DEI is ruining UCLA. Seems the DEI pendulum swings too far the wrong way.

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

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Members don't see this ad.

Have never heard of this. I am not into politics. What is third rail?

Third rail means don't touch it analogous to the third rail of a train track, touch it and you die.

 

[rowsdower88]

Congress makes the laws in the USA. If they want to increase the representing of under represented minorities in certain occupations for a more holistic approach. How about we have DEI with congress elections first. Do it the Russian way for elections.

Only put under represented minority on the ballet and have people choose only from those people.

Or have special factors so that the URM (under presented minority) candidate gets a 30% boost on votes to level the playing field. So if Biden/trump/pelosi/whoever the f the house speaker is/. If they get 60% of the votes and the URM candidate gets 40% of the voters. The URM candidate will win the election since they get 30% boost.

That’s what DEI is folks. DEI should apply to the diversity of congress and other ceo types of positions as well to reflect the USA populations. After all. An URM should be ceo of a large private equity owned rental business conglomerate since they will have a more holistic view approach to not kicking out other URM in section 8 rental units the rental business owns? Right? Since they are the same color race.

I don't think you know what a DEI office does. (1) I'll reiterate this point, DEI was never mentioned in the original article. The only reason you and others bring it up is because it's a buzzword you attach to anything about race you find distasteful. DEI does not mean affirmative action.

Most people (not you) would be fine with 95-99% of what a DEI office actually does on a daily basis. It's mostly just providing a space to hear employee/student complaints, try to increase employee/student retention, and increase employment/enrollment because diversity actually matters to a lot of employees/students when they are asked what is important to them when looking for a job/school.

"More than 3 in 4 employees and job seekers (76%) report a diverse workforce is an important factor when evaluating companies and job offers."

"Half of Black (47%) and Hispanic (49%) job seekers and employees have quit a job after witnessing or experiencing discrimination at work, significantly higher than white (38%) job seekers and employees."

"About 1 in 3 employees and job seekers (32%) would not apply to a job at a company where there is a lack of diversity among its workforce." (2)

Corporations and universities don't spend money creating DEI offices just to conform with liberal values. They arguably create them because that's what employees and students say they want. It's the free market in action. Just stop using DEI when you really mean affirmative action or whatever weird fever dream you were having about "DEI for congress".

1. What Does Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DEI) Mean in the Workplace?

2. Glassdoor’s Diversity and Inclusion Workplace Survey - Glassdoor US

Edit: I'll be more charitable and suggest maybe you're referring just to DEI as an ideology or idea (it's not an ideology). If that's the case, you really need to talk with someone who works in a DEI office and not just parrot DEI detractors.

 

[deleted1183938]

Third rail means don't touch it analogous to the third rail of a train track, touch it and you die.

Aha. Thank you.

 

[rowsdower88]

x.com

x.com

Thread from UCLA med student critical of the original article.

Most interestingly, he cites a report on the effects of delaying USMLE testing and how it was predicted that with the changes they've made to their curriculum the poor clerkship performances were expected BUT that is also expected to improve over time. He uses the phrase: "the Jurich et al. article would predict, shelf exam scores normalize by the end of the second year at UCLA". I don't know if that's an accurate prediction or not based on the article he cited, but that is the claim at least.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10401334.2020.1860063

 

[BLADEMDA]

"It's a combination of a bad curriculum and bad selection," another professor said, referring to the admissions process. Some students are accepted with GPAs so low "they shouldn't even be applying."

 

[BLADEMDA]

Jennifer Lucero, MD, MA: Inclusive Excellence Efforts in Anesthesiology

www.uclahealth.org

I found the cause of the problem. Until the cause is removed the problem will continue.

 

[Maz777]

Jennifer Lucero, MD, MA: Inclusive Excellence Efforts in Anesthesiology

www.uclahealth.org

I found the cause of the problem. Until the cause is removed the problem will continue.

That would imply that there is accountability in academic medicine. We all know that isn't the case. You kiss the correct arse and you are set for your career. The curd rises to the top. Very few of us would recommend any department Chair/Vice Chair providing anesthesia to a family member. There are the ones that perform well clinically and take pride in it, and then there are the ones that move their way up administration. In all actuality, it's probably best for local patient care.

