COVID-19 and impact on school

[genny]

repeatedly having to prove you're up to snuff on top of regular school exams adds another level of complexity and rigor.

I don't know what conversation you were hoping to start with this comment, but all I get from it is that you think human med students are better prepared (more competent) than vet students. I think you should read past Minnerbelle's first paragraph, because it's a great perspective on what it takes to be a good veterinarian, and how it's possible for some bad ones to slip through because vet med school doesn't require the same hoops that human med school does. And she talks a little bit about why it's different. I think her points are interesting, and deserve more than just tl;dr.

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[Trilt]

We just switched to a non-letter grade system for clinics and I feel like it just makes more sense from a grader perspective and from a student perspective. They're going to be doing Honors/Satisfactory/No credit. So I think that helps for people who are looking to specialize and such, still gives them a way to distinguish themselves.

This is what we did and I think it is a nice way of "grading" without grades.

Although I still swear my Hs made no freaking sense with the rotations I felt I did well/enjoyed... I had one rotation I literally threw together a WW game to distract myself from the boring hell hole and I got an Honours. Hmmph.

 

[Trilt]

I don't know what conversation you were hoping to start with this comment, but all I get from it is that you think human med students are better prepared (more competent) than vet students. I think you should read past Minnerbelle's first paragraph, because it's a great perspective on what it takes to be a good veterinarian, and how it's possible for some bad ones to slip through because vet med school doesn't require the same hoops that human med school does. And she talks a little bit about why it's different. I think her points are interesting, and deserve more than just tl;dr.

I agree btw. You said a potentially inflammatory statement and then just bitched and acted offended when someone gave a detailed response on the differences. You're better than that Mel.

 

[Lupin21]

It is a good insight into our days and the struggles. Two very different worlds that comparing the two should always be about damn that‘s awesome or damn that sucks when tales are exchanged.

Graduation is coming for 2020! Make sure to PM me or post here if you want another person present in some way to celebrate your achievement!!!!!! <3

 

[deleted676737]

I don't know what conversation you were hoping to start with this comment, but all I get from it is that you think human med students are better prepared (more competent) than vet students. I think you should read past Minnerbelle's first paragraph, because it's a great perspective on what it takes to be a good veterinarian, and how it's possible for some bad ones to slip through because vet med school doesn't require the same hoops that human med school does. And she talks a little bit about why it's different. I think her points are interesting, and deserve more than just tl;dr.

I agree. Minnerbelle's initial long post was both extremely insightful and fair to both sides of the coin. With vet school, you tend to get much more breadth versus depth because of a) the multiple species thing, b) the structure of the curriculum, and c) the fact that you have to be at least prepared enough to figure things out and wing it on your own because of the assumption that most will go straight into GP work and thus their formal education will stop after vet school (though, obviously, there are still basic CE requirements).

I also wanted to point out, as well, that it's not as if vet students are railroaded through the entire process with their hands held. It is still a very difficult curriculum and casualties do still happen (case in point being myself, ha); there is a level of academic gatekeeping that occurs in vet school, even if it's not necessarily in the form of shelf exams and the like.

 

[Melchizedek]

I agree. Minnerbelle's initial long post was both extremely insightful and fair to both sides of the coin. With vet school, you tend to get much more breadth versus depth because of a) the multiple species thing, b) the structure of the curriculum, and c) the fact that you have to be at least prepared enough to figure things out and wing it on your own because of the assumption that most will go straight into GP work and thus their formal education will stop after vet school (though, obviously, there are still basic CE requirements).

I also wanted to point out, as well, that it's not as if vet students are railroaded through the entire process with their hands held. It is still a very difficult curriculum and casualties do still happen (case in point being myself, ha); there is a level of academic gatekeeping that occurs in vet school, even if it's not necessarily in the form of shelf exams and the like.

I appreciate you re-stating her points in a palatable tone, and I'm searching for a more appropriate thread to continue this conversation in as to not keep dragging this thread in a different direction.

ETA: If someone finds a better thread before me, tag me please!

 

[that redhead]

I agree that human medical students are required to jump through a lot more standardized hoops and that sucks for them. However, Minnerbelle’s post is spot-on and absolutely worth a read to gain some perspective.

 

[missdarjeeling]

I had a chuckle at seeing the word "complexity," thinking back to my large animal rotation where between my classmates and I, we were taking care of horses, goats (+ kids), sheep (+ lambs), an alpaca, a llama, cows (+ a calf), and a pig all at the same time.

