I'd your opinion on this one. I want to be a surgeon. I know I won't be happy if I don't do surgery. I'm in a Carribean med school at St. George's Univ. I'm worry about coming from a foreign med school since it's difficult to get competitive specialties from here. So I'm thinking of reapplying to osteopathic medical schools. Do D.O. students have an easier time getting surgical residencies than foreign meds? Or it doesn't really matter what school you come from as long as you kick butt on the USMLE?
D.O. or Carribean?
- Thread starter docJohn
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I might be mistaken but i thought that St. George was considered an American medical school. Don't you guys have rotations set up in the U.S.? I know the other ones in the Caribbean are.
2
2bdoc
Dear docJohn,
I went through the same decision process when I was applying to medical schools. I had been accepted right away to several foreign schools. After researching the schools, and talking with foreign-medical residents, I came to the conclusion that going to a foreign medical school would be an enigma on my credentials. There is a lack of respect for American foreign medical grads in the medical world.
Osteopathy is accepted in the U.S. over foreign medicine. You can become a surgeon being an osteopath. You have to work hard like in any other medical field. Surgery is very competitive. Being a foreign medical graduate would have a severe disadvantage over being an osteopath. First of all is the lack of respect, as mentioned earlier. When picking out a good surgeon, one of the questions patients often ask is where you went to medical school. This is not like any other field of medicine. Patients want the best care - especially when you are cutting them open! This is not to say that foreign medical grads are not good at what they do. It's just a grey cloud that you will have to contend with for the rest of your medical career.
Furthermore, foreign grads are not considered equal to American grads. This is apparent in the residency selection process.
As far as osteopathy goes, osteopathy offers many surgical residencies. You have both allopathic fields (most residencies) and osteopathic fields available to you.
I do not mean any disrespect to you but think about why you are limiting yourself at this point to surgery. Going to medical school is not all dissection. There are a lot of skills to master. If you limit yourself to a specialty at the start of your medical career, you may be faced with some big challenges throughout. I suggest that you consider why it is you want to be a physician before applying to medical school.
Good luck!
I went through the same decision process when I was applying to medical schools. I had been accepted right away to several foreign schools. After researching the schools, and talking with foreign-medical residents, I came to the conclusion that going to a foreign medical school would be an enigma on my credentials. There is a lack of respect for American foreign medical grads in the medical world.
Osteopathy is accepted in the U.S. over foreign medicine. You can become a surgeon being an osteopath. You have to work hard like in any other medical field. Surgery is very competitive. Being a foreign medical graduate would have a severe disadvantage over being an osteopath. First of all is the lack of respect, as mentioned earlier. When picking out a good surgeon, one of the questions patients often ask is where you went to medical school. This is not like any other field of medicine. Patients want the best care - especially when you are cutting them open! This is not to say that foreign medical grads are not good at what they do. It's just a grey cloud that you will have to contend with for the rest of your medical career.
Furthermore, foreign grads are not considered equal to American grads. This is apparent in the residency selection process.
As far as osteopathy goes, osteopathy offers many surgical residencies. You have both allopathic fields (most residencies) and osteopathic fields available to you.
I do not mean any disrespect to you but think about why you are limiting yourself at this point to surgery. Going to medical school is not all dissection. There are a lot of skills to master. If you limit yourself to a specialty at the start of your medical career, you may be faced with some big challenges throughout. I suggest that you consider why it is you want to be a physician before applying to medical school.
Good luck!
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In the future, it will become increasingly difficult for IMGs to obtain
ACGME residencies. Personally, I would not risk it. Secondly, I too
must question your statement regarding becoming a surgeon. It is
IMPOSSIBLE to say with any degree of certainty what field one will end
up in. Not only do you not yet know your abilities, but your preferences
may very well change. I'm just a 2nd yr and I've already changed my mind
several times. Also, why are you only considering DO schools? If you
really think surgery is the field for you, then you might be better off at
an allopathic school.
ACGME residencies. Personally, I would not risk it. Secondly, I too
must question your statement regarding becoming a surgeon. It is
IMPOSSIBLE to say with any degree of certainty what field one will end
up in. Not only do you not yet know your abilities, but your preferences
may very well change. I'm just a 2nd yr and I've already changed my mind
several times. Also, why are you only considering DO schools? If you
really think surgery is the field for you, then you might be better off at
an allopathic school.
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American MDs and DOs are pretty much the same. I rotate under several DO attendings at a large MD hospital, one of which is a surgeon and no one knows or cares about the difference. As a matter of fact, DOs have their own residencies too, giving them more spots. Although coming from a big medical school will obviously be of advantage, osteopathic school is just as good and will offer you opportunities. What matters in the end is whether you are good. Foreign MDs however, do not have the same chance.
Justwannebedoc, NO Caribbean Medical schools are considered American medical schools even though their rotations may be at US hospitals. This is an agreement worked out with underserved US hospitals to help staff them (they are usually in bad parts of the city, for instance Coney Island Hospital, in NY). The Carib schools are not LCME or AOA accredited medical schools. Basically US IMGs practice by using a "loophole" since they receive their MDs from a nation such as Grenada (like if a Grenadian did). But, as a US citizen you don't have to worry about getting a visa. Then you must work with the ECFMG in Philadelphia to obtain licensure. As of now, you must pass both USMLE I,II, III, the CSA clinical skills evaluation test, and TOEFL English language test (yes even US citizens have to take this). IMGs (US & Non-US) usually attain less desirable residencies in less than desirable locations to fill a need. Of course, there are exceptions to this depending on USMLE scores, connections, field of medicine desired, etc. DocJohn, I would advise to anyone to apply to US medical schools (MD & DO) at least twice before going to the Caribbean. But, if this is your last chance, and you honestly know you have what it takes to do it after much self-reflection, then go. In my opinion, it is easier to fix your problems (MCAT, etc.) than going to an island for two years. It sounds like you're already down there. If you can get into a US medical school, even if you lose a year, I would also do that to avoid any unnessecary problems down the road. Good Luck to you.
[This message has been edited by VM (edited 03-28-99).]
[This message has been edited by VM (edited 03-28-99).]
I agree that going to DO route is easier, and that it is hard to say now with any certainty, what your speciality will be until you do your rotations.
