controversial topic???

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I'd chime in but, Dr dad says it all. Much better than I could. My sentiments, exactly!

I believe gandalf said it the other day....that there should be no race box to mark on any application. The age and sex boxes should be excluded as well. If the class turned out to be all Indians, asians or black and male ...so be it.

smedly, thanks for the support. That was kind of fun, wasn't it? . I sent you a PM.
 
How can you say that blacks and whites are equal in the same breath as you say 'we need to help the black man/woman along?'

AA proponents are walking contradictions: You people are the true racists who perpetuate the notion of the "oppressed black man" and it is you who fail to recognize that all people are equal.

Fire away.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Cure Finder:
•We need to get to the root of the problem. For example, why on average hispanics, (american) indians, and african americans score lower on the MCAT than asians and causians? We need to address, why inner-city students of Chicago (and across the nation) don't have the same computer rooms, college prep programs, tennis courts and swimming pools as their suburban counterparts? Why is it that in the first few years of college, so many minority pre-med students are "weeded out" or discouraged from choosing science related majors. Why aren't all students regardless of race or socioeconomic status able to have access to or provided the means to afford commercial MCAT programs? Those are just a few issues that are rarely talked about and even more rarely dealt with. In my opinion until we as a society are willing to address and solve these problems, then I don't think that anyone has the right to dismantle anything. To dismantle AA is equivalent to taking the stitches out of a bullet wound and putting a band-aid in its place. Like I've heard many times before "Either your part of the solution or part of the problem". WHICH ONE ARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!•••••:clap: Somebody with some sense...nice to know some of my future colleagues have their eyes open and aren't letting the fact that they didn't get into their no#1 choice blind them with anger and ignorance...
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by spicoli:
•Medical school is a level playing field. We all come in with nothing... no parental legacy. no rich family or poor crack head cousins... no president of the Pre-Medical Jackoff Association...•••••I was the president of that club at Univ of Nevada- Las Vegas. It was the best time I ever spent outside of class.
 
Pooh, basically it seems like all you do is whine and lash out incessantly but basically offer no responses to the constructive feedbacks posted by people who are for affirmative action. Without affirmative action, how do you assure that there will be (for example) enough African-American primary care physicians to serve the African-American population? You must realize that many African Americans would feel most comfortable seeing doctors of their own race; same goes with other minority groups. Without affirmative action, how do you compensate the large group of people who generally face much greater odds than Caucasians just to get through the same educational pathway?

Of course, there are exceptions. There are socioeconomically blessed Hispanics, and there are poverty-stricken whites. But, as a whole, college-educated URMs get late start in terms of surrounding themselves with supportive environment, and they have to work more hours to put themselves through school. I'm an Asian and I worked 15-20 hours/week through parts of my college years, but I knew Hispanic-Americans who had to take a year or two off from school to go help out their families back home. In light of the extra adversity that URMs face, wouldn't you actually think it'd be unfair to take affirmative action away from them?

The admissions process is certainly trying and gets to be frustrating when you consider that you've done your best to get here. So it's okay to vent on SDN at times. But DON'T blame it on the URMs. There are other reasons why you and I haven't been accepted yet.
 
I think I've come up with a FAIR solution that incorporates both sides of the argument for and against Affirmative Action.

As someone else said, there's no use whining about what you perceive as an unfair system, because it's unlikely to change unless you start an e-mail campaign (to your friends/families/co-workers) & talk show hosts & newspeople ([email protected], [email protected], [email protected], etcetera) to get U.S. citizens to write their Congressman or Congresswoman.

Make sure to include in your e-mail something like the following:

"Please forward this e-mail to everyone you know and also write your Congressperson about changing Affirmative Action. It takes 2 seconds to write your Representative because all you have to do is copy and paste the speech below and then go to the website": <a href="http://www.house.gov/WriteRep/" target="_blank">http://www.house.gov/WriteRep/</a>

Obviously the current system of "Affirmative Action" or "Reverse Discrimination" (depending on your point of view) isn't working:
A) Under-Represented-Minorities (URM's) think that they need Affirmative Action (AA) to succeed, but resent being given a stigma and thought of as "being let into college with lower standards" if they get into a university such as Harvard (or any college for that matter) because it could never be proven otherwise.

B) Caucasians and Asians think lower standards should not apply to someone just because of their race.

There seem to be two major problems that resulted in having to have AA in the 1st place:
1)
In this country, African-Americans and other minorities have a higher percentage of poor people and as a result, end up in school systems with lesser facilities.

2) African-Americans and other minorities think that "whites" in the system are prejudiced towards them.

Concerning issue #1, as most have pointed out, this is an economic problem and could easily be dealt with by changing Affirmative Action to take income into consideration (for all races), like many other low-income programs do, such as "HEAD START" which start helping students before they're even in kindergarten.

In addition, if a "disadvantage" status could be proven (the same as a low-income status has to be proven), then it should also be taken into consideration. For example, you could prove that (a child has hopped from 1 foster home to the next, or has been abused, or has physical malformations) through court/legal documents, police, & doctor reports...

