Covid19 - clinical / epidemiological thread

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VA Hopeful Dr said:
Because they can?

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Even if the vaccine works, the following doesn't bode well for herd immunity

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Game over. Sweden wins.
While we continue to riot and figure out how to print more money to keep people at home.
 

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Sweden had more time to react as deaths were peaking in March in the rest of Europe but their policies still assured they ended up in the top 10 worldwide in Deaths per 1M population

1595565745083.png
 
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MediMike said:
Sweden wins one of the top death rates in the world? Bet there's a pretty ****ty prize to go along with that.
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Meh, honestly (and maybe I'll get a lot of hate for this) the US needed a lot more death. The virus wasnt deadly enough to be scary and we have a lot of dumb people in the US who only understand things in terms of life or death. Look at our response. We ****ing failed, we failed hard.
 
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MediMike said:
Sweden wins one of the top death rates in the world? Bet there's a pretty ****ty prize to go along with that.
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You're ignoring the heavy morbidity and mortality of the added roughly 10 trillion of debt, just for starters. Add in the lost quality of life, lost education of the entire youth, etc. Ignored costs will be very very heavy. As the above poster states, you must think beyond just x (mostly very old) people died.
 
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I realize I’m just a student, but hoped I could add the perspective of someone who recently completed a global health course on the pandemic, which included several hours of lecture by epidemiologists and physicians in Sweden. Most public health officials in Sweden view their initial approach as a mistake. There are other contributing factors to their high mortality early on - they had high returning travel numbers from the Italian alps early in the pandemic, and they also have a relatively high number of nursing home-like facilities relative to other Scandinavian nations. That being said, they attribute their current reduction in cases and deaths to extremely high compliance with social distancing and mask-wearing, despite the lack of legal repercussions for failing to adhere to guidance. Many of their current guidelines are very similar to the more stringent ones in the US - the difference being greater respect for their social and medical care systems And the guidance that issues thereof. They are nowhere near approaching herd immunity and few people there think that they will reach herd immunity any time soon.
 
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24GaugeEJ said:
I realize I’m just a student, but hoped I could add the perspective of someone who recently completed a global health course on the pandemic, which included several hours of lecture by epidemiologists and physicians in Sweden. Most public health officials in Sweden view their initial approach as a mistake. There are other contributing factors to their high mortality early on - they had high returning travel numbers from the Italian alps early in the pandemic, and they also have a relatively high number of nursing home-like facilities relative to other Scandinavian nations. That being said, they attribute their current reduction in cases and deaths to extremely high compliance with social distancing and mask-wearing, despite the lack of legal repercussions for failing to adhere to guidance. Many of their current guidelines are very similar to the more stringent ones in the US - the difference being greater respect for their social and medical care systems And the guidance that issues thereof. They are nowhere near approaching herd immunity and few people there think that they will reach herd immunity any time soon.
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I don't particularly care how they did it or what method we call it; they won. The disease looks controlled, the economy isn't decimated, and people aren't constantly destroying cities night after night.
 
It sounded as though you were implying a specific cause for their downtrending numbers; my mistake.
 
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We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes said:
I don't particularly care how they did it or what method we call it; they won. The disease looks controlled, the economy isn't decimated, and people aren't constantly destroying cities night after night.
Click to expand...
24GaugeEJ said:
It sounded as though you were implying a specific cause for their downtrending numbers; my mistake.
Click to expand...
No mistake. I appreciate the input and other views. There are so many factors and so much we still don't know. I have been Team Sweden from the beginning simply because the numerous significant costs to shutdown get overlooked to a large degree in a medical discussion.
 
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We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes said:
I don't particularly care how they did it or what method we call it; they won. The disease looks controlled, the economy isn't decimated, and people aren't constantly destroying cities night after night.
Click to expand...

By every metric, Sweden is worse off than their Scandinavian neighbors who shut down.

www.bbc.com

Did Sweden's coronavirus strategy succeed or fail?

Despite global criticism, Sweden has seen a drop in serious Covid cases without ever having a lockdown.
www.bbc.com
 
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We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes said:
I don't particularly care how they did it or what method we call it; they won. The disease looks controlled, the economy isn't decimated, and people aren't constantly destroying cities night after night.
Click to expand...

