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We were definitely on the same page
Dare you to reply!
- Thread starter RadOncMegatron
- Start date
We were definitely on the same page
There are smart people who are
1.creative
2. Efficient
3. Compassionate
4. Industrious
5. Organized
6. brilliant/genius
And many more coExisting qualities that might make one a good doctor
likewise there are plenty of smart people with the opposite of these traits.
Unfortunately many of these are hard to measure on the mcat Or during the application/interview process and even harder to standardize.
I generally agree with the concept of the most qualified getting the spot but think it’s very hard to know who that is/how to measure it.
I’m not sure what race has to do with measuring any of these qualities.
1.creative
2. Efficient
3. Compassionate
4. Industrious
5. Organized
6. brilliant/genius
And many more coExisting qualities that might make one a good doctor
likewise there are plenty of smart people with the opposite of these traits.
Unfortunately many of these are hard to measure on the mcat Or during the application/interview process and even harder to standardize.
I generally agree with the concept of the most qualified getting the spot but think it’s very hard to know who that is/how to measure it.
I’m not sure what race has to do with measuring any of these qualities.
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You both have incredibly reasonable and fair takes. At least ones that should be part of the discourse but are not due to fear. Self censorship on this topic is real.
I wish I had the psychiatric vocabulistic armamentarium to speak cogently about this phenomenon. But I find the "hate" directed at Wang, and other Wang-like people/situations, to arise from a very self-interested place as opposed to a concern-about-others place. It starts from an "you offended me" mindset. How dare you offend me?! It's what Dave Chappelle called a "bitter spirit." It appears the tweet below was what started it all?
Wound collectors is the term I've seen used.
It's OK to have real gripes...and there are lots of legit gripes out there. But it starts to push over the edge and become wound collecting.
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Exactly, whether you agree with him or not, it clearly falls within the realm of legitimate discourse and debate.I wish I had the psychiatric vocabulistic armamentarium to speak cogently about this phenomenon. But I find the "hate" directed at Wang, and other Wang-like people/situations, to arise from a very self-interested place as opposed to a concern-about-others place. It starts from an "you offended me" mindset. How dare you offend me?! It's what Dave Chappelle called a "bitter spirit." It appears the tweet below was what started it all?
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look at your question above. Explain how you aren’t saying it would be bad to have more asian males...because I think you are but I’m willing to hear your explanation
to answer your followup, I don’t care at all about the demographic results of a selection process based on merits, never have. So if the meritocracy produces equal distribution in a field that’s just a coincidence and not a goal to be praised. The goal should always be eliminating discrimination in our processes. It seems like you are proposing to stop meritocracy and replace it with minimal standards so that you can institute racial discrimination. Again, I’m willing to hear explanation otherwise
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Just want to say that, especially given the anonymity afforded here, you are more than welcome to continue this discussion as long as it remains respectful. No twitter mob can get you here. Also SDN is open to all sets of opinions.
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I wish I had the psychiatric vocabulistic armamentarium to speak cogently about this phenomenon. But I find the "hate" directed at Wang, and other Wang-like people/situations, to arise from a very self-interested place as opposed to a concern-about-others place. It starts from an "you offended me" mindset. How dare you offend me?! It's what Dave Chappelle called a "bitter spirit." It appears the tweet below was what started it all?
I can say with 100% confidence that if this medical student ever applied to a residency program I had any influence in, there would be an absolutely ZERO percent chance I would ever in a million years considering to interview her.
Twitter mob-stokers will be shunned by some proportion of the silent majority.
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There is no right criteria for admissions selections in my opinion. Everyone will factor different things differently, which is fine.
If we're really moving towards a post-racial society, then admissions should be race neutral. Scholarships should be race neutral. Race shouldn't even be asked on the application. Reviewers should be blinded to it. That's impossible when you have interviews, but undergrads don't do interviews.
If we're really moving towards a post-racial society, then admissions should be race neutral. Scholarships should be race neutral. Race shouldn't even be asked on the application. Reviewers should be blinded to it. That's impossible when you have interviews, but undergrads don't do interviews.
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The end result is that she went from having a nice day to having an amazing day because she was able to fill up on sanctimony and outrage, the fuel of today's youth since they gave up on sex. All while doing nothing more than using her cell phone on her couch.
There are certain advantages to having a black patient seeing a black doctor with same background. Better understanding of cultural norms, better communication and trust. There are some Asian patients that prefer to see me even if I don't speak their particular language. I assume it's a matter of comfort and trust. It's not just for the sake of having equal proportions, like your pro football example.
For Ob/Gyn, I think it makes more sense to have more women. Again, it's not about the numbers, it's more about mirroring the patient.
