DEI is ruining UCLA. Seems the DEI pendulum swings too far the wrong way.

[rowsdower88]

What is the mcat score broken down by race?

That information for UCLA specifically isn't available to my knowledge.

It sounds like you want to intuit your way to the conclusion that Asian/White students are bringing up the average MCAT despite lower performing minorities, and now all of the minority students are flunking the clerkship exams. But there's no evidence to support that. Especially when the failure percentages are this high.

If you want to take the Blade approach and say it's multifactorial with this being one of the factors that's a more salvageable position, but there's still very little evidence to support it especially when we can point to the very obvious curriculum change.

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[deleted1183938]

That information for UCLA specifically isn't available to my knowledge.

It sounds like you want to intuit your way to the conclusion that Asian/White students are bringing up the average MCAT despite lower performing minorities, and now all of the minority students are flunking the clerkship exams. But there's no evidence to support that. Especially when the failure percentages are this high.

If you want to take the Blade approach and say it's multifactorial with this being one of the factors that's a more salvageable position, but there's still very little evidence to support it especially when we can point to the very obvious curriculum change.

And this is called a “confounding” variable. In case @aneftp wasn’t aware.
Show us stats that have drastically or significantly dropped in a school that hasn’t had a curriculum change. Then we can actually discuss it.
But don’t try to pin this on minorities and DEI when there is a completely new variable explained by one of the UCLA faculty to be the most likely problem that is obviously being ignored by people who want things to fit their agenda.
Strong work to you BTW.

 

[anonperson]

There have been no racial quotas since 1978. Since '78, universities have been allowed to promote racial diversity as a compelling state interest. But that is, with exceptions, being eliminated with the recent SCOTUS decisions.

No one is advocating for quotas. That's your imagination.

Edit: Well... maybe Ibram X Kendi advocates for them... but I don't think he's a liberal or on this platform.

Yes there are unofficial quotas.

It's not officially codified but it exists.

Why are certain races admitted to medical schools with lower scores across the board?

Schools are able to institute an unofficial quota system in the name of a "well rounded class". (Which is bogus). If there was a true meritocracy, your typical medical school class would have many more Asians and less Black and Hispanics.

Asians (both East and South)are a victim of their own success. They are a true minority based on their overall numbers so deal with typical minority issues like casual racism but then get none of the benefits of other minorities because liberals consider them White adjacent due to them working hard and succeeding regardless of their socio economic situation.

Quite a twisted situation.

 

[deleted1183938]

Yes there are unofficial quotas.

It's not officially codified but it exists.

Why are certain races admitted to medical schools with lower scores across the board?

Schools are able to institute an unofficial quota system in the name of a "well rounded class". (Which is bogus). If there was a true meritocracy, your typical medical school class would have many more Asians and less Black and Hispanics.

Asians (both East and South)are a victim of their own success. They are a true minority based on their overall numbers so deal with typical minority issues like casual racism but then get none of the benefits of other minorities because liberals consider them White adjacent due to them working hard and succeeding regardless of their socio economic situation.

Quite a twisted situation.

Asians do not face near the level of racism and racist policies that Black and Hispanic people do in this country. Hence the “model” minority.
Try again.
No on is denying the racism but it’s on a much lower level overall than the URMs.

 

[rowsdower88]

Why are certain races admitted to medical schools with lower scores across the board?

The common answers given: to redress for past historical injustice (the effects of slavery and Jim Crow), to foster diversity (having different viewpoints and experiences represented makes for better graduates), to address ongoing harms.*

Schools are able to institute an unofficial quota system in the name of a "well rounded class". (Which is bogus). If there was a true meritocracy, your typical medical school class would have many more Asians and less Black and Hispanics.

I acknowledge that if board scores and GPA were the sole metrics, more asian students would be admitted. You can say having a well rounded class is bogus, but there are measurable benefits to having racial diversity if you were at all interested in researching it.

Asians (both East and South)are a victim of their own success. They are a true minority based on their overall numbers so deal with typical minority issues like casual racism but then get none of the benefits of other minorities because liberals consider them White adjacent due to them working hard and succeeding regardless of their socio economic situation.

This gets into the histories of how various immigrant groups got here and how they are doing today. I'm not interested in talking about that. I'll just say that the effects of racism have been and continue to affect the black and native American communities more strongly than Asian communities. This is due to any number of factors. But I'm not going to get into this with you.

* Addressing ongoing harms via a couple main areas that I've only briefly researched. One of which being physician-patient racial concordance and another being physician practice patterns (black docs tend to go to black neighborhoods more often - which tend to be the areas in most need).

Unequal Treatment: Confronting Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Health Care - PubMed

Racial and ethnic disparities in health care are known to reflect access to care and other issues that arise from differing socioeconomic conditions. There is, however, increasing evidence that even after such differences are accounted for, race and ethnicity remain significant predictors of the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This touches on some of them and there is definitely a need for ongoing research.

 

[nimbus]

Like blade said. Create a different pathway for borderline students including an extra year of med school. Some borderline line black , Hispanics and even border Asian and white students should all be in this pathway to have them succeed. Sure. That alternative pathway may consist of 90% URM. But if you want to make sure of the best long term success. Do it the right way.

It’s like borderline students graduating from high school not ready for prime time. I live in Florida. And Florida has different admissions to “accepted” students. Some students are accepted to U of Florida for the fall semester (the traditional method). Some have summer admissions. Some have online admissions first. Some have to go to community college but just about guaranteed admissions to main campus after succeeding.

Med school should help URM who are borderline getting in in with these alt pathways. Not throw them all in with the regular class. And like I said throw in white and Asian borderline students as well. Will those students feel embarrassed? At the end of the day. If they succeed. They get their MD. And no one will care. Right?

USAFA (US Air Force Academy) has a program just like that. One of our perfusionists has a son who went through it, then graduated from USAFA.