Their economy isn’t doing any better than comparable and surrounding countries. This is a worldwide pandemic.

I really don’t think any country has "won" until there is a combination of viable vaccine that is available worldwide and herd immunity.

"Despite this, various forecasts predict the Swedish economy will still shrink by about 5% this year. That's less than other countries hit hard by Covid-19 such as Italy, Spain and the UK, but still similar to the rest of Scandinavia. Sweden's unemployment rate of 9% remains the highest in the Nordics, up from 7.1% in March."

"Restaurants, shops and gyms have been allowed to remain open, but they have still struggled to attract customers, she says.
 
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We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes said:
You're ignoring the heavy morbidity and mortality of the added roughly 10 trillion of debt, just for starters. Add in the lost quality of life, lost education of the entire youth, etc. Ignored costs will be very very heavy. As the above poster states, you must think beyond just x (mostly very old) people died.
Click to expand...
evidence for that please?
hasnt the death rate gone down durung every recent recession?

also are you ignoring the burden of chronic lung illness on those who recover? do you think someone who was on oxygen for 2 weeks or even recovered post intubation with covid is going to return to work same as before? thats going to cost a lot of money
 
We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes said:
I don't particularly care how they did it or what method we call it; they won. The disease looks controlled, the economy isn't decimated, and people aren't constantly destroying cities night after night.
Click to expand...
where did you get your facts from? the first article i read on this said
their economy tanked just like the rest of europe or even worse. especially considering theyre an export lead economy
 
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MirrorTodd said:
Meh, honestly (and maybe I'll get a lot of hate for this) the US needed a lot more death. The virus wasnt deadly enough to be scary and we have a lot of dumb people in the US who only understand things in terms of life or death. Look at our response. We ****ing failed, we failed hard.
Click to expand...
What about the innocent people who were smart and placed in harms way by their dummy family members?
Did they deserve to die too?
 
chocomorsel said:
What about the innocent people who were smart and placed in harms way by their dummy family members?
Did they deserve to die too?
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There wasn't any "deserve" implicit in my statement. This virus needed to go Thanos style and start eliminating people across the board, rich/poor, old/young/middle age, gay/straight, catholic/atheist. This virus needed to be more ebola like for people to actually it seriously. That was my point.
 
nimbus said:
By every metric, Sweden is worse off than their Scandinavian neighbors who shut down.

www.bbc.com

Did Sweden's coronavirus strategy succeed or fail?

Despite global criticism, Sweden has seen a drop in serious Covid cases without ever having a lockdown.
www.bbc.com
Click to expand...
Yet you still don't advocate for universal 20mph speed limits and national shut down during flu season. Those innocent lives are expendable. Yet you have no question when media scream about small gatherings that aren't part of their agenda but have nothing to say when large gatherings of their agenda apparently provide covid immunity. Do you not even realize how manipulated the public is?
 
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So how many here that think a relatively open economy is bad actually stay at home and don't work because of covid, don't receive a paycheck, watch their business they built over years completely evaporate, and have major life issues approaching like when will I be evicted? That's what I thought. Sounds a lot like the media collecting their checks telling others it's morally wrong to pursue their livelihoods right now.

Wear your masks, wash your hands, keep your distance, and get on with it. If it's ok for high risk individuals to protest and riot without precautions it's ok for low risk youth to attend school with precautions (and with freedom comes the choice to homeschool anyway).
 
We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes said:
Yet you still don't advocate for universal 20mph speed limits and national shut down during flu season. Those innocent lives are expendable. Yet you have no question when media scream about small gatherings that aren't part of their agenda but have nothing to say when large gatherings of their agenda apparently provide covid immunity. Do you not even realize how manipulated the public is?
Click to expand...

That’s a non sequitor. Sweden’s economy is worse off than Denmark and Finland and they have 10x the deaths. The best way to save the economy is by controlling the virus.
 
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We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes said:
So how many here that think a relatively open economy is bad actually stay at home and don't work because of covid, don't receive a paycheck, watch their business they built over years completely evaporate, and have major life issues approaching like when will I be evicted? That's what I thought. Sounds a lot like the media collecting their checks telling others it's morally wrong to pursue their livelihoods right now.