I always respect our human healthcare counterparts, and the depth of knowledge required to even start to practice as an MD is greater than what we have. We do graduate less prepared as a whole, and unless we go into a specialty, we start practicing with considerably less training. But in my experience with friends who work in healthcare, regardless of how much respect and deference we show to our human friends, we only get the same respect and appreciation back about half the time, so it gets a little old.

 

[Melchizedek]

Continuing the conversation here come share your thoughts!

 

[daisypush]

Are any other schools resuming in-person clinics soon?
Midwestern has a start date of May 18th for the 3rd years (soon to be 4th years)

The stay-at-home orders in Arizona were extended to May 15th so...this could change again.

 

[MixedAnimals77]

Are any other schools resuming in-person clinics soon?
Midwestern has a start date of May 18th for the 3rd years (soon to be 4th years)

The stay-at-home orders in Arizona were extended to May 15th so...this could change again.

WSU hoping to get 4th years started June 1. Stay home orders end May 31 though. I take it they've been talking to the governor though because they seemed pretty confident they could get them back in person in some sort of capacity.

 

[battie]

Are any other schools resuming in-person clinics soon?
Midwestern has a start date of May 18th for the 3rd years (soon to be 4th years)

The stay-at-home orders in Arizona were extended to May 15th so...this could change again.

Right now, the soonest Illinois will be in clinics for us new 4th years will be August 3rd. Things may be adjusted as needed, but I highly doubt we will return before then.

 

[Coopah]

Are any other schools resuming in-person clinics soon?
Midwestern has a start date of May 18th for the 3rd years (soon to be 4th years)

The stay-at-home orders in Arizona were extended to May 15th so...this could change again.

Davis is hoping for a May 25th start and the stay at home order was extended through the end of May... I have no idea what's happening.

 

[LyraGardenia]

Are any other schools resuming in-person clinics soon?
Midwestern has a start date of May 18th for the 3rd years (soon to be 4th years)

The stay-at-home orders in Arizona were extended to May 15th so...this could change again.

As far as I know K-State is planning to have some students in the hospital starting May 26th. Our stay at home order ends tomorrow, which I think is actually reasonable since Kansas hasn't been affected near as badly as some areas, but we'll see how things go.

 

[WildZoo]

Are any other schools resuming in-person clinics soon?
Midwestern has a start date of May 18th for the 3rd years (soon to be 4th years)

The stay-at-home orders in Arizona were extended to May 15th so...this could change again.

Students will be gradually returning to the clinic starting June 1st here (though through this whole time they've allowed limited numbers to continue to be in the clinic, just not required). Looks like for most rotations they'll have half the students come in the first week and half the second week for the larger rotations (i.e. the ones where there are more than 3 students). Smaller rotations or those where it's feasible to spread people out will have all their students. Some rotations will still be doing mostly online things, I think this only really applies to diagnostic skills (which is basically clin path and parasit).

Everybody is supposed to have been here for 2 weeks self-quarantining prior to going into the clinic, everyone will be wearing masks and distancing as much as possible in the hospital, and they're supposed to check their temperature every morning.

 

[battie]

I wish all these dates were feasible for us

 

[WildZoo]

I wish all these dates were feasible for us

If anything it probably means your state leadership is smarter than ours...this particular area of the state hasn't been hit hard at all but definitely the chance for things to go south with restrictions being lifted and people thinking that means it's ok to be lax with distancing and everything.

 

[Caiter92]

WSU hoping to get 4th years started June 1. Stay home orders end May 31 though. I take it they've been talking to the governor though because they seemed pretty confident they could get them back in person in some sort of capacity.

I feel like they’re definitely going to have to do some sort of online clinics. As of right now restrictions start lifting in mid-May but that could always get pushed back.. I wish they had just decided to go that route instead of making everyone take four weeks of vacation to start the year.

 

[ajs513]

Are any other schools resuming in-person clinics soon?
Midwestern has a start date of May 18th for the 3rd years (soon to be 4th years)

The stay-at-home orders in Arizona were extended to May 15th so...this could change again.

UPenn is aiming to begin expanding hospital services and bringing back a select group of students for clinics starting around May 18th, possibly into early June. That’s all the info we got about that.