I would contact AACOMAS and make sure you have all the requirements
including behavioral sciences.
Good luck
Diane
[This message has been edited by Diane E (edited 03-29-99).]
I would contact AACOMAS and make sure you have all the requirements
including behavioral sciences.
Good luck
[This message has been edited by Diane E (edited 03-29-99).]
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Ross University will still be an overseas medical school. I'm surprised the AMA is going to let them do this, it will be weird having a foreign medical school have a branch campus in the United States. I don't think the AMA would let another accredited medical school be built, there are already over 100 allopathic schools as it is.
EDGAR
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Ross is not going to be an accredited US medical school. As a matter of fact there has been a lot of opposition to the opening of this "campus" of Ross U. in US soil because it can give students the erroneous impression that it is going to be an accredited US medical school. Ross U., from their end of things, is planning to have about 800 students there. The town where they are building is loving it all, but the AMA is fighting it.
A friend of mine wanted to go to Ross in Wyoming and they (Ross) told him that it looks like it will not be built afterall. We don't believe it will EVER be built. Ross is probably just trying to revive interest in its campus on that horrible island (to live on) Dominica. Of course, it would not be accredited. In fact, if the M.D. charter is from the nation of Dominica, which it is, it would probably or possibly be illegal for Ross to confer the M.D. degree without having the students spend some time on Dominica.
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As to date there is only one Caribbean med school that is accredited by the AMA - it's in Puerto Rico.
A school like Ross produces ~800 students/year = Scary!!?!
DocJohn -
Are you trying to choose between a DO school or a Caribbean MD school? Are you attending a Caribbean med school right now?
As far as I know Caribbean med schools don't care about MCATs - DO school here in the states do and if you don't have those 8s & 9s you are going to have a hard time getting in. You might have to retake the MCATs if you did bad the 1st time around before you think of applying DO.
As to your original question - Yes you will be better served with a DO degree from the US as far residencies are concerned.
later
--Nicolas--
WesternU'03
A school like Ross produces ~800 students/year = Scary!!?!
DocJohn -
Are you trying to choose between a DO school or a Caribbean MD school? Are you attending a Caribbean med school right now?
As far as I know Caribbean med schools don't care about MCATs - DO school here in the states do and if you don't have those 8s & 9s you are going to have a hard time getting in. You might have to retake the MCATs if you did bad the 1st time around before you think of applying DO.
As to your original question - Yes you will be better served with a DO degree from the US as far residencies are concerned.
later
--Nicolas--
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Only one school in Puerto Rico is accredited??? Puerto Rico is a US territory which is why one can do his/her internship and residency there and come back to the states with no problems at all. What happened to the other med schools? Did they lose their accreditation this year?
I've always heard about 4 med schools in PR, 3 accredited and 1 not: University of Puerto Rico, Ponce School of Medicine, Universidad Central del Caribe, and the unaccredited San Juan Bautista School of Medicine. Are you sure its only one NickCVM?
I've always heard about 4 med schools in PR, 3 accredited and 1 not: University of Puerto Rico, Ponce School of Medicine, Universidad Central del Caribe, and the unaccredited San Juan Bautista School of Medicine. Are you sure its only one NickCVM?
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Dear Jon,
I'm almost a D.O. grad and here's my scoop. (You're probably not going to like this first part, but believe me, Bud, I was just like you.)You are an idiot if you 'KNOW you won't be happy unless you do surgery'. I'm not saying you've got to consider Psyche, but if you are least bit intelligent, you'll be surprised at what other aspects of medicine interest you during your 4 years of med school. I've done a lot of surgery and believe me, unless you do the full 13 years and go Cardiothoracic, there is nothing too cerebral about being a surgeon. It's good hands and that's about it. All that being said, if you're damned and determined to do surgery, you'll probably have a better shot at a residency if you go D.O.. But I think that the M.D. behind your name (regardless of where it is from) will give you a lot more credibility in the long run. For instance, you don't put Jon Smith, FMG/MD; you put Jon Smith, MD, and in this way you gain instant universal credibility. In the rare case that a colleague asks where you graduated from, and you tell them you are an islander, in their mind you'll rank on an equal footing with D.O.s. On the otherhand, if you are a D.O., you are instantly and universally shown prejudice (albeit minor prejudice). Another consideration, however, is the fact that islanders are rather restricted in where they can do their 3rd and 4th years. In summary, read all these posts again, pray about it, make your choice, and be happy about it...we don't need any more disgruntled doctors out there.
Godspeed and good luck.
------------------
fly
I'm almost a D.O. grad and here's my scoop. (You're probably not going to like this first part, but believe me, Bud, I was just like you.)You are an idiot if you 'KNOW you won't be happy unless you do surgery'. I'm not saying you've got to consider Psyche, but if you are least bit intelligent, you'll be surprised at what other aspects of medicine interest you during your 4 years of med school. I've done a lot of surgery and believe me, unless you do the full 13 years and go Cardiothoracic, there is nothing too cerebral about being a surgeon. It's good hands and that's about it. All that being said, if you're damned and determined to do surgery, you'll probably have a better shot at a residency if you go D.O.. But I think that the M.D. behind your name (regardless of where it is from) will give you a lot more credibility in the long run. For instance, you don't put Jon Smith, FMG/MD; you put Jon Smith, MD, and in this way you gain instant universal credibility. In the rare case that a colleague asks where you graduated from, and you tell them you are an islander, in their mind you'll rank on an equal footing with D.O.s. On the otherhand, if you are a D.O., you are instantly and universally shown prejudice (albeit minor prejudice). Another consideration, however, is the fact that islanders are rather restricted in where they can do their 3rd and 4th years. In summary, read all these posts again, pray about it, make your choice, and be happy about it...we don't need any more disgruntled doctors out there.
Godspeed and good luck.