 

[BLADEMDA]

D.I.E.- Certainly applies to Med School at UCLA.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Just saw this comment on reddit:
"I think in our general culture idolizes the struggle and over coming adversity. If you don't have your struggle story than you're seen as lucky, or privileged, or like you didn't earn what you have. It's like everyone has to justify their existence in context of what mountain they had to climb. So you end up with these stupid struggolympics where everyone has to out struggle each other for the moral high ground."

This mentality has been popularized on social media and reality TV. I know a guy who auditioned for a popular talent show on TV. At the initial audition, they wanted to know what struggle in life he had faced and how he over came it. The running theme on the show once they got on the air was that everyone amplified their struggle in an attempt to have the audience connect with them as a victim who had overcome great obstacles. If you ever watch shows like that, the theme is hard not to see and now makes the shows pretty unwatchable for me since I now know they are mostly contrived.
I hope our society can get past the victimhood mentality. It has become rampant.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Third rail means don't touch it analogous to the third rail of a train track, touch it and you die.

More specifically, it is the source of electrical power for mass transit trains. Therefore, it is “charged” and untouchable. It could be like discussing the idea that the BLM movement advocated for reverse racism, division, and hatred while in a room filled with BLM supporters. Or suggesting that Trump was nothing like Hitler in a room full of far left democrats. Or suggesting that DEI policies are harmful in a departmental discussion led by the director of DEI. Or suggesting that the economy has never been better than under the Biden administration while attending a Trump rally. I think those would all be considered third rail topics based on the settings.

 

[rowsdower88]

More specifically, it is the source of electrical power for mass transit trains. Therefore, it is “charged” and untouchable. It could be like discussing the idea that the BLM movement advocated for reverse racism, division, and hatred while in a room filled with BLM supporters. Or suggesting that Trump was nothing like Hitler in a room full of far left democrats. Or suggesting that DEI policies are harmful in a departmental discussion led by the director of DEI. Or suggesting that the economy has never been better than under the Biden administration while attending a Trump rally. I think those would all be considered third rail topics based on the settings.

Or suggesting that Operation Warp Speed was a good Trump policy while attending a Trump rally.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Or suggesting that Operation Warp Speed was a good Trump policy while attending a Trump rally.

Yes. Or suggesting that maybe people should not have been fired over Covid vaccine status on this forum.

 

[nimbus]

This mentality has been popularized on social media and reality TV. I know a guy who auditioned for a popular talent show on TV. At the initial audition, they wanted to know what struggle in life he had faced and how he over came it. The running theme on the show once they got on the air was that everyone amplified their struggle in an attempt to have the audience connect with them as a victim who had overcome great obstacles. If you ever watch shows like that, the theme is hard not to see and now makes the shows pretty unwatchable for me since I now know they are mostly contrived.
I hope our society can get past the victimhood mentality. It has become rampant.

Most schools nowadays have an application essay prompt that requires applicants to write about a personal struggle. A lot of applicants are very privileged kids. If they answered honestly their main struggle would be “my rich parents are maniacs”. Years ago I read something to the effect of “suffering is not a competition”. Wise words.

 

[rowsdower88]

Yes. Or suggesting that maybe people should not have been fired over Covid vaccine status on this forum.

More this than third rail.

 

[deleted1183938]

Jennifer Lucero, MD, MA: Inclusive Excellence Efforts in Anesthesiology

www.uclahealth.org

I found the cause of the problem. Until the cause is removed the problem will continue.

Wait. I thought we were talking of the medical school and students. Is she working with students? Seems like she works with the residents.

 

[aneftp]

I don't think you know what a DEI office does. (1) I'll reiterate this point, DEI was never mentioned in the original article. The only reason you and others bring it up is because it's a buzzword you attach to anything about race you find distasteful. DEI does not mean affirmative action.

Most people (not you) would be fine with 95-99% of what a DEI office actually does on a daily basis. It's mostly just providing a space to hear employee/student complaints, try to increase employee/student retention, and increase employment/enrollment because diversity actually matters to a lot of employees/students when they are asked what is important to them when looking for a job/school.

"More than 3 in 4 employees and job seekers (76%) report a diverse workforce is an important factor when evaluating companies and job offers."

"Half of Black (47%) and Hispanic (49%) job seekers and employees have quit a job after witnessing or experiencing discrimination at work, significantly higher than white (38%) job seekers and employees."