Wear your masks, wash your hands, keep your distance, and get on with it. If it's ok for high risk individuals to protest and riot without precautions it's ok for low risk youth to attend school with precautions (and with freedom comes the choice to homeschool anyway).
Click to expand...

Dude or Dudette,
Please turn off social media and tv for a while. I’m glad that you are venting on here and I want to encourage that. I get your message and I empathize with you. If this Covid 19 shutdown has caused great pain to you and your family, please let me know how I can help. Pm me. Stay safe and take care of your physical and mental health.
 
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I think in 20 years we'll obviously be able to say who did "the best" in regards to the response to the pandemic. 20/20 hindsight and all. I think right now it's pretty clear that the president of this country though has specifically failed at being an effective leader during a crisis, which ultimately has cost people their well-being. The blatant lies and going against advice of top public health and medical professionals is just maddening.
nimbus said:
That’s terrible.
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Questionable if that is actually happening.
I think mistakes do obviously happen, but not sure if they don't even collect people's contact information until they test them....

www.sun-sentinel.com

Florida might look into rumors about positive COVID results with no actual tests — if anybody comes forward with proof

Gov. Ron DeSantis said he has become aware of people in Florida claiming they went to get tested for coronavirus, left for various reasons before getting swabbed, and then received positive results…
www.sun-sentinel.com www.sun-sentinel.com
 
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nimbus said:
threadreaderapp.com

Thread by @ASlavitt: COVID Update July 26: We can virtually eliminate the virus any time we decide to. 1/ We can be back to a reasonably normal existence: school…

Thread by @ASlavitt: COVID Update July 26: We can virtually eliminate the virus any time we decide to. 1/ We can be back to a reasonably normtence: schools, travel, job growth, safer nursing homes & other settings. And we could do it in a matter of w…
threadreaderapp.com threadreaderapp.com
Click to expand...
Can we honestly stop harvesting food and transporting goods for 6 weeks?
 
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AMEHigh said:
I think in 20 years we'll obviously be able to say who did "the best" in regards to the response to the pandemic.
Click to expand...

Taiwan; it will still be Taiwan in 20 years. Noped out of China's nonsense from the start.
 
Why is CNN so obsessed with covid at the SD motorcycle rally? (rhetorical question obviously). 70 days of constant protesting/rioting... zero mention of covid.

And America snickers at the propaganda in the North Korean media....
 
We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes said:
Why is CNN so obsessed with covid at the SD motorcycle rally? (rhetorical question obviously). 70 days of constant protesting/rioting... zero mention of covid.

And America snickers at the propaganda in the North Korean media....
Click to expand...
Because as anyone with a remote sense of objectivity can see that it's not about news, but about conveying a worldview. CNN is leftist progressive political propaganda. I am confounded that anyone could take this Orwellian stuff seriously. It's frightening.
 
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LineAndBerry said:
Because as anyone with a remote sense of objectivity can see that it's not about news, but about conveying a worldview. CNN is leftist progressive political propaganda. I am confounded that anyone could take this Orwellian stuff seriously. It's frightening.
Click to expand...

You subscribe to FOX news?
 
We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes said:
Why is CNN so obsessed with covid at the SD motorcycle rally? (rhetorical question obviously). 70 days of constant protesting/rioting... zero mention of covid.

And America snickers at the propaganda in the North Korean media....
Click to expand...

CNN is trash.
They get obsessed with 1 topic and then talk about it for months.
I stopped watching them years ago.
 
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Some points

There's more to immunity than antibodies. Simplified pathway seems to be virus --> T cells --> B cells --> plasma cells --> antibodies

There's research going on to see how many people being infected with sars cov 2 are asymptomatic and how to improve immunity based on that. T cells become important

Seems that prior infection to other coronaviruses may help prepare immunity to better handle sars cov 2 infection and avoid bad covid 19 symptoms

Masks can help a lot by reducing viral load.

T cells can play a major role in promoting long term immunity to covid 19. A lot of research needs to be done on T cells rather than simply focusing on antibodies.


link.springer.com

Masks Do More Than Protect Others During COVID-19: Reducing the Inoculum of SARS-CoV-2 to Protect the Wearer - Journal of General Internal Medicine

Although the benefit of population-level public facial masking to protect others during the COVID-19 pandemic has received a great deal of attention, we discuss for one of the first times the hypothesis that universal masking reduces the “inoculum” or dose of the virus for the mask-wearer...
link.springer.com link.springer.com
 
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I don't follow here often so this may have already been said, but the pandemic looks awfully weak and quite possibly burning out much faster than we think. There are far too many unknown variables even such as how many have been infected and how long does immunity last etc to make any statements with certainty, but as our Czar would say, It's going to one day disappear, and maybe earlier than we expect.