This way, Eddie Murphy's kids wouldn't have lower standards to get into school, and yet the children of Billy Bob Bubba Jackson who lives in a "white trailer park" in the hills of Appalachia (not that there's anything wrong with that), would get a boost. Of course, Affirmative Action is a short-term solution, because we need to heal the wound of "poverty" in this country (quoted because U.S. poverty is drastically different than, say, 3rd World Poverty) as a long-term solution, instead of always relying on a bandage. So that can be left up to greater minds to come up with a long-term solution to end Poverty. Oh, and while they're at it, they can come up with the solution for World Peace too. :wink:

Concerning issue #2, as has also been pointed out, there are steps of anonymous test-taking methods or other methods that could be implemented to prevent any racist teachers ("white" or "black") from raising or lowering test scores of students based on their race. Anyone who doesn't think this, then all I have to say is, we put a man on the Moon 40 years ago; I think we have the technology to come up with a more fair and anonymous system. In addition, it should be illegal for schools to ask "legacy" questions or for med schools to ask "is your relative a physician?" question.

Of course, prejudice is never going to be totally wiped out (from "blacks'" attitudes towards "whites" and vice versa), but prejudice isn't confined to race. A morbidly obese Caucasian girl with severe acne no doubt experiences more prejudice than a Black-African model such as Tyra Banks. :wink: Also, from several statements concerning this topic such as the following: •••quote:•••I don't know who was talking about white supremacist schools holding black people back, but the simple fact is that minorities do not get an adequate education because the school boards spend more money on metal detectors and security guards than books</font>•••...it seems that most people think that the 1st problem is a much bigger factor and issue than this 2nd problem anyways.

The reason why I think this solution is a fair compromise is that it will still affect African-Americans and other minorities to a greater extent since their experience of prejudice and their percentage of poor are greater than non-minorities', and their "legacy" situations are less. Therefore, it will not neglect the fact that URM physicians are necessary for serving the URM community, and it will significantly reduce the "stigma" associated with African-Americans getting into universities.

And such a solution will also take into account poor non-minority children and disadvantaged children of all races, while letting Eddie Murphy's kids fend for themselves. <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />

Start your e-mail campaigns today. :wink:
 
Thanks for the "get out of your corn field" comment, but I should let you know that I have lived in New York, Philadelphia, Orlando, and San Antonio for my entire life. I have never live in the country.

You keep telling me that we should not remove AA because of the "extra adversity" that URM's face. I ask again, WHAT EXTRA ADVERSITY? I stated before that we talk about minorities as being held back because we read in in books and see it on TV, not see it in reality. Then someone comes back and tells me that "of course minorities are held back, it is well documented in books". Come on. Listen, think, don't just speak because you want to be well liked by everyone.

Instead of insulting me and others (which not only wastes time and space, but it makes it appear that you have no argument and therefore resolve to insults), answer me these two questions. Give me information, I will listen and hopefully learn something that I do not know.

1) How is it fair to call for equality on one hand and preferential treatment on the other?

2) Where is this mass discrimination taking place? A select few minorities being discriminated against does not constitute preferential treatment for an entire race. So obviously this discrimination has to be holding back minorities by the millions in many areas of life.

And just so there is no confusion, I have no problem with programs to encourage minorities to join science fields, medicine, or law, etc. I have a specific problem with using race as a factor, in any way shape or form, of determining who should make the next medical/law class of a school (or using race as a factor in anything for that matter).
 
Good post "ineedadvice". I agree it sounds like a great solution. Going by economic status and background rather than just on race.

I am all for it. I guess we need to write our congressman now 🙂 .
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by otter:
•Without affirmative action, how do you assure that there will be (for example) enough African-American primary care physicians to serve the African-American population? You must realize that many African Americans would feel most comfortable seeing doctors of their own race; same goes with other minority groups.•••••Oh, god forbid...a black man forced to see a white doctor. I hope the white doctor is nice to him. Do white doctors even treat black people? Oh gosh, I really hope so... 🙄

Get real. I guess what you're saying is that it's OK for any non-white group to have preference for a specific race of doctor? I'm white, can I please see only white doctors? Oh, all the white doctors are off today? That's OK, I'll come back tommorow to get this heart attack taken care of...

HEY OTTER,

HOW DO WE ASSURE THERE WILL BE ENOUGH MINORITY DOCTORS??!! Admit qualified minority applicants IN PROPORTION TO THEIR APPLICANT POOL!

Your faulty logic that we need to help minorities is, as Dr.Dad said, outdated, and as I say, has inherent in it the fact that you believe these minorities are in some way inferior. If you believe that they are equal, than why do we need AA?
 
•••quote:•••Good post "ineedadvice". I agree it sounds like a great solution.••••Thanks! 🙂 I put a lot of thought into it. It fully incorporates what both sides are complaining about and demanding. It really is a "win-win" solution!

•••quote:•••I am all for it. I guess we need to write our congressman now 🙂 .••••I just visited that website and wrote mine.

I also copied everything below the "Make sure to include in your e-mail .." sentence and pasted it into an e-mail and fired it off to my 'e-mail buddies'. Feel free to do the same! 😎
 
I have a question for everyone and wanted to know there thoughts. I am a hispanic male, but I am not a URM. If you look at the entire Asian pool, they are linked together. But look at the latino pool, we are split into Mexican, Puerto Rican, and other Hispanic. I have a problem with this. I'm in no way complaining that I am not a URM. But I think it is unfair that the latino pool is split up into seperate sectors. All with Asian descent are lumped together. All with a European background are lumped together. Why not the latino population? Why would I not be as qualified to serve the Latino population? As an other, we are in the same pool as Asians and Caucasians. Again, I am not complaining of my status. I just feel there needs to be some consistency in this process. What do you guys think?
 
