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Discover Your Odds of Getting into Medical School
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•••quote:••••P.S.
Where have I heard ri-god-damn-diculous before? Howard Stern? A line in a movie?•••••Dr. Evil in Austin Powers 2!! :wink:
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•••quote:•••Originally posted by Dr. Dad:
•See that is where I disagree. It sounds as if you are reading that from a book as if that is the way things are outside of reality.

I am very close to some minority friends and I have to say that I do not see it. What discrimination is taking place? Where? I have never seen it or heard of it. My black friends go to school the same as I do and go to class and do their studies, etc the same as I do. Where are these racial KKK, white supremicist schools that everyone keeps talking about as holding back black people??? We keep saying that "it so tough to grow up as a black person" and "black people are held back"....Why?Where?When? We always say the same things because we hear it in books and TV, but have we ever really seen this type of thing going on. I am not saying that there is not a black man in America somewhere right now being dicriminated against, what I am saying is that this is a far and few between occurance. Brown v. Board of Education was over forty years ago...can we move on now and start treating minorities as equals.•••••I honestly wish I had the chance to cane Dr. Dad's ass just like they did to that kid in singapore for spray painting cars. Except that in Dr. Dad's case it would be because he is so freaking stupid. He is seriously blind and is a typical racist texan. He is the kind of guy who represents the typical white male who complains about anything that is designed to help URM's help themselves. SOB, don't you know that it is bastards like you who have dominated the system for many years and now it is time for those who never had a chance to do so?
 
This is what I mean by hostility.

What is up with some of the Pro-AA'ers acting like mad men? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

I guess it's too much to expect civility?

•••quote:•••I honestly wish I had the chance to cane Dr. Dad's ass just like they did to that kid in singapore for spray painting cars. Except that in Dr. Dad's case it would be because he is so freaking stupid. He is seriously blind and is a typical racist texan. He is the kind of guy who represents the typical white male who complains when of anything that is designed to help URM's help themselves. SOB, don't you know that it is bastards like you who have dominated the system for many years and now it is time for those who never had a chance to do so? ••••
 
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I myself am a minority, but not a URM. Unfortunately, many Pacific Islanders get thrown in with Asians [we often share the same check box]. So you know for a PI to get into med school, there was a lot of hard work that needed to be done.

There's an important point made in this thread by many people in here... and I would only like to reiterate. Medical schools admit people (profound, eh?). I say it again though... medial schools admit people. We are not forced to wear white shirts with some sort of bar code in the front indicating our undergrad GPA and MCAT scores. When I was an applicant, I was more than a number... but I was also more than an ethnicity.

I was glad that when I applied... the medical schools took my WHOLE personhood into account, and I hope they are still doing the same.

My personhood which got me accepted into medical school was a culmination of many things. My GPA and MCAT scores were decent but by no means stellar. I was involved with many EC activities. I was, and am, an accomplished musician. And I am a Pacific Islander. Did that fact help me get into med school? I don't know. But I sure hope the adcoms considered it.

Of all the things to consider in our own personhoods.... scores, EC's, other accomplishments, future goals, personality, social economic background, working at a 7-11 during the summer..... yadda yadda. Why has it become so wrong to include one's ethnicity and home community as one of those components? One of the very reasons I chose to pursue medicine was, in effect, my ethnicity. I saw the health care status of my island and her people, and knew there needed to be more doctors in this underserved population. Are adcoms not allowed to look at that fact in a positive light when considering my candidacy?

Scores are just numbers. Ethnicities are just checkboxes. But both, as well as the TON of other aspects that makes us who we are, should be considered when evaluating a PERSON to be in a medical school class.

Bernardo
peds resident
 
•••quote:••••Once again my point is being overlooked at an attempt to shove an argument down my throat. Read and reread if you have to, I'm not going to engage in circular reasoning with anyone who does not read and analyze things before spitting out nonsensical words.•••••To JurisDoctor, thanks for trying but I've been there before (see all my previous posts on this thread - posted to no avail). I mean, just read this post below:

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Gandalf:
•The bottom line is, on a subject like this, I (and others) will never change my (our) mind. Nothing you self-righteous dinguses (A. Caveman, LizardKing, otter, etc.) say will ever register with us because we don't care to hear your holier-than-thou bull****.
•••••Gandalf, I try to be polite on SDN, but I just have to say that you're a close-minded ***** with ZERO ability to listen whatsoever. You even admit it yourself.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by otter:
[QB
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Gandalf:
•The bottom line is, on a subject like this, I (and others) will never change my (our) mind. Nothing you self-righteous dinguses (A. Caveman, LizardKing, otter, etc.) say will ever register with us because we don't care to hear your holier-than-thou bull****.
•••••Gandalf, I try to be polite on SDN, but I just have to say that you're a close-minded ***** with ZERO ability to listen whatsoever. You even admit it yourself.[/QB]••••Otter, FU! :D
 
