controversial topic???

BU Medical Sciences
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In respnse to the "what if the school was filled with asians and whites" comment. I think that people will level it out by themselves. In other words, right now I am doing a bunch of EC's that I do not enjoy, I don't get paid, and they are not preparing me to be a doctor in any way, but I am doing them simply because the competition for med school implies that I need these on my record in order to compete. I have forcefully raised myself up to remain competitive. I think the same thing would happen if all the sudden one year they decided that they were only excepting the best of the best regardless of color (the best is not just GPA of course, but also hardships, interview, etc). If they get a class full of asians, so be it. If they get a class full of blacks, so be it. I think the rest of us would pick up the pace a little to remain competitive in the same way I have already done. Why do we have to have a minimum # of blacks, # of asians, etc and the rest of the slots are white. Black's and white's are not incapable. If we saw all asians walking in the door this year, you better believe next year there will be some hard studying, hard volunteering, hard EC's, to change next years admittance. I don't want to get left out in the cold, I want to be a doctor.

This is just my opinion of course, but I really feel it is accurate. If everyone else admitted to med school had a 35 minimum I would be studying years a head of time for hours a day just to compete and get a 35 on mine. I know we don't like to admit that it is a competition between pre-med's, but it really is. We are all just trying to keep up with the jones's. I am pretty confident that every person on this board is doing something right now that is not really helping him/her at all, and that they don't enjoy simply because it is expected to have certain things on your application....come on...be honest.

What do you guys think? Do you think I am pretty close here, or am I way off base? I am interested in your opinions.
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Oh yeah, I forgot to add that this, I believe is why Asians have higher stats going into med schools. I believe they know the competition is there years ahead of time and they are forced to bust a$$ and work hard to raise their stats above and beyond other races. All this to remain competitive amongst the asian application pool.

The competition works for one application pool of a particular race, and can also work for all the races combined into one application pool.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Dr. Dad:
•In other words, right now I am doing a bunch of EC's that I do not enjoy, I don't get paid, and they are not preparing me to be a doctor in any way, but I am doing them simply because the competition for med school implies that I need these on my record in order to compete. I have forcefully raised myself up to remain competitive.•••••Hmm, as with the rest of your thread, i'm pretty much in agreement. However, I'm sorry that you feel you have to do the above. The trick is to find EC's that still shine out AND you enjoy them. If you're just going through the motions just to be competitive, you're inflicting a lot of misery upon yourself and wasting not only your time, but the time of the people whom you are supposed to be benefitting. I have heard adcoms have a way of discerning whether someone truly did something because of passion, or whether they did it just to get in. They prefer the former. It doesn't matter if you haven't done tons of volunteering and research, say...there's a lot of things out there that are just as enriching. I hope you find something that you enjoy...it'll make you a happier, more well-rounded person in the end!
 
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Well, maybe I came on little strong in my message. Everything I am doing right now is not stuff that I don't enjoy. What I meant was, there have been things that I did not enjoy, but I did just because they are expected.

For example:
volunteering at a homeless shelter to cook or something, is something I would enjoy.
Shadowing a physician for a couple of hundred hours is something that would help me prepare for medicine (and would probably be fun as well).
However, volunteering at a hospital is not enjoyable and does not help you prepare in any way. All you do is paperwork and stuff like that (unless you get lucky and get a easy going supervisor). I have seen many messages on this board asking how many volunteer hours are acceptable for med school applications. They are not doing it because they enjoy it or because they feel it will prepare them, they do it to keep up with the jones's.

There are other things like the honors program. Some people do it because they enjoy it, others do it because it looks good on the application. Senior thesis - same thing. Certain majors - same thing. Taking several years of spanish - same thing. Many different volunteering programs - same thing. You get the idea. You cannot tell me that every single thing you have done to this point has been a totally happy and fun experience.