Preparatory School

Each year, a select group of young men and women are offered the opportunity to attend the Academy's 10-month Prep School program.

www.usafa.edu

 

[operaman]

I’m no fan of the DEI racket, but I saw a similar thing happen where I trained when the med school there switched to a one year preclinical curriculum, then clerkships in M2 prior to step 1 with additional embedded didactics during clerkships to flesh out what wasn’t well covered in the abbreviated pre clinical year.

Lots of faculty hand wringing about unprepared students, shelf failures, etc., low S1 scores (pre-PF days) and this was before DEI was even a thing. Classes were heavily white and Asian and most of the URMs hand picked first-gen immigrants and
strong grads top undergrads. In fact, part of the solution to the curriculum issue was actually increasing mcat and gpa cutoffs as weaker students obviously struggled the most under the new system. These abbreviated curriculums are basically giving an entire class an extended step 1 review course and then tossing them in to clinical and giving them shelf exams whose passing cutoffs are based on prior students with 2 years of pre clinicals and a scored step 1 they all bled to do well on. Nobody should be surprised by the failure rate early in the transition.

My sense is that much of the ucla problem is the same that many other schools have faced when going to these abbreviated programs. My limited anecdotal experience suggests the strong students still flourished - the home students we matched (about half were URMs actually) tended to be very strong residents and have all gone on to strongly competitive fellowships.

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

Yes there are unofficial quotas.

It's not officially codified but it exists.

Why are certain races admitted to medical schools with lower scores across the board?

Schools are able to institute an unofficial quota system in the name of a "well rounded class". (Which is bogus). If there was a true meritocracy, your typical medical school class would have many more Asians and less Black and Hispanics.

Asians (both East and South)are a victim of their own success. They are a true minority based on their overall numbers so deal with typical minority issues like casual racism but then get none of the benefits of other minorities because liberals consider them White adjacent due to them working hard and succeeding regardless of their socio economic situation.

Quite a twisted situation.

"White Adjacent"
😂😂😂😂😂

Oh my God the Left will come up with the most ridiculous nonsense to push their agendas.

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

being ignored by people who want things to fit their agenda.

You mean exactly like what you're doing as well? 😉

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

Asians do not face near the level of racism and racist policies that Black and Hispanic people do in this country.

So tell us why don't they? It's not racism that explains whatever differences you're talking about it.

 

[aneftp]

That information for UCLA specifically isn't available to my knowledge.

It sounds like you want to intuit your way to the conclusion that Asian/White students are bringing up the average MCAT despite lower performing minorities, and now all of the minority students are flunking the clerkship exams. But there's no evidence to support that. Especially when the failure percentages are this high.

If you want to take the Blade approach and say it's multifactorial with this being one of the factors that's a more salvageable position, but there's still very little evidence to support it especially when we can point to the very obvious curriculum change.

Asians and white students are bringing up up the mcat score average at ucla.

Yes or no? You can deny or semi deny those facts saying ucla hasn’t released that data.

Asians do not face near the level of racism and racist policies that Black and Hispanic people do in this country. Hence the “model” minority.
Try again.
No on is denying the racism but it’s on a much lower level overall than the URMs.

Racism is racism. Asians get discriminated as well. Yet are excluded from almost all DEI initiatives. Female Asians do get some boost from DEI.

I asked my female Asian MIT former colleague and she said if she was Asian male, she wouldn’t be even sure if she would have been even accepted to MIT as undergraduate. Her brother did better than her in sat and number 1 in his class and number 1 tennis player and tons of activities and didn’t get into mit. He got into Columbia and princeton but rejected from mit. She also wasn’t sure if she would have been accepted into a leadership role with almost zero experience as a professional either. She’s a person who understands DEI. Cause she’s now very high up in hiring process at her academic/govt facility.

She says her concerns that her male Asian child will have a harder time getting into programs

 

[rowsdower88]

Asians and white students are bringing up up the mcat score average at ucla.

Yes or no?

Likely yes, but we don't have the evidence to demonstrate it nor should we make any assumptions on how big the marginal difference is at a specific institution. Is it a 2 point difference on the MCAT at UCLA or a 20 point difference? I have no idea, neither do you. You should recognize that that lack of information matters and have some humility. But yes, if we infer from nationwide statistics on racial performance we could make that assumption. Again though, I think it's unreasonable to make the further assumption that the failure of the clerkships is due to pseudo-affirmative action policies for reasons I've previously stated.

 

[ASA6]

"White Adjacent"
😂😂😂😂😂

Oh my God the Left will come up with the most ridiculous nonsense to push their agendas.

Like all the "DEI is the problem" people in this thread, who are ignoring my requests for facts? Plenty of people have blamed black and hispanic people for a rising failure rate on step 1 and shelf's, yet a graph shows enrollment of black students went down and hispanic students went from 15 to 20%.

How is that for using feelings over facts to push an agenda?

 

[BLADEMDA]

Doesnt your link show that DEI isnt a problem?

"
Bridge has done that remarkably well while producing 110 graduates so far:

• Its retention rate is about 95 percent.
• More than 96 percent of students who entered medical school through Bridge have earned their medical degrees.

"

My link was to show these students need that extra year to prepare for Medical School. At UCLA not only didn't the lower scoring students have an extra year like at FSU, they had a year REMOVED from the curriculum. That's a perfect setup for failure. So, maybe if the school is going to admit these types of students, the ones with mcat scores around 500 and a GPA below 3.4, they should start with the extra year as part of the acceptance. That's not racism that is reality.

A lot of posters on SDN forget the goal is to have quality doctors at the end of the day. That means passing scores on the shelf exams and the Step exams.
That's a minimum level of competence not a high level of achievement.

 

[Spikebd]

My link was to show these students need that extra year to prepare for Medical School. At UCLA not only didn't the lower scoring students have an extra year like at FSU, they had a year REMOVED from the curriculum. That's a perfect setup for failure. So, maybe if the school is going to admit these types of students, the ones with mcat scores around 500 and a GPA below 3.4, they should start with the extra year as part of the acceptance. That's not racism that is reality.

