Cutthroat Gunners

[GoodSamaritan]

Based on what you've heard (as this is the pre-med forum I don't expect you to actually go there), what schools have the most cutthroat classmates and gunners?

I've people talk about UT Southwestern... but I'm curious to hear more

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[student1799]

Based on what you've heard (as this is the pre-med forum I don't expect you to actually go there), what schools have the most cutthroat classmates and gunners?

I've people talk about UT Southwestern... but I'm curious to hear more

Dunno about UT Southwestern. But in general, just use common sense: A school that grades the preclinical years P/F is going to have a much smaller gunner population than a school that gives grades (Honors, High Pass, Pass, etc.). Choose accordingly.

 

[amidoinitrite]

Based on what you've heard (as this is the pre-med forum I don't expect you to actually go there), what schools have the most cutthroat classmates and gunners?

I've people talk about UT Southwestern... but I'm curious to hear more

I have a few friends at UTSW and interviewed there last year and they're not gunner at all. I think it got that reputation from some years back but it seems to be getting alot better now.


edit: i guess it just depends on the particular class that year--some may be more gunnerish than others

 

[searun]

It really depends on the state where the med school is located. You are referring to Texas, right? OK, makes sense.

 

[mikedc813]

Not only does it depend on the school, but it varies from class to class even at the same med school. My class didn't have a lot of gunners, but the class ahead of mine had a lot. It's really hit or miss....

 

[RySerr21]

UCSD has that kind of reputation, especially within CA.

 

[pancakesyrup]

Johns Hopkins

 

[mdmarty]

UCSD has that kind of reputation, especially within CA.

Absolutely false. UCSD is one of the most laid back schools. Its undergrad has a reputation for being rough, but then all UCs are like that. When I interviewed there, the MS1s had an exam the next day, yet they did not hesitate to stop and talk with applicants, do the free clinic tour, and take us out to dinner.

 

[GoodSamaritan]

It really depends on the state where the med school is located. You are referring to Texas, right? OK, makes sense.

So are you saying that Texas schools generally get a lot of "them"?

 

[GoodSamaritan]

Dunno about UT Southwestern. But in general, just use common sense: A school that grades the preclinical years P/F is going to have a much smaller gunner population than a school that gives grades (Honors, High Pass, Pass, etc.). Choose accordingly.

Can that information be found on the websites or is it an get interviewed and ask sort of thing?

 

[ButImLETired]

Can that information be found on the websites or is it an get interviewed and ask sort of thing?

Grading systems are usually on the website somewhere, maybe among FAQ's or in the curriculum section. Especially when the school is P/F they'll be pretty obvious about it, since it's usually a big selling point for students.

 

[ButImLETired]

By the way, here's a useful website:

http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section1/grading1.cfm

note: not all med schools have a really predictable grading scheme, so the website isn't all that useful in those cases. Examples from schools I've visited: the website shows Vandy as being Honors/High Pass/Pass/Fail, but really they're Pass/Fail the first year and they switch to the H/HP/P/F the second year I think. For Duke, it depends on the class, some classes are straight P/F, some aren't. UCSD has a quarter of P/F and the rest also have Honors.

Even within the H/P/F or H/HP/P/F systems, schools can differ. Some will give honors, for example, to the top 10% or 5% of the class curve (in which case, by definition, you are competing against each other). Some will make it a basic points-based system (this is how it works at Duke, I think anything above a 90% is Honors) in which case technically the entire class can get Honors so there shouldn't be any competition. However, those "internal rankings" and funky curves usually aren't publicized so you might want to ask the students (faculty/administration will usually be less than forthright about it) about how it really works. So far of the schools I've been to, Mt. Sinai was the most straight-up P/F system, with no internal ranking.

So it depends, which is why it's best to look at the individual websites. I should also note that for Vandy and UCSD, even though the grading changes after a while, I was told by many students that the feeling that everyone is cooperating instead of competing doesn't go away, which is nice.

 

[Destro96]

It's sheerly anecdotal, but I've seen the names Georgetown and Hopkins mentioned a hell of a lot on this forum when it comes to lack of cooperative spirit among students.

 

[JLC]

I actually asked one of my friends who is a second year at JHU, and he said it was definitely not true. He said JHU had a very cohesive class.

That said, I'm pretty sure any top ranked university with students who were gunners before medical school would continue to be gunners in med school.

 

[taurus70]

There will be many more gunners at the beginning of your first year and almost none by the end of your MS IV year. Also, everyone is smart at medical school. You may think you are a gunner now, but realize you are average later.

Most gunners are smart enough to realize that lack of teamwork and cooperation is not going to succeed on the floors. Poor LOR * MSPE + Neutral Clinic Grades = Scramble . So don't worry about the gunners. With hard work and helping your teammates you will "shine" and succeed. With "screwing your classmates" you will be abandoned on your "island" on the floors and will look BAD! I hope med school is everything you expect. It was more than I dreamed it could be ,both good and bad.