I swear the world is such a cruel place. I just got a new insurance plan and have to select a new doctor. I have 2 options:

1) Personable, relates well to his patients (mainly because he speaks many different languages) is a true problem-solver and uses his life experiences to apply creative solutions to help treat his patients, undergrad GPA was 3.5 MCAT 28

2) Condescending jerk who is more concerned about making money (after all that is where he comes from) than helping people. Undergrad GPA a stellar 3.62 from a top school (his daddy's alma mater) MCAT 30
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by TheJurisDoctor:
•I swear the world is such a cruel place. I just got a new insurance plan and have to select a new doctor. I have 2 options:

1) Personable, relates well to his patients (mainly because he speaks many different languages) is a true problem-solver and uses his life experiences to apply creative solutions to help treat his patients, undergrad GPA was 3.5 MCAT 28

2) Condescending jerk who is more concerned about making money (after all that is where he comes from) than helping people. Undergrad GPA a stellar 3.62 from a top school (his daddy's alma mater) MCAT 30•••••I would go to Dr. #1: He could strike up a conversation with me in German while he fashions a cast out of driftwood and dental floss (a creative solution to a broken leg).

Or maybe I'd go to Dr. #2: He is obviously much smarter as his gpa was 0.12 higher than doc 1, and his MCAT was a whopping 2 POINTS higher. He's a super-genius who graduated from a top school. He's the man!

But wait, I'd much rather go to a disadvantaged minority doctor who had a gpa of 3.05 and an MCAT of no less than a 24 because he went to Columbia University for med school!! He's a much better doctor because schools like Columbia make better doctors! Oh, what? He shouldn't have gotten into Columbia because his grades sucked??? How did this happen? This is an outrage!

Oh no, I can't say that! That's not politically correct; I might offend someone! Forget the whole thing - I don't want people to call me a racist just because I want the most qualified doctor!

------------------------------------------------

JurisDoctor, you should stick with law, because you suck when it comes to sarcasm.

Happy Easter :D ,

Gandalf
 
I agree that no one wants to go to an a-hole of a physician. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

So.....you would have a point if a URM were less likely to be a "Condescending jerk who is more concerned about making money" and a non-URM is more likely to be a "Condescending jerk who is more concerned about making money".

Would being the operative word. <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />

•••quote:•••Originally posted by TheJurisDoctor:
•I swear the world is such a cruel place. I just got a new insurance plan and have to select a new doctor. I have 2 options:

1) Personable, relates well to his patients (mainly because he speaks many different languages) is a true problem-solver and uses his life experiences to apply creative solutions to help treat his patients, undergrad GPA was 3.5 MCAT 28

2) Condescending jerk who is more concerned about making money (after all that is where he comes from) than helping people. Undergrad GPA a stellar 3.62 from a top school (his daddy's alma mater) MCAT 30•••••
 
I didn't realize sarcasm was a profession!
 
u wanna talk about quotas for minorities....well in india there is a 50 % reservation for minorities..in college admissions, graduate school admissions, post grad admisssions and even jobs...so while i had to score a 297/300 in the sciences to get into my med school, the minority guy had to score a measly 240/300! :mad:
so whadchya say to that!
so then whats the solution...like msw etc suggested...crack the mcats!thats all..fairly simple :D
 
Why isn't anyone crying about the white kid that got into Harvard med because his great-grandfather is an alum from the years when minorities were not allowed?
 
The JurisDoctor,
I COULDN'T AGREE WITH YOU MORE! It should be against the law, imho, to ask if you are a "legacy". Or to even ask if your relative is a physician....what the heck does that have to do with the price of tea in China? :wink:

Good point...Not only is it more fair, but removing "legacy" questions and "relative" questions would help minorities to a greater extent since URM's are less likely to have been able to respond "yes" to those questions.

I updated my '<a href="http://www.studentdoctor.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009840;p=5" target="_blank">E-MAIL CAMPAIGN SPEECH</a>'. Copy my speech and write your friends/family/co-workers/talk show hosts/news anchors/ and your Congressperson! :)

•••quote:•••Originally posted by TheJurisDoctor:
•Why isn't anyone crying about the white kid that got into Harvard med because his great-grandfather is an alum from the years when minorities were not allowed?•••••
 
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Juris doctor . . . i actually talked to my admissions committie at my university and it such a very sensivitve subject and yes she did mention AA . . . so they do use it . . . now its a matter of how heavily they do.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Gandalf:
•This is ri-god-damn-diculous. This has become a futile argument. The bottom line is, on a subject like this, I (and others) will never change my (our) mind. Nothing you self-righteous dinguses (A. Caveman, LizardKing, otter, etc.) say will ever register with us because we don't care to hear your holier-than-thou bull****.

On subjects such as this, the best thing to do is to agree to disagree. All of this bickering is accomplishing nothing. We already know that some of you guys would rather give all your hard work away to someone else because of their race. NOT ME! SO F*CK OFF! :mad:

Yours truly,

Gandalf Greyhame•••••HA HA HA BWAHAHAHAHAHA
Yes, I'm a self-righteous dingus. Speak for yourself Gandalf.
 