A lot of posters on SDN forget the goal is to have quality doctors at the end of the day. That means passing scores on the shelf exams and the Step exams.
That's a minimum level of competence not a high level of achievement.

That’s a large issue here, is that medicine has been watered down to Pass/no pass, because a true competitive environment is “too stressful” and discriminatory. The outcome is that excellence is no longer the ultimate goal, and instead fairness is.

Patient care will 💯 continue to suffer as a result.

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

Like all the "DEI is the problem" people in this thread, who are ignoring my requests for facts? Plenty of people have blamed black and hispanic people for a rising failure rate on step 1 and shelf's, yet a graph shows enrollment of black students went down and hispanic students went from 15 to 20%.

How is that for using feelings over facts to push an agenda?

I was only laughing at the "White Adjacent."
That's hysterical 😂

 

[pgg]

Likely yes, but we don't have the evidence to demonstrate it nor should we make any assumptions on how big the marginal difference is at a specific institution. Is it a 2 point difference on the MCAT at UCLA or a 20 point difference? I have no idea, neither do you. You should recognize that that lack of information matters and have some humility. But yes, if we infer from nationwide statistics on racial performance we could make that assumption.

They have the data. We know they have the data.

If the data could be presented or interpreted in a way that cast a favorable (or at least non-negative) light upon the performance differences between various cohorts of matriculants, it's a certainty on the level of death & taxes that it would have been released. If for no other reason than to triumphantly advertise how successful their policy is.

But the data hasn't been released.

In light of their non-transparency, it seems a fair assumption that the marginal difference between those cohorts isn't small, and that the data would fuel criticism of their policy.

Again though, I think it's unreasonable to make the further assumption that the failure of the clerkships is due to pseudo-affirmative action policies for reasons I've previously stated.

Agreed - we have a simpler and more plausible explanation for the shelf failures: the abbreviated preclinical course work in the new curriculum.

 

[ASA6]

So, maybe if the school is going to admit these types of students, the ones with mcat scores around 500 and a GPA below 3.4, they should start with the extra year as part of the acceptance. That's not racism that is reality.
.

What types of students? How many minority students at UCLA have an mcat of 500 and a gpa below 3.4?

 

[rowsdower88]

They have the data. We know they have the data.

If the data could be presented or interpreted in a way that cast a favorable (or at least non-negative) light upon the performance differences between various cohorts of matriculants, it's a certainty on the level of death & taxes that it would have been released. If for no other reason than to triumphantly advertise how successful their policy is.

But the data hasn't been released.

In light of their non-transparency, it seems a fair assumption that the marginal difference between those cohorts isn't small, and that the data would fuel criticism of their policy.

No. Absolutely not. Even if there was a 2pt gap between Black and Asian matriculants they still wouldn't release it because you would activate the conservative outrage machine again. You presume WAY too much good faith interpretation among people who are critical of AA policies.

Even people here see any statistically significant disparity in test scores as evidence of reverse racism, regardless of the magnitude. There is literally no benefit to UCLA releasing the data you're suggesting. Take two seconds and imagine the Fox News story. If you worked in whatever PR department UCLA has, you're only going to release that info after a court order - EVEN IF you and I (good faith) found it exculpatory.

I would urge you to lower your level of certainty on this to less than "death and taxes".

 

[triggermaster]

No. Absolutely not. Even if there was a 2pt gap between Black and Asian matriculants they still wouldn't release it because you would activate the conservative outrage machine again. You presume WAY too much good faith interpretation among people who are critical of AA policies.

Even people here see any statistically significant disparity in test scores as evidence of reverse racism, regardless of the magnitude. There is literally no benefit to UCLA releasing the data you're suggesting. Take two seconds and imagine the Fox News story. If you worked in whatever PR department UCLA has, you're only going to release that info after a court order - EVEN IF you and I (good faith) found it exculpatory.

But we all know there isn’t a 2 point gap. They aren’t hiding from Fox News. They’re hiding from the courtroom.

 

[pgg]

No. Even if there was a 2pt gap between Black and Asian matriculants they still wouldn't release it because you would activate the conservative outrage machine again. You presume WAY too much good faith interpretation among people who are critical of AA policies.

Even people here see any statistically significant disparity in test scores as evidence of reverse racism, regardless of the magnitude. There is literally no benefit to UCLA releasing the data you're suggesting. Take two seconds and imagine the Fox News story. If you worked in whatever PR department UCLA has, you're only going to release that info after a court order - EVEN IF it's largely favorable if you and I looked at it.

The Fox News outrage machine has been redlining over this subject for years. There's no winning with those clowns and no point pandering to what their goldfish attention spans might fixate on for a 24h news cycle.

I think they would publish the data if it was a statistically insignificant difference. They'd put that p value on the cover of NEJM and write an op ed for the New York Times. They'd shout it from the rooftops. They'd get a slot on The Masked Singer and do an interpretive dance to some Mongolian throat warbling.

 

[rowsdower88]

The Fox News outrage machine has been redlining over this subject for years. There's no winning with those clowns and no point pandering to what their goldfish attention spans might fixate on for a 24h news cycle.

I think they would publish the data if it was a statistically insignificant difference. They'd put that p value on the cover of NEJM and write an op ed for the New York Times. They'd shout it from the rooftops. They'd get a slot on The Masked Singer and do an interpretive dance to some Mongolian throat warbling.

LMAO. No way. Fox News has been redlining it for years wrt nationwide stats and subsequently Harvard and to a lesser extent UNC following the SCOTUS decisions. There is no reason to put a target on UCLA's back by furthering interest in the story.

ANY statistically significant difference is fixated on. Maybe a savvy PR team could publish a paper a couple months out like you're suggesting, but that's a far cry from going on Good Morning America tomorrow.