"I just feel there needs to be some consistency in this process. What do you guys think?"

Hi Dr. Will,

I think you're right in that the process should be consistent. The proposal that was suggested about doing what's needed to cut-down on minority barriers, plus offering 'affirmative action' for people with low finances, would be consistent.

With those two obstacles addressed (systemized barriers and low finances), then it is a free system for all to participate on the most level playing field possible. Nothing in life is ever 100% fair, so there's always going to be advantages that some have over others which can't be removed without the Government playing BigBrother and unfairly sticking its nose into peoples' rights.

"Why would I not be as qualified to serve the Latino population?"

Good point. And we can take it so far concerning serving minorities with "their own kind" (which may sound bigoted, but it's really what others have already hinted about. They're just not putting it in such frank terms). After a consistently level playing field has been established, it's really up to the individual if they want to serve "their community". What I mean by that is, for instance, if there's nothing holding back Guatemalan (spelling?) students from becoming doctors...except however, none are stepping forward and even trying to become doctors, then there's not much that we can do about the Guatemalan patients that find themselves without a Guatemalan doctor. In other words, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. 🙂

Some Guatemalan patients will have to make do with having a non Guatamalan doctor. And as you've said, what's wrong with someone who speaks Spanish (or comes from a Spanish-speaking community) with serving someone who isn't necessarily of their same exact background. It's impossible to match the background of a doctor and their patient every time.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Gandalf:
•Oh, god forbid...a black man forced to see a white doctor. I hope the white doctor is nice to him. Do white doctors even treat black people? Oh gosh, I really hope so... 🙄

Get real. I guess what you're saying is that it's OK for any non-white group to have preference for a specific race of doctor? I'm white, can I please see only white doctors? Oh, all the white doctors are off today? That's OK, I'll come back tommorow to get this heart attack taken care of...

HEY OTTER,

HOW DO WE ASSURE THERE WILL BE ENOUGH MINORITY DOCTORS??!! Admit qualified minority applicants IN PROPORTION TO THEIR APPLICANT POOL!

Your faulty logic that we need to help minorities is, as Dr.Dad said, outdated, and as I say, has inherent in it the fact that you believe these minorities are in some way inferior. If you believe that they are equal, than why do we need AA?•••••First of all, I'm really sad that you'd make a blunt and ridiculous statement that my support for AA implies that I believe that minorities are inferior. 🙁 I'm not even going to respond to that.

As for your telling me to "get real" on the issue of minorities preferring to see doctors of their own race, I AM being real. I know this, because I have clinical experience with both the primary care sector and the underserved inner-city, and I'm a minority. Many patients feel it's important to have confidence in their doctor as someone who can relate to them and talk the "same language" (figuratively). You must understand that PCPs, especially family practice doctors, are people who are not only your clinicians but could also serve to some extent as a counselor and a listener. Your sarcasm completely trivializes this important and valid point.

Also, if we admit URM applicants in the same proportion to their applicant pool as Asians and Caucasians, then we would not be able to increase the number of URM medical students. But you have to understand that it takes a lot more effort and determination on the part of the URM just to get to the point of being in the applicant pool.

Dr. Dad, you were accusing us of insulting you and just putting up bs that we read somewhere in the book just so we can glamorize our AA stance. I hope you were not including me in your accusation, because I NEVER insulted you in any way. Also, the notion that URMs are generally more held back is not something that I just pulled out of my butt. Take my girlfriend, for example. She is a Chicano-American (immigrated) and was brought up along with other mostly black and Latino kids in a foster home. Not an environment that's very conducive to excelling academically. When she started college at her state school, she said she was overwhelmed for the first two years. She just couldn't keep up with the pace. She had wanted to become a dentist, but ended up getting C's in prereqs. She got really discouraged and effectively weeded herself out of the predental curriculum and went on to study business. But don't think that she's not smart or she doesn't have the drive. She's incredibly hard-working. She's doing really well in her job and doing well in a computer programming class at night. For many URMs, it takes incredible determination to make the successful transition from high school to college and to be able to stick with the premed program. I believe that, although URMs get in with lower stats, the URMs that do get in are the cream of their crop.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Dr. Will:
•I have a question for everyone and wanted to know there thoughts. I am a hispanic male, but I am not a URM. If you look at the entire Asian pool, they are linked together. But look at the latino pool, we are split into Mexican, Puerto Rican, and other Hispanic. I have a problem with this. I'm in no way complaining that I am not a URM. But I think it is unfair that the latino pool is split up into seperate sectors. All with Asian descent are lumped together. All with a European background are lumped together. Why not the latino population? Why would I not be as qualified to serve the Latino population? As an other, we are in the same pool as Asians and Caucasians. Again, I am not complaining of my status. I just feel there needs to be some consistency in this process. What do you guys think?•••••Really? So if you're a Guatemalan, you're not considered a URM? That seems strange...
 
Hello. Why doesn't everyone calm down and check out this address. We are all here to learn something about the medical field. The Voice is an undergraduate medical journal, and the latest issue can be found <a href="http://thevoice.ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">HERE</a>.
 
"So if you're a Guatemalan, you're not considered a URM?"