I get your point though and I agree. I try to be creative and find things to do that I enjoy.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Dr. Dad:
•
However, volunteering at a hospital is not enjoyable and does not help you prepare in any way. All you do is paperwork and stuff like that (unless you get lucky and get a easy going supervisor). I have seen many messages on this board asking how many volunteer hours are acceptable for med school applications. They are not doing it because they enjoy it or because they feel it will prepare them, they do it to keep up with the jones's.
•••••Boy, I agree with you here, Dr. Dad. In fact, I told my interviewer at UCSF this. Probably not a good idea, eh?
 
I just checked out the "MCAT under 25 topic" and decided that if I apply again next year, I'm applying as a URM.

I wanna be a URM tooooo!!!!!
 
just so you're clear Pooh...Asians aren't considered URMs. I don't know what context you said that in, but considering this is primarily a thread about where asians stand, thought I'd warn you :)
 
Hey leorl,

When did this become an Asian thread?

I am the person who started this topic and I wasn't referring to asians with my initial posting, nor am I referring to asians now. My bf is Japanese and I know how difficult it was for him to get into MS. I know what a URM is, in fact, I defined it well in the" MCAT under 25" thread. At least I believe that I have.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by pooh2:
•I just checked out the "MCAT under 25 topic" and decided that if I apply again next year, I'm applying as a URM.

I wanna be a URM tooooo!!!!!•••••Can you just decide like that to apply as a URM? Are you a URM, and if so, weren't you a URM when you applied this year? BTW, I think that your gpa/mcat should be high enough to get in somewhere, even as a white male.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by pooh2:
•I just checked out the "MCAT under 25 topic" and decided that if I apply again next year, I'm applying as a URM.

I wanna be a URM tooooo!!!!!•••••Oh boy... (sigh) You make it seem like being a minority in this country is a blessing. You are totally mistaken if you think that being a URM works to your advantage like medical school admissions does, in every aspect of your life.
 
Hey all,
I was reading this thread and thought that I would add my two cents. I am currently a fourth year medical student. My school has a rather large and diverse class, and everyone in my class deserves to be there regardless of race, age or sex. From top to bottom, the people in my class show remakable talents in art, sports, music science, etc. In addition they are some of the brightest people I have ever had the pleasure of knowing. People can bemoan how unfair or difficult the system is, but the simple fact is..the system works. If you want to be a part of this group you had better work very hard because this isn't a group for slackers. This isn't a group of second best or also ran's. If you want to be in medicine then work your @ss off and get the job done.

This kind of topic always reminds me of that quote from the movie "The Rock" when Sean Connery says to Nicholas Cage..."your best, losers always whine about their best while winners go home and F&%$ the prom queen." (sorry don't mean to offend anyone, it is just a quote :wink: ) Simply put if you were the top candidate then you wouldn't be in this situation regardless of race, sex, age, etc.

Hope I didn't offend anyone, but whining really gets to me.
 
JohnM,

I am not a URM nor am I male. If I was I wouldn't be bitching about this, I'd be getting ready to begin MS in California or maybe in Massachusetts.
My gpa is good, I have tons of health care experience but a 27 MCAT sucks.

Next year, if I apply, why can't I check a URM box?
I'd love to see if I'll get an interview.

I'll get married and change my last name..take the MCAT again (i'm sure i'll score the same) and apply as if it were my first time, but this time I'll be a URM.
 
Hey drsmith, I was the prom queen.
 
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•••quote:•••Originally posted by pooh2:
•JohnM,

I am not a URM nor am I male. If I was I wouldn't be bitching about this, I'd be getting ready to begin MS in California or maybe in Massachusetts.
My gpa is good, I have tons of health care experience but a 27 MCAT sucks.

Next year, if I apply, why can't I check a URM box?
I'd love to see if I'll get an interview.

I'll get married and change my last name..take the MCAT again (i'm sure i'll score the same) and apply as if it were my first time, but this time I'll be a URM.•••••Pooh2,

Here is what I don't get - you stated that you hold four acceptances to DO schools. I don't understand why you are complaining. When I (finally) apply, I will be ELATED to get four acceptances. Aren't you going to attend DO school in the fall? :confused: :confused: :confused:
 
pooh2,

I stand with you and I understand what you're saying. Dr.Dad, you're the man. Everything you said was right on the money.