 

[rowsdower88]

@pgg
This is the available data we have to draw from 2023-2024:

https://www.aamc.org/media/6066/download?attachment

Mean nationwide matriculant MCATs for Asian, Black and White students: 514, 506, 512

The baseline spread of the mean matriculant between these racial groups is 8 points nationwide.

Some schools will have a larger gap, some smaller. UCLA is a PRETTY competitive school with mean acceptance scores of 517 across all races.

Chances are, they will be taking higher caliber students across all races. The chances are unlikely we're talking about a 15 point spread for UCLA. MUCH more likely 5-10 points. If that sounds exculpatory to you, great. But you should at least be able to understand why UCLA would be reluctant to share that for the reasons I've stated.

 

[aneftp]

No. Absolutely not. Even if there was a 2pt gap between Black and Asian matriculants they still wouldn't release it because you would activate the conservative outrage machine again. You presume WAY too much good faith interpretation among people who are critical of AA policies.

Even people here see any statistically significant disparity in test scores as evidence of reverse racism, regardless of the magnitude. There is literally no benefit to UCLA releasing the data you're suggesting. Take two seconds and imagine the Fox News story. If you worked in whatever PR department UCLA has, you're only going to release that info after a court order - EVEN IF you and I (good faith) found it exculpatory.

I would urge you to lower your level of certainty on this to less than "death and taxes".

I urge you to find more diverse set of people to talk to on this topic. I really do not understand how dense you can be to see the world like I have seen in my many decades of life. How the race agenda to keep advancing under qualify students who often struggle to get through courses.

And no. I’m not some ultra conservative right wing human being who watches Fox News. I can’t stand Fox News. I don’t even have cable/youtube tv to even watch. I like to troll a lot to stir up people’s emotions with what I say. I’ve said time and time again. Clinton is my favorite president. I’m anti gun Anti death penalty. I think it’s is a woman’s right to choose. I talk to my diverse set of friends on topics as Israel/hamas/putin. I understand all sides.

It just seems like you are so entrenched in your defense of DEI and fail to see the pitfalls.

Of course they have the data. They won’t release the data. Because it’s serves no purpose other than to stir up the anti DEI groups because the testing grades are significant. Do med school grades matter how good of a doctor you become?

 

[rowsdower88]

It just seems like you are so entrenched in your defense of DEI and fail to see the pitfalls.

I'm "entrenched" because you haven't brought good points to make me consider an alternative. I listed the common reasons given for supporting affirmative action, you didn't reply to that. I'm not sure even why you think my view is "entrenched" when you haven't tried to change it.

 

[aneftp]

@pgg
This is the available data we have to draw from 2023-2024:

https://www.aamc.org/media/6066/download?attachment

Mean nationwide matriculant MCATs for Asian, Black and White students: 514, 506, 512

The baseline spread of the mean matriculant between these racial groups is ONLY 8 points nationwide.

Some schools will have a larger gap, some smaller. UCLA is a PRETTY competitive school with mean acceptance scores of 517 across all races.

Chances are, they will be taking higher caliber students across all races. The chances are unlikely we're talking about a 20 point spread for UCLA. MUCH more likely 5-10 points.

Do you realize a 506
Score is 62% tile for blacks . While a 514 score is a 88% tile for Asians.
That’s a huge difference in scoring. It’s not “just 8 points”. It’s 26% difference

The average gpa entering students is also huge difference between under represented minority and whites/asians.

I really do not understand how you can keep defending this.

 

[rowsdower88]

Do you realize a 506
Score is 62% tile for blacks . While a 514 score is a 88% tile for Asians.
That’s a huge difference in scoring. It’s not “just 8 points”. It’s 26% difference

What you haven't demonstrated is that it is lower scoring black students who are taking the seats of asian students and not other lower scoring white/asian students who are taking their seats.

I'll elaborate: You're showing me that statistic and expecting me to go WOW! that's a big number. I can see the big number. It is very big, very scary. But I'm also going, hey wait a minute... there are still very few black students getting in overall even with that big number. So is it really that scary? Are many asian/white students actually losing their seats to the big scary number? Is it more likely that an asian student would lose a seat to another lower performing asian student or a lower performing black student? Is there a significant HARM being done upon them by the pseudo-affirmative action?

You're focused on the big scary number, I'm more concerned about the harm.

The stats paper I linked earlier went over this concept less sarcastically.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I'm "entrenched" because you haven't brought good points to make me consider an alternative. I listed the common reasons given for supporting affirmative action, you didn't reply to that. I'm not sure even why you think my view is "entrenched" when you haven't tried to change it.

DEI is illegal, immoral and unethical in a meritocracy. Sure, there are a lot of other things which are "unfair" in the USA but DEI ranks pretty high on the list.
In a nation where we espouse "fairness" and progress away from racism, DEI inserts "reverse racism" as part of our system. That's why SCOTUS ruled it unconstitutional. Back in my day, we had "affirmative action" in place. That meant we gave a few extra points to minority candidates so they could gain entry to med school and other instututions. Today, we no longer look at metrics the same way. What matters MOST is race, gender or sexual identity. That is completely wrong and takes affirmative action to another level completely. Rather than move away from race as a metric, we now use race as THE metric.

I will never agree with those on SDN who want to use race as the driving force in our society. SCOTUS has made it very clear than justice is blind and so should be the admissions process (especially in California).

One last thing is I don't choose my physicians based on their race. I am happy to have the BEST of all races take care of my family and me. What I don't want are WORST of all races as my physician.

 

[rowsdower88]

DEI is illegal, immoral and unethical in a meritocracy. Sure, there are a lot of other things which are "unfair" in the USA but DEI ranks pretty high on the list.
In a nation where we espouse "fairness" and progress away from racism, DEI inserts "reverse racism" as part of our system. That's why SCOTUS ruled it unconstitutional. Back in my day, we had "affirmative action" in place. That meant we gave a few extra points to minority candidates so they could gain entry to med school and other instututions. Today, we no longer look at metrics the same way. What matters MOST is race, gender or sexual identity. That is completely wrong and takes affirmative action to another level completely. Rather than move away from race as a metric, we now use race as THE metric.