Otter - I brought up the Guatemalan scenario. It was just an example. :wink:
 
otter
I do whine, but I wouldn't say that I lash out. I do not blame URMs for anything..they are just caught up in this system.

My response to the AA proponents would be a repetition of what others (Drdad, gandalf and IneedA) have said before. I share their sentiments exactly, but they have a better ability to express them. However, I will continue to let you know when I agree and when I disagree. For example, I agree with Drdad, gandalf and IneedA and I disagree with you. I do share aspects of curefinders opinion that there is an underlying problem that desperately needs to be solved. Though, I'd prefer to revise the analogy given by curefinder. I think it's more appropriate to say "AA is the BandAid covering the bullet wound".
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Tuesday Weld:
•"So if you're a Guatemalan, you're not considered a URM?"

Otter - I brought up the Guatemalan scenario. It was just an example. :wink: •••••Oh no, it was a mere coincidence that I also brought up Guatemalan as an example. I hadn't even seen your post yet when I replied to Dr. Will! I swear... How weird <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
 
Pooh2, I think we should just agree to disagree on this. 🙂
 
What if we performed a study which found that people with mental ******ation prefered doctors who also had MR? Would we then have to allow a certain number of MR people into each medical school to increase the # of MR doctors? I guess I just think that the quality of the doctor is more important then what they look like. (and that people in the end will receive better care from the more qualified doctor)
 
A.CaveMan: nice post. I missed it the first time around.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Gandalf:
• You people are the true racists•••••Gandalf: That is a truly ugly thing to say.

CureFinder: Awesome first post! Welcome to SDN!! Can't wait to hear more from you!!! 🙂

Dr. Dad, and INeedAdvice: the problem is not with predjudice and oppression of minorities who have already made it into college, but with the poor living conditions and educational systems (we're talking neighborhood schools here, not about your peers in college) that the predjudice and oppression from the past have spawned and that keep so many minority kids from acheiving their potential.

INeedAdvice: nice try, but would that it were so easy a problem to solve. Tell me, what about the fact that a black person who is poor is doubly handicapped, whereas the poor white person never faces any problems based solely on their skin color? And if you don't think these two statements are true, then I don't know where you come from.

Otter: thanks for speaking up. Yes, it is true that a Guatemalan would not be considered URM. At first it seems odd, but when you think that they're trying to identify groups of underprivileged minoirites in this country, then it's not so odd. There just aren't enough Guatemalans -- they're not a true US minority, whereas there are quite a lot of Mexican American/Chicanos and Puerto Ricans.

pooh2: Well, I guess I finally couldn't leave it at Welcome to SDN. It's too bad you are blaming your situation on URM's. There aren't that many of them applying to med schools, and most of the ones who are have overcome incredible odds (not all, I grant you, but they all have faced predjudice and discrimination that whites will never know). The process cannot be made completely rational -- lots of people with your stats got in, some didn't. You have no idea who you were being compared against -- could be another white woman with your same stats but they liked her PS better -- so I think it's ridiculous to blame AA for your result. Some 4.0's with high MCATs get rejected. It's a crapshoot, because adcoms cannot reduce every application to a number and put them all in numerical rank. The fact is that adcoms value diversity and want some URMs in their classes. They also value EC's and want some musicians and athletes. Why aren't you complaining about the fact that people with lower MCATs than yours who were outstanding musicians or athletes have gotten in? Adcoms do value non-URM applicants who have overcome socio/economic hardship. There is a speccific place on the AMCAS app to describe any adverse situations you may have encountered as a child, and you don't have to be a URM to do so.

Btw, the most respected dermatologist in Anchorage is a DO. But maybe living with the "stigma" a being a DO will teach you some compassion for others who've lived with far worse "stigmas."
 
•••quote:••••Oh no, it was a mere coincidence that I also brought up Guatemalan as an example. I hadn't even seen your post yet when I replied to Dr. Will! I swear... How weird <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> •••••<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> THAT IS WIEEEEERD!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Spooky! I'm scared! <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />

"She is a Chicano-American (immigrated) and was brought up ...in a foster home"

This is a legitimate issue. I could see how a student should have a chance to explain themselves to a college if they've had an unusual circumstance. Children that come from foster homes. Children that have been abused. Children that are physically deformed.

My question is, is that "Hardship" secion on AMCAS a part of the Affirmative Action consideration?

Schools act on Affirmative Action. But do they act on Hardships?? Is there an incentive for them to act?
 
SMW, thanks for putting the foot down and coming to my rescue. In all my ramblings, if only I could've said it half as well. :clap:
 
Bump for anyone that knows about AMCAS's Hardship section. 😛
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Tuesday Weld:
•My question is, is that "Hardship" secion on AMCAS a part of the Affirmative Action consideration? Schools act on Affirmative Action. But do they act on Hardships?? Is there an incentive for them to act?•••••The "disadvantaged" section on the AMCAS can be filled out by anyone who chooses to, regardless of URM status. Likewise, a URM can opt not to fill out the disadvantaged section. I think there is the same incentive for them to accept "disadvantaged" applicants as there is to accept URM's -- diversity of the class.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by SMW:

INeedAdvice: nice try, but would that it were so easy a problem to solve. Tell me, what about the fact that a black person who is poor is doubly handicapped, whereas the poor white person never faces any problems based solely on their skin color? And if you don't think these two statements are true, then I don't know where you come from.•••••Now wait a minute, this is exactly what I am refering to. If blacks and whites are equal, then why does their black skin cause all of these problems? Otter is talking about blacks "speaking a different language". I guess this is the basis for our disagreement is that I feel whites and blacks are equal 100%...I mean 100% no difference. You apparently feel that blacks and whites are different in many ways. In other words, it is not just a skin color (as we have been taught in grade school).