"About 1 in 3 employees and job seekers (32%) would not apply to a job at a company where there is a lack of diversity among its workforce." (2)

Corporations and universities don't spend money creating DEI offices just to conform with liberal values. They arguably create them because that's what employees and students say they want. It's the free market in action. Just stop using DEI when you really mean affirmative action or whatever weird fever dream you were having about "DEI for congress".

1. What Does Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DEI) Mean in the Workplace?

2. Glassdoor’s Diversity and Inclusion Workplace Survey - Glassdoor US

Edit: I'll be more charitable and suggest maybe you're referring just to DEI as an ideology or idea (it's not an ideology). If that's the case, you really need to talk with someone who works in a DEI office and not just parrot DEI detractors.

Companies talk a big game.

“
Diversity in the workplace is important because with different backgrounds come different points of view, which ultimately leads to better ideas and solutions.

“From a business standpoint, different perspectives directly influence a product — how it’s made, who it serves, how it functions and so on,” Colman said. “More perspectives make for a better product.” People from different backgrounds with varying life experiences will be able to provide new perspectivesthat help refine and enhance processes.”

Yet when it comes to real life execution. It’s still a white man run world. With some token dei “leadership “ position

We aren’t talking about dei office spending. We are talking about dei policy

 

[anonperson]

So do you think that this is due to their race? They perform poorly because they are inherently not as intelligent? This isn’t even controversial?

I don't know why they didn't score as well nor do I care.

If the majority of physicians are women because they score better and do better, I don't care.

Same if the majority were White/Asian etc.

Best person for the job.

Liberals on the other hand care deeply about the makeup and basically want a quota system when it suits them.

 

[rowsdower88]

I don't know why they didn't score as well nor do I care.

If the majority of physicians are women because they score better and do better, I don't care.

Same if the majority were White/Asian etc.

Best person for the job.

Liberals on the other hand care deeply about the makeup and basically want a quota system when it suits them.

There have been no racial quotas since 1978. Since '78, universities have been allowed to promote racial diversity as a compelling state interest. But that is, with exceptions, being eliminated with the recent SCOTUS decisions.

No one is advocating for quotas. That's your imagination.

Edit: Well... maybe Ibram X Kendi advocates for them... but I don't think he's a liberal or on this platform.

 

[Goro]

To all the "DEI is the problem" posters here: is there any data that the problem at UCLA is related? 50% fail rate is pretty high. What's the pass rate for "dei" students vs non "dei" students? Surely if you all are making this claim you have the data right?

The new, one year preclinical curriculum may be a better explanation.

There's an identical thread on this in the Pre-MD forum.

 

[Burned_Out]

Yeah except @anonperson just linked a study of the urology match and URMs and he’s very quick to like this post which contradicts his reference to a Science Direct article. So quite frankly there are apparently studies out there if you cared to look instead of just jumping on “they won’t publish it.
Hahah. You guys are hilarious.

I'm looking for more than a tiny urology match study, silly.

 

[BLADEMDA]

The new, one year preclinical curriculum may be a better explanation.

There's an identical thread on this in the Pre-MD forum.

Its a combination of the one year curriculum and the admissions policy. You need brighter students with exceptional test taking ability along with faculty that can teach all the medical school core basic science material in one year. Instead, UCLA went "all in" with DEI/DIE AND changed the curriculum to 1 year. A really bad combination IMHO. Instead, some of these students who were borderline admissions (I am being very generous here) needed MORE time to assimilate the massive amount of information in a traditional 2 year curriculum. I actually think the DIE candidates/admits would be better served with an additional pre-clinical year (5 year curriculum) to better prepare them for the medical school program.

 

[rowsdower88]

UCLA went "all in" with DEI/DIE

Lmao, this is "all in" to you? Black students stayed the same, white students stayed the same, asian students went down and hispanic and other students went up. Annual fluctuations prior to Lucero's arrival could have been bigger than what's on display here.

You're being dramatic.

"All in" on DEI is a dozen hispanic kids.

 

[BLADEMDA]

College of Medicine's Bridge Program recognized as diverse and inspiring for STEM students

The Florida State University College of Medicine’s Bridge Program has been honored for demonstrating that the school’s mission statement is more than just

news.fsu.edu

The average MCAT score for these students is way below the national average. An Asian or White Male student would stand little chance of acceptance to any medical school with those scores. However, the school is fulfilling its mission and the students are passing their Step exams.