 

[bodonid]

you really never know. reputation can be misleading.

my school is A/B/C/D/F for the first two years, a format that would lend itself to competition, but nobody ever talks about grades. There are people that sit in the front of the class every day, but they aren't the ones doing really well on exams, for the most part. And I haven't witnessed much brown-nosing, not that it would help anyway.

 

[TheElement]

I think it's more a consequence of the grading system. At UT SW, they give you numerical grades and they rank their students. Naturally that would make it more competitive.

 

[Lukkie]

how the hell do you evaluate this

 

[searun]

So are you saying that Texas schools generally get a lot of "them"?

Absolutely. There are more cutthroat gunners per square mile in Texas than any other state. It is verifiable. California is second, and then several states in the Northeast round out the top ten. But, yeah, Texas is number one. Which is what Texas likes to be, number one.

 

[lord_jeebus]

Schools and grading systems don't create gunners. A gunner will be a gunner anywhere. If there is pass/fail grading, they will find other ways to look good at the expense of others.

 

[8744]

Based on what you've heard (as this is the pre-med forum I don't expect you to actually go there), what schools have the most cutthroat classmates and gunners?

I've people talk about UT Southwestern... but I'm curious to hear more

The gunner thing is an urban myth. While their will be hyper-competitive people in your class, there ability to effect your grades or evaluations is absolutely zero. In other words, your success in medical school and residency is 100 percent dependent on your own intelligence and self-discipline and none of it, despite what they will tell you at orientation, is a team sport.

Now, it may have happened in the past that "gunners" stole old tests from the library to keep them from other students but in response to this, most people nowadays in our internet age would say, "What's a library?"

 

[badasshairday]

Gunners are just annoying. Ignore them and move on.

 

[calnation]

It's about time the MSAR gets a gunner ranking. Oh wait, I wonder if it could possibly correspond to the rankings they already have.

 

[RySerr21]

Absolutely false. UCSD is one of the most laid back schools. Its undergrad has a reputation for being rough, but then all UCs are like that. When I interviewed there, the MS1s had an exam the next day, yet they did not hesitate to stop and talk with applicants, do the free clinic tour, and take us out to dinner.

Ive spent years working at UCSD interacting with the students, the faculty, the professors, etc. . Every single one has expressed their opinions about the competitive atmosphere. I'll take my years of talking and interacting to the students over your 1 interview day which is used partly to impress and entice students to attend.

 

[tncekm]

Ive spent years working at UCSD interacting with the students, the faculty, the professors, etc. . Every single one has expressed their opinions about the competitive atmosphere. I'll take my years of talking and interacting to the students over your 1 interview day which is used partly to impress and entice students to attend.

My Ochem professor worked at UCSD a while back. She said it was insane there... pre-meds sabotaging each others experiments, etc. She didn't work for the SOM, but what I've heard about the UG makes me very skeptical. Not that it matters, UCSD isn't showing me any love anyway.

 

[tncekm]

The gunner thing is an urban myth. While their will be hyper-competitive people in your class, there ability to effect your grades or evaluations is absolutely zero. In other words, your success in medical school and residency is 100 percent dependent on your own intelligence and self-discipline and none of it, despite what they will tell you at orientation, is a team sport.

Now, it may have happened in the past that "gunners" stole old tests from the library to keep them from other students but in response to this, most people nowadays in our internet age would say, "What's a library?"

All true, but, assuming there are more schools with more gunner-type personalities, I personally would avoid them despite their prestige because I want to have an enjoyable medical education. Its going to be rough as it is, the last thing I need is a bunch of a-holes intentionally (or unintentionally) making it rougher for everyone else.

 

[Caliapplicant]

you all need to check your facts.

I am currently a student at UCSD SOM. About four years ago, there was definitely a competitive atmosphere among students --- reflected in what kinds of students the school was accepting at the time, more emphasis on numbers apparently.

with new staff taking over the admissions process since then, it is now different. it is VERY chill at UCSD SOM. if you could only see our forum postings on our school pages you would see how active and social our school is, even on weekends preceeding exams.

if you want to avoid a gunner school, go to your second look weekends and just talk to your potential future classmates and count the gunners. gunners are easy to spot (they love to talk about their accomplishments)

 

[lord_jeebus]

I graduated from UCSD a few months ago.

UCSD expects a lot from its students, and we seemed to work harder than students at other schools. This does not mean they are competing with each other or bringing each other down. The prevalence of gunners in my class was about 1.5%.

We were all very competitive - when we we competed with students from other schools for residency spots!

 

[mdmarty]

Ive spent years working at UCSD interacting with the students, the faculty, the professors, etc. . Every single one has expressed their opinions about the competitive atmosphere. I'll take my years of talking and interacting to the students over your 1 interview day which is used partly to impress and entice students to attend.

I was an undergrad at UCSD. You are welcome to read up on the advice I have given others on SDN about being an undergrad here and decide just how familiar I am with the school.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=6560128#post6560128

 

[RySerr21]

I was an undergrad at UCSD. You are welcome to read up on the advice I have given others on SDN about being an undergrad here and decide just how familiar I am with the school.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=6560128#post6560128

I didnt make any comments regarding the undergrad since I am not applying there. I only expressed the attitudes I have encountered regarding the medical school.