Places hit very hard early such as NY and Italy have shown next to no sign of life regarding Covid while other places that held off that initial surge paid hard later such as Florida and Arizona (and rapidly falling off now as well). Did NY do something wonderful to stop Covid dead in its tracks while other areas took off? I highly doubt that. Protests, house parties, travel, gatherings all continued strong as ever, and while the lagging parts of the US raged NY went to sleep.

It certainly also can't be attributed to summer since the areas that surged later are as hot as hell. I know my state has fallen on the politics of it's a hoax, yet cases after a later surge are falling fast. I can't even get healthcare workers to stop crowding me and literally breathing down my neck. I'm going to keep doing my best to protect myself, but I'm more in as ever on opening bike rallies, schools, churches, sports, whatever reckless partying people want to do and hopefully finish flushing this out because if we've learned anything, we've learned people of all political sides will carelessly gather no matter what you try to tell them.

Unfortunately this disease is so ridiculously politicized that next to nothing of what you hear can be outright believed, and again too much is unknown with Covid, so I don't say this with any high degree of certainty, but the mathematics just don't impress me going forward.
 
Didnt over 1200 people die in the states today from covid? is that weak and burning out?
 
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We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes said:
I don't follow here often so this may have already been said, but the pandemic looks awfully weak and quite possibly burning out much faster than we think. There are far too many unknown variables even such as how many have been infected and how long does immunity last etc to make any statements with certainty, but as our Czar would say, It's going to one day disappear, and maybe earlier than we expect.

Places hit very hard early such as NY and Italy have shown next to no sign of life regarding Covid while other places that held off that initial surge paid hard later such as Florida and Arizona (and rapidly falling off now as well). Did NY do something wonderful to stop Covid dead in its tracks while other areas took off? I highly doubt that. Protests, house parties, travel, gatherings all continued strong as ever, and while the lagging parts of the US raged NY went to sleep.

It certainly also can't be attributed to summer since the areas that surged later are as hot as hell. I know my state has fallen on the politics of it's a hoax, yet cases after a later surge are falling fast. I can't even get healthcare workers to stop crowding me and literally breathing down my neck. I'm going to keep doing my best to protect myself, but I'm more in as ever on opening bike rallies, schools, churches, sports, whatever reckless partying people want to do and hopefully finish flushing this out because if we've learned anything, we've learned people of all political sides will carelessly gather no matter what you try to tell them.

Unfortunately this disease is so ridiculously politicized that next to nothing of what you hear can be outright believed, and again too much is unknown with Covid, so I don't say this with any high degree of certainty, but the mathematics just don't impress me going forward.
Click to expand...

I was also a skeptic early on when china and italy were burning but then I saw it first hand and reading nonsense like this really upsets me. Covid was a terrible pandemic that required drastic measures all over the world. Since when do you hear of entire economies being shut down? I was there when New York shut down, the streets were eerily empty while the hospitals were so overcrowded that people were dying in the halls.
 
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GassYous said:
I was also a skeptic early on when china and italy were burning but then I saw it first hand and reading nonsense like this really upsets me. Covid was a terrible pandemic that required drastic measures all over the world. Since when do you hear of entire economies being shut down? I was there when New York shut down, the streets were eerily empty while the hospitals were so overcrowded that people were dying in the halls.
Click to expand...
isnt it amazing how different people can take a piece of information and interpret it in totally different ways. more dead than ww1, 1200 per day = weak virus. idk... i guess you could probably prove today is sunday if you really wanted. makes me wonder what is the point of ever reading anything ever again.

just pull a homer simpson on it and chase some squirrels around the garden
 
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Newtwo said:
Didnt over 1200 people die in the states today from covid? is that weak and burning out?
Click to expand...
It is in America. Plenty of people here are selfish as hell. If it’s not directly happening to them it doesn’t matter to a large number of people.
The land of individualism.
 
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