The bottom line is this:

A doctor is a professional who performs a service for a patient. Therefore, given that the patient is entitled to the best possible service, the best doctor is one who can perform the best service. If the guy/girl who is most adept at patient care happens to be white, so be it. If he/she is black, fine. If he/she is asian, that's good too. So what I'm saying is that race should not even be a box to fill in on the AMCAS. It should be a non-issue. The issue should be medical competency.

If you were blind and you had to have surgery, you'd want the most qualified doctor. You wouldn't say "I'd like a nice black/white/asian/jewish/republican/funny/skinny (feel free to pick any combination) doctor."

In an ideal situation, the incoming med school class would reflect the percentages of races applying. That is, there are highly-qualified people of all races, and they would be picked in proportion to the number of applicants, even if the adcoms were completely blind to race. When you have a situation like the one at Yale, i.e., ~37% (if I remember correctly) minority, this is called reverse discrimination. That does not accurately reflect the percentages of applicants from each race, and therefore Yale must use quotas (obviously not only Yale, this is an example) for how many blacks, whites, etc.

Do with this what you'd like.

I remain,

Gandalf the Grey
 
chill,
I have been accepted to PCOM, LECOM, UMDNJSOM and NYCOM. I have only declined lecom so far.
When I first decided to pursue this path I didn't even know what a DO was. This application cycle I didn't even submit my osteopathic app until December, which is when reality struck and I realized I might not get a single MD interview. And I haven't. The DO was my back up.
I thought, for sure, I'd interview in my home state. Given my healthcare experience, ECs, research, and high gpa I presumed adcoms would forgive my "not so stellar" mcat. BOY, how wrong was I? All that I wanted was one or two interviews. I might sound like a bitter bitch on the SDN but in real life I'm quite charming. If they met me they would have had to accept me. My interview record (4 out of 4), isn't so bad. I keep complaining because its frustrating to see people with lower stats get interview invitations.

Most importantly, I want to be a doctor so I'll take the DO degree. And with it I'll take the 'stigma' and the constant battle to be seen as equal in the MD world which cast me aside.

I will go to school this fall, I am 29 years old and I ain't gettin' any younger. Which brings up yet another form of discrimination, doesn't it?
The whole process sucks.
 
Thank you, gandalf :clap:
 
We'll never agree on this, so I'll leave it at that.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Gandalf:
•When you have a situation like the one at Yale, i.e., ~37% (if I remember correctly) minority, this is called reverse discrimination. •••••By the way, I think the term "reverse discrimination" is so awful. It just makes it sound like the discrimination is SUPPOSED to be from Caucasians against minorities.
 
I think there are two ways to look at a less qualified URM taking a more qualified white person's spot. The one that is mentioned the most is that the playing field was leveled. What if you look at it the other way. There was a serious injustice caused to the white person. It's like reverse racism. The white person can't help he's white.

Also, why isn't there a URM status in the NBA or the NFL? According to the logic used that says the environment is better when there is diversity in a group, then no team in the NBA or NFL has a good environment. Being 80% black isn't good diversity.

What about traditionally black medical schools? Since they have close to a 100% minority population and are lacking in diversity, why doesn't someone speak up about that?
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Hallm_7:
•There was a serious injustice caused to the white person. It's like reverse racism. The white person can't help he's white.

What about traditionally black medical schools? Since they have close to a 100% minority population and are lacking in diversity, why doesn't someone speak up about that?•••••Okay, for one last time... You are missing some points about affirmative action. Affirmative action is NOT about discriminating against whites and Asians. It is about increasing diversity of the student body and about compensating for the fact that many URMs may have lacked the nurturing and supportive academic environment enjoyed by others.