 

[aneftp]

Its a combination of the one year curriculum and the admissions policy. You need brighter students with exceptional test taking ability along with faculty that can teach all the medical school core basic science material in one year. Instead, UCLA went "all in" with DEI/DIE AND changed the curriculum to 1 year. A really bad combination IMHO. Instead, some of these students who were borderline admissions (I am being very generous here) needed MORE time to assimilate the massive amount of information in a traditional 2 year curriculum. I actually think the DIE candidates/admits would be better served with an additional pre-clinical year (5 year curriculum) to better prepare them for the medical school program.

The issue is these dei matriculation students don’t want a big scarlet letter A in front of them. Than they will know they are charity cases admitted under a different criteria.

 

[Gern Blansten]

More this than third rail.

View attachment 387190

Is that Ben Affleck?

 

[deleted1183938]

I'm looking for more than a tiny urology match study, silly.

Ok Stupid.

 

[deleted1183938]

I don't know why they didn't score as well nor do I care.

If the majority of physicians are women because they score better and do better, I don't care.

Same if the majority were White/Asian etc.

Best person for the job.

Liberals on the other hand care deeply about the makeup and basically want a quota system when it suits them.

You don’t have to care but maybe the issues of why the scores are worse need to fixed first. Because if it was a true meritocracy from kindergarten those numbers would be higher. Considering studies show better outcomes when physicians look like their minority patients this is obviously something that needs to be taken into account.
So yeah, no true meritocracy exists in the USA. This is not Scandinavian country and the powers that be want to continue exactly how it is because it’s beneficial to them.
No you don’t have to care but this is not all about you. It’s about you know, the patients we took an oath to take care of.

 

[aneftp]

View attachment 387192

Lmao, this is "all in" to you? Black students stayed the same, white students stayed the same, asian students went down and hispanic and other students went up. Annual fluctuations prior to Lucero's arrival could have been bigger than what's on display here.

You're being dramatic.

"All in" on DEI is a dozen hispanic kids.

Without DEI, Asians admissions would go up higher and black and Hispanics would go down. Let’s not try to defend this. It’s the simple hard truth.

Do you see Asians complaining not enough Asians getting spots on college sports teams? Maybe. Because they aren’t “qualified??” Get it.

Asians don’t get DEI. Even in areas where they are under represented. Asian account for 16% of California population yet not awarded spots on college basketball teams

They make up 40% of college matriculation but don’t get 40% of college slots.

Why? Because they don’t deserve those college sports slot.

And yes. Asians would feel better if they get to watch other Asians play sports. See Yao Ming and Jeremy Lin. Shouldn’t we have DEI for Asians so their kids feel more in touch watching sports with their own culture?

 

[rowsdower88]

Without DEI, Asians admissions would go up higher and black and Hispanics would go down. Let’s not try to defend this. It’s the simple hard truth.

Do you see Asians complaining not enough Asians getting spots on college sports teams? Maybe. Because they aren’t “qualified??” Get it.

Asians don’t get DEI. Even in areas where they are under represented. Asian account for 16% of California population yet not awarded spots on college basketball teams

They make up 40% of college matriculation but don’t get 40% of college slots.

Why? Because they don’t deserve those college sports slot.

And yes. Asians would feel better if they get to watch other Asians play sports. See Yao Ming and Jeremy Lin. Shouldn’t we have DEI for Asians so their kids feel more in touch watching sports with their own culture?

My post was questioning the degree of support hispanic students are getting and Blade's use of "all in".

This isn't "all in" if black and white acceptance rates stay the same.

Weak.

There are more white students with below average scores getting into med school than black admissions all together.

Citing this for the 5th or 6th time:

Affirmative action doesn't hurt white medical school applicants

Quit whining that a black applicant "stole your spot" in medical school. She didn't.

www.statnews.com

 

[aneftp]

My post was questioning the degree of support and Blade's use of "all in".

This isn't "all in" if black and white acceptance rates stays the same.

Weak.

There are more white students with below average scores getting into med school than black admissions all together.

That is incorrect. You know that. U are playing the raw numbers game vs the percentage game. This is classic games liberal agenda people like to play.

Do you want to use the percentage game or the raw numbers games when supporting your argument. We have posted numerous times the average black and Latino test scores. They are well below the white and asians.