I will never agree with those on SDN who want to use race as the driving force in our society. SCOTUS has made it very clear than justice is blind and so should be the admissions process in California.

You don't know what DEI is because you're incapable of separating it from affirmative action. DEI departments aren't affirmative action 2.0.

When there exist racial disparities in healthcare outcomes we should use tools that recognize that disparity to fix it unless those tools are patently harmful. DEI departments are not reverse racism.

SCOTUS was wrong in the SFFA cases. I agree with the dissent's opinion.

 

[BLADEMDA]

DEI Has No Place in Medical Schools

Tell Your Legislator to Co-Sponsor & Support the EDUCATE Act

donoharm.quorum.us

DEI Is Poisoning American Medical Training

wenstrup.house.gov

 

[BLADEMDA]

You don't know what DEI is because you're incapable of separating it from affirmative action. DEI departments aren't affirmative action 2.0.

When there exist racial disparities in healthcare outcomes we should use tools that recognize that disparity to fix it unless those tools are patently harmful. DEI departments are not reverse racism.

SCOTUS was wrong to in the SFFA cases. I agree with the dissent's opinion.

Race has no place in our Courtrooms (justice) and no place in our Med Schools either. The best and brightest based on metrics should be admitted and then promoted as warranted. If that means 80% Asian Americans then so be it.

 

[aneftp]

You don't know what DEI is because you're incapable of separating it from affirmative action. DEI departments aren't affirmative action 2.0.

When there exist racial disparities in healthcare outcomes we should use tools that recognize that disparity to fix it.

SCOTUS was wrong to in the SFFA cases. I agree with the dissent's opinion.

How is scotus wrong? AA has barely been saved over the years. Sandra O’Connor barely saved in it 2001? Saying maybe in 25 years we don’t need AA. It’s been almost 25 years since her decision to save AA at that time. Time is up.

So you believe in continuing AA indefinitely even though the “precedent” said to discontinue it 25 years (in 2001). Even scotus questioned how long it should go when they questioned the unc lawyers about how long they think AA should apply

“Discussing its 2003 Grutter decision and its pronouncement then that consideration of race in admissions should end within 25 years, the Court emphasized in its latest decision that “twenty years later, no end is in sight.” Irrespective of what the Court deemed as Harvard's and UNC's “well intentioned” and “good faith”


Now schools have even more incentive to circumvent the Supreme Court decision by using other methods.

“schools that may have once relied on race-conscious admissions policies must now find other ways to pursue their diversity goals.

U.S. Supreme Court Holds Use of Race In Admissions By College, University Is Unconstitutional - Jackson Lewis

The use of race in admissions by Harvard College and the University of North Carolina (UNC) is unconstitutional, the U.S. Supreme Court has held in a decision written by Chief Justice John Roberts. Students for Fair Admissions, Inc. v. President and Fellows of Harvard College (6-2), No. 20-1199...

www.jacksonlewis.com

Notice Stanford says diversity goals That’s where the DEI angle comes into place.

Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard FAQ: Navigating the Evolving Implications of the Court’s Ruling | Stanford Law School

In June 2023, the U.S. Supreme Court struck down race-based affirmative action in college admissions. The landmark ruling in Students for Fair Admissi

law.stanford.edu

 

[rowsdower88]

How is scotus wrong? AA has barely been saved over the years. Sandra O’Connor barely saved in it 2001? Saying maybe in 25 years we don’t need AA. It’s been almost 25 years since her decision to save AA at that time. Time is up.

So you believe in continuing AA indefinitely even though the “precedent” said to discontinue it 25 years (in 2001). Even scotus questioned how long it should go when they questioned the unc lawyers about how long they think AA should apply

“Discussing its 2003 Grutter decision and its pronouncement then that consideration of race in admissions should end within 25 years, the Court emphasized in its latest decision that “twenty years later, no end is in sight.” Irrespective of what the Court deemed as Harvard's and UNC's “well intentioned” and “good faith”


Now schools have even more incentive to circumvent the Supreme Court decision by using other methods.

“schools that may have once relied on race-conscious admissions policies must now find other ways to pursue their diversity goals.

U.S. Supreme Court Holds Use of Race In Admissions By College, University Is Unconstitutional - Jackson Lewis

The use of race in admissions by Harvard College and the University of North Carolina (UNC) is unconstitutional, the U.S. Supreme Court has held in a decision written by Chief Justice John Roberts. Students for Fair Admissions, Inc. v. President and Fellows of Harvard College (6-2), No. 20-1199...

www.jacksonlewis.com

Notice Stanford says diversity goals That’s where the DEI angle comes into place.

Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard FAQ: Navigating the Evolving Implications of the Court’s Ruling | Stanford Law School

In June 2023, the U.S. Supreme Court struck down race-based affirmative action in college admissions. The landmark ruling in Students for Fair Admissi

law.stanford.edu

How was SCOTUS wrong?

Read the Sotomayor and Jackson dissents.

SCOTUS has always been political, Republicans (and insurrectionists in Alito's case) have control currently.

{{meta.fullTitle}}

 

[ASA6]

Race has no place in our Courtrooms (justice) and no place in our Med Schools either. The best and brightest based on metrics should be admitted and then promoted as warranted. If that means 80% Asian Americans then so be it.

And yet, you and the other anti "dei" people in this thread are the ones that brought up race. You are the one who blamed black students for a 50% fail rate on step 1 with no data, and also data showing the number of black students at UCLA has remained unchanged. How is that not bringing race into it, and how is that not racist?

 

[rowsdower88]

Race has no place in our Courtrooms (justice) and no place in our Med Schools either. The best and brightest based on metrics should be admitted and then promoted as warranted. If that means 80% Asian Americans then so be it.