Diversity of physicians is very important. First, a med student would be much better prepared to deal with the diverse clientele if his peers are also diverse. Secondly, many clients would feel comfortable going to a physician of their own race. That's totally understandable. If there's a lack of Hispanic-American physicians, where would the Hispanic clients find the doctors they feel they can relate to?

To be frank, it's really ridiculous to hear this notion that whites are victimized in this process. Pooh, I had stats that were comparable to yours last year (27 mcat, 3.6 gpa, tons of "life experience"). I only got one interview from my state school and basically just bonked in the admissions cycle. This year, I have a 30mcat, and I still have zero acceptance. If I don't get in this year, the only thought I'll have is that I have to somehow do things differently next year (apply early, apply to more schools, improve my application). To focus on this notion of being a victim and to hold grudge against URMs who have had to fight against odds just to get to the point of applying to med schools is really misguided.

I hope I didn't upset anyone. These are just my opinions. I DON'T WANT to sound this serious all the time! :)
 
The reason this discrimination continues to exist is because its not politcally correct to discuss such things. Until enough people speak up nothing will change.
 
Pooh2-
Thanks for replying, am sending you a pm.
 
Maybe I should clarify. Let's set up a scenario.

White applicant has 30 MCAT and 3.6.
URM applicant has 28 MCAT and 3.5.

The admissions committee see thats there is one spot left for the incoming class. They reject the white applicant with better stats, and accept the less qualified URM. This does happen if in MS, jobs, etc. Was the white student discriminated against? Yes. You can't deny it. He did everything he could to get into MS, and the only reason he didn't was because he was white. How is the right? How is this not discrimination?

If the incoming class is all URMs because they were all more qualified than their white fellow applicants then, then that's the way it should be. The better qualified person (however the adcoms define that) should ALWAYS get in before a less qualified applicant.
 
The scope of diversity should encompass more than skin colors, don't you think? I wouldn't want to be accepted to improve the outward apperance of the class ...if its mixed enough.
I am not the typical applicant. I am 29 with " life experience" ....I think that would add diversity to any class. Not to mention I am very pale white girl.

Not all URMs had it rough as a child and not all NON-URMs have been privileged!!!!
 
pooh2, quit your bitchin'n'moanin...you wanna get into med (md) school, work harder. Some people would be very grateful to have 4 acceptances...so quit whinin :p
 
hey vix,
You're right, I should be happy with my DO acceptances. Things could be worse....I could be forced to go to dental school! :D

Why should those who didn't work as hard as me get in....that's the question you should ask? :)
 
hey pooh, f*ck you...some of us WANT to go to dental school and NEVER considered med school in the first place. :D :p

BTW, I'm sure there are others who've worked harder than you and haven't gotten in either. Why don't you just suck it up and move on...your bitchin isn't going to change anything. You want to have a discussion about AA, have one, but that doesn't change the fact you didn't get in...if your stats were that good, you prob would've gotten in...but they weren't.
 
Hey, why don't we get to 100 posts for this topic? Papa Smurf said that he would post his thoughts on it when it got to 100. :D
 
Hi Chill,
Thanks for the PM. After MCP rejected me they sent me the post bacc information. It's a great idea but I think going through this entire app process again will kill me. I will be a DO and eventually be happy with my choice. Everything happens for a reason, right? Who knows maybe I'll really get into the OMM.
Just because I got, sort of, screwed as an "older" "whiter" applicant doesn't mean you will.
Also, I should have applied to more schools. I'm from the NE and stuck to this area regarding apps.
 
Hey vix,
right back at ya....

My stats aren't all that bad, just my MCAT. My gpa is very competitve. What's keeping you from getting into dental school? Do you think you're not working as hard as those who get in? I doubt it!
I did work hard to maintain such a high gpa and I worked my a$$ off preparing for the MCAT.
So until you take the MCAT, ace it and apply to MS you can't pass judgment on how hard one must work to gain acceptance....even to a DO school.
I know what I'll be doing this fall...how about you? :p
 
pooh,

vixen's wrong. your stats are good enough to get in in my opinion. 3.76 means that you did work very hard in school and 9's on the cat well, that's not too shabby either, some people just don't test well and we can't all get 35's. You should be proud of your accomplishment thus far.