It's funny how people who've never experienced real racism in their entire lives cry discrimination when things don't go in their favor...

You have no idea what it's like.
 
blah . . . blah . . . AA . . . blah
 
Some of the quota proponents, answer me this. Why don't you support the government and NBA mandating that whites make up whatever percetage of the NBA that they are in proportion to the population?

If you support it for med school why don't you support it for that? There are many young white kids out there that would love to play in the NBA, but don't have as good of a chance.
 
Since this is a democracy, how about we let the people decide.

When asked if affirmative action with quotas was desired:

47% do not want quotas at all
28% do not want affirmative action at all
16% want quotas
9% didn't know

75% of the people in this country do not want quotas as opposed to 16% who do.
 
You know when INeedAdvice and I were bringing up issues on this thread it wasn't rude or condescending. It was a respectful interchange and in a way quite insightful to see a different and above all, intelligent outlook.

Just because people have different ideas doesn't mean you each shouldn't respect different opinions and views.

Medicine is for extremely intelligent and extremely RESPECTFUL people. If you find yourself having your panties in a bunch over such intricate issues maybe you need to find some maturity...and dare I say some manners.

Just my two cents. Although my opinions might differ you won't see me screaming and pitching a fit. Let's just try to act like civilized people on this one for once. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by intraining:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by Dr. Dad:
•See that is where I disagree. It sounds as if you are reading that from a book as if that is the way things are outside of reality.

I am very close to some minority friends and I have to say that I do not see it. What discrimination is taking place? Where? I have never seen it or heard of it. My black friends go to school the same as I do and go to class and do their studies, etc the same as I do. Where are these racial KKK, white supremicist schools that everyone keeps talking about as holding back black people??? We keep saying that "it so tough to grow up as a black person" and "black people are held back"....Why?Where?When? We always say the same things because we hear it in books and TV, but have we ever really seen this type of thing going on. I am not saying that there is not a black man in America somewhere right now being dicriminated against, what I am saying is that this is a far and few between occurance. Brown v. Board of Education was over forty years ago...can we move on now and start treating minorities as equals.•••••I honestly wish I had the chance to cane Dr. Dad's ass just like they did to that kid in singapore for spray painting cars. Except that in Dr. Dad's case it would be because he is so freaking stupid. He is seriously blind and is a typical racist texan. He is the kind of guy who represents the typical white male who complains about anything that is designed to help URM's help themselves. SOB, don't you know that it is bastards like you who have dominated the system for many years and now it is time for those who never had a chance to do so?•••••Whoa, Whoa, slow down...

First off I am not a Texan, I just live here currently.
Second, I am anything but a typical white male.
Third, I stated that I would support programs that assist disadvantaged people in many ways. I just do not support programs that support only one race. Welfare for example is not a black program, it is a program for people of any color who need help. I do not understand how this makes me a racist.
Fourth, I would love to have a minority president. IF HE WAS QUALIFIED!!! I don't want a president who has no idea what he is doing but was elected simply because of his race. Get Colin Powell to run, I would vote for him.
 
Originally posted by Dr. Dad:
"Fourth, I would love to have a minority president. IF HE WAS QUALIFIED!!! I don't want a president who has no idea what he is doing but was elected simply because of his race. Get Colin Powell to run, I would vote for him."

I wonder if Powell will be the first African-American Pres?

He's more Caucasian than not, so I think "white America" will accept him. He's a minority, so I think many of "black America" will accept him (even though he's conservative). But you do realize, Dr. Dad, that he's Pro-Affirmative Action! <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />
 
If Colin Powell is elected president, it won't happen for a while. After Bush's 4 years, if any republican president is going to be elected again, it will be Bush. Then maybe the Republican party will nominate him. If they do, then he has his chance.
 
I have read The Bell Curve. Very good book.

As for Colin Powell being pro AA, no I did not know that, but I think it is safe to say that everyone is "pro AA" in politics because if you are not, then you lose the minority vote. As I said before it is politically incorrect to question these things because people will call you a racist, and you will lose your votes.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Dr. Dad:
•I think it is safe to say that everyone is "pro AA" in politics •••••Everyone in politics is pro-AA?!! :confused:
 
Isn't California ditching AA?
 
This is just my math, but if the Gross National Product contribution that African-Americans make in the U.S. would make this particular population of people the 5th richest nation in the world, then that is AMAZING! There was an argument made earlier that this "fact?" enforced the need for affirmative action, i.e., if the u.s. is the richest nation in the world and one of its ethnic populations would be the 5th richest then this gap points to a need for AA. Why? The black population in the U.S. is what? 17-20%? This is the reason for the 5th placing. This is ofcourse counting the U.S. placing first WITH the African American contribution as a part of it's ranking. Comparing the African American wealth against the world and a U.S. that DID NOT have the African American contribution might place the black community higher maybe 4th or even 3rd( of course this is purely speculation or worse case scenario an extremely wishful guess)! So, if Black America as a country would be 5th, then who is larger? U.S., China, Germany, Great Britain? Anyways, I don't see this statistic and the gap between African Americans' total resources and the TOTAL resources of the U.S. as any indication that AA is needed. Just my two cents. Have a nice day!
 