Ok. I'm just going to lay out some of my beliefs since that's what you're doing.

I believe that there exist ongoing racial disparities in healthcare outcomes - particularly staggering disparities for black Americans.

I believe that acknowledging that fact requires diverting special attention at all levels of government to correct it. This means sometimes recognizing the race of Americans for the purpose of correcting the problem.

I believe that every means of correcting the harms that we are inflicting on black Americans through inferior healthcare outcomes should be considered - especially if there is minimal harm/cost to address it.

I believe that there is some evidence that suggests having more good black physicians improves black healthcare outcomes to some extent. (Patient-physician racial concordance studies and black physician practice patterns primarily)

I believe that the harms to other races from the mild affirmative action programs we have/had in place for black students don't cause significant harm to other racial groups.

I believe that anyone who says they oppose affirmative action should recognize that they also oppose a method that can be used to address the black healthcare disparity.

I believe that if we could reliably correct the black healthcare disparity without affirmative action, then we don't need to pursue it for the purpose of correcting the disparity. But that hasn't been demonstrated - and there's no reason to throw away a tool while the problem persists.

 

[aneftp]

How was SCOTUS wrong?

Read the Sotomayor and Jackson dissents.

SCOTUS has always been political, Republicans (and insurrectionists in Alito's case) have control currently.

{{meta.fullTitle}}

If you read ur own link. The main point to ending race base admissions was the universities own doing. Mainly what I stated. That the O’Connor ruling in 2003? States there has to be an end game. They gave universities 25 years for an end game. And it’s been 20 years and the universities offered no end game. Thus it violates the 14th amendment.

Yes, I did read the dissenting opinion. 30 plus pages felt like more rambling "oh this has been "settled law" for 40 years and we should continue with settled law. Yet makes some references to Grutter and completely ignored Oconnor saying in Grutter that people have 25 years to figure this stuff out because it's should be needed in the future. UNC and Harvard officially offered no explanation in their defense how they would end affirmative action. They kept making references to the KKK, and the how UNC enrollment was 8% black and the North Carolina population was 22% black. What I found insulting was the dissenters failed to acknowledge UNC's basketball team (A traditional power house in college basektball part of the "blue bloods" Consistently has 70-80% black student athletes on their team and less than 20% white. Should UNC catere to AA when it comes to basketball outcomes? Have more unqualified white guys playing?

 

[rowsdower88]

If you read ur own link. The main point to ending race base admissions was the universities own doing. Mainly what I stated. That the O’Connor ruling in 2003? States there has to be an end game. They gave universities 25 years for an end game. And it’s been 20 years and the universities offered no end game. Thus it violates the 14th amendment.

Yes, I did read the dissenting opinion. 30 plus pages felt like more rambling "oh this has been "settled law" for 40 years and we should continue with settled law. Yet makes some references to Grutter and completely ignored Oconnor saying in Grutter that people have 25 years to figure this stuff out because it's should be needed in the future. UNC and Harvard officially offered no explanation in their defense how they would end affirmative action. They kept making references to the KKK, and the how UNC enrollment was 8% black and the North Carolina population was 22% black. What I found insulting was the dissenters failed to acknowledge UNC's basketball team (A traditional power house in college basektball part of the "blue bloods" Consistently has 70-80% black student athletes on their team and less than 20% white. Should UNC catere to AA when it comes to basketball outcomes? Have more unqualified white guys playing?

The idea that racism or racial disparities in America operate on a timeline is asinine.

Is there any other problem in America that has been given a timeline to fix or we just give up? Homelessness? Poverty? Drug addiction?

 

[aneftp]

The idea that racism or racial disparities in America operate on a timeline is asinine.

Is there any other problem in America that has been given a timeline to fix or we just give up? Homelessness? Poverty? Drug addiction?

Oconnor was the deciding vote to get rid of Affirmative action in 2003 Grutter case. Even she wanted to get rid of it at that time. This is not something new this current court is deciding. Oconnor gave the affirmative action an out by saying she will support keeping AA but that maybe in 25 years we don't need it anymore.

Like I said time is up. 25 years is a full generation of new people growing up. UNC lawyers couldn't answer that question by the court in 2023. They had no answer what their goal or strategy was to fix it.

You obviously don't offer any ideas either. You just keep suggesting keep admitting under qualfied URM that let them slide in and that they come in small numbers that they don't overall harm others who don't get in.

You talk about black doctors treating black patients and black patients have better treatment. I'll throw you a bone here. Black patients do feel better getting treated by black doctors. 100% agree when it comes to primary care. Guess what? Asian patients feel better when treated by Asian doctors. That's true also. Multiple studies. Especially language barriers. So should we have asian patients seeing only asian doctors? What about white patients? Should they be seen by White doctors? Than we will have segregation all over again.

 

[rowsdower88]

Oconnor was the deciding vote to get rid of Affirmative action in 2003 Grutter case. Even she wanted to get rid of it at that time. This is not something new this current court is deciding. Oconnor gave the affirmative action an out by saying she will support keeping AA but that maybe in 25 years we don't need it anymore.

So? It's still asinine to assign a deadline for racism and O'Connor was dumb for doing it.

Like I said time is up. 25 years is a full generation of new people growing up. UNC lawyers couldn't answer that question by the court in 2023. They had no answer what their goal or strategy was to fix

I guess for you everyone should have gotten their act together and solved racial disparities in those 25 years. Too bad that didn't happen, but the law is the law.

You obviously don't offer any ideas either. You just keep suggesting keep admitting under qualfied URM that let them slide in and that they come in small numbers that they don't overall harm others who don't get in.

Oh, I have plenty of ideas to address racial disparities (#1 study it more), you haven't asked for them. The black students admitted meet the criteria that schools set out. There are many lower performing white students getting in as well, it's wrong to single out black students this way. Instead of saying "under qualified" (they're not, they meet the qualifications of the universities) you can say lower performing.