------------------
fly
Walla walls said that being a D.O. brings prejudice. This may be true, but one would have a much better chance of getting a surgery residency (as walla walla said), especially in an AOA residency, than a USIMG MD, (which is nearly impossible now (this info from the Carib schools themselves) in my opinion. Also, I am related to several physicians (M.D.s from Top 10 schools), and believe me, they respect D.O.s much more than US IMGs from the Caribbean or Mexico. They DO seem to think that the training in the D.O. hospitals is inferior to allopathic programs (but still good), even though they, of course, are only speculating since they have never trained there. I still believe one would be crazy to go to the Caribbean or Mexico to get an M.D. instead of obtaining a D.O. here in the U.S. The D.O. programs are better in the first two years AND the last two clinical years. Caribbean clinical students usually train in the WORSE hospitals in the U.S. (or elsewhere) where no U.S. MD or DO students want to train. This is fine if the Caribbean is the only avenue to become a doctor, especially with applications being so high and increasing competition. If you are good enough to persevere through all of the problems (residency USLME CSA stigma licensure, etc.), you are qualified to practice in the U.S. Many of the Caribbean programs, except for maybe Saint Georges, or even Ross U., are not up to standards. If you are a fool, go to the Caribbean just to have M.D. after your name. On the other hand, I can't stand people that are not proud of the D.O. after their name.
[This message has been edited by VM (edited 04-07-99).]
[This message has been edited by VM (edited 04-07-99).]
i think dr. walla's opinion is the most accurate and honest. he/she should be commended on being frank about the limitations and prejudices that exist against DO's. yes, yes....i know that they receive the "same" type of training plus the "hands-on" extras that MD's do not get to experience...but in the "real" world, presently, Do's do not have the recognition that MD's have and even foreign MD's are better respected by the medical community (in general...please do not give isolated incidences of the contrary...i am speaking in a general sense, in all of the US and in the international community)....
in the end, it all comes down to usmle scores, and letters of recommendation during the clinical years for your residency (of course coming from harvard with an average board score will probably weigh more than a foreign grad with higher scores..."duh")...but what dr. walla says is ultimately true...that after you do your residency (especially in the states), an MD degree whether foreign or domestic still carries more clout and garners greater respect...
ps. my personal views on DO's and MD's is that ultimately there SHOULD NOT be any qualitative difference in quality of care as long as the person has successfully trained in a recognized residency...but alas, there will always be Pride and Prejudice....
in the end, it all comes down to usmle scores, and letters of recommendation during the clinical years for your residency (of course coming from harvard with an average board score will probably weigh more than a foreign grad with higher scores..."duh")...but what dr. walla says is ultimately true...that after you do your residency (especially in the states), an MD degree whether foreign or domestic still carries more clout and garners greater respect...
ps. my personal views on DO's and MD's is that ultimately there SHOULD NOT be any qualitative difference in quality of care as long as the person has successfully trained in a recognized residency...but alas, there will always be Pride and Prejudice....
Gorby,
Believe me, most patients would turn around at the door if they knew the doctor was a Caribbean medical graduate, and wouldn't even give the doctor a chance (they wouldn't even discover if he was good or not). I'm not saying this is right, but this is the average idea from the average patient. How do I know this? I did not decide to pursue medicine until recently. This is the general idea out there. Most people think of those students as being incompetent. Some think of the schools down there as diploma mills. They do not understand the steps to licensure.
So what is the average idea about a D.O. degree? Well, most people don't seem to know what it is, but when they find out or they do know, they do not seem to think of it as a backup degree for MD wannabes. They look at it as a different type of medical degree. For instance there are DMDs and DDS and they are both dentists. Only some pre-meds and MDs think negatively about the DO degree.
As far as who is respected more, believe me, I am from a family of MDs. I also know many MDs and they respect the DO degree (especially for primary care, maybe not as much as US MD for some specialties) much more than the Caribbean MD.
Don't believe me, go out and ask the average patient or average MD, RN, etc.
Believe me, most patients would turn around at the door if they knew the doctor was a Caribbean medical graduate, and wouldn't even give the doctor a chance (they wouldn't even discover if he was good or not). I'm not saying this is right, but this is the average idea from the average patient. How do I know this? I did not decide to pursue medicine until recently. This is the general idea out there. Most people think of those students as being incompetent. Some think of the schools down there as diploma mills. They do not understand the steps to licensure.
So what is the average idea about a D.O. degree? Well, most people don't seem to know what it is, but when they find out or they do know, they do not seem to think of it as a backup degree for MD wannabes. They look at it as a different type of medical degree. For instance there are DMDs and DDS and they are both dentists. Only some pre-meds and MDs think negatively about the DO degree.
As far as who is respected more, believe me, I am from a family of MDs. I also know many MDs and they respect the DO degree (especially for primary care, maybe not as much as US MD for some specialties) much more than the Caribbean MD.
Don't believe me, go out and ask the average patient or average MD, RN, etc.
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Here is the deal:
1) Yes an MD is "more respected" than a DO, but by whom is the question you must ask? If you talk to your average whippersnapper premed, they will tell you DOs are inferior, etc. This is because they have the attitude that all med schools except Johns Hopkins are inferior and beneath them. If you talk to your average physician (and i talked to an awful lot of them about this) they do not care what frickin degree you have as long as you are good. Their are ofcourse exceptions, but not enough to be of any concern in my opinion (there will always be idiots). If you ask the public, most will not have any idea what a DO is but, when you explain it, they will accept it at face value, because to your average lay person a doc is a doc is a doc.
2) I have no opinion of the quality of Carribean education, but i will admit that i think that the public has a negative view of it. The trick is that no one will know you are a Carribbean grad, unless you tell them or they see it on your diploma. I am pretty sure that DMEs would rather take a US grad (MD or DO) over a carribbean grad. But their are exceptions, ofcourse.
I have seen enough graduates from my school go and do competitive residencies at well respected institutions not to worry about being a DO in an MD world at all.
1) Yes an MD is "more respected" than a DO, but by whom is the question you must ask? If you talk to your average whippersnapper premed, they will tell you DOs are inferior, etc. This is because they have the attitude that all med schools except Johns Hopkins are inferior and beneath them. If you talk to your average physician (and i talked to an awful lot of them about this) they do not care what frickin degree you have as long as you are good. Their are ofcourse exceptions, but not enough to be of any concern in my opinion (there will always be idiots). If you ask the public, most will not have any idea what a DO is but, when you explain it, they will accept it at face value, because to your average lay person a doc is a doc is a doc.