I'm afraid that I have been all mad about people getting accepted with lower stats as well. There is nothing that you can do about it though except try not to let it make you bitter.

They may not make great doctors or they might. they might even be better than people with higher scores. who can say? stats alone can't indicate who will make a compassionate and competent doctor.

good luck with what you choose to do, do it well.
 
pooh, well at least you're admitting to your "settling" approach in life :) I could complain that being Indian makes it harder for me to get in, but I'm not...but anyways, Good luck! You'll need it! <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> :p :D

ps I know what I"ll be doing in the fall, but thanks for asking :p
 
Touche`,vixen, about the settling comment.
It's true, DO is my second choice but still I have a choice between them. The ultimate goal was to become a doctor. Won't you settle for your second choice of dental school if rejected from your first (again)?

Speaking of DS... have you been accepted this year or will you be posting another 1400 posts next fall...... might I add, concerning topics you claim to have never been interested in. :wink:
 
simseema21, vixen or whatever you're calling yourself today,

I like the SDN because you can visit other boards (MD DO DS RN...) ask questions and usually receive a helpful response. One day, I floated into the pre-dds/ddm site and asked a serious question about the mcat / dat. You snapped back with a new topic about MS rejectees wanting to become dentists. You did not welcome me into "your world".
What are you doing on this thread, anyway? It's funny that you told pooh she needs luck, when she's the one with 4 acceptances. How many acceptances do you have?

Pooh, ignore her. Have you picked a DO school yet?
 
Smedly,

I have put the full deposit down on UMDNJ and partial deposit down on PCOM. I think I'm running out my NYCOM time. I just don't know, it's a big decision. I am leaning strongly towards UMDNJ though. It's MUCH MUCH cheaper.

I wonder where our little vixen went. Did she go to play with her dental friends??????
:( :( Please come back soon. :)
 
wow, I didn't realize HOW bitter you were pooh2! I guess I'll bow down to you and smedly, being premeds and all, I didn't realize how far up the totem poll you were. I guess I can say that what I've accomplished and haven't accomplished are a result of my work ethic. I'm not the one pulling out the race card. At least I can fess up that I haven't worked so hard the first two years in college and thats whats holding me back. Anyways, I've more than proved myself w/in the past two years :D I'm sorry that you still in denial about yourself...but I'm not going to continue this any further. Like I said, good luck because it looks like you're going to need it. Just because little poohpooh didn't get her way, she blames it on being white...poor poohpooh :p

Good luck on becoming a DO! (what is that again? :wink: )

oh and about the 1400 posts, don't be a hater :)
 
please don't go to NYCOM!! I wouldn't want my friends having to deal w/poohpooh :p
 
Hey pooh2,

did you get any interviews from allopathic schools? I think what really hurt your chances was getting your application in late. I do think december is late, even for this year, as most schools did begin interviewing around aug/september.

If you feel that your DO acceptances are not going to give you the sense of accomplishment that you need (which we all need too!), then why not defer for 1 year and reapply?

I also think that your MCAT and GPA should get you into an md program..they are not bad at all. But....you have to be careful in matching your profile with schools that have average stats like yours.

Finally...as a person who was trying to avoid this thread like the plague..but couldn't resist anymore...I have to say that your concern, which is shared by a good number of applicants each year, is legitimate. But...since you can't change anything, it is best to do what you can to make your self successful.

Good luck to you in whatever you decide!

ps:Vixen aka Simseema17: I don't see where you get off insulting this poster! You, a self proclaimed slacker, cannot lecture anyone on work ethics!
 
To move this topic to a more civil tone. . .

We all must understand a couple of things regarding the med school system. First of all it is not the free market. If it was, there would be many rad and derm doctors, but they would make less money, since it is a lifestyle desirable profession.