 

[vetmedhead]

Weirdly, from what I've heard the local dispensaries around here are far and away doing the most aggressive job about enforcing social distancing, requiring people to wear masks to enter, not touching things, etc

 

[MixedAnimals77]

I feel like they’re definitely going to have to do some sort of online clinics. As of right now restrictions start lifting in mid-May but that could always get pushed back.. I wish they had just decided to go that route instead of making everyone take four weeks of vacation to start the year.

I've gotten mixed reviews from several 4th years I've talked to. They're still allowing preceptors etc on case by case basis so I think it depends what boat you're in which I totally get. I feel for them so much.
They're talking fall will pry still get to do sx for 3rd years but lectures online assuming there's still a cap on people in places. They were also saying WADDL is hoping to help start testing humans so hoping that will help ease some restrictions.

 

[mmmdreamerz]

Our current start date for clinics in person is July 6th...we have orientation this week and 8 weeks of online rotations starting next week

 

[mmmdreamerz]

I feel like they’re definitely going to have to do some sort of online clinics. As of right now restrictions start lifting in mid-May but that could always get pushed back.. I wish they had just decided to go that route instead of making everyone take four weeks of vacation to start the year.

Im actually pretty pleased with how my school has decided to do it (even if I’d way rather be in the clinic right now). We are all going to be rotating through the same four rotations that are more conductive to being taught online. Being made to use my vacation at the beginning would have sucked.

 

[PippyPony]

Thankfully they are keeping our vacation time untouched for now.

Return to clinics here won't be until at least June; they aren't providing actual dates because it depends more on milestones being hit in terms of case numbers, etc. Cases were still on the rise in this state as of last week, so I expect it will be a while yet.

I was initially gunning to go back, but after seeing how this has affected the hospitals through Zoom calls...nope nope. I would like them to keep us out until there is basically no chance we could pose a threat to the clinicians and staff (and in turn, our patients) by being there. For example, I would feel terrible if I got sick and forced a given service/whole parts of the hospital to shut down. It's just not worth it to rush, nor would it be fair to the doctors and techs who are already strained.

Plus, there are some services who have barely any patients at all right now and the remaining ones (ER) are slammed, so the case distribution is real weird.

 

[PippyPony]

Weirdly, from what I've heard the local dispensaries around here are far and away doing the most aggressive job about enforcing social distancing, requiring people to wear masks to enter, not touching things, etc

Maybe trying to avoid getting shut down? They have to be the most socially perfect industry in a lot of ways just to remain operational, this is no exception.

Edit to add: and some of their patients are heavily immuno-suppressed, like those undergoing chemo etc. Makes sense to me.

 

[Caiter92]

Im actually pretty pleased with how my school has decided to do it (even if I’d way rather be in the clinic right now). We are all going to be rotating through the same four rotations that are more conductive to being taught online. Being made to use my vacation at the beginning would have sucked.

Everyone has four more weeks of vacation, so they’re not using all of it, but they had people do online clinics who still had to to finish core electives when the stay home order started so they’ve done it before so I don’t know why they went this route. Tbh I feel like our hospital director was the one who didn’t want people doing online clinics unless they had to lol

 

[vetmedhead]

Maybe trying to avoid getting shut down? They have to be the most socially perfect industry in a lot of ways just to remain operational, this is no exception.

Edit to add: and some of their patients are heavily immuno-suppressed, like those in chemo etc. Makes sense to me.

Yeah, that's my sense as well. They're all generally very well run and good at things like carding people because they don't want to give anyone an easy excuse to raid/shut them down

 

[vetmedhead]

I wish they weren't touching our vacation we have a lot of it compared to other schools so I shouldn't complain about having two weeks moved up, but a lot of mine are kind of piecemeal by necessity and this will likely front load like three quarters of my vacation into the fall unless some serious finagling of my schedule happens

 

[mmmdreamerz]

Everyone has four more weeks of vacation, so they’re not using all of it, but they had people do online clinics who still had to to finish core electives when the stay home order started so they’ve done it before so I don’t know why they went this route. Tbh I feel like our hospital director was the one who didn’t want people doing online clinics unless they had to lol

Y’all get 8 weeks of vacation during 4th year? Or is that just special for this year?

We get two weeks plus one week for either Christmas or New Years...

 

[CoffeeQuestionMark]

I feel like they’re definitely going to have to do some sort of online clinics. As of right now restrictions start lifting in mid-May but that could always get pushed back.. I wish they had just decided to go that route instead of making everyone take four weeks of vacation to start the year.