2) I have no opinion of the quality of Carribean education, but i will admit that i think that the public has a negative view of it. The trick is that no one will know you are a Carribbean grad, unless you tell them or they see it on your diploma. I am pretty sure that DMEs would rather take a US grad (MD or DO) over a carribbean grad. But their are exceptions, ofcourse.
I have seen enough graduates from my school go and do competitive residencies at well respected institutions not to worry about being a DO in an MD world at all.
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I think that it cuts both ways. On one hand, you have people being wary of the quality of care that a foreign trained MD offers. On the other, you have the uncertainty as to the capabilities of an american trained DO, simply because most people have never heard of a DO.
Think about it. Who would you trust, someone who has had a recognizable education, albeit a reputably shabby one, or someone who has had an education that is totally unfamiliar but is said to be comparable to that of an MD. That's the choice that most people who do not know about Osteopathic medicine have to face.
I, personally, would go the DO route over a carribean MD. If it were an Irish or English med school, I might think differently .
Think about it. Who would you trust, someone who has had a recognizable education, albeit a reputably shabby one, or someone who has had an education that is totally unfamiliar but is said to be comparable to that of an MD. That's the choice that most people who do not know about Osteopathic medicine have to face.
I, personally, would go the DO route over a carribean MD. If it were an Irish or English med school, I might think differently .
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When was the last time any of you inquired about where your doctor was educated? I do that now, but five years ago I didn't care. They worked in a hospital I trusted and they were physicians (I assumed).
Also, if you did ask and they made a point to tell you they did their residency at Cornell, or NYU, or SUNY-Brooklyn, or one of the other NY schools that are commmonly used by the Carribean schools, would you then further inquire about where they actually went to medical school?
Lastly, do you think Mr and Mrs Middle America knows enough to know a good school from a bad school? If you said you went to New York Institute of Technology or Michigan State or Ohio University do you honestly beleive that someone with no medical background would know the difference between that and New York Medical College, the University of Michigan, and Ohio State?
As pre-med's we have stereotypes of what we believe is good and bad. However, I don't think much of the general populace share our stereotypes. I had to fill the people in my office in on the difference between an MD, a DO, and (get this) a PA. The people in my office are all highly educated people (worldly, PhDs, high-level civil service persons etc.).
My sister-in-law just got her medical insurance forms for her new job. They give you a list of providers that are covered under their plan. She did what most people do, she picked the closest one to our house. My bosses wife did the same thing, so did my wife, so did the guy down the hall.
I think we need to face the facts. People who are concerned about where their physician went to school are generally people who have a very specific need that they are concerned about (surgury would fit in here). Even then, they are limited to a network of providers and often must be reffered within that network.
Ask your parents or your parents neighbors(if they aren't in the health care field) if they know where their physician went to school. Also, ask if that was a consideration when they selected them.
This stuff makes a big difference to us, but I don't think the difference to non-medical people is as significant.
Also, if you did ask and they made a point to tell you they did their residency at Cornell, or NYU, or SUNY-Brooklyn, or one of the other NY schools that are commmonly used by the Carribean schools, would you then further inquire about where they actually went to medical school?
Lastly, do you think Mr and Mrs Middle America knows enough to know a good school from a bad school? If you said you went to New York Institute of Technology or Michigan State or Ohio University do you honestly beleive that someone with no medical background would know the difference between that and New York Medical College, the University of Michigan, and Ohio State?
As pre-med's we have stereotypes of what we believe is good and bad. However, I don't think much of the general populace share our stereotypes. I had to fill the people in my office in on the difference between an MD, a DO, and (get this) a PA. The people in my office are all highly educated people (worldly, PhDs, high-level civil service persons etc.).
My sister-in-law just got her medical insurance forms for her new job. They give you a list of providers that are covered under their plan. She did what most people do, she picked the closest one to our house. My bosses wife did the same thing, so did my wife, so did the guy down the hall.
I think we need to face the facts. People who are concerned about where their physician went to school are generally people who have a very specific need that they are concerned about (surgury would fit in here). Even then, they are limited to a network of providers and often must be reffered within that network.
Ask your parents or your parents neighbors(if they aren't in the health care field) if they know where their physician went to school. Also, ask if that was a consideration when they selected them.
This stuff makes a big difference to us, but I don't think the difference to non-medical people is as significant.
This whole debate about Caribbean MD or DO is really dumb. There is only one Caribbean school even worth considering (but, not over most DO schools - the ARE U.S. medical schools, with no extra hurdles, unscrupulous people running them for the most part, no hurricanes, volcanos, hostile natives, CSA exams, ECFMG certification, TOEFL (easy), living in a 3rd world environment, power outages, crappy hospitals in US if in US at all, etc. I could go on and on) and that is St. George's University SOM. It is the only one that I would even think about stepping foot on. I know because I have friends that had to go the Carib route. They tell me that they would have went US MD or DO anyday if they could have, but they did not know about DO schools at the time, or did not get accepted to a US MD or DO program.
Ross flunks out a HUGE portion of their class. Some say it is because they KNOW they don't have enough clinical spots for the high # of students they accept. AUC is a suspect school that has lost the Stafford loan in the past, was hit by a hurrican, and volcano, and have reportedly had problems with the gov or St. Martins. And these are the big 3!!! Give me a break. What about the smaller programs like Spartan, Saba, and the scam-like places like Grace U.
Ireland, Australia, and maybe Israel (if you want to live there) would be OK, but you are still considered an IMG. There WILL be a closing of doors for IMGs in the years to come, especially non-US citizen IMGs. Be stupid (whoever is considering this), and go to the Carib over a DO medical school (if you could even get in). Maybe I'll see you in 4 years, maybe I won't. Your risk.
Ross flunks out a HUGE portion of their class. Some say it is because they KNOW they don't have enough clinical spots for the high # of students they accept. AUC is a suspect school that has lost the Stafford loan in the past, was hit by a hurrican, and volcano, and have reportedly had problems with the gov or St. Martins. And these are the big 3!!! Give me a break. What about the smaller programs like Spartan, Saba, and the scam-like places like Grace U.
Ireland, Australia, and maybe Israel (if you want to live there) would be OK, but you are still considered an IMG. There WILL be a closing of doors for IMGs in the years to come, especially non-US citizen IMGs. Be stupid (whoever is considering this), and go to the Carib over a DO medical school (if you could even get in). Maybe I'll see you in 4 years, maybe I won't. Your risk.