But you are using the raw numbers.

So lets say 1000 Asian/white students
vs. 50 URM students.

What you are trying to say to the dumb people out there is out of 1000 asian/white students, 50 of them have low scores so 50/1000.

Out of 50 URM students, 15 of them have low scores. So your argument is that 50 bad/low test scores white/asians> 15 URM low test scores.

Common folks fall for your line all the time.

Even the article you link tried to use the same exact maneuver i made an example of

"ut look at the average number of low-scoring black students accepted each year (132) and the total number of white applicants accepted each year (26,420). The chance that a low-scoring white medical school applicant will “lose” a spot to a low-scoring black applicant is 0.5 percent. How unlikely is that? It’s even less likely as the applicant dying in a car accident."

They use raw numbers and integrated with percentages. To confuse people.

 

[rowsdower88]

That is incorrect. You know that. U are playing the raw numbers game vs the percentage game. This is classic games liberal agenda people like to play.

Do you want to use the percentage game or the raw numbers games when supporting your argument. We have posted numerous times the average black and Latino test scores. They are well below the white and asians.

But you are using the raw numbers.

So lets say 1000 Asian/white students
vs. 50 URM students.

What you are trying to say to the dumb people out there is out of 1000 asian/white students, 50 of them have low scores so 50/1000.

Out of 50 URM students, 15 of them have low scores. So your argument is that 50 bad/low test scores white/asians> 15 URM low test scores.

Common folks fall for your line all the time.

Even the article you link tried to use the same exact maneuver i made an example of

"ut look at the average number of low-scoring black students accepted each year (132) and the total number of white applicants accepted each year (26,420). The chance that a low-scoring white medical school applicant will “lose” a spot to a low-scoring black applicant is 0.5 percent. How unlikely is that? It’s even less likely as the applicant dying in a car accident."

They use raw numbers and integrated with percentages. To confuse people.

I'm not trying to confuse you.

The article isn't trying to confuse you either.

No one is out to get you, this is a safe space.

The conclusion of the article is: If you are a white applicant, you are very very unlikely to lose your spot to a black applicant through affirmative action.

If you disagree with that conclusion, then maybe you could provide a source of your own.

I use raw numbers sometimes when I'm describing something and percentages when I'm describing something else. Sometimes raw numbers work better to describe something than percentages, sometimes the opposite is true.

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

What races would be left behind in a true meritocracy? Care to elaborate? I bet not but I have a little hope.

I have to agree with a previous poster that you are going for a "gotcha" moment and playing the left game that the first person to call the other person racist wins.

Let's pull feelings out of it and look analytically. 13 public high schools in Baltimore (40% of total) did not have a SINGLE student doing math at grade level. 75% of those were scored at not even close to grade level. We can theorize all day long whether that is because of racial, racist, cultural, socioeconomic, or district issues, the bottom line is they will be left behind in a meritocracy. Drawing that conclusion should not be controversial but unfortunately is.

 

[deleted1183938]

I have to agree with a previous poster that you are going for a "gotcha" moment and playing the left game that the first person to call the other person racist wins.

Let's pull feelings out of it and look analytically. 13 public high schools in Baltimore (40% of total) did not have a SINGLE student doing math at grade level. 75% of those were scored at not even close to grade level. We can theorize all day long whether that is because of racial, racist, cultural, socioeconomic, or district issues, the bottom line is they will be left behind in a meritocracy. Drawing that conclusion should not be controversial but unfortunately is.

I already responded to the poster I asked and no where did I call them racist. So, have a good day.
And how can you say they will be left behind in a meritocracy so confidently when it doesn’t exist in this country. And when African Students come here they tend to do exceptionally well.

Again, good day.

 

[aneftp]

I'm not trying to confuse you.

The article isn't trying to confuse you either.

No one is out to get you, this is a safe space.

The conclusion of the article is: If you are a white applicant, you are very very unlikely to lose your spot to a black applicant through affirmative action.

If you disagree with that conclusion, then maybe you could provide a source of your own.

I use raw numbers sometimes when I'm describing something and percentages when I'm describing something else. Sometimes raw numbers work better to describe something than percentages, sometimes the opposite is true.

Nope. Read the quote. He’s/she is mixing raw numbers to confuse people for their own agendas

The real conclusion is black Latino applicants percentage wise score lower and still get in at a higher rate than white applicants percentage wise.