I had said the same thing. My roommate was originally taking 4 weeks in June, and wasn't able to have that changed so now she has 8 weeks straight of vacation and only one week left in December.

 

[Caiter92]

I had said the same thing. My roommate was originally taking 4 weeks in June, and wasn't able to have that changed so now she has 8 weeks straight of vacation and only one week left in December.

Ugh that sucks so much she really move the June vacation? Or does she have things planned during that time that she can’t move? That sucks either way

 

[CoffeeQuestionMark]

Ugh that sucks so much she really move the June vacation? Or does she have things planned during that time that she can’t move? That sucks either way

She was supposed to have a family reunion in AZ but it's cancelled. I don't think they're letting her move the vacation. I'm sure if she could, she would, because originally she had planned to take vacation in November to study for the NAVLE and now has to do it in the middle of rotations
She went back to Seattle to do relief work and is getting paid very well so I guess that's the up side

 

[Caiter92]

Y’all get 8 weeks of vacation during 4th year? Or is that just special for this year?

We get two weeks plus one week for either Christmas or New Years...

We have 9 weeks lol up to four vacation blocks and then a week at Christmas or New Years. We only have one block we can use totally free where ever we want as an externship, so the other four blocks give us more options if we want more externships.

But I had multiple periods of time where between being at the hospital for 6+ hours every weekend day for patient care or working ER shifts on weekends where I did not have a single day off for 4-6 weeks. So that 8 weeks felt well deserved lol

 

[Caiter92]

She was supposed to have a family reunion in AZ but it's cancelled. I don't think they're letting her move the vacation. I'm sure if she could, she would, because originally she had planned to take vacation in November to study for the NAVLE and now has to do it in the middle of rotations
She went back to Seattle to do relief work and is getting paid very well so I guess that's the up side

I’d have been double check. Unless they’ve just made a blanket rule they can change rotations right now, but there are always openings on random rotations so I feel like she could switch something else there. Maybe they meant she couldn’t move it to November when they moved the other four weeks to May?

 

[mmmdreamerz]

We have 9 weeks lol up to four vacation blocks and then a week at Christmas or New Years. We only have one block we can use totally free where ever we want as an externship, so the other four blocks give us more options if we want more externships.

But I had multiple periods of time where between being at the hospital for 6+ hours every weekend day for patient care or working ER shifts on weekends where I did not have a single day off for 4-6 weeks. So that 8 weeks felt well deserved lol

Mind blown. That’s awesome!

 

[battie]

instead of making everyone take four weeks of vacation to start the year

We are currently on week 6 of vacation to start 4th year. Granted, we are only losing 1 vacation block for this. They were originally going to take two, but they removed our 2nd ER rotation. So our 3 remaining vacation blocks are untouched. The third block they're using (right now) was our anesthesia/internal med split block, which was waived and we'll all be passed for it.

It honestly hasnt sucked for me as much as others. A lot of my type A friends really struggled with having no direction or purpose the last month and a half. Especially since things kept changing. I feel like a lot of my class also started feeding on each other's anxiety, which made everything worse.

We start online clinics next week because the old 4th years graduate at the end of this week. I think we *had* to be on vacation because there were already 155 of them on virtual clinics, and the clinicians/profs had a lot to deal with without adding another 133 of us on top of it.

Weirdly, from what I've heard the local dispensaries around here are far and away doing the most aggressive job about enforcing social distancing, requiring people to wear masks to enter, not touching things, etc

The local dispensaries down here sound the same too! Agreed they have to keep things above snuff for the sake of being allowed to even exist.

We are all going to be rotating through the same four rotations that are more conductive to being taught online. Being made to use my vacation at the beginning would have sucked.

Currently on week 6 of vacation to start 4th year! I honestly dont think it was as bad as it could have been, and we are only losing 1/4 vacation blocks, and losing no elective blocks (of which we have 8).

Y’all get 8 weeks of vacation during 4th year? Or is that just special for this year?

We get two weeks plus one week for either Christmas or New Years...

We get 8 weeks (4 blocks) of vacation we can request for any time. Some times are more competitive than others. We do not have any holidays guaranteed. I will be on ER for thanksgiving and soft tissue surgery for christmas (for now).

We then have 16 weeks (8 blocks) of electives. 3 are free for all and 5 are focused.