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Sheon makes some good points. It was not until recently that I realized the bias towards D.O.'s. That is, until I got interested in going to medical school myself.
Here in the "regular" world, we don't really care about DO -vs- MD. It seems like the premed community is the only group that makes such a big deal about it. At least to the point of arguing about it constantly. DO's definitely have a lower level of name/degree recognition, but once people find out that yes, DO's are "real" doctors, they are fine with it.
And I agree that in general, most of us (us being "Mr and Mrs Middle America", not us premeds) don't know or care about the schools and residencies our doctors attended. All we care about is whether or not our doc takes care of us competently when we need it and treats us with our due respect.
But, I think that a Carribean MD does have a negative image. Many of the people I know (again, not premeds) would avoid a doc if they found out that they went to a Carribean med school. They look at them like degree mills. Sort of the medical version of the law school "My Cousin Vinny" went to.
KB
Here in the "regular" world, we don't really care about DO -vs- MD. It seems like the premed community is the only group that makes such a big deal about it. At least to the point of arguing about it constantly. DO's definitely have a lower level of name/degree recognition, but once people find out that yes, DO's are "real" doctors, they are fine with it.
And I agree that in general, most of us (us being "Mr and Mrs Middle America", not us premeds) don't know or care about the schools and residencies our doctors attended. All we care about is whether or not our doc takes care of us competently when we need it and treats us with our due respect.
But, I think that a Carribean MD does have a negative image. Many of the people I know (again, not premeds) would avoid a doc if they found out that they went to a Carribean med school. They look at them like degree mills. Sort of the medical version of the law school "My Cousin Vinny" went to.
KB
docjohn, with respect to the first question,
It depends. As a DO you will be expected to complete an internship...and then apply for a residency. During this internship time you will be in contact with many staff physicians who will come to know your strengths. During your surgery rotation you will have an oppurtunity to show what you can do as a physician. Often DO's do there internship at an institution where they are planning to stay as a resident. Staff physicians may make an offer to a DO intern for a particular position because they often can get you to sign out of the match. This can be both an advantage to the intern and the department making the request. In my experience I have found that the general surgery spots are quite accesible as a DO.
This includes both MD and DO residency spots.
With respect to your follow up question:
From personal experience, FMG's do have a more difficult time getting the residency spots, particularly if the hospital is ranked as a moderately competitive one. I have known some FMG's who were completing there transitional year at a well respected research hospital and who were going for the same spots that some less qualified american graduates were going for and it was difficult to see them get turned away.
This seems to be consistant throughout the U.S.
So the meat of all this is "do you leave and start over or what?" This is a very difficult decision as so much time and money has been consumed. I hope this will put it in some perspective. If you stay you will get your MD and you have a weak oppurtunity to land a position in general surgery, even if you do well on the boards. If you return to the US and complete either an american degree as a DO or an MD you will almost certainly find a position, albeit,perhaps not at the most competitive hospital. You should take some time to think this general surgery issue over. Is it that important to you that you may be willing to start your medical school over?
It depends. As a DO you will be expected to complete an internship...and then apply for a residency. During this internship time you will be in contact with many staff physicians who will come to know your strengths. During your surgery rotation you will have an oppurtunity to show what you can do as a physician. Often DO's do there internship at an institution where they are planning to stay as a resident. Staff physicians may make an offer to a DO intern for a particular position because they often can get you to sign out of the match. This can be both an advantage to the intern and the department making the request. In my experience I have found that the general surgery spots are quite accesible as a DO.
This includes both MD and DO residency spots.
With respect to your follow up question:
From personal experience, FMG's do have a more difficult time getting the residency spots, particularly if the hospital is ranked as a moderately competitive one. I have known some FMG's who were completing there transitional year at a well respected research hospital and who were going for the same spots that some less qualified american graduates were going for and it was difficult to see them get turned away.
This seems to be consistant throughout the U.S.
So the meat of all this is "do you leave and start over or what?" This is a very difficult decision as so much time and money has been consumed. I hope this will put it in some perspective. If you stay you will get your MD and you have a weak oppurtunity to land a position in general surgery, even if you do well on the boards. If you return to the US and complete either an american degree as a DO or an MD you will almost certainly find a position, albeit,perhaps not at the most competitive hospital. You should take some time to think this general surgery issue over. Is it that important to you that you may be willing to start your medical school over?
docjohn, with respect to the first question,
It depends. As a DO you will be expected to complete an internship...and then apply for a residency. During this internship time you will be in contact with many staff physicians who will come to know your strengths. During your surgery rotation you will have an oppurtunity to show what you can do as a physician. Often DO's do there internship at an institution where they are planning to stay as a resident. Staff physicians may make an offer to a DO intern for a particular position because they often can get you to sign out of the match. This can be both an advantage to the intern and the department making the request. In my experience I have found that the general surgery spots are quite accesible as a DO.
This includes both MD and DO residency spots.
With respect to your follow up question:
From personal experience, FMG's do have a more difficult time getting the residency spots, particularly if the hospital is ranked as a moderately competitive one. I have known some FMG's who were completing there transitional year at a well respected research hospital and who were going for the same spots that some less qualified american graduates were going for and it was difficult to see them get turned away.
This seems to be consistant throughout the U.S.
So the meat of all this is "do you leave and start over or what?" This is a very difficult decision as so much time and money has been consumed. I hope this will put it in some perspective. If you stay you will get your MD and you have a weak oppurtunity to land a position in general surgery, even if you do well on the boards. If you return to the US and complete either an american degree as a DO or an MD you will almost certainly find a position, albeit,perhaps not at the most competitive hospital. You should take some time to think this general surgery issue over. Is it that important to you that you may be willing to start your medical school over?
It depends. As a DO you will be expected to complete an internship...and then apply for a residency. During this internship time you will be in contact with many staff physicians who will come to know your strengths. During your surgery rotation you will have an oppurtunity to show what you can do as a physician. Often DO's do there internship at an institution where they are planning to stay as a resident. Staff physicians may make an offer to a DO intern for a particular position because they often can get you to sign out of the match. This can be both an advantage to the intern and the department making the request. In my experience I have found that the general surgery spots are quite accesible as a DO.