Hold up a sec, THE BELL CURVE is regarded by many, many scientists as a fallacy. It's so widely accepted that it's bull$hit that even my population genetics textbook rails against it! The Bell Curve's statistical methods are unsound because it never took environmental factors into account. You simply can't compare two human beings from different environments and make a blanket statement that one person is more intelligent than another. Add to that, the IQ test itself is intrinsically biased toward measuring a certain type of intelligence.

Please, keep this friggin' book out of the discussion. The Bell Curve is about right-wing politics, not about science. It's a racist book too.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by McEntrye:
•Just to jump in on this controversy, and to bump it up, I would like to refer anyone who is truly interested in a serious discussion of this question to a book that was written in the early nineties.
"The Bell Curve : Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life" by Richard J. Herrnstein, Ph.D. Psychology, Harvard University, and Charles Murray, Ph.D. Political Science, M.I.T.
c. 1994, The Free Press, A Division of Simon and Schuster, Inc., 843pp., $30.00 USA

See <a href="http://webusers.anet-stl.com/~civil/bellcurveillustration1.html" target="_blank">The Bell curve</a>
or <a href="http://www.skeptic.com/03.2.miele-murray-interview.html" target="_blank">For whom the bell curve tolls</a>

for summaries of the gist of this 845 page book.

This book ignited a huge firestorm of criticism when is was published, but no one was able to successfully critique it upon scientific grounds. The only attempted criticisms
(one by Stephen Jay Gould in the New Yorker (S.J. Gould, Curveballl, New Yorker November 28, 1994, pp. 143-144)
Couldn't really challenge the basic sociological and statistical methods that were used. Basically it was mainly attacked for political reasons by people who did not have scientific backgrounds.

Its really too long to explain in this space, but part of the book deals with race and admissions, and postulates that it is unjust and not in keeping with the spirit that this country was founded upon to select people based upon the 'group' that they fit into. They should be selected as individuals, for their own characteristics alone.

I welcome any reasoned comments and encourage all of you who seem fairly impassioned about this issue to check out the book.•••••
 
Man, you continue to amaze me with your racist viewpoint. So if you like the Bell Curve so much, Dr. Dad, I assume you believe its assumptions. And if you really are married to an African-American as you CLAIM, then are you willing to say she is less intelligent than you because of her race? Because that's essentially what the book argues, although it covers it up by concluding that "individual" differences matter more than racial differences. Are you willing to tell your wife that you believe African-Americans are intellectually inferior?

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Dr. Dad:
•I have read The Bell Curve. Very good book.

As for Colin Powell being pro AA, no I did not know that, but I think it is safe to say that everyone is "pro AA" in politics because if you are not, then you lose the minority vote. As I said before it is politically incorrect to question these things because people will call you a racist, and you will lose your votes.•••••
 
Wtf? I can't believe you directed us to those pitiful, racist, pathetically-argued links. In the first link, the person writes,

"Meanwhile, the U.S. Government continues to refuse to consider the huge body of evidence concerming low comparative African American IQ Levels. A scan of the famous bell curve from the book of that name below illustrates better than one million words the desperate position of African Americans and why the vast majority of African Americans may never succeed as hoped by our civil rights leaders."

This statement is DOWNRIGHT RIDICULOUS. You are basically agreeing with the notion that Blacks can never succeed. You are making not only an absolutist assumption (absolutist assumptions usually fall flat) but also a weakly supported one at that. How do you explain the fact that so many Blacks are successful? We're not talking a few, but many, many Blacks are successful. And no, it's NOT because of AA.

You know, instead of hiding behind these internet links and Bell Curve arguments, why don't you and Dr. Dad just bust out your white sheets? Because what you're doing right now is no more embarrassing than standing outside burning a cross. C'mon, be straightforward and show us what you really like.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by McEntrye:
•Just to jump in on this controversy, and to bump it up, I would like to refer anyone who is truly interested in a serious discussion of this question to a book that was written in the early nineties.
"The Bell Curve : Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life" by Richard J. Herrnstein, Ph.D. Psychology, Harvard University, and Charles Murray, Ph.D. Political Science, M.I.T.
c. 1994, The Free Press, A Division of Simon and Schuster, Inc., 843pp., $30.00 USA

See <a href="http://webusers.anet-stl.com/~civil/bellcurveillustration1.html" target="_blank">The Bell curve</a>
or <a href="http://www.skeptic.com/03.2.miele-murray-interview.html" target="_blank">For whom the bell curve tolls</a>

for summaries of the gist of this 845 page book.