Now maybe things are changing (as another poster implied), and i hope that they are, but even the students I worked with this summer expressed the same things I had been hearing for quite some time. If I am lucky enough to get an interview, then I will visit the campus and decide for myself whether or not the atmosphere was friendly/social/etc. etc., and I very much hope that it is b/c UCSD is a fantastic school and I would love to have the opportunity to go there.

 

[iluvpuppies]

I actually asked one of my friends who is a second year at JHU, and he said it was definitely not true. He said JHU had a very cohesive class.

That said, I'm pretty sure any top ranked university with students who were gunners before medical school would continue to be gunners in med school.

As a first yr student, I def agree with this. I was actually worried before I started because of the rumors, but our class is really great. I mean--ppl here def work hard and take school seriously, but my roommates and friends here are really helpful (its almost ridiculous how much ppl go out of their way). and we do have a lot of fun, too.

 

[ANF1986]

Has anyone in the history of SDN actually admitted to being a gunner? I mean, they have enough balls to hide tests, steal books from the library, etc....but not enough to out themselves?

 

[Caliapplicant]

I dont know what to say about your experiences with UCSD SOM being uber competitive. its just simply not true. i came from a very competitive undergrad and i can truly tell you it is laid back here at UCSD. ive never seen so much collaboration and cohesiveness in a student body ever, even including high school.

i would really like you to make an educated decision about which school to attend, and if you think ucsd is unfriendly/intracompetitive etc...then im afraid you are making an ill-informed decision.

peace, im going to the beach!

I didnt make any comments regarding the undergrad since I am not applying there. I only expressed the attitudes I have encountered regarding the medical school.

Now maybe things are changing (as another poster implied), and i hope that they are, but even the students I worked with this summer expressed the same things I had been hearing for quite some time. If I am lucky enough to get an interview, then I will visit the campus and decide for myself whether or not the atmosphere was friendly/social/etc. etc., and I very much hope that it is b/c UCSD is a fantastic school and I would love to have the opportunity to go there.

 

[RySerr21]

I dont know what to say about your experiences with UCSD SOM being uber competitive. its just simply not true. i came from a very competitive undergrad and i can truly tell you it is laid back here at UCSD. ive never seen so much collaboration and cohesiveness in a student body ever, even including high school.

i would really like you to make an educated decision about which school to attend, and if you think ucsd is unfriendly/intracompetitive etc...then im afraid you are making an ill-informed decision.

peace, im going to the beach!

I am doing the things necessary to make an educated decision....I JUST said that...did you actually read my post that you quoted?? Apparently not. Here.

"If I am lucky enough to get an interview, then I will visit the campus and decide for myself whether or not the atmosphere was friendly/social/etc. etc., and I very much hope that it is b/c UCSD is a fantastic school and I would love to have the opportunity to go there. "

I'm not holding a grudge against UCSD nor am I disqualifiying them from my list of potential schools.......the fact that I applied and sent in a secondary speaks for itself. My decisions concerning medical school thus far have been anything but ill-informed. But thanks for your concern.

 

[175961]

DEFINE GUNNER!!

I catch you on your way to the premed committee for your interview, you happen to be applying to a few of the same schools that I am. You did slightly better than me on the MCAT. I stuff you in the trunk of my car and drive a few hours into the woods. I beat you senseless and strip you naked and drive away. I then start a rumor that you have given up all hopes of going to medical school and began gambling and got in deep with the loan sharks. I break into your apartment and trash the place giving the police the impression that you made a bookie mad and he sicked his goons on you. In my pre-med commitee interview I tell them one of my goals is to not rest until I have found the long lost ex-premed student that has disappeared and that I will dedicate all my efforts to his recovery knowing full well that he will never be found and I will soon be accepted to med school in his place. mwahahahaha, I am a gunner and I will get you.

 

[bcat85]

I know a ton of intense medical students but exactly 0 actual gunners. "Gunner" has devolved into a euphamism for students who are d***s to their classmates and don't want to share answers or work with you. I don't know anyone who would willingly sabotage their classmates, as the traditional definition of "gunner" would suggest.

 

[FrickenhugeMD]

There is a difference you need to make clear when talking about "gunners". There are students who will use deceit or sabotage to make themselves ahead of the field. I also know of 0 people at my school (so far) that fit this category. We also have a H/P/F system with Z-scores relating to where you fall on a standardized bell style curve, so I can see how something like this could lead to it. I personally just find that most people keep their cards close to their chests about tests, as do I.

Some people try to group students that study for 14 hrs a day everyday as gunners. Those are NOT gunners. They may try harder for a goal, but good for them. They dont "gun" anyone down in their pursuit for the best. It's just them versus the tests thrown at them, albeit those tests are graded on a curve. I personally dont have the stamina or focus to keep up with any of these types, but I am still managing to do fairly well for myself

 

[Jolie South]

"cutthroat gunners" sounds like a bad song from the '70s.

i imagine it being sung to the tune of "cat scratch fever."