Discrimination against DOs?

[michow87]

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ridiculous thread is ridiculous.

 

[DrWily]

ridiculous thread is ridiculous.

Not as ridiculous as that dog in your avatar!

 

[Ost3oclast]

Fun stuff.... Can't we all just get along? 🙂

Right? Unfortunately at this point I think it is impossible to do so. Some MD's will always dislike DO's, thats how it is. The less people stress out about it, and the more they try to push past stereotypes the best they can, the happier they will be.

 

[michow87]

Not as ridiculous as that dog in your avatar!

Corgis are far from ridiculous. Definitely bottom of the food chain, but not ridiculous.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Not as ridiculous as that dog in your avatar!

Long time Doc, how's school treating you?

 

[Roxas]

Right? Unfortunately at this point I think it is impossible to do so. Some MD's will always dislike DO's, thats how it is. The less people stress out about it, and the more they try to push past stereotypes the best they can, the happier they will be.

Thats too bad, but you're absolutely right. I think the most important thing to remember is regardless of gpa, mcat, degree, your personality (or lack thereof) we all strive to be the best physicians we can be. I haven't applied yet but open to both MD and DO, and I think that your effort in school/residency is far more important than the letters after your name. The discrimination (if any) against DOs is not right, but neither is the alleged MD superiority complex (if any). Lets all just help each other out!

 

[oms2]

Let's not forget the D.O. student who's surgery preceptor was a nurse. A nurse.

student at pnwu in yakima wa which didn't get accredited until this year. crappy deal regardless.

 

[DrWily]

Long time Doc, how's school treating you?

Doing well LPB (can't change your name, you will forever be LPB). Just started second quarter and I did very well first quarter. Always room for improvement, but I'm happy. Settled into a decent study method that i can live with on a daily basis. How's CCOM treating you? 🙂👍

 

[Roxas]

Let's not forget the D.O. student who's surgery preceptor was a nurse. A nurse.

I laughed so hard at this! I had to make it my sig....

 

[DrWily]

I laughed so hard at this! I had to make it my sig....

I don't really understand your sense of humor as it's a really bad situation for that student.

But hey, glad I could make you laugh

 

[Ost3oclast]

student at pnwu in yakima wa which didn't get accredited until this year. crappy deal regardless.

I remember that story. That would suck...

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Doing well LPB (can't change your name, you will forever be LPB). Just started second quarter and I did very well first quarter. Always room for improvement, but I'm happy. Settled into a decent study method that i can live with on a daily basis. How's CCOM treating you? 🙂👍

Haha, I guess the name is forever stuck. It's good to hear first quarter went well! I bet you're nice and warm at AZCOM right now. First quarter started off rocky for me, but ended up pretty strong. It's... too... cold here.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Why should you be? I understand the "D.O. in an MD World" game very well and I intend to play it to the best of my ability.

It is well known that quite a few (not all) D.O. rotations are lackluster. It's very easy to put on rose-colored shades when you have an acceptance to medical school just like all of us did at one point. But the sooner you realize the shortcomings of D.O. training, the better you can work to beat the system. Being proactive in your education will only enhance your future quality as a physician.

Let's not forget the D.O. student who's surgery preceptor was a nurse. A nurse.

DOs are not MD+
D.O.'s aren't anymore special than MDs. We're all physicians.
MCAT >31 is not a shoo-in of anything. Nothing is guaranteed in the application process.

In the future, maybe DOs and MDs would merge, but not in our lifetime.


Edit: I also laff'd at physically carrying patients and cleaning dem "poops."

😀

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[SpecterGT260]

I'm now sure you and Sphinchter are one person behind the screen.

So... no. You don't know what "comply" means 👍

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[DrBumblebee]

So... no. You don't know what "comply" means 👍

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Sphincter, relax!

 

[DrBumblebee]

It is well known that quite a few (not all) D.O. rotations are lackluster. It's very easy to put on rose-colored shades when you have an acceptance to medical school just like all of us did at one point.

You are first year at a DO school, right. I guess excitement about getting matriculated to a medical school faded too fast for you.

But the sooner you realize the shortcomings of D.O. training, the better you can work to beat the system. Being proactive in your education will only enhance your future quality as a physician.

Thank you, sir. As a DO student, how do you recommend me to turn down all of my DO school acceptances and reapply to MD schools next year?

Let's not forget the D.O. student who's surgery preceptor was a nurse. A nurse.

Although, you're a first year DO school student, I'd like to ask where did you hear that? Which school is it?

DOs are not MD+
D.O.'s aren't anymore special than MDs. We're all physicians.

Exactly what I've been saying... If not, I wouldn't have applied to DO schools, at all.

MCAT >31 is not a shoo-in of anything. Nothing is guaranteed in the application process.