This book ignited a huge firestorm of criticism when is was published, but no one was able to successfully critique it upon scientific grounds. The only attempted criticisms
(one by Stephen Jay Gould in the New Yorker (S.J. Gould, Curveballl, New Yorker November 28, 1994, pp. 143-144)
Couldn't really challenge the basic sociological and statistical methods that were used. Basically it was mainly attacked for political reasons by people who did not have scientific backgrounds.

Its really too long to explain in this space, but part of the book deals with race and admissions, and postulates that it is unjust and not in keeping with the spirit that this country was founded upon to select people based upon the 'group' that they fit into. They should be selected as individuals, for their own characteristics alone.

I welcome any reasoned comments and encourage all of you who seem fairly impassioned about this issue to check out the book.•••••
 
Oh, McEntrye, I found yet another ridiculous statement. By giving us the link (Bell Curve), you basically agree with this HOGWASH:

"In addition, the majority of African Americans have IQ scores below 85 points, and 85 points is borderline between ******ed and feebleminded."

Is this statement even worth arguing against? I mean listen to it, read it to yourself over and over and see if you still agree with it. If anybody's feebleminded, it's YOU, because you can't even recognize how none of these statements is backed up by anything other than Murray's pseudo-statistics.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by McEntrye:
•Just to jump in on this controversy, and to bump it up, I would like to refer anyone who is truly interested in a serious discussion of this question to a book that was written in the early nineties.
"The Bell Curve : Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life" by Richard J. Herrnstein, Ph.D. Psychology, Harvard University, and Charles Murray, Ph.D. Political Science, M.I.T.
c. 1994, The Free Press, A Division of Simon and Schuster, Inc., 843pp., $30.00 USA

See <a href="http://webusers.anet-stl.com/~civil/bellcurveillustration1.html" target="_blank">The Bell curve</a>
or <a href="http://www.skeptic.com/03.2.miele-murray-interview.html" target="_blank">For whom the bell curve tolls</a>

for summaries of the gist of this 845 page book.

This book ignited a huge firestorm of criticism when is was published, but no one was able to successfully critique it upon scientific grounds. The only attempted criticisms
(one by Stephen Jay Gould in the New Yorker (S.J. Gould, Curveballl, New Yorker November 28, 1994, pp. 143-144)
Couldn't really challenge the basic sociological and statistical methods that were used. Basically it was mainly attacked for political reasons by people who did not have scientific backgrounds.

Its really too long to explain in this space, but part of the book deals with race and admissions, and postulates that it is unjust and not in keeping with the spirit that this country was founded upon to select people based upon the 'group' that they fit into. They should be selected as individuals, for their own characteristics alone.

I welcome any reasoned comments and encourage all of you who seem fairly impassioned about this issue to check out the book.•••••
 
...you go LizardKing...ROFL...hahahahaa. I swear what some people have to come up with. :clap:
 
Here is an interesting thing I found in my area (Southern CA). I had a friend living with me for two years who was black. We tried to get the school to test his IQ but they said they were not allowed to because he was black. Anyone else heard about this.
 
Firstly, I apologize for including those links, i didn't actually read them, I just glanced. I don't agree with the racist statements on those sites. In fact, I don't agree with everything in the book, but I think it raises some issues that people are unwilling to acknowledge. If its statistics are racist, then the science is racist. Perhaps the authors made some racist conclusions, and maybe you could point out reliable sources that critique this book. I am willing to consider that the book is in fact wrong. There are, however, many interesting points about IQ and SES that are made. The only real criticism you can make is that the tests might be biased, this is addressed in the book. But, all IQ tests show the same or similar correlation, including those that are entirely pictorial, with no words. Perhaps I am also racist in favor of east Asians, because the book puts their average IQ at 105-110. Or do you think that the tests that were created by Caucasians are biased in favor of Asians?
Isn't it less of a stretch to accept that there might be differences in intelligence between people of a different genetic background?

Secondly,
My point in posting was just to say that race should not be used as criteria for the purposes of admissions to MD, LLB, MBA, undergraduate college, or any job for that matter.

Thirdly
I had hoped that this would not degenerate into personal attacks, but that seems to have been overly optimistic. I guess I wrongly expected a little maturity out of future colleagues. That right, colleagues, because most of us will be doctors in another 5 or 6 years.
 