You talk about black doctors treating black patients and black patients have better treatment. I'll throw you a bone here. Black patients do feel better getting treated by black doctors. 100% agree when it comes to primary care. Guess what? Asian patients feel better when treated by Asian doctors. That's true also. Multiple studies. Especially language barriers. So should we have asian patients seeing only asian doctors? What about white patients? Should they be seen by White doctors? Than we will have segregation all over again.

If asian populations are having healthcare disparities as severe as black populations (they might be and I'm just not aware of them - maybe distinct enclaves are struggling, but overall their healthcare outcomes are similar to white Americans) then of course I would be in favor of policies focused on helping asian patients.

Physician-patient racial concordance isn't obligatory.

 

[rowsdower88]

What I found insulting was the dissenters failed to acknowledge UNC's basketball team (A traditional power house in college basektball part of the "blue bloods" Consistently has 70-80% black student athletes on their team and less than 20% white. Should UNC catere to AA when it comes to basketball outcomes? Have more unqualified white guys playing?

Lmao, I missed this nonsense.

Sure, if there was a significant healthcare disparity affecting millions of Americans that was tied to not having enough white basketball players, then I would be in favor of affirmative action for white college basketball players. I will bite that bullet.

Seriously though, I recognize that affirmative action must serve a purpose. I think it can be justified for black med students for the reasons I've given.

 

[BLADEMDA]

“(U)nder our Constitution, race is irrelevant, as the Court acknowledges. In fact, all racial categories are little more than stereotypes, suggesting that immutable characteristics somehow conclusively determine a person’s ideology, beliefs, and abilities. Of course, that is false,” he wrote.

“Many universities have for too long wrongly concluded that the touchstone of an individual’s identity is not challenges bested, skills built, or lessons learned, but the color of their skin. This Nation’s constitutional history does not tolerate that choice,” Roberts continued.

Conservative Justice Clarence Thomas delivered a concurring opinion to provide an “originalist defense of the colorblind Constitution,” he wrote.

While still acknowledging the presence of racial discrimination, Thomas opined that under the 14th Amendment, the law disregards racial distinctions.

 

[aneftp]

So? It's still asinine to assign a deadline for racism and O'Connor was dumb for doing it.



I guess for you everyone should have gotten their act together and solved racial disparities in those 25 years. Too bad that didn't happen, but the law is the law.



Oh, I have plenty of ideas to address racial disparities (#1 study it more), you haven't asked for them. The black students admitted meet the criteria that schools set out. There are many lower performing white students getting in as well, it's wrong to single out black students this way. Instead of saying "under qualified" (they're not, they meet the qualifications of the universities) you can say lower performing.



If asian populations are having healthcare disparities as severe as black populations (they might be and I'm just not aware of them - maybe distinct enclaves are struggling, but overall their healthcare outcomes are similar to white Americans) then of course I would be in favor of policies focused on helping asian patients.

Physician-patient racial concordance isn't obligatory.

I am very well aware of specific race to race treatment inequities. That’s why I’m telling you have been so focus on black or Hispanic under represented minority doctors. Focus on the bigger picture. Educating all doctors to be well rounded towards all races and even rednecks in Mississippi and the rest of the southern states who tend to have poor healthcare. Mississippi may have the worst healthcare outcome. Black or white. So a city slicker New Yorker doctor won’t know what hit him or her when they come down and practice medicine. Same with my Boston Harvard educated mass gen and Brigham folks who came to Florida. They are saying wtf is going on with Florida medicine practice. And I tend to agree. Florida medicine is as good as northeast or even west coast medicine. This drug rep from Florida paid 100k extra to send his kid to ucla to get medical treatment for a congenital ear ailments.

That other population races also suffer from bad or discriminatory Health care practices including Asians.

Centering Asian American Women’s Health: Prevalence of Health Care Discrimination and Associated Health Outcomes

Asian American women routinely face multiple and intersectional forms of discrimination based on their marginalized social identities, including during their interactions within the US health care system. However, most research on discrimination against ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

“Our findings also highlight significant associations between discrimination in health care and poorer health and functioning outcomes in Asian American women, even after controlling for demographic factors. Generally, Asian American women who experienced discrimination by a provider during their most recent medical appointment were two to four times more likely to have a chronic physical condition, chronic depression, or physical or mental health impairments. As previous research suggests, unfair treatment by providers poses a significant barrier to receiving adequate care [26], which can exacerbate health issues in Asian American women”

Look. Every race is gonna to say they are discriminated.

“

 

[BLADEMDA]

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 provided just such a statutory ground: It forbids any institution receiving federal money from subjecting any person to discrimination based on race. It does not say that such discrimination may be allowed to rectify the effects of past discrimination, or to construct demographically representative student bodies, or to secure educational benefits from racial diversity. It flatly prohibits it.

Justice John Paul Stevens

__________________________

UCLA Med School's admission policies are in violation of State law, Federal law and the 2023 ruling by SCOTUS on the use of affirmative action. Any student who was denied admission due to the policies of UCLA has a right to sue for redress in the courts for discrimination. Asian students are being discriminated against for admission to UCLA med school and they should seek redress in Federal Court. The head of admissions at UCLA should be fired, removed from her positions and the DEI office closed permanently.

 

[rowsdower88]

Educating all doctors to be well rounded towards all races and even rednecks in Mississippi and the rest of the southern states who tend to have poor healthcare.

That's fine. Do affirmative action too as they are both likely beneficial for addressing the problem.

Look. Every race is gonna to say they are discriminated.

True. But what matters are healthcare outcomes. If you're offering solutions you find acceptable to address Asian American women specific problems, go right ahead. Outcomes for black American women are significantly worse than outcomes for Asian American women generally, that's why the focus should be there - not because one racial group is saying they have it bad, but because they measurably have it bad.

If it was the case that having more Asian American women physicians helped address the large healthcare disparity for black Americans, do you know what I'm going to say? We probably need more Asian American women docs.