We had show previous charts on that as well

The real data is what percentage of those 132 low scoring black Hispanic students who got in out of all Hispanic black students. I can bet u that’s a huge percentage. Like 30% of the total pool of black students and Hispanics.

If 800 slots are reserved for black Hispanics stickers. Those are likely 300 slots who should belong to the More qualified students regardless of race.

 

[deleted1183938]

Nope. Read the quote. He’s/she is mixing raw numbers to confuse people for their own agendas

The real conclusion is black Latino applicants percentage wise score lower and still get in at a higher rate than white applicants percentage wise.

We had show previous charts on that as well

The real data is what percentage of those 132 low scoring black Hispanic students who got in out of all Hispanic black students. I can bet u that’s a huge percentage. Like 30% of the total pool of black students and Hispanics.

So Affirmative action has been around for about 50 years or so, and URMs are not running around in all these schools scoring as poorly as UCLA. So why are are blaming DEI or AA? Why are we not blaming the change in curriculum?
This whole conversation is asinine.

 

[hippieskippy]

I don't know why they didn't score as well nor do I care.

If the majority of physicians are women because they score better and do better, I don't care.

Same if the majority were White/Asian etc.

Best person for the job.

Liberals on the other hand care deeply about the makeup and basically want a quota system when it suits them.

White people always preach meritocracy until Asians start beating them at their own game lol

“He found, in a survey of white California adults, they generally favor admissions policies that place a high priority on high school grade-point averages and standardized test scores. But when these white people are focused on the success of Asian-American students, their views change.”

Source: White definitions of merit and admissions change when they think about Asian Americans, study finds

Also see recent 100% tariffs on electric vehicles coming out of China

 

[ASA6]

There won’t be any data published about what you’re asking because doing so would be considered “racist”. The outcome of such a study “could” undermine the DEI movement. Correspondingly for years, anesthesiologists have called upon the CMS (Ctr. for Medicare Services) to publish data on clinical outcomes between anesthesiologists vs. CRNA’s. To date, CMS has refused to do that. They don’t want to undermine their payment structure or the validity of CRNA-provided care. Do you want to make the claim that CRNA care is superior to anesthesiologist care because CMS refuses to publish the requested study?

We can make the claim that DEI and the high fail rate because the medical school makeup has changed in the last decade. If you dispute that, then present your data.

Wheres your data the makeup has changed? You are the one making the claim that DEI is the issue. Someone else posted in this thread UCLA has higher than average MCAT and GPA scores for matriculants, so doesnt that dispute your point that UCLA has lowered its standards?

 

[rowsdower88]

The real conclusion is black Latino applicants percentage wise score lower and still get in at a higher rate than white applicants percentage wise.

This is true, and I'm saying it doesn't matter. Because if we're talking about the harm done from this pseudo-affirmative action on white students (impact on Asian students is unclear) it is likely very small.

Read the quote. He’s/she is mixing raw numbers to confuse people for their own agendas

I don't know why you're confused. Maybe read what was written again? There are raw numbers and a percentage there. It doesn't make it confusing if you are familiar with statistics. Just having raw numbers and percentages in a sentence doesn't mean someone is deliberately obfuscating information.

 

[ASA6]

College of Medicine's Bridge Program recognized as diverse and inspiring for STEM students

The Florida State University College of Medicine’s Bridge Program has been honored for demonstrating that the school’s mission statement is more than just

news.fsu.edu

The average MCAT score for these students is way below the national average. An Asian or White Male student would stand little chance of acceptance to any medical school with those scores. However, the school is fulfilling its mission and the students are passing their Step exams.

Doesnt your link show that DEI isnt a problem?

"
Bridge has done that remarkably well while producing 110 graduates so far:

• Its retention rate is about 95 percent.
• More than 96 percent of students who entered medical school through Bridge have earned their medical degrees.

"

 

[ASA6]

Its a combination of the one year curriculum and the admissions policy. You need brighter students with exceptional test taking ability along with faculty that can teach all the medical school core basic science material in one year. Instead, UCLA went "all in" with DEI/DIE AND changed the curriculum to 1 year. A really bad combination IMHO. Instead, some of these students who were borderline admissions (I am being very generous here) needed MORE time to assimilate the massive amount of information in a traditional 2 year curriculum. I actually think the DIE candidates/admits would be better served with an additional pre-clinical year (5 year curriculum) to better prepare them for the medical school program.