The statistics, first and foremost, of the book are UNSOUND. The Bell Curve is entirely flawed because it never takes into account environmental factors. Most population geneticists refute the book's claims because they know you cannot correlate any trait to hereditary factors when environments are variable. To compare two populations and their traits, their two environments must be nearly identical. This is simply not the case with Blacks and Whites in America. Nor is it really the case for any two human populations except for identical twins. So if the statistics of the book are unsound, where does that leave the book? In the trash can, where it belongs with the rest of the right-wing propaganda b.s.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by McEntrye:
•Firstly, I apologize for including those links, i didn't actually read them, I just glanced. I don't agree with the racist statements on those sites. In fact, I don't agree with everything in the book, but I think it raises some issues that people are unwilling to acknowledge. If its statistics are racist, then the science is racist. Perhaps the authors made some racist conclusions, and maybe you could point out reliable sources that critique this book. I am willing to consider that the book is in fact wrong. There are, however, many interesting points about IQ and SES that are made. The only real criticism you can make is that the tests might be biased, this is addressed in the book. But, all IQ tests show the same or similar correlation, including those that are entirely pictorial, with no words. Perhaps I am also racist in favor of east Asians, because the book puts their average IQ at 105-110. Or do you think that the tests that were created by Caucasians are biased in favor of Asians?
Isn't it less of a stretch to accept that there might be differences in intelligence between people of a different genetic background?

Secondly,
My point in posting was just to say that race should not be used as criteria for the purposes of admissions to MD, LLB, MBA, undergraduate college, or any job for that matter.

Thirdly
I had hoped that this would not degenerate into personal attacks, but that seems to have been overly optimistic. I guess I wrongly expected a little maturity out of future colleagues. That right, colleagues, because most of us will be doctors in another 5 or 6 years.•••••
 
I support racial equality, and you say I should "break out my sheets" (implying that I am a KKK member).

I support mixed race marriages, and you say I look down on my black wife as being inferior to me.

I am sorry to say that I am not able to see the connection. How do you guys make the jump? I guess they were right and I was aiming way too high to expect this conversation to be contructive in any way.

At the very least I can tell you this. I have a black wife. I have a half black, half white daughter. I have taken in active role in eliminating race from my family and our lives by not answering racial oriented questions in anything. Although these may seem like minimal things, they are examples of how my family and I are taking steps to remove racial boundaries and make this country more equal. I have taken action. While you guys think that you can change the future by calling people racist on a message board but meanwhile you go back to your white girlfriend/ boyfriend, and your white jobs, and your white family, and your white friends, and your white schools, and everything white, white, white. Where I come from we call that all talk and no action. You want everyone else to contribute to making the races equal as long as you do not have to do anything outside of your own white world.

I am not making this statement to anyone in particular, nor am I making a blanket statement for everyone who disagrees with me (or agrees with me). I am however making accusations to many of you, and you know who you are.
 
Oh please, McEntrye, you had it coming. I mean, it scares me that some future doctor would be so racist. Come on, quit hiding behind those stupid statistics and just say what you really believe...that you think Blacks are dumber than Whites. You use "science" and the Bell Curve as guises to cover up your real opinions. This sort of hypocrisy has been going on for centuries...racist after racist claiming with pseudoscience as evidence that Blacks are intellectually inferior. Have you ever heard of the head measurements they used during the 19th century to claim that Blacks were dumber? It's no different now.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by McEntrye:
•Thirdly
I had hoped that this would not degenerate into personal attacks, but that seems to have been overly optimistic. I guess I wrongly expected a little maturity out of future colleagues. That right, colleagues, because most of us will be doctors in another 5 or 6 years.•••••
 
Hello, buddy, I AM NOT WHITE. It's obvious you were directing many of your comments at me. Many of those who are railing against you here are not white either. SO DO NOT ASSUME I AM WHITE.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Dr. Dad:
•I support racial equality, and you say I should "break out my sheets" (implying that I am a KKK member).

I support mixed race marriages, and you say I look down on my black wife as being inferior to me.

I am sorry to say that I am not able to see the connection. How do you guys make the jump? I guess they were right and I was aiming way too high to expect this conversation to be contructive in any way.

At the very least I can tell you this. I have a black wife. I have a half black, half white daughter. I have taken in active role in eliminating race from my family and our lives by not answering racial oriented questions in anything. Although these may seem like minimal things, they are examples of how my family and I are taking steps to remove racial boundaries and make this country more equal. I have taken action. While you guys think that you can change the future by calling people racist on a message board but meanwhile you go back to your white girlfriend/ boyfriend, and your white jobs, and your white family, and your white friends, and your white schools, and everything white, white, white. Where I come from we call that all talk and no action. You want everyone else to contribute to making the races equal as long as you do not have to do anything outside of your own white world.

I am not making this statement to anyone in particular, nor am I making a blanket statement for everyone who disagrees with me (or agrees with me). I am however making accusations to many of you, and you know who you are.•••••
 
You still haven't addressed the Bell Curve either. ANSWER THE QUESTION, do you believe your wife is dumber than you because she is Black? Because if you believe the Bell Curve, you must also believe this too.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Dr. Dad:
•I support racial equality, and you say I should "break out my sheets" (implying that I am a KKK member).

I support mixed race marriages, and you say I look down on my black wife as being inferior to me.

I am sorry to say that I am not able to see the connection. How do you guys make the jump? I guess they were right and I was aiming way too high to expect this conversation to be contructive in any way.