My daughter is half black/half white and I am going to teach her not to fill in the race category on anything she fills out. I feel in my heart of hearts that it is innapropriate to use race as a factor for anything (with good intentions or bad intentions). We will never take down the race barriers in this country until we stop asking.
 
I am simply flabbergasted that such intelligent people can make such stereotypical and borderline ignorant statements.

For those of you who think 'minority' shouldn't even be an issue...WHAT?! From what history books have you pored over that show minorities on an 'equal' playing field as our fellow Anglo-Americans?! I'm just really interested in knowing where you can come to this conclusion...based on facts that is, not just utopian ideas of what race 'should' be.

I'm all for no minority considerations. I'm all for black = white, as Dr. Dad says. The reality, however, is that TODAY, as in THE PAST, that simply is not so. This thread should prove testimony to that.

I simply hope that this dialogue can open respectful talk between obviously intelligent people. As a 'URM' I understand the complaints pooh2 and others have made, and I respect their opinions, however different from my own they may be. Medical school admissions, however, should be taken on a more personal level instead of looking for outer sources of why you didn't 'make it' to medical school. For your sake, pooh2, why don't you look at your own file and reflect on how you can try again instead of being angry at something that is obviously not getting you anywhere concerning the process. All I'm saying is that I wish you the best of luck in the process and that maybe you should just take personal consideration into why the admissions committees haven't looked as favorably upon you as you think you deserve.

By the way, Dr. Dad--what exactly is with that "half breed" comment? As a father of a African-American/Caucasian child, I would think you'd be offended even at the term. I myself am mainland Puerto Rican and African-American (which is redundant, but ask me about it with questions) and referring to people of mixed races as a "half breed"?! Like, sheep, dogs, and like horses are "breeds"!

Anyways, I take everyone's comments with due respect. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks right. 😎
 
Ehm, Dr. Dad, what's up with this? Can you explain your opinion a bit more?!:

"I read a controversial book a while back that said that black people are actually thankful that there forefathers had to go through slavery because it bought them the huge opportunity that they have today. If they were never taken from Africa, they would still be living in tribes and dancing around fires. They certainly would not be going to college or anything like that."

Question: What "huge" opportunity?! If you're speaking of 'equality' in America, slavery didn't bring that. If you're speaking of the All-American dream of the United States, ehm, considering civil rights occurred in the sixties, that's only been an issued, and most certainly not a GUARANTEED one for less than 30 years. (And people wonder why race is an issue.)

Side comment: Africa had plenty of advanced civilizations. Ancient Egypt being the most popular. Nigeria had the Yorubas. Ghana had their own tribes. Maybe instead of reading this stupid book you should have read about one of them instead of thinking all Africans did was run around the campfire all damn day.

Side comment #2: Oh please, because God forbid there are any places of higher learning attainable in that whole continent!

OK I take it maybe you were sleepy or something writing such a thing. Or maybe you still see the validity in that joke of a paragraph. Just wanted to bring that in the thread.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Dr. Dad:
If blacks and whites are equal, then why does their black skin cause all of these problems? Otter is talking about blacks "speaking a different language". I guess this is the basis for our disagreement is that I feel whites and blacks are equal 100%...I mean 100% no difference. You apparently feel that blacks and whites are different in many ways. In other words, it is not just a skin color (as we have been taught in grade school)...

We will never take down the race barriers in this country until we stop asking.[/QB]••••Exactly!

And if my style of writing (like all the scary sarcasm I use) offends anyone, please:

1. Grow up.
(and/or)
2. Get real, not everyone in the world is PC. 😛
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by otter:
•First of all, I'm really sad that you'd make a blunt and ridiculous statement that my support for AA implies that I believe that minorities are inferior. 🙁 I'm not even going to respond to that.•••••That is because you have nothing to say.
 
Ok, I can see that I am being misunderstood a bit. The whole book thing was not something that I necessarily agree with 100%, nor was it something that I disagree with 100%. It was more or less food for thought from a book that I read. Maybe it would have been better not to include that because it seems to be distracting to the issue. I apologize that it offended you. I do believe there are far more oportunities in America, than there are in the middle of the Congo. I do not believe anybody can argue that point.

As far as the half breed thing, it honestly does not bother me (maybe that is wrong but I am being honest). I did not perceive it as a racial slur.

My point over eveything else, is that I don't believe race should be a factor in anything from jobs to schools to anything else. It is a reminder of how our races are not equal.

Go ahead drag me through the mud some more....

I really would prefer to speak to people who would like to add something, or maybe add a different angle, or a fact, or something that will allow the rest of us to think and perhaps learn something (on either side). The constant bickering about how pooh2 is whining and I am ignorant, etc is just not adding to the conversation at all.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Dr. Dad:
If blacks and whites are equal, then why does their black skin cause all of these problems? Otter is talking about blacks "speaking a different language". [/QB]••••Dr. Dad, please be very careful how you quote people. This is what I said in the exact words: 'Many patients feel it's important to have confidence in their doctor as someone who can relate to them and talk the "same language" (figuratively).' I made that statement in reference to the need that many minorities feel in having primary care physicians who can truly relate to them.