Again someone else making a claim based on feelings. Where are you facts that the "DEI" students are failing the shelfs and USMLEs at a higher rate?

 

[aneftp]

This is true, and I'm saying it doesn't matter. Because if we're talking about the harm done from this pseudo-affirmative action on white students (impact on Asian students is unclear) it is likely very small.



I don't know why you're confused. Maybe read what was written again? There are raw numbers and a percentage there. It doesn't make it confusing if you are familiar with statistics. Just having raw numbers and percentages in a sentence doesn't mean someone is deliberately obfuscating information.

It’s like the food stamps data. Liberals say more whites get food stamps. (Raw numbers) than blacks

Blacks as a percent of overall minorities get a much higher pecentage of food stamps.

And I can point to the data and spin it around saying blacks as proportion of the entire population get less food stamps.

So what do you want to believe.

Or let’s go to crime data.

Blacks as a percentage of black population (what 30% of males have been in prison?) but I can spin it saying black males as overall population of USA are less likely to end up in prison. But the liberals will never like to say that.

Data manipulated at its best.

 

[ASA6]

Nope. Read the quote. He’s/she is mixing raw numbers to confuse people for their own agendas

The real conclusion is black Latino applicants percentage wise score lower and still get in at a higher rate than white applicants percentage wise.

We had show previous charts on that as well

The real data is what percentage of those 132 low scoring black Hispanic students who got in out of all Hispanic black students. I can bet u that’s a huge percentage. Like 30% of the total pool of black students and Hispanics.

If 800 slots are reserved for black Hispanics stickers. Those are likely 300 slots who should belong to the More qualified students regardless of race.

Looking at the graph the percentage of black Americans actually went down slightly. Hispanics went up by 5%. The biggest change was in the "other" category. This chart also just has percentage of students by race, not their scores. So how do you know their qualified?

And again, there's a 50% fail rate on step 1. How are you arriving at the conclusion that it's the dei students that are failing. Why are you taking about black people when the chart shows by percentage there's less admitted?

 

[deleted1183938]

We all know

It’s like the food stamps data. Liberals say more whites get food stamps. (Raw numbers) than blacks

Blacks as a percent of overall minorities get a much higher pecentage of food stamps.

And I can point to the data and spin it around saying blacks as proportion of the entire population get less food stamps.

So what do you want to believe.

Or let’s go to crime data.

Blacks as a percentage of black population (what 30% of males have been in prison?) but I can spin it saying black males as overall population of USA are less likely to end up in prison. But the liberals will never like to say that.

Data manipulated at its best.

We all know what you want to say. Let’s not forget racist policies that have led to so many black and brown people behind bars.
Unless you also think that Black and Brown people are less intelligent and more violent than white people that is. And Asians, the “model minority”.
Because we all know that Right Wingers love to forget all the socioeconomic factors as well as the racist and capitalistic policies and just throw out numbers. It is amazing that we have such a huge huge percentage of Africans in the continent and walking around free as birds and not being “inherently” more violent.
Amazing isn’t it?

 

[rowsdower88]

It’s like the food stamps data. Liberals say more whites get food stamps. (Raw numbers) than blacks

Blacks as a percent of overall minorities get a much higher pecentage of food stamps.

And I can point to the data and spin it around saying blacks as proportion of the entire population get less food stamps.

So what do you want to believe.

Or let’s go to crime data.

Blacks as a percentage of black population (what 30% of males have been in prison?) but I can spin it saying black males as overall population of USA are less likely to end up in prison. But the liberals will never like to say that.

Data manipulated at its best.

I don't dispute any of those statistics or feel manipulated by them.

The fact that we prioritize some facts over others is fine. It depends on what actually matters. In this case, I think stats about harm matter much more than stats showing MCAT meritocracy isn't occurring.

I'm interested in reducing harms. The fact that white students score higher but get accepted at lower rates than black students doesn't interest me nearly as much as the fact that they actually aren't harmed much by this disparity. (Primarily because so many lower performing white students still get in and there are so few black candidates to begin with.)

If it is the case that Asian students are harmed significantly by affirmative action policies, that would be concerning to me. To my knowledge, the preference that is given to lower performing black and hispanic students across the US isn't significant enough to cause much harm. (I'm extrapolating off of that stat article, a lot could have changed since then and I'm open to being wrong.)