At the very least I can tell you this. I have a black wife. I have a half black, half white daughter. I have taken in active role in eliminating race from my family and our lives by not answering racial oriented questions in anything. Although these may seem like minimal things, they are examples of how my family and I are taking steps to remove racial boundaries and make this country more equal. I have taken action. While you guys think that you can change the future by calling people racist on a message board but meanwhile you go back to your white girlfriend/ boyfriend, and your white jobs, and your white family, and your white friends, and your white schools, and everything white, white, white. Where I come from we call that all talk and no action. You want everyone else to contribute to making the races equal as long as you do not have to do anything outside of your own white world.

I am not making this statement to anyone in particular, nor am I making a blanket statement for everyone who disagrees with me (or agrees with me). I am however making accusations to many of you, and you know who you are.•••••
 
Lizardking,
The book is not doing a linkage analysis for the exact genes that may differ between blacks and white with respect to intelligence. Your point is valid only if there is no genetic basis for intelligence.
Population geneticists accept that genetics account for 40-60% of intelligence. This has been confirmed with various studies, including adoption studies. Adoption studies are those that follow adopted children and examine correlation between biological siblings who grew up in totally different environments, and also between adopted siblings. These were often done in Denmark, because for some reason they followed a large group of adoptees for a significant number of years in the mid 20th century. When they examined the effects of environment on intelligence, there was a much stronger correlation between biological siblings than those who were genetically unrelated but were raised in the same home from an average of 3 months of age. This shows that genetic influences on IQ are quite strong, in many cases overcoming environmental influences.

Now to your specific point: The fact that environments differ is an important one, and something to bear in mind when interpreting this data. There is data, however, that is independent of most environmental differences. The Minnesota transracial adoption study(p 309-310 "The Bell Curve") followed adoptees based upon the racial background of their parents and tracked things like IQ. They found the same difference in IQ of one standard deviation between children with two African American parents and those with two Caucasian parents.

Environment does play a large role, however.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by LizardKing:
•You still haven't addressed the Bell Curve either. ANSWER THE QUESTION, do you believe your wife is dumber than you because she is Black? Because if you believe the Bell Curve, you must also believe this too.•
••••LizardKing, I can't speak for Dr.Dad's wife, but I can say with conviction that you're the dumbest one here.

Love and Kisses,

your friend,

Gandalf Stormcrow
 
Lizard,
Lets not call each other names just yet, before we know anything about each other. What evidence do you have that the stats are wrong?
Furthermore, does intelligence determine the worth of a person? I would hope that no one would claim that.
I believe in civil rights for everyone, and equal opportunities for everyone. Not more equal for some groups than others.
My sister probably has a lower IQ than I do, does that mean that i hate her? or that she is a bad person? Those are the hateful/prejudiced conclusions, not the difference itself.

Would you claim that its racist to say that african american males are better at basketball? Or that Kenyans are really good long distance runners?

Furthermore, your characterization of "The Bell Curve" as racist is unfounded. Have you read the book? The conclusions it makes are not "right-wing" by any means, they propose a more extensive social welfare network, for one thing. The authors themselves are not "right wing," one is a political liberal/social democrat (Herrenstein) and the other is a libertarian (Murray).

If you have not read the book, then your opinions are informed by the mass Media, which refused an intelligent discussion of the issue.

I would suggest doing a little more research before jumping to conclusions, and before making personal accusations.

Originally posted by LizardKing:
[QB]Oh please, McEntrye, you had it coming. I mean, it scares me that some future doctor would be so racist. Come on, quit hiding behind those stupid statistics and just say what you really believe...that you think Blacks are dumber than Whites. You use "science" and the Bell Curve as guises to cover up your real opinions. This sort of hypocrisy has been going on for centuries...racist after racist claiming with pseudoscience as evidence that Blacks are intellectually inferior. Have you ever heard of the head measurements they used during the 19th century to claim that Blacks were dumber? It's no different now.
Click to expand...
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by LizardKing:
• How do you explain the fact that so many Blacks are successful? We're not talking a few, but many, many Blacks are successful. And no, it's NOT because of AA.

•••••If there are so many successful blacks and if they acheived success without the help of Affirmative Action (which I aggree with wholeheartedly), why do we need AA at all? Evidently the successful blacks crossed all the hurdles that you seem to think are uncrossable. It seems like you have presented an argument that goes against your beliefs.
 
Lizard,

Your blanket use of the word "racist" is troubling. It is not (necessarily) racist to assert that differences in IQ test scores among races are due to genetic differences. While it may be politically incorrect, it is one possible explanation for the observed test score differences. As someone pointed out earlier, there are biological differences among races. African-Americans males, for example, have higher rates of prostate cancer than white males. This has been correlated with higher levels of testosterone. With such precedent, why is it racist to assert that intelligence might also be attributable to genetic differences?
Given the tendency of certain individuals on this board to jump to premature conclusions (Incidentally, I don't necessarily blame them given the tarnished history of IQ tests), I must make it clear that I am not advocating this viewpoint. It is, however, unfair to assert that someone is racist because he/she does.
 