This includes both MD and DO residency spots.
With respect to your follow up question:
From personal experience, FMG's do have a more difficult time getting the residency spots, particularly if the hospital is ranked as a moderately competitive one. I have known some FMG's who were completing there transitional year at a well respected research hospital and who were going for the same spots that some less qualified american graduates were going for and it was difficult to see them get turned away.
This seems to be consistant throughout the U.S.
So the meat of all this is "do you leave and start over or what?" This is a very difficult decision as so much time and money has been consumed. I hope this will put it in some perspective. If you stay you will get your MD and you have a weak oppurtunity to land a position in general surgery, even if you do well on the boards. If you return to the US and complete either an american degree as a DO or an MD you will almost certainly find a position, albeit,perhaps not at the most competitive hospital. You should take some time to think this general surgery issue over. Is it that important to you that you may be willing to start your medical school over?
Please be sure to carefully explore the osteopathic philosophy before you apply to a DO school- if you decide to. I just finished my first year at a DO school and was occasionally annoyed by a few kids who wished they were somwhere else. If you don't want to be a DO (after you have done enough research to make an informed choice) please do not apply to a DO school! There are many people who decide after exhaustive research that the DO version of a doctor is what they want to be. (like me!) There are few openings for many hopeful applicants. It isn't nice to apply for something you are not sure about and take the spot of someone else...talk to some DOs, read some books about the philosophy, make careful choices...good luck.
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While we are on the DO subject, I have something to add. I will be a first year student at OU-COM in the fall and honestly I had no intentions of becoming a DO when I first started undergrad at Ohio State. But when I researched the osteopathic principles and realized that the DO philosophy fit my personality and what I wanted to do with my life, I quickly changed my mind. I was, and kind of still am, disappointed that I won't have MD after my name. However, DO's have the same kind of residency opportunities as MD's do in most states and if you are a good doctor, it shouldn't matter what two letters you have after your name. The problem is that if you are a DO and want to do an allopathic residency, it would probably be to your advantage to take the USMLE in addition to the required COMPLEX exam (osteopathic boards). Call me crazy, but I plan to take both because I want to do my residency in family medicine at an allopathic hospital here in Columbus, OH and then go onto to do a fellowship in sports medicine. I want to live my dream of working in a high profile hospital, but I am so proud of the fact that if everything works out for me, I will be able to educate patients and MD's on the great philosophies of osteopathic medicine. I guess you just have to do a little research and find out for yourself whether or not you want to go to a DO school or a foreign school. In my opinion, it would be better to go to a US DO school and train at US hospitals than go to a second rate education center in a foreign land just to get an MD degree. But the other side of that is you will have the MD after your name and still be condsidered an MD by your colleagues. The choice is yours, so make it a good one. Go Bucks.
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Buckeyes,
If your career intentions stay the same, you'll be heads and shoulders above your MD peers when it comes to exploring family medicine and sports medicine opportunities. The chief of the sports med fellowship at Stanford is a Family Medicine-trained DO. Pay attention to the OMT you will learn. If you don't half-ass your way through it, it is really something extra you can offer patients in terms of musculoskeletal medicine.
As far as USMLE/COMLEX goes: Probably wise to sit for both just to cover your bases. I predict that in a couple of years you'll have no regrets about choosing the DO degree over the MD degree. Just wait.
[This message has been edited by drusso (edited July 10, 1999).]
If your career intentions stay the same, you'll be heads and shoulders above your MD peers when it comes to exploring family medicine and sports medicine opportunities. The chief of the sports med fellowship at Stanford is a Family Medicine-trained DO. Pay attention to the OMT you will learn. If you don't half-ass your way through it, it is really something extra you can offer patients in terms of musculoskeletal medicine.
As far as USMLE/COMLEX goes: Probably wise to sit for both just to cover your bases. I predict that in a couple of years you'll have no regrets about choosing the DO degree over the MD degree. Just wait.
[This message has been edited by drusso (edited July 10, 1999).]
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i have heard from many sources that if you want primary care, especially FP, then it is silly to take USMLE. If you want to take a shorter and perhaps better written test, then go for USMLE in addition with the intent of submitting USMLE scores to those allopathic programs you are interested in. If you just want to take one test and are sure about primary care, COMLEX on its own will not keep you out of any primary care residency (at least that i am aware of).
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I have a couple observations. Its seems that it is ok for DO's to bash carribean MD schools even though they have no first hand knowledge of these schools and when someone speaks about DO schools you guys flip out. You are being very hypocritical. Next admit that you have a bias for DO schools becaue youm are in DO schools. Next how can you say you would walk out the door if you knew the doctor had a carribean MD degree without knowing his/her qualifications being that that is the party line when it comes to being a DO. "As soon as they see how good of a doctor DO's are they will not care about the initials after the name." But it is OK to have that attitude against a caribbean MD. Very perplexing to me. I also think that people who go DO route should stop running around saying that "I never knew about DO until I researched the philosophy and see how much it fits my beliefs and now I want to be a DO", when a look at GPA and MCAT will reveal the real reason they are becoming a DO. Finally do you really think that physicians you go and ask about what they think about DO's are going to say to your face that there is bias against DO's or that they consider them equals if they know you are a DO student? Think about it. These are just some of my observations and let it be said I do think DO's are equals with MD's I just get tired of all the hypocrisy floating around here
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docJohn, have you considered trying to transfer from SGU to a US med school? SGU used to have a very good track record for putting their students into US allopathic schools. They don't place as many any more but it still happens on a more-than-rare basis.
Dog Boy,
When you point your finger at the hypocrisy you have three of your own pointing back at you. While I agree a large number of DO students are such because of admissions numbers, you cannot claim that the statements on adopting the DO philosophy to be bogus.
I suggest that if you want to start the GPA and MCAT score game, go post with the other mean-spirited students at the Princeton Review site. This site has the more intelligent and professional postings thus far and we do not need your attitude here.
[This message has been edited by NewDoc (edited July 12, 1999).]
When you point your finger at the hypocrisy you have three of your own pointing back at you. While I agree a large number of DO students are such because of admissions numbers, you cannot claim that the statements on adopting the DO philosophy to be bogus.