•••quote:•••I really would prefer to speak to people who would like to add something, or maybe add a different angle, or a fact, or something that will allow the rest of us to think and perhaps learn something (on either side). The constant bickering about how pooh2 is whining and I am ignorant, etc is just not adding to the conversation at all. [/QB]••••What?! Are you really saying that the posts by Michelys, SMW, CureFinder and myself have been merely focused on calling you ignorant and calling pooh2 a whiner? I have made constructive arguments and brought up examples of URMs having to overcome obstacles. What are you talking about?!
 
•••quote:•••Really? So if you're a Guatemalan, you're not considered a URM? That seems strange... ••••Hi Otter,
I agree that it does seem strange. But remember that Central Americans can share a similar culture, but they could be 1 of the 3 races:

Many are descendants of the Asians that migrated to that region over ten thousand years ago and are "indigenous native Central American indians".

Some are descendants of Black-African slaves. Also, many "South of the Border" citizens are of European descent, so they are Caucasian.... but since most of Southern Europe conquered that region, they are not "light-skinned" Caucasians.

Just like everyone from geographical Africa isn't racially Black-African. Northern Africans and North Eastern Africans are of Arabic descent that have lived there for hundreds of thousands of years. They're dark-skinned Caucasians. Sub-Saharan Africans are mainly Black-African.

Not everyone that lives in Asia is racially Asian. In places like Afganistan (which is geographically Asia), many are Asian, but the Pashtun tribe are Caucasian. But they're both of roughly the same skin tone.

Not all Caucasians have light skin (actually, the majority of Caucasians world-wide have rather dark skin). And there are Northern Asians that are as "white" as most Europeans. Skin color doesn't necessarily determine one's race.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Michelys:
•Side comment: Africa had plenty of advanced civilizations. Ancient Egypt being the most popular.•••••The most popular among Afrocentric scholars, that is. This hypothesis is dismissed as a joke by nearly all scholars.
 
SMW wrote:
•••quote:•••Dr. Dad, and INeedAdvice: the problem is not with predjudice and oppression of minorities who have already made it into college, but with the poor living conditions and educational systems</font>•••SMW - This is exactly what I said. I never mentioned any stipulation about "already making it into college" and I specifically addressed the poor educational systems and poor living conditions. Please go back and re-read what I wrote.

SMW wrote:
•••quote:•••INeedAdvice: nice try, but would that it were so easy a problem to solve. Tell me, what about the fact that a black person who is poor is doubly handicapped, whereas the poor white person never faces any problems based solely on their skin color?••••SMW - Again, I never mentioned taking away the low educational standards that already exist for "a black person who is poor". Again, please go back and re-read what I wrote.
 
•••quote:•••I think there is the same incentive for them to accept "disadvantaged" applicants as there is to accept URM's -- diversity of the class.••••No, that's not true. Currently, the only enforced incentive that educational systems have are to lower their standards to accept URM's. The "disadvantaged" status isn't forced upon them.

Perhaps educational systems should have similar incentives to accept low-income students (of all races), and also "disadvantaged" students, if they can prove their status (exactly how low-income students should have to prove their status). For example, the situation that otter described is very real (a child, of any race, having to hop from 1 foster home to another). This could be proven with legal documents. Other examples that were already brought up (abuse, physical malformities, ...) could be proven with court documents/police reports, doctor reports, ... I think it's just as important (if not more important) to help abused kids as it is to help low-income kids. I think I'll re-write my Congressman again. :wink:
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Michelys:
•Ehm, Dr. Dad, what's up with this? Can you explain your opinion a bit more?!:

"I read a controversial book a while back that said that black people are actually thankful that there forefathers had to go through slavery because it bought them the huge opportunity that they have today. If they were never taken from Africa, they would still be living in tribes and dancing around fires. They certainly would not be going to college or anything like that."

•••••Dr Daddy,

I'm disappointed that you posted that. Granted you don't agree 100% with the above quote; but you used the above piece as support for your arguement whatever that may be. I've found your posts rather eloquent and compelling till this one. Not cool. 😎 (not). You can look back a few posts for my thoughts on AA.

FYI I'm posting from Africa right now, and though it would definitely be fun to be clapping and dancing naked around a wildfire, I'm yet to see this ritual <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> . Instead I was at the University of Ilorin school of medicine convocation ceremony just yesterday. 166 medical students graduated with their MBBS degrees. It was a beautiful experience. You should have been there and brought your daughter along as well. What's more intruiguing is the fact that most of those grads will go on to do more "good" than several american med school graduates. Even more amazing is the fact that almost none of them will be rewarded with bentleys and 6 $-figure incomes. Yet they'll ceaselessly pour out their hearts for the betterment of humanity. Get it together.

my 2 Naira 68 kobo (~ $0.02 😀 )
 
Chad
what do you mean by that?
Are you saying that Egypt is a joke to white people?
im just asking because ive never heard anyone make such a comment in my life.
 