To be honest, I kind of wish other people were MORE interested in the actual harms.

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

I already responded to the poster I asked and no where did I call them racist. So, have a good day.
And how can you say they will be left behind in a meritocracy so confidently when it doesn’t exist in this country. And when African Students come here they tend to do exceptionally well.

Again, good day.

I say so confidently, as a whole, not every specific individual, they will be left behind in a meritocracy because 0% in a very large sample are doing math at grade level. You're not going to be part of the STEM revolution doing math below grade level. Figuring that out isn't rocket science. And yes you were race baiting.

You too do have a most lovely splendid day as well 🙂

 

[pgg]

Also see recent 100% tariffs on electric vehicles coming out of China

Are you suggesting that tariffs on Chinese electric vehicles are motivated by racism?

 

[aneftp]

I don't dispute any of those statistics or feel manipulated by them.

The fact that we prioritize some facts over others is fine. It depends on what actually matters. In this case, I think stats about harm matter much more than stats showing MCAT meritocracy isn't occurring.

I'm interested in reducing harms. The fact that white students score higher but get accepted at lower rates than black students doesn't interest me nearly as much as the fact that they actually aren't harmed much by this disparity. (Primarily because so many lower performing white students still get in and there are so few black candidates to begin with.)

If it is the case that Asian students are harmed significantly by affirmative action policies, that would be concerning to me. To my knowledge, the preference that is given to lower performing black and hispanic students across the US isn't significant enough to cause much harm. (I'm extrapolating off of that stat article, a lot could have changed since then and I'm open to being wrong.)

To be honest, I kind of wish other people were MORE interested in the actual harms.

Like blade said. Create a different pathway for borderline students including an extra year of med school. Some borderline line black , Hispanics and even border Asian and white students should all be in this pathway to have them succeed. Sure. That alternative pathway may consist of 90% URM. But if you want to make sure of the best long term success. Do it the right way.

It’s like borderline students graduating from high school not ready for prime time. I live in Florida. And Florida has different admissions to “accepted” students. Some students are accepted to U of Florida for the fall semester (the traditional method). Some have summer admissions. Some have online admissions first. Some have to go to community college but just about guaranteed admissions to main campus after succeeding.

Med school should help URM who are borderline getting in in with these alt pathways. Not throw them all in with the regular class. And like I said throw in white and Asian borderline students as well. Will those students feel embarrassed? At the end of the day. If they succeed. They get their MD. And no one will care. Right?

 

[rowsdower88]

Like blade said. Create a different pathway for borderline students including an extra year of med school. Some borderline line black , Hispanics and even border Asian and white students should all be in this pathway to have them succeed. Sure. That alternative pathway may consist of 90% URM. But if you want to make sure of the best long term success. Do it the right way.

It’s like borderline students graduating from high school not ready for prime time. I live in Florida. And Florida has different admissions to “accepted” students. Some students are accepted to U of Florida for the fall semester (the traditional method). Some have summer admissions. Some have online admissions first. Some have to go to community college but just about guaranteed admissions to main campus after succeeding.

Med school should help URM who are borderline getting in in with these alt pathways. Not throw them all in with the regular class. And like I said throw in white and Asian borderline students as well. Will those students feel embarrassed? At the end of the day. If they succeed. They get their MD. And no one will care. Right?

I guess? I'm fine with more paths that result in good doctors. But to be clear, it isn't clear at all that affirmative action (or whatever you want to call DEI policies) resulted in UCLA's poor performance. According to other sources, they had one of the highest average MCAT classes in their history. Maybe you could argue that the Asian and white students were pulling up the average, but I haven't seen that data lol. This graph makes me think it's much more likely the change in curriculum timing at fault.

 

[aneftp]

I guess? I'm fine with more paths that result in good doctors. But to be clear, it isn't clear at all that affirmative action (or whatever you want to call DEI policies) resulted in UCLA's poor performance. According to other sources, they had one of the highest average MCAT classes in their history.

View attachment 387207

What is the mcat score broken down by race?

 

[deleted1183938]

More this than third rail.

View attachment 387190

His troubles may be over. Looks like possible splitsville for Bennifer. I have not heard anything nice about her. She sounds like a narcissistic, mean girl.