry as a whole. In no way shape or form whatsoever did I mean to say quants are not important, because to say so would be naive. What I was responding to was this fear that there will be massive unqualified minority physicians running around practicing medicine and the only reason they are in that profession is due to their race. I do not know how else to put it except that a lower MCAT or GPA by a few points does not render a person "unqualified." Reread my first post on this thread if you need additional clarification.
 
This is ri-god-damn-diculous. This has become a futile argument. The bottom line is, on a subject like this, I (and others) will never change my (our) mind. Nothing you self-righteous dinguses (A. Caveman, LizardKing, otter, etc.) say will ever register with us because we don't care to hear your holier-than-thou bull****.

On subjects such as this, the best thing to do is to agree to disagree. All of this bickering is accomplishing nothing. We already know that some of you guys would rather give all your hard work away to someone else because of their race. NOT ME! SO F*CK OFF! :mad:

Yours truly,

Gandalf Greyhame
 
•••quote:•••On subjects such as this, the best thing to do is to agree to disagree.••••Gandalf - You can do that....and....you can read my 2nd post on page 8 & start an e-mail campaign & also e-mail your congressman. You can copy my speech, so it'll take only 2 secs to do. :wink:

P.S.
Where have I heard ri-god-damn-diculous before? Howard Stern? A line in a movie?
 
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