Unequal Treatment: Confronting Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Health Care - PubMed

Racial and ethnic disparities in health care are known to reflect access to care and other issues that arise from differing socioeconomic conditions. There is, however, increasing evidence that even after such differences are accounted for, race and ethnicity remain significant predictors of the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[BLADEMDA]

The new law bans the use of taxpayer money to fund programs that promote "differential or preferential treatment of individuals, or classifies such individuals on the basis of race, color, sex, national origin, gender identity, or sexual orientation." It also forbids instruction of theories that "systemic racism, sexism, oppression, and privilege are inherent in the institutions of the United States and were created to maintain social, political, and economic inequities."

Florida board bans use of state, federal dollars for DEI programs at state universities

The board that oversees Florida's 12 public universities has voted to ban using state or federal dollars for diversity programs or activities, aligning with a law signed last spring by Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[BLADEMDA]

Elon Musk points out DEI is illegal.

Elon Musk recently stated on X:

“DEI must DIE. The point was to end discrimination, not replace it with different discrimination.

“Diversity, Equity and Inclusion” are propaganda words for racism, sexism and other -isms.

This is just as morally wrong as any other racism and sexism. Changing the target class doesn’t make it right!”

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

I urge you to find more diverse set of people to talk to on this topic. I really do not understand how dense you can be to see the world like I have seen in my many decades of life. How the race agenda to keep advancing under qualify students who often struggle to get through courses.

And no. I’m not some ultra conservative right wing human being who watches Fox News. I can’t stand Fox News. I don’t even have cable/youtube tv to even watch. I like to troll a lot to stir up people’s emotions with what I say. I’ve said time and time again. Clinton is my favorite president. I’m anti gun Anti death penalty. I think it’s is a woman’s right to choose. I talk to my diverse set of friends on topics as Israel/hamas/putin. I understand all sides.

It just seems like you are so entrenched in your defense of DEI and fail to see the pitfalls.

Of course they have the data. They won’t release the data. Because it’s serves no purpose other than to stir up the anti DEI groups because the testing grades are significant. Do med school grades matter how good of a doctor you become?

I don't understand the blind worship of beliefs not backed by any reason or data so all I can do is block that type of closed minded ignorance. It's funny to watch others who try to view all sides run up against the brick wall mentality. Have at it, I gave up long ago lol.

I expect average and below average minds to have dim bulbs, but I don't expect doctor minds to want to believe something so badly that they simply ignore all input to the contrary. If lowering standards for certain groups had no bad effects then why do we have standards for anybody? Admission to med school should simply be a lottery system for all races since the outcomes will be equal no matter what level of student you throw in the recipe.

Keep up the good fight for those of us who just don't have the dna to tolerate ignorant debate.

 

[rowsdower88]

I don't understand the blind worship of beliefs not backed by any reason or data so all I can do is block that type of closed minded ignorance. It's funny to watch others who try to view all sides run up against the brick wall mentality. Have at it, I gave up long ago lol.

I expect average and below average minds to have dim bulbs, but I don't expect doctor minds to want to believe something so badly that they simply ignore all input to the contrary. If lowering standards for certain groups had no bad effects then why do we have standards for anybody? Admission to med school should simply be a lottery system for all races since the outcomes will be equal no matter what level of student you throw in the recipe.

Keep up the good fight for those of us who just don't have the dna to tolerate ignorant debate.

I have provided sources for all of the research that informs my beliefs. I can point you towards them if you have a question. It's your problem if you don't click on them.

You're conflating "lowering standards" with "accepting people with lower scores". Every black person admitted to a medical school in America meets the criteria set by the medical school they attend. (The "standards" aren't being lowered aside from grade inflation generally that affects all students.) In addition, every year far more white students with lower performance scores are admitted than black students with lower performance scores.

I would argue that blind faith in an imagined meritocracy is dim.

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

I really do not understand how you can keep defending this.

Because that is exactly what they do. They decide what they want to believe must therefore be fact, and then bend everything to support that baseless conclusion, as opposed to an analytical approach of viewing all reason and data and then coming to logical conclusions afterwards based on that evidence.

 

[nimbus]

How is scotus wrong? AA has barely been saved over the years. Sandra O’Connor barely saved in it 2001? Saying maybe in 25 years we don’t need AA. It’s been almost 25 years since her decision to save AA at that time. Time is up.

So you believe in continuing AA indefinitely even though the “precedent” said to discontinue it 25 years (in 2001). Even scotus questioned how long it should go when they questioned the unc lawyers about how long they think AA should apply

“Discussing its 2003 Grutter decision and its pronouncement then that consideration of race in admissions should end within 25 years, the Court emphasized in its latest decision that “twenty years later, no end is in sight.” Irrespective of what the Court deemed as Harvard's and UNC's “well intentioned” and “good faith”


Now schools have even more incentive to circumvent the Supreme Court decision by using other methods.

“schools that may have once relied on race-conscious admissions policies must now find other ways to pursue their diversity goals.

U.S. Supreme Court Holds Use of Race In Admissions By College, University Is Unconstitutional - Jackson Lewis

The use of race in admissions by Harvard College and the University of North Carolina (UNC) is unconstitutional, the U.S. Supreme Court has held in a decision written by Chief Justice John Roberts. Students for Fair Admissions, Inc. v. President and Fellows of Harvard College (6-2), No. 20-1199...

www.jacksonlewis.com

Notice Stanford says diversity goals That’s where the DEI angle comes into place.

Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard FAQ: Navigating the Evolving Implications of the Court’s Ruling | Stanford Law School

In June 2023, the U.S. Supreme Court struck down race-based affirmative action in college admissions. The landmark ruling in Students for Fair Admissi

law.stanford.edu

It is ironic that people appeal to SCOTUS to contest discrimination against Asians. SCOTUS is supposed to be the best of the best. Someone should sue SCOTUS for being 0% Asian. If we assume that the USA is a meritocracy, Asians apparently suck at law.