"Are you saying that Egypt is a joke"

I too have never heard of Egypt itself being a joke. But I'm sure you've heard of the lunatics that claim that Ancient Egyptians were not Egyptians. There are all kinds of stories ranging from they were aliens or Atlantians or "fill-in-the-blank" . These are just scary people that are akin to snake oil salesmen.

But even though no one takes them seriously, Egyptians are deeply offended (and rightfully so), when they hear such outrageous claims. It's as if someone else is claiming that the Egyptians don't have their own history. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

How would Italians feel if all of a sudden there were some idiots that claimed that Ancient Romans weren't really Roman? Or how would the Chinese feel if some lunatics claimed that all of those Dynsasties weren't really Chinese? Pretty pissed off, I bet.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by psyc.lover:
•Chad
what do you mean by that?
Are you saying that Egypt is a joke to white people?
im just asking because ive never heard anyone make such a comment in my life.•••••I'm certainly not saying that ancient Egypt is a joke to white people. Ancient Egypt was a great civilization. I'm referring to the Afrocentric "theories" of Ancient Egypt, which I thought michelys was referring to. Scholars from this camp believe that ancient Egypt was a black civilization, and that the Greeks stole all of their ideas from a great library that these people had constructed. I was simply stating that this Afrocentric interpretation of ancient Egypt is considered a joke by most scholars. This doesn't mean it isn't true; it's just that the hypothesis is dismissed by nearly all scholars. (Interestingly, the idea of a black Egyptian civilization was promulgated by Bernal, a white guy, in his book Black Athena).
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Dr. Dad:
•Now wait a minute, this is exactly what I am refering to. If blacks and whites are equal, then why does their black skin cause all of these problems? Otter is talking about blacks "speaking a different language". I guess this is the basis for our disagreement is that I feel whites and blacks are equal 100%...I mean 100% no difference. You apparently feel that blacks and whites are different in many ways. In other words, it is not just a skin color (as we have been taught in grade school).

My daughter is half black/half white and I am going to teach her not to fill in the race category on anything she fills out. I feel in my heart of hearts that it is innapropriate to use race as a factor for anything (with good intentions or bad intentions). We will never take down the race barriers in this country until we stop asking.•••••Blacks and whites are not inherently different, except for their skin color, but because of their skin color the majority of blacks in the US face a daunting array of obstacles including poverty, poor health care, lack of educational opportunities, and all face prejudice -- the legacy of their enslavement in this country.

Teach your daughter what you will, I fear she will learn this (although I hope with all my heart for her that I am wrong), even if you refuse to acknowledge it. I can see how fear for your daughter might make you not want to acknowledge it. But I think she would be better served by your opening your eyes to the realities and not being blinded by the ideals of race relations in this country.
 
• •••quote:•••
Originally posted by Dr. Dad

"I read a controversial book a while back that said that black people are actually thankful that there forefathers had to go through slavery because it bought them the huge opportunity that they have today. If they were never taken from Africa, they would still be living in tribes and dancing around fires. They certainly would not be going to college or anything like that."•••••

Dr. Dad, you say you don't necessarily agree with your statement. Okay, then why did you throw this into the mix? The statement is so ridiculous you shouldn't agree with it at all, NO PERCENT, and it has NO relevance to our discussion. An African-American person getting into college does not erase--or even begin to mitigate--the horrors of his or her ancestors being kidnapped, tortured, beaten, and systematically oppressed for hundreds of years. Where's the balance here?

So what exactly do you find agreeable with this statement? Essentially you're suggesting that Blacks owe America more than America owes Blacks.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by INeedAdvice:
•SMW - This is exactly what I said. I never mentioned any stipulation about "already making it into college" and I specifically addressed the poor educational systems and poor living conditions. Please go back and re-read what I wrote.

I never mentioned taking away the low educational standards that already exist for "a black person who is poor". •••••It may have been Dr. Dad who mentioned that he didn't see his college peers of color as being deprived. Just because there are minorities who have made it into college, doesn't mean that they didn't overcome obstacles to get there, and that there are many more children still facing those obstacles who may or may not make it, and who could eventually use a little boost in the way of AA. I did re-read what you wrote, but I still don't see that you've proposed any workable alternative.

Nice of you to leave poverty level blacks their "low educational standards."
 
•••quote:•••It may have been Dr. Dad who mentioned that</font>•••Hi SMW,
No problem. I figured that you read it in a message other than mine. :wink:

•••quote:•••Nice of you to leave poverty level blacks their "low educational standards."••••No need for the sarcasm. Since I am for (not against) an AA program for poor kids (of all races, colors, & creeds) and for disadvantaged kids (of all races, colors, & creeds), I'm not going to ask for lower standards and then call it something else.

BTW, nice of you to not argue against giving poverty level non-blacks "low educational standards." :wink:
 
My daughter is half black/half white and I am going to teach her not to fill in the race category on anything she fills out. I feel in my heart of hearts that it is inappropriate to use race as a factor for anything (with good intentions or bad intentions). We will never take down the race barriers in this country until we stop asking.