One of my best friends is a pediatrician, but does not have children of his own. He is very bright, went to a top med school, and a top pediatric program. I would absolutely trust him with taking care of my kid if he got sick. However, I believe he would be an even better pediatrician if he had his kids of own. Even he says he has a harder time relating to some of his patient's parents compared to his colleagues that have children. Parents like to talk about sleepless nights, picky eaters, schools/teachers, bullies. Being able to connect is important and not everything can be taught in medical school/residency.
Imagine a scenario with Hispanic patient needing primary care. There is a white doctor with MCAT of 32 (not familiar with new system), Step 1 of 230, graduates 75%tile compared with a Hispanic doctor with MCAT 28 and Step 1 of 210 who graduates 50%tile, both pass the boards. Could you with absolute certainty say that the white doctor with better stats can provide more "efficient" care than the Hispanic doctor that speaks the same language and has the same background as the patient?
To be honest, I don't know what the right answer is, but I just don't think it's as simple as you suggest - the best scores = best outcomes/most efficient.
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It’s a bit much that you assume a hispanic patient doesn’t speak English, the hispanic doctor does speak Spanish and the white doctor only speaks English.
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Instead of being blinded to race, it's... "anti-blinding." Call it "Anti-blinding is King." In "Black is King" (which I didn't quite "get"... for why, see below!) there's one part where Beyonce says "we were beauty before they knew what beauty was." Depressingly, I think I'm part of the ignorant and/or obtuse "they." And so, theoretically, 1) I'm hopeless, 2) there's a bunch of folks who are hopeless (but many who aren't, and are beautiful), and 3) race will never be allowed to reach neutrality. I want to not be a part of the "they," but calling for neutrality will be a huge sign you're "they." Calling for neutrality is the academic equivalent of carrying an "all lives matter" banner at a BLM rally.
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Yep. I'm anonymous on SDN. I don't say this stuff in the real world. I know what would happen. BTW, white race is the minority in my county and community where I live now and where I grew up. I'm in a mixed race marriage with mixed race children. I speak English and Spanish. Who cares about all that right? White cis-gender man bad. Doesn't matter that my ancestors are a blend of many ethnic groups who settled in the northern US or are fairly recent immigrants.
Alright man, you got me. The scenario I presented never actually happens. All Hispanic people speak and understand perfect English, and white doctors speak and understand perfect Spanish. I just like to make up wildly unlikely scenarios for the sake of arguing on the internet.
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It's complicated. I know hispanic people who speak no or atrocious Spanish. I know people of some other races who speak excellent Spanish. I'm just sick of this race/ethnicity thing painting people with such a broad brush. I think all people are different, and to assume things about people just because of the color of their skin or genetic ancestry is racist.
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Such is human nature. It's like if you go to a pizza place you've never been to before, and find out it's run by four black women, you'll go "Hmm."
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I'm results driven. I look at the pictures of the product on Yelp or what people are eating. If it looks good to me, the menu looks solid, the reviews are reasonable, I'm all in. A lot of pizza joints where I grew up were run by Greeks or other middle easterners. What's the difference between those ethnicities and african-americans when it comes to pizza?
Yes, I complete agree that it's complicated and I hate the painting with the broad brush as well. I am not saying there aren't Hispanic people that don't know English or white doctors that don't know really good Spanish. My argument is simply, better MCAT/USMLE does not necessarily = better doctor. I was just trying to provide an example of why it's more complicated than that.
If the great scarb himself doesn't have "the psychiatric vocabulistic armamentarium to speak cogently about this phenomenon", then there's not much hope for the rest of us.
When it comes to "moving towards a post-racial society", that is precisely the opposite of what postmodernism and critical race theory want to do. They want to infuse everything with race and power, including truth and science itself. As a result, the AHA article simply HAD to be attacked and pulled. Whether or not it was truthful from a data and objectivity perspective was immaterial- it spoke against the (unproveable, data-free) doctrine and needed to be voraciously attacked.
I've enjoyed Brett Weinstein's Dark Horse Podcast with his wife on these topics, but it does make for depressing listening when you realize how truly deep into all this stuff academia (including medicine now) has sunk.
Edit: I'm also a dude who speaks spanish who might not look like he would.
When it comes to "moving towards a post-racial society", that is precisely the opposite of what postmodernism and critical race theory want to do. They want to infuse everything with race and power, including truth and science itself. As a result, the AHA article simply HAD to be attacked and pulled. Whether or not it was truthful from a data and objectivity perspective was immaterial- it spoke against the (unproveable, data-free) doctrine and needed to be voraciously attacked.
I've enjoyed Brett Weinstein's Dark Horse Podcast with his wife on these topics, but it does make for depressing listening when you realize how truly deep into all this stuff academia (including medicine now) has sunk.
Edit: I'm also a dude who speaks spanish who might not look like he would.