Secondly, those of you who have volunteered/shadowed in low income innercity communities understand the distrust of minorities toward "white" medicine. The only way to overcome this to encourage more minorities to become doctors. I do not believe that a white person with a 28 MCAT will make a better doctor in the AA or hispanic community than an AA or hispanic doctor with a 25 MCAT. A doctor is more willing to work in and be accepted by the community in which s/he originates from. That might be a small town doc from a small town or an innercity doc from the innercity. The truth is that I cannot truly relate to the AA community in St. Louis since I am from a small town in Illinois. I can, however, relate to rural life.
 
hey HEY now, Vixseema,
You are the one who was rude to me in your dental forum....high and mighty on your own totem pole!!!!! Bow down if you must. We can talk about your inferiority complex on another thread.

I understand what pooh is going through. You may not. She should be allowed to bitch...haven't you, within your NUMEROUS posts, bitched repeatedly about something? Regarding the race card comment...if the DS admissions process was as difficult as the MS process you'd be complaining too. Do you see people with dat scores less than yours getting in? With much lower GPAs? Are there many URMs applying to dental programs?
 
•••quote:•••On my interviews, I very rarely saw underrepresented minorities.••••Just a statistical observation (without commenting on AA specifically), there are fewer URM's in this country, so naturally one would see fewer URM's in an interview. And you really can't look at the total # of URM's in this country anyways.....a fairer observation would be to look at those that are actually interested in competing for med school... and of that segment, you have to look at those that are as qualified when compared to everyone else that is also competing for a spot.

Here's an analogy: females make up a tiny percentage of Green Berets. One reason is because even though females make up 50% of the population, they are not interested in competing for the Green Berets. Also, just because there are those females that do compete, doesn't mean that they're going to be as qualified in PROPORTION to the males that compete to get in. Females historically don't do as well when competing against males in an athletic capacity, etcetera.

I'm not inferring that the URM's who are competing for spots aren't *capable* of doing as well as non-URM's, but historically, they don't do as well.

•••quote:•••Then the next biggest percentage were Asian American, who are people of color ("minorities"--but I don't like that term--it sounds demeaning) but not underrepresented.••••Just another observation (without getting into the AA issue), Asians aren't necessarily "people of color". Also, not all "whites" (or "light-skinned people") are Caucasian and not all "people of color" are of Black-African descent. And that's not even addressing bi-raciality....of which the vast majority (70%) of African-Americans are bi-racial via 'forced-interracial relations' during slavery (the average African-American is about one quarter Caucasian.)

Of the 3 races (Asians, Black-Africans, Caucasian), skin color does not necessarily determine one's race.

There are light-skinned CAUCASIANS:
Europeans, Russians...

and

dark-skinned CAUCASIANS ("people of color"):
People from North Africa and the Middle East (Libyans, Morrocans, Egyptians, Palestinians, Syrians, etc...), people from Western Asia (Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc...) and people from India.

And there are light-skinned ASIANS:
northern Chinese, Koreans, Mongolians, North American native Indians/Eskimos/Aleutians...

and

dark-skinned ASIANS ("people of color"):
South East Asians (Vietnamese, Thailand, etc...), South American/Central American/Caribbean/Mexican indigenous native Indians, Polynesians (natives of Tahiti, Samoa, Hawaii, etc...).
 
that is an excellent point that I was trying to make earlier. It is just a skin color, it does not mean anything.

Here is a question that I mean literally, not sarcastically:
How do you define a minority?
It has nothing to do with economic status.
Why are Mexicans considered minorities and Canadians are not?
I have a good friend who is white as a ghost (literally) but he is a jew from Isreal (born there grew up in the US), is he a minority?
Are Russians minorities, or are they considered "white"?
What is a white man who is born and raised in Africa and then comes to America? Is he a minority? He is African afterall?
What about the "mixed breeds" half white half black, etc. Where to they fit into the equation?

So many questions that are raised as to the minority issue today. It seems to me, correct me if I am wrong, that we have just spent the last 200 years trying to convince people that it is just a skin color, and now we are again in a situation where we are relying on skin color as a basis for differences.