Dear Dr Dad,
I believe that it is time for you and I to have a heart to heart. Before I begin I would just like you to know that I've always believed that knowledge is power. So with that said, I am going to share some knowledge with you so that you can see things through my eyes. In addition, the subject that I'm going to talk about I know of from a first-hand perspective, so please don't get offended. In an earlier post you had stated that you were married to a black woman and as the result of your union you have a daughter. Seeing that you are involved in an interracial relationship, makes it even more difficult for me to understand some of your views. As a loving father, I can understand your desire to protect and shield your daughter from some of the ugliness of this world. To do otherwise would be a sin! As a loving father, I know that when you look into your daughters pretty brown eyes, all you see is the beautiful person she is today and well rounded person she will one day grow to be. However, the world itself is not as forgiving as you are. Upon first glance the world will see the lack of straightness in her hair and however faint, the brownness of her skin. The world at first glance will pass judgement and label her black, mixed, or other. Just as if you see a person, who is significantly overweight, the world's response is not to automatically look at the person within. It takes a conscious effort for many to over look physical appearance, to get to the natural beauty of the person within. What's really unfortunate is that many people in today's society refuse to get look pass ones' external appearance. This isn't a big deal when it's just someone you pass while walking down street, but it can have a huge effect, when that person is in a position of authority (teachers, employers, politicians, etc.) over you.
I would just like to make one last point. If you are truly honest with yourself, you can not deny that even today when you and your wife walk down the street hand and hand, that you do not experience stares from onlookers. These onlookers do not initially see two people in a relationship holding hands, but rather white man and a black woman holding hands. The fact that you and your wife most likely have experienced things of this nature (however rare), leaves little hope that your daughter will not experience this same type of pre-judgement. Just remember that as little has three to four decades ago, those same type of stares from onlookers ( ex. Future neighbors) had that power to determine which areas of Texas you and your family could reside in.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by INeedAdvice:
• •••quote:•••Really? So if you're a Guatemalan, you're not considered a URM? That seems strange... ••••Hi Otter,
I agree that it does seem strange. But remember that Central Americans can share a similar culture, but they could be 1 of the 3 races:

Many are descendants of the Asians that migrated to that region over ten thousand years ago and are "indigenous native Central American indians".

Some are descendants of Black-African slaves. Also, many "South of the Border" citizens are of European descent, so they are Caucasian.... but since most of Southern Europe conquered that region, they are not "light-skinned" Caucasians.

Just like everyone from geographical Africa isn't racially Black-African. Northern Africans and North Eastern Africans are of Arabic descent that have lived there for hundreds of thousands of years. They're dark-skinned Caucasians. Sub-Saharan Africans are mainly Black-African.

Not everyone that lives in Asia is racially Asian. In places like Afganistan (which is geographically Asia), many are Asian, but the Pashtun tribe are Caucasian. But they're both of roughly the same skin tone.

Not all Caucasians have light skin (actually, the majority of Caucasians world-wide have rather dark skin). And there are Northern Asians that are as "white" as most Europeans. Skin color doesn't necessarily determine one's race.•••••I appreciate the information, but I'm well aware of the racial diversity within a region. I posed the original who's-considered-URM question with Guatemalans as an example, because Guatemalan immigrants face similar plights in America as do Chicanos and because you'd think that Guatemalan physicians would be well-equipped to serve the underserved Chicano population because of similar language and culture.
 
If medical schools are all about diversity they need to make a box that you can check yes or no concerning culutral redneckness. <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />
 
LIZARD ""
"An African-American person getting into college does not erase--or even begin to mitigate--the horrors of his or her ancestors being kidnapped, tortured, beaten, and systematically oppressed for hundreds of years".

Has this person getting into college ever experienced being kidnapped or tortured?
Why is it that he cannot erase the horrors of things he has, absolutely, no memory of?
This kid is probably 21 years old and never knew the world his ancestors knew...get over it.

"Essentially you're suggesting that Blacks owe America more than America owes Blacks".

Are you suggesting that America owes blacks?

SMW""
"the majority of blacks in the US face a daunting array of obstacles including poverty, poor health care, lack of educational opportunities, and all face prejudice"

Thats right, white people face none of these obstacles. We live the perfect life. Please.

The majority of poor people in this country are white....do you think they receive adequate health care or a decent education. Prejudice, is prejudice, and it comes in many forms. And chances are we've all experienced it. Try growing up as a kid with severely crossed eyes...people think you're retarted. How about the morbidly obese kid who is berated every day. What about the freckle faced red head.....the girl with the lisp... Bucky Beaver...port wine stain ...albino ...pizza face. My point is, we all possess something people will form misconceptions about. Everyone has obstacles to overcome. PLEASE explain how the obstacles a URM faces are different.

AA perpetuates the feeling of the oppression you speak about. How can it not. It offers "hand-outs"or some form of additional help to 'level the playing field'. This implies that URMs need this aide to be equal......so without it, they must be inferior. Lowering the acceptance standards for URMs implies URMs are not expected to do as well ( on the MCAT and academically) as other applicants....implying they cannot. AA is the "pick them up...while keeping them down" fix. It's a vicious cycle.
 
Yeah pooh2, you just hit the nail on the head!
 
pooh2, you are grossly misinterpreting my statements. First of all, listen to what Dr. Dad said...he basically said Blacks should be thankful that slavery "saved" them from Africa. I say that that is complete bullsh*t, that a single Black person getting into college does not in any way diminish the horrors of slavery or JUSTIFY it. Basically you and Dr. Dad are JUSTIFYING approximately 400 YEARS OF SLAVERY. There is no JUSTIFICATION so quit taking my comments out of context and WAKE THE F-UCK UP!
 
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