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So tell me the most valid metric of how we choose good doctors both from an IQ and EQ standpoint?
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What's the MD equivalent to free throw percentages and 3rd down conversions for determining the best physicians?
The sports analogy to this issue never made any sense to me. Being a doctor means meeting certain competency standards, and that's it
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The better question is why do you think racial discrimination has place in picking the best doctors, because I propose it does not
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Never proposed discrimination, anymore than you are pro Asian/white when it comes to becoming a physician, but thanks for playing
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Look above. How do you propose to achieve that goal (or even justify having a racial goal) without discrimination?
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How is it discrimination if there are many more applicants than slots available and they are all qualified?
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You are proposing loosening the standard to minimally qualified as opposed to most qualified for the express purpose of preferentially recruiting/accepting particular applicants on the basis of race/gender... again I would ask, how do you justify racial discrimination for this situation?
you’ve already openly said you think there is a point at which there are too many asian males. You‘ve already expressed a desire to have a quota system where the ideal would be matriculant demographics mirroring the general population. Why is that racial discrimination ok?
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What standards have i proposed loosening? The second part of your statement is false.
You still have yet to define the metrics which best define the most qualified physicians.
Let's try to be intellectually honest about defining one another's positions shall we?
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The posts are on topic. But I’ll do as requested
Didn't have a chance to read dr wangs article, but I think we may already have minimum competency issues with the existing classes we are admitting. Not sure how we increase representation when first time board failure rates (a minimum competency?) are already quite high among urm students relative to their non-urm counterparts. You should see the bar exam data for law students. In California, the bar pass rate was 5% for black test takers this year. Are we really doing these students a favor allowing them to incur several hundred k of debt to meet some representation quota, knowing full well the pass rate on these exams is very low and they may never get jobs to pay off their debt? Sounds a lot like the field of rad onc right about now actually...
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In the mainstream media (CNN) “Black newborns 3 times more likely to die when looked after by White doctors”
amp.cnn.com
Said it before now just wonder if when patients will ask for doctors based on race. For the lay public isn’t reasonable to ask if this narrative is being pushed? Don’t forget the JCO Penner et al article saying something similar for cancer patients.
Original article published in PNAS - wow
www.pnas.org
Black newborns 3 times more likely to die when looked after by White doctors
Black newborn babies in the United States are more likely to survive childbirth if they are cared for by Black doctors, but three times more likely to die when looked after by White doctors, a study has found.
amp.cnn.com
Said it before now just wonder if when patients will ask for doctors based on race. For the lay public isn’t reasonable to ask if this narrative is being pushed? Don’t forget the JCO Penner et al article saying something similar for cancer patients.
Original article published in PNAS - wow
Physician–patient racial concordance and disparities in birthing mortality for newborns
A large body of work highlights disparities in survival rates across Black and White newborns during childbirth. We posit that these differences may be ameliorated by racial concordance between the physician and newborn patient. Findings suggest that when Black newborns are cared for by Black...
In the mainstream media (CNN) “Black newborns 3 times more likely to die when looked after by White doctors”
Black newborns 3 times more likely to die when looked after by White doctors
Black newborn babies in the United States are more likely to survive childbirth if they are cared for by Black doctors, but three times more likely to die when looked after by White doctors, a study has found.
Said it before now just wonder if when patients will ask for doctors based on race. For the lay public isn’t reasonable to ask if this narrative is being pushed? Don’t forget the JCO Penner et al article saying something similar for cancer patients.
Original article published in PNAS - wow
Physician–patient racial concordance and disparities in birthing mortality for newborns
A large body of work highlights disparities in survival rates across Black and White newborns during childbirth. We posit that these differences may be ameliorated by racial concordance between the physician and newborn patient. Findings suggest that when Black newborns are cared for by Black...
I think this line of research is inherently problematic... not because these questions shouldn't be asked, but because they are only allowed to be asked in one direction. If a study found the opposite -that black babies are more likely to die at the hands of black doctors- the authors would be panned/ostracized regardless of the factual basis.
Research is already biased by the fact that positive studies are exceedingly more likely to be published than negative ones-if a question is asked 20 times and the results are negative 19 times but we only see the positive result, we can falsely believe that there is a statistically significant difference...
...this is only amplified when we only ask questions where a positive result reaffirms a societal belief.
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Unsurprisingly the title is misleading and not an accurate representation of the findingsIn the mainstream media (CNN) “Black newborns 3 times more likely to die when looked after by White doctors”
Black newborns 3 times more likely to die when looked after by White doctors
Black newborn babies in the United States are more likely to survive childbirth if they are cared for by Black doctors, but three times more likely to die when looked after by White doctors, a study has found.