And for all these boo-hoo white folks that keep saying that we do not know what it is like to be a minority. Stop acting as if they grew up in the circus or something. There was a time when you had a town with all white high school graduates (and a few college grads) who claimed up all the good jobs, then the black people in the town did not have good jobs, therefore the children would have to quit school to help the parents with money meaning that the children now did not have diplomas and therefore would not have good jobs...and the cycle continued. THIS DOES NOT EXIST TODAY. Sure there are some minorities without diplomas, but they do not exist as an entire community as they used to. This was when being a minority was tough, today they follow the same programs as everyone else. To grow up in a bad neighborhood is tough, to grow up without a father is tough, to grow up in poverty is tough, growing up as a minority does not equal these above categories.
 
•••quote:•••Why are Mexicans considered minorities [..]?••••Again, without commenting about AA itself, as far as race is concerned, "Hispanic" or "Latin American", etc.. is not a race. Perhaps it is a designation on corporate or academic or census polls, but those are more cultural distinctions than anything else.

Without addressing culture (which is a totally different topic)....native Mexican indians are racially "Asian" (but of course they have their own distinct culture, just as Eskimos do and native Peruvian South American indigenous indians do, ...)

Hispanics or South/North/Central Americans can be one of the 3 races (Asian, Black-African, Caucasian) or a combination of the 3 races.

One can be "Hispanic or Latino" and be racially Black-African:
Mostly are descendants of Black-African slaves that were transported there during the slave trade. Pele (Brazilian soccer player) is racially Black-African.

One can be "Hispanic or Latino" and be racially Caucasian:
Descendants of Southern European conquistadors from the past 5 centuries (mostly from Spain & Portugal). Oscar De la Hoya (Mexican-American boxer) and Ricky Martin (Puerto Rican singer).

One can be "Hispanic or Latino" and be racially Asian:
The native indians of North America (Eskimos, native American indians) and of South American jungles.....are of Asian descent. They arrived in the Americas from Asia either through the Bering Straights 12,000 years ago from Mongolia or through sailing over through the Pacific Ocean from South Asia/Polynesian islands.

One can be "Hispanic or Latino" and be bi-racial (Caucasian and Asian):
Jennifer Lopez.

One can be South American and be tri-racial (Caucasian and Asian and Black-African):
baseball player, Alex "A Rod" Rodriguez.

...
 
Indeed, the point Advice makes is true, what we are calling race distinctions are really American subcultural distinctions. We all have our own subcultural identities based on the socioeconomic conditions in which we live and grew up.

Incidentally, being a URM is not the only socioeconomic marker that might help you get into medical school. Schools like the University of Missouri and Southern Illinois University look very favorably on applicants from rural areas. These state universities, funded through state tax dollars, see their mission to serve their states as a whole, including rural and intercity areas.
 
Why can't we be simply AMERICANS?
 
We are all Americans. However, we all need to realize that there are certain groups of Americans that simply have extra barriers due to discrimination regardless of their socioeconomic postion.We can all look forward to a day when discrimination does not affect URM's educational access and experiences, however, it is far from reaching that level. While the majority of White male applicants may have never participated in the systematic discrimination of URM's, the fact remains that they did not have the added burden of discrimination in their educational experiences.
 
See that is where I disagree. It sounds as if you are reading that from a book as if that is the way things are outside of reality.

I am very close to some minority friends and I have to say that I do not see it. What discrimination is taking place? Where? I have never seen it or heard of it. My black friends go to school the same as I do and go to class and do their studies, etc the same as I do. Where are these racial KKK, white supremicist schools that everyone keeps talking about as holding back black people??? We keep saying that "it so tough to grow up as a black person" and "black people are held back"....Why?Where?When? We always say the same things because we hear it in books and TV, but have we ever really seen this type of thing going on. I am not saying that there is not a black man in America somewhere right now being dicriminated against, what I am saying is that this is a far and few between occurance. Brown v. Board of Education was over forty years ago...can we move on now and start treating minorities as equals.
 