 

[PippyPony]

Brb I'll just be over here crying in the corner with my 4 weeks of vacation limit for all 14.5 months of clinics lol

(In the old schedule we got like 18 weeks of combined elective/vacation time...and originally I missed the memo about how only 4 of those weeks total could be taken as vacation. I went from "psssh how stressful can clinics be? We get months of free time!" to "oh god, it's like I will never have a day off again". ...Might be one of the reasons why I'm not in an enormous rush to get back to 6am-8pm 7 days a week with no time off )

 

[Caiter92]

Sorry not sorry

Though when we had our town hall meeting with the hospital director to be like hey can we change things to implement the SAVMA duty guidelines, she seemed to think our vacation made up for no days off and 16+ hour days on multiple rotations basically guaranteed. We were like... how about no lol

 

[Coopah]

We only get a max of four weeks if vacation as well. Although you can eek out a fifth week if you take nutrition because that's a one week rotation so they pair it with vacation.

Unfortunately my first vacation rotation (which I didn't choose) is scheduled for May 25th. Which is supposed to be our first week back in clinics. I've begged for a schedule change and all I've gotten in response is a "we're focusing on forth years right now" so I'm a little frustrated. I get that forth years take priority but that means you have zero other bandwidth for the rest of us? By the time you get around to me it'll be too late.

Edit: we do get four days on Christmas or New years. But are required to be here for the other one because if your rotation isn't open during the holidays you'll be on ER or whatever.

 

[finnickthedog]

Suddenly I feel like we have a ton of vacation here...

Granted we have more time on clinics than a lot of schools since we start in January but in a normal year we get 3 vacation blocks so that's 9 weeks and then we all get the holiday break off which I think is 2 weeks so that's 11 weeks off in normal times.

And a lot of us got an extra 3 week block now with covid so its up to 14 weeks of vacation? And that's not even accounting for the 6 weeks this past semester where we really weren't doing much but did take some online modules for credit so wasn't technically vacation.

I got two unwanted vacations (one of which I'm on currently) for this summer semester which kind of sucks tbh because I didn't actually want to take the extra vacation block.

 

[itsrocky]

i got an email about our teaching hospital returning to regular function starting the 11th. My first thought was... I’m never setting foot in that building again, why are you telling me this? My second thought was... wayyyyy too soon.

 

[mmmdreamerz]

I officially crying over my measly 3 weeks vacation.

 

[battie]

can we change things to implement the SAVMA duty guidelines,

We in theory have implemented new guidelines to fall more in line with the SAVMA duty guidelines. Have I seen these new guidelines? Of course not!

 

[Coopah]

These internet outages are making virtual clinics really difficult. Second one in a week.

 

[battie]

On the topic of relatives not taking the virus seriously, my parents just keep getting worse. They're i Texas, so I'm waiting for the disease spike in their state to hit and close everything down again. They ate in a restaurant right next to people with servers not wearing masks.

 

[vetmedhead]

Omg finally a good news email, the school is looking at actually getting us in clinics at the end of June as opposed to mid July. CO's been doing a decent job of working on COVID response and since they're transitioning the state to "Safer at Home" they're hoping it'll be doable so long as students follow self-isolation guidelines etc prior to the clinics start date

 

[ajs513]

Some of my friends have been having internet outages and the most recent one lasted a long time. With exams every other day, they needed a backup plan. The school originally tried sending hotspots to them but they’re on backorder. So instead, they sent them a list of parking lots with WiFi Hotspot access...

 

[grebes4lyfe]

Some of my friends have been having internet outages and the most recent one lasted a long time. With exams every other day, they needed a backup plan. The school originally tried sending hotspots to them but they’re on backorder. So instead, they sent them a list of parking lots with WiFi Hotspot access...

#thrivingatpenn

 

[battie]

Today, the governor’s order to reopen all businesses with social distancing “recommendations” went into effect.

Today, our state also saw its greatest one-day increase in COVID-19 cases.

Yeah, so why do politicians here think that we totally have this under control enough for it to be safe to open everything back up, again?

I'm honestly waiting to see the number of cases in each of these states that are opening up in a week.

 

[ajs513]

You ever notice that all of these people who are pushing for reopening by claiming “rights,” when confronted with the fact that their rights end where someone else’s begin, always default to “well agree to disagree?” They never actually care about the constitution and the government infringing on their actual rights (made evident by that fact that none of them ever stand up for anyone else actually losing their rights illegally). They just care about getting what they want simply because they want it.