Said it before now just wonder if when patients will ask for doctors based on race. For the lay public isn’t reasonable to ask if this narrative is being pushed? Don’t forget the JCO Penner et al article saying something similar for cancer patients.
Original article published in PNAS - wow
Physician–patient racial concordance and disparities in birthing mortality for newborns
A large body of work highlights disparities in survival rates across Black and White newborns during childbirth. We posit that these differences may be ameliorated by racial concordance between the physician and newborn patient. Findings suggest that when Black newborns are cared for by Black...
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I'm sure Reshma Jagsi will find a way to run an analogous analysis, go p-value fishing, and make headlines for pulling out some random gender difference. Sounds about right for something she's made an entire career out of.
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Redirect Notice
www.google.com
Thought this was an appropriate thread to sort of really bluntly lay out the societal double standard...
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And shots are fired back! I highly agree with this move. I hope it goes into the education system elementary to grad school (edit: including med school and oncology!) as well.
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Jessica Krug would have made a much more interesting Astro speaker
nypost.com
Professor Jessica Krug admits she lied about being black: ‘I cancel myself’
“I have lived this lie, fully, completely, with no exit plan or strategy,” the George Washington University race historian said in a life-shattering post.
nypost.com
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Called it. Though it's not a paper, I knew that the first name / Being called "Dr." would not last. See the Tweet by Taison (he wants to be called by his first name right?) who is definitely on the woker side things (see article and views in pic) now wanting to be called by first name.
Is there anyone under 70 here that doesn't want nor call their colleagues by first name? I wonder if Dr. Bell will be getting push back?
I 100% agree with Dr. McCullough below:
I used to call all my colleagues by their first name. Now I find myself calling my female colleagues "Dr. So and So" at tumor boards, because LOTS of my female former medical school classmates (I'm in my early 40s) are constantly complaining on facebook about how they are called by their first name, rather than "Dr." in a professional setting.
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I also make it a strong point to call any female MD that is also an attending Dr. So and So unless they specifically tell me not to. Male attendings outside of my department over the age of 55-60 I end up defaulting to doctor. Only males within the department that I routinely call Doctor are the chair of rad onc and chair of physics.
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I'm the same way and am concerned that I will be perceived as "disrespectful." Although pratically, I always call someone "Dr." until they say "you can call me by my first name." I even do that for residents I don't know.
The reality is that if a someone asks you to call them by their first name, it is usually a sign of respect, and we should be charitable to recognize that as such. I also recognize that it can be seen as disrespectful. Has anyone been in the awkward situation where you are like "Hey, you call me John/Jane Doe" but they say "I prefer to be called Dr. XYZ."
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Update on the Dr. Norman Wang's situation. I hope the feds get not only Pitt, but the AHA as well. I have no issues with a rebuttal to Dr. Wang's article. It's about time there is real push back on this nonsense. The reality is though, open discussion is >>>> than retraction and getting the DOE involved, but such are the times...
Edit: Full DOE letter here: https://libertyunyielding.com/wp-co...rgh-Oct.-7-2020-about-Norman-Wang-removal.pdf
Edit: Full DOE letter here: https://libertyunyielding.com/wp-co...rgh-Oct.-7-2020-about-Norman-Wang-removal.pdf
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This letter only gets sent from the executive branch if it's (R). Once it's (D), expect Pitt's "problem" to evaporate.
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I completely agree. This is going to get ugly really fast. (R) will make full use until transition of power. If (D) gets in power it may also weaponize the DOE. Not good for anyone. Unfortunately, no vaccine for this...
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Did you read the DOE's letter. It was pretty... angry. Subpoenas. Interviews. Question responses. Big money threats. But also making point after point; e.g. colleagues got on twitter and called him racist and DOE asks Pitt "was that defamatory under PA law, if not why not?" And Pitt's getting a DOJ Civil Rights referral too. As much as it sucked for Wang the last year it's about to suck for Pitt.
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There's weaponization of the DOJ now according to some.. unfortunately i do believe the current WH occupant has been a catalyst to bad actors on both sides and i don't know if this will cease when the other side is in power
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It looks like Moore's Law has begun to apply to partisanship.
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One can hope. It wont' end well otherwise.
@scarbrtj I did read the letter. It's something where I initially said "Oh yea GO GET 'em" until I realized when the DOE / DOJ weapon is pointed at your team it's no fun. The cat is out of the bad. None of us here contributed to it, but we are now caught up in it. It really should've been an intramedicine debate. Now since it's a social media and government agency war, we will all lose.
Game theory wise, it seems very unfortunately, that the best strategy is to strike when it's your turn as you feel the other side will strike when it's their turn. Can Vinay Prasad stop it?!?! I hope he will not get crushed from sticking his neck out.
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Seems to be surviving the big pharma industrial complex just fine...