Here's a suggestion. I went to a large undergrad university. We usually used scan-tron exams, so if there were any White-Supremist Professors, they would have to go to a lot of trouble if they wanted to cheat and give higher scores to white kids.

The profs didn't even know our names! Perhaps this is a good thing for equality? Make as many undergrad exams multiple choice scan-trons so that if there were a secret KKK Professor, that they wouldn't be able to give lower scores to minority students?

Schools could put in even more regulations to keep profs from cheating such as double-blind secret ID numbers so if White Supremist Professors wanted to cheat for the white kids, they couldn't.

•••quote:••••My black friends go to school the same as I do and go to class and do their studies, etc the same as I do. Where are these racial KKK, white supremicist schools that everyone keeps talking about as holding back black people???•••••
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Dr. Dad:
•Where are these racial KKK, white supremicist schools that everyone keeps talking about as holding back black people??? We keep saying that "it so tough to grow up as a black person" and "black people are held back"....Why?Where?When? We always say the same things because we hear it in books and TV, but have we ever really seen this type of thing going on. I am not saying that there is not a black man in America somewhere right now being dicriminated against, what I am saying is that this is a far and few between occurance.•••••Dr. Dad,
Where in God's Green Earth are you from?????? That's fine and dandy that you have never witnessed systematic discrimination where you are from (although I think you are living in never-never land) but go to any major metropolitan city...New York, LA, Chicago, Philly, Boston, Atlanta, etc. and I gurantee you will be taken aback by what you see. I'm sorry I haven't had the time to read each and every post before yours; however, for some strange reason, it seems like you have never ventured outside of your corn field into an urban area. It is a documented FACT that minorities do not receive as well an education, health care on and on as white america. I don't know who was talking about white supremacist schools holding black people back, but the simple fact is that minorities do not get an adequate education because the school boards spend more money on metal detectors and security guards than books and ec programs...sound like the school you wnet to, i think not, especially considering the things that are coming out of your mouth. Go try learning in that type of environment and see how well YOU do...personally, your whole attitude is sad dude :( .
 
Hello Everybody,
I've tried so hard to keep my mouth shut, but I just can't do it anymore. I've listened attentively to everyone arguments for and against AA. The one thing that I don't understand is, for those of you who believe that AA should be dismantled, what does that solve? Here's some food for thought. I assume that the majority of the participants (and onlookers)in this thread are aspiring to be future doctors, right? Well let's put some of those critical thinking skills to work. If you have a patient who comes into your office in December with a fever, nausea, chills, and headaches what would be your diagnosis? From first glance, since December falls within the highly dreaded flu season it's not too unreasonable to suspect that your patient may have the flu. Although, without further investigation no one can be completely sure. The before mention symptoms are associated with a host of illnesses ranging from the common flu to much more serious illnesses such as encephalitis. My point is, its easy to rapidly assess and cure the symptoms of an illness (problem), but if you really want to cure the disease itself, you need to find the agent(s) responsible for it. Simply stating that AA action needs to be dismantled solves nothing. We need to get to the root of the problem. For example, why on average hispanics, (american) indians, and african americans score lower on the MCAT than asians and causians? We need to address, why inner-city students of Chicago (and across the nation) don't have the same computer rooms, college prep programs, tennis courts and swimming pools as their suburban counterparts? Why is it that in the first few years of college, so many minority pre-med students are "weeded out" or discouraged from choosing science related majors. Why aren't all students regardless of race or socioeconomic status able to have access to or provided the means to afford commercial MCAT programs? Those are just a few issues that are rarely talked about and even more rarely dealt with. In my opinion until we as a society are willing to address and solve these problems, then I don't think that anyone has the right to dismantle anything. To dismantle AA is equivalent to taking the stitches out of a bullet wound and putting a band-aid in its place. Like I've heard many times before "Either your part of the solution or part of the problem". WHICH ONE ARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!
 
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