I suggest that if you want to start the GPA and MCAT score game, go post with the other mean-spirited students at the Princeton Review site. This site has the more intelligent and professional postings thus far and we do not need your attitude here.
[This message has been edited by NewDoc (edited July 12, 1999).]
This whole DO-MD-Carib thing is a crock, but it shows the level of disinformation out there. I have heard 1st hand of students going to Ross and after getting off the plane they go right back on. I also heard of some graduating and doing well.
I just met a guy at Barnes here in Orlando studying for step1 USMLE. He was a graduate of AUC and told me he had sold cars for 20 years before he decided to go to med school. Fine, you can do whatever you want its a free country, relatively. He told me that his OB rotation started with him meeting the doctor and then the guy telling him you watch this delivery then you help on the next 30...there's a line in the waiting room. Lovely I thought.
He told me that was the extent of his training for that rotation. He said thats the way they train. I said it what you didn't learn that's dangerous. He didn't reply.
I just met a guy at Barnes here in Orlando studying for step1 USMLE. He was a graduate of AUC and told me he had sold cars for 20 years before he decided to go to med school. Fine, you can do whatever you want its a free country, relatively. He told me that his OB rotation started with him meeting the doctor and then the guy telling him you watch this delivery then you help on the next 30...there's a line in the waiting room. Lovely I thought.
He told me that was the extent of his training for that rotation. He said thats the way they train. I said it what you didn't learn that's dangerous. He didn't reply.
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Okay, if we're JUST considering the Big 3 versus DO.. I guess it's whichever is up to your preference. There is without a doubt, that to get a good residency a Caribbean graduate will have to work harder than a DO. However, after that is entirely up to the student.
No one can deny either that the Caribbean schools have graduated some great doctors, and some bad ones.. but so have DOs. Such as at my school, or around my school a lot of the Doctors were DO and I had a consistent urge to take a 2x4 and see if I can bludgeon their brains to see if I could make an omlete. And not only that, but most people have no idea what a DO is.. and if you leave the country.. it's even worse.
So either route, if you work hard you'll reap the fruits of your labor regardless of whether or not you get a tan in the process and a scuba certificate. If you jerk around, DO, MD, that 2x4 is waiting in the dark.
No one can deny either that the Caribbean schools have graduated some great doctors, and some bad ones.. but so have DOs. Such as at my school, or around my school a lot of the Doctors were DO and I had a consistent urge to take a 2x4 and see if I can bludgeon their brains to see if I could make an omlete. And not only that, but most people have no idea what a DO is.. and if you leave the country.. it's even worse.
So either route, if you work hard you'll reap the fruits of your labor regardless of whether or not you get a tan in the process and a scuba certificate. If you jerk around, DO, MD, that 2x4 is waiting in the dark.
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to the 2 posters before me,
im not gonna go into this DO carib thing. been done too many times.
however, what i do want to point out is that you both continued a thread that died 5 years ago......
yep from the LAST MILLENNIUM
im not gonna go into this DO carib thing. been done too many times.
however, what i do want to point out is that you both continued a thread that died 5 years ago......
yep from the LAST MILLENNIUM
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Umm... why are people still responding to a thread that was five years old? Well, I guess I'm now guilty of it, too. It has been quite entertaining to read of all the inaccuracies, disinformation, and over-generalizations regarding the IMG route, though.
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you got that one right for sure
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I wonder what the guy wound up doing...
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Why did someone actually search for a thread from 1999 and bump it ?!?!?! Anyway, moving to the DO forum.
i recently sat down with an urology MD who wrote me my LOR that i have known for years. He told me that the medical education in carib schools has drastically improved in the past decade and said they are comparable to US schools. He also said that DO was a great option. Either way he said to do a little more than what was expected of you and you would likely get to where you wanted to go. He then began to list doctors in the local area that were IMG and DO that had placed into specialities such as Ortho, Cardiology, ENT and Uro.
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Let the thread dieeeee already..
I KEEP SAYING.. DO's are not a closet MD... if one is to choose DO.. do it for the phil and not because your parents want you to become a surgeon.
DO from the US you can practice anywhere in the world.. almost... but carrib grad not really... but please.. let this die... I am sure some troll will ask this question again soon.
I KEEP SAYING.. DO's are not a closet MD... if one is to choose DO.. do it for the phil and not because your parents want you to become a surgeon.
DO from the US you can practice anywhere in the world.. almost... but carrib grad not really... but please.. let this die... I am sure some troll will ask this question again soon.
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Must resist urge... must let thread... die...
ARGGHAHAHAHHAAH! NO, I just can't let this one go...
Well, if you're worried about having an "enigma" on your credentials, I gotta tell you that you have much bigger problems to focus on first.
The first 10-15 posts on this thread are just so rife with garbage and misinformation. Fortunately, a lot of these completely uninformed and erroneous opinions have changed since this thread was first posted. It's a nice snapshot of how misinformed some people where even just a few years ago.
I credit this great forum, to a huge extent, in uncovering a lot of this bias and giving us the chance to discuss, sometimes cordially and, yes, other times heatedly, such issues. But, I hope people at least got a nice laugh when they started reading this thread. I know I did.
Great bump. Now, please don't follow my lead and let this thread die...
-Skip
ARGGHAHAHAHHAAH! NO, I just can't let this one go...
2bdoc said:
Well, if you're worried about having an "enigma" on your credentials, I gotta tell you that you have much bigger problems to focus on first.
The first 10-15 posts on this thread are just so rife with garbage and misinformation. Fortunately, a lot of these completely uninformed and erroneous opinions have changed since this thread was first posted. It's a nice snapshot of how misinformed some people where even just a few years ago.
I credit this great forum, to a huge extent, in uncovering a lot of this bias and giving us the chance to discuss, sometimes cordially and, yes, other times heatedly, such issues. But, I hope people at least got a nice laugh when they started reading this thread. I know I did.
Great bump. Now, please don't follow my lead and let this thread die...