Hmm...it's been a long time since I've posted here, but I had to say one thing:

While I think that it's correct to say that genetics are responsible for 40-60% of intelligence, I don't think you can use that to justify the racial differences.

A year or so ago, a study was released saying that there it is impossible to genetically determine someone's race. There isn't enough variation between the races in order to do so. Therefore, saying that there may be some sort of racial/genetic correlation is inaccurate.
 
Saying that you can't genetically determine someone's race is not the same as saying that there are no genetic differences between people of different races.
I will use sickle cell anemia as one example out of many;
In certain parts of Africa, there are quite high rates of sickle cell anemia, which occurs due to one of several point mutations in Hemoglobin genes. These parts of Afica are also places where malaria is endemic. Now, sickle cell anemia is disease that results in hypoxia due to reduced oxygen carrying capacity of the blood. It also makes the person less susceptible to the malarial parasite, which infects Red Blood Cells. So the selective pressure of the malarial parasite upon the human populations in parts of africa has resulted in high rates of sickle cell anemia these populations. When these people emigrate around the world, they of course bring their genetics, which include high rates of sickle cell anemia due to various specific mutations in specific genes. This accounts for the high rates of sickle cell anemia amoungst african americans.
So that is one obvious and well established genotypic and phenotypic difference between races.

Other genetic diseases include Tay Sachs and cystic fibrosis amoungst Azhkenazi Jews, Cooley's anemia amoungst people of Mediterranean descent, and the list goes on.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by SistaKaren:
•Hmm...it's been a long time since I've posted here, but I had to say one thing:

While I think that it's correct to say that genetics are responsible for 40-60% of intelligence, I don't think you can use that to justify the racial differences.

A year or so ago, a study was released saying that there it is impossible to genetically determine someone's race. There isn't enough variation between the races in order to do so. Therefore, saying that there may be some sort of racial/genetic correlation is inaccurate.•••••
 
There's no such thing as race, genetically speaking. If you selectively choose traits to categorize people (hair color, skin color, sickle cell, etc.), then of course you can construct races. But there's no empirical genetic method to determine someone's race. In fact, some caucasians have more genetic similarity to some middle easterners, for example, than they do with other individual caucasians. We're talking overall genetic similarity, not some disease that is limited to a certain geographic region, as your examples have to do with.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by McEntrye:
•Saying that you can't genetically determine someone's race is not the same as saying that there are no genetic differences between people of different races.
I will use sickle cell anemia as one example out of many;
In certain parts of Africa, there are quite high rates of sickle cell anemia, which occurs due to one of several point mutations in Hemoglobin genes. These parts of Afica are also places where malaria is endemic. Now, sickle cell anemia is disease that results in hypoxia due to reduced oxygen carrying capacity of the blood. It also makes the person less susceptible to the malarial parasite, which infects Red Blood Cells. So the selective pressure of the malarial parasite upon the human populations in parts of africa has resulted in high rates of sickle cell anemia these populations. When these people emigrate around the world, they of course bring their genetics, which include high rates of sickle cell anemia due to various specific mutations in specific genes. This accounts for the high rates of sickle cell anemia amoungst african americans.
So that is one obvious and well established genotypic and phenotypic difference between races.

Other genetic diseases include Tay Sachs and cystic fibrosis amoungst Azhkenazi Jews, Cooley's anemia amoungst people of Mediterranean descent, and the list goes on.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by SistaKaren:
•Hmm...it's been a long time since I've posted here, but I had to say one thing:

While I think that it's correct to say that genetics are responsible for 40-60% of intelligence, I don't think you can use that to justify the racial differences.

A year or so ago, a study was released saying that there it is impossible to genetically determine someone's race. There isn't enough variation between the races in order to do so. Therefore, saying that there may be some sort of racial/genetic correlation is inaccurate.••••••••••
 
I call a person a racist if he/she directs us to an internet site that spreads racist propaganda such as the notion that blacks are nearly "******ed." I think that's cut and dry enough. And directing the word at two specific people is not a blanket use.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by ChadS:
•Lizard,

Your blanket use of the word "racist" is troubling. It is not (necessarily) racist to assert that differences in IQ test scores among races are due to genetic differences. While it may be politically incorrect, it is one possible explanation for the observed test score differences. As someone pointed out earlier, there are biological differences among races. African-Americans males, for example, have higher rates of prostate cancer than white males. This has been correlated with higher levels of testosterone. With such precedent, why is it racist to assert that intelligence might also be attributable to genetic differences?
Given the tendency of certain individuals on this board to jump to premature conclusions (Incidentally, I don't necessarily blame them given the tarnished history of IQ tests), I must make it clear that I am not advocating this viewpoint. It is, however, unfair to assert that someone is racist because he/she does.•••••
 
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