-Skip
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As a 4th year osteopathic student that has done clinical rotations at some highly respected allopathic programs I can tell you that the quality of your work is more important than the degree you are seeking. Yes, a few (very few and this is becoming less with younger Docs) MD's think you have a "lesser" degree if you are a DO, but if you are an excellent student then when you work with them you open there eyes that hey this guy is better than some of the best students at our MD school. I have been told by numerous allopathic preceptors that I was the best student they have ever had and have gotten top of the line LOR from some highly respected docs in their fields. The reason for this is that when I learn medicine, I learn to know so that I can give the best care to my patients. I have been on rotations with MD students that saw me as inferior, but once they worked with me and they saw I could quote the Papez circuit and they could not or I could diagnose a rare disease that the lead Resident on our team could not, or I could develop a plan that the attending was proud of. They respected me and my training. Like I said before, it all comes down to the quality of you as a student. That saying I have some students in my class that I would be afraid to work on cattle let alone people. But I think that all boils down to them being poor students that do not realize how important it is to be a "good" doc and not a "schmuck". As a previous poster stated, Most 95-99% of Docs whether MD or DO don't care what your degree is as long as you are "good" and know your medicine.
This is fact and once you get out in the real world you will see what I say is true.
Pointers:
1) When studying medicine don't get lazy and ask yourself why? why? why?
Why does this disease process cause this clinical symptom? Why does this drug work the way it does? Why would I give drug A in situation A vs drug B in the same situation? Why should I order an U/S over a CT and vice versa? Etc.... Medicine is about understanding Why! If you understand the Why's then you will understand medicine and will shine on clinical rotations.
2) When on Rotations carry something like a small notepad or your PDA and every tidbit of information your preceptor or resident tells you that you want to keep so that you will know you learned something on the rotation, document it, document it!!! I actually would go home and type up this information for each rotation and it really helped me for Step 2 of the boards.
3) Always be courteous, even if you have a less than courteous preceptor or resident-- after all you are at the most going to be with them for 6 weeks and alot of times only 4
4) Always ask to help your resident even if they act like they don't need it. They will really appreciate it and will let the attending know in most instances.
5) If you don't like a certain rotation, still try to be interested in it and try to learn on that month even if you don't like it. If you don't, time will go so slow on that rotation and it won't be fun.
6) If you are doing a rotation at a possible residency spot for you, try to get to know the director or assistant director of the program you are applying. Just stop by and let them know how interested you are in the spot and WORK HARD on the rotation you are on so you get known.
7) Again, Everyone will know from the preceptors to the nurses to fellow med students if you are a quality student and are going to be a quality physician, or if you are "less than ideal" I Guarantee this, even if they don't tell you to your face-- they probably will be telling everyone behind your back.
8) At the end of the previous rotation and during your current rotation check out some books on the field you are doing a clinical rotation in and read whether its Blueprints, general text, or something because it will help you know the answers to alot of the questions that you get pimped on and if not then you will at least learn some new information.
9) Try to read an article a week in your field of current rotation and bring up some new information about it. Your preceptor will be glad to see you are trying to stay current.
9) Learn, Learn, Learn, and Learn some more!!!
Have Fun and Enjoy Medicine-- I know I do!!
This is fact and once you get out in the real world you will see what I say is true.
Pointers:
1) When studying medicine don't get lazy and ask yourself why? why? why?
Why does this disease process cause this clinical symptom? Why does this drug work the way it does? Why would I give drug A in situation A vs drug B in the same situation? Why should I order an U/S over a CT and vice versa? Etc.... Medicine is about understanding Why! If you understand the Why's then you will understand medicine and will shine on clinical rotations.
2) When on Rotations carry something like a small notepad or your PDA and every tidbit of information your preceptor or resident tells you that you want to keep so that you will know you learned something on the rotation, document it, document it!!! I actually would go home and type up this information for each rotation and it really helped me for Step 2 of the boards.
3) Always be courteous, even if you have a less than courteous preceptor or resident-- after all you are at the most going to be with them for 6 weeks and alot of times only 4
4) Always ask to help your resident even if they act like they don't need it. They will really appreciate it and will let the attending know in most instances.
5) If you don't like a certain rotation, still try to be interested in it and try to learn on that month even if you don't like it. If you don't, time will go so slow on that rotation and it won't be fun.
6) If you are doing a rotation at a possible residency spot for you, try to get to know the director or assistant director of the program you are applying. Just stop by and let them know how interested you are in the spot and WORK HARD on the rotation you are on so you get known.
7) Again, Everyone will know from the preceptors to the nurses to fellow med students if you are a quality student and are going to be a quality physician, or if you are "less than ideal" I Guarantee this, even if they don't tell you to your face-- they probably will be telling everyone behind your back.
8) At the end of the previous rotation and during your current rotation check out some books on the field you are doing a clinical rotation in and read whether its Blueprints, general text, or something because it will help you know the answers to alot of the questions that you get pimped on and if not then you will at least learn some new information.
9) Try to read an article a week in your field of current rotation and bring up some new information about it. Your preceptor will be glad to see you are trying to stay current.
9) Learn, Learn, Learn, and Learn some more!!!
Have Fun and Enjoy Medicine-- I know I do!!
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Great post, Doc_Thks_JC!
I also have done rotations with allopathic students and I have known just as much, if not more, than them about different patients, different disease processes, etc. I have also been told several times that "LECOM students are always good when they do rotations here," so I guess we aren't getting such a bad education after all. MD vs DO does not matter in the real world, only in the pre-med world.
(Sorry for bumping this thread up again, I just wanted to compliment Doc_Thks_JC )
I also have done rotations with allopathic students and I have known just as much, if not more, than them about different patients, different disease processes, etc. I have also been told several times that "LECOM students are always good when they do rotations here," so I guess we aren't getting such a bad education after all. MD vs DO does not matter in the real world, only in the pre-med world.
(Sorry for bumping this thread up again, I just wanted to compliment Doc_Thks_JC
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Leukocyte said:
I don't believe in my original post .. there was anything in there about a FACT being stated. I said not really...
If Ross and SGU graduates can practice anywhere.. or most places in the world... or even just in one country .. that they wish to practice in .. than hey all the best for them. I don't want anyone to study for 4 years and be prevented from working.
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docbill said:
I don't believe this to be the case. In fact, the reverse of what you said is more accurate. Carib MDs will have a much better chance at practicing anywhere they want to in the world compared to U.S. Osteo grads. But, let's be realistic: most of us will spend our entire lives practicing in the U.S.
And, extremely nice post and great advice from Doc_Thks_JC.
-Skip