Although, the bolded part is absolutely right, I still have the perception that >31 MCAT is a shoo in to MD schools.

In the future, maybe DOs and MDs would merge, but not in our lifetime.

Especially after reading all of the insulting posts here coming from MD residents and attendings, I don't care too much for this any more. Now, I feel for you Dr. Still, rest in peace. I'm so grateful that I was given the chance(s) to study at a medical school in the States. I'm only focused on becoming a great physician at the end that MD or DO letters after my name don't make a difference. I'll be a doctor.🙂

Edit: I also laff'd at physically carrying patients and cleaning dem "poops."

P.S.: I laff'ed at it, too... I even laughed harder to how you follow what MedPRick and Sphincter changed each and every sentence of mine up to their sick and twisted tastes of understanding.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Sphincter, relax!

Your diagnostic skills are astounding, discerning agitatitiitis from an otherwise calm post. How are you not a doctor already? Shouldnt they just see your well roundedness and just give you your MD.DO?

You are deflecting, and failing to answer any question asked of you at this point. That's embarrassing.

 

[SpecterGT260]

You are first year at a DO school, right. I guess excitement about getting matriculated to a medical school faded too fast for you.


Thank you, sir. As a DO student, how do you recommend me to turn down all of my DO school acceptances and reapply to MD schools next year?

No, he is saying illusioned beliefs about the system will only hurt you. You can't overcome an obstacle that you pretend (or convince yourself) isnt there 👍

Although, you're a first year DO school student, I'd like to ask where did you hear that? Which school is it?

And you're a "not any kind" of med student so.... You are rejecting his input on the basis that he hasnt reached a level of something you are even further from? There are psych terms for this sort of behavior.....

Exactly what I've been saying... If not, I wouldn't have applied to DO schools, at all.

Sorry broski. I dont comply with this 😉 You have been saying much more than this. if you hadnt been you wouldnt have had a DO attending, 2 residents, at least 2 DO med students, a number of pre-DOs and myself telling you otherwise. It still isnt too late to back off and admit you over stepped on a couple points. Your stubborn adherence to them just makes you look ignorant. 👍

Although, the bolded part is absolutely right, I still have the perception that >31 MCAT is a shoo in to MD schools.

And some people perceive that aliens will come take them to paradise if they drink the koolaid. On this you are simply wrong. There is no discussion to be had. AMCAS publishes the data on acceptance rate by MCAT and GPA. The acceptance rate is ~70%. Even those in the 40-45MCAT and 3.8+ range still have only about a 95% acceptance rate (yes, padawan, people with 40s DO get rejected from med school. Yes, it is because MD schools look at the whole person and are not just interested in numbers. they have been in this game longer than DO schools have been 👍)

Especially after reading all of the insulting posts here coming from MD residents and attendings, I don't care too much for this any more. Now, I feel for you Dr. Still, rest in peace. I'm so grateful that I was given the chance(s) to study at a medical school in the States. I'm only focused on becoming a great physician at the end that MD or DO letters after my name don't make a difference. I'll be a doctor.🙂


P.S.: I laff'ed at it, too... I even laughed harder to how you follow what MedPRick and Sphincter changed each and every sentence of mine up to their sick and twisted tastes of understanding.

It isnt our understanding that is the problem.........
Anyone want to chime in? What is the technical term for his behavior here? Rejecting each individual dissenting opinion and ridiculing the nay sayers as to protect his ill conceived beliefs? Pop quiz time!

 

[DrBumblebee]

Sphincter, you make me vomit! Too much is really too much... Go get a life, for the sake of everyone.

P.S.: You're in my ignore list from now on. Cannot read that much dump from a sick personality.

 

[QQm]

Although, the bolded part is absolutely right, I still have the perception that >31 MCAT is a shoo in to MD schools.

Aggregation of the 30-45 MCAT students comes out to 69% for 2009-2011. Good, yes; shoo-in, no. Your perception is wrong.

Source: https://www.aamc.org/download/270906/data/table24-mcatgpagridall0911.pdf

You going to turn my name into something juvenile like Sphincter or MedPRick now?

 

[DrWily]

P.S.: I laff'ed at it, too... I even laughed harder to how you follow what MedPRick and Sphincter changed each and every sentence of mine up to their sick and twisted tastes of understanding.

I followed it because it was similar to my own understanding of what you are writing which led to my first comment.

 

[DrBumblebee]

I followed it because it was similar to my own understanding of what you are writing which led to my first comment.

Okay, it seems like we really shared a few moments for the laughs to each other then.

 

[Roxas]

Oh how quickly we forget.... Wasn't there some issue recently where somebody was acting juvenile/name calling on SDN and it totally came back to bite them...? 🙄

Not taking any sides here, but I would hope that some of us on this thread would remember that it's far better for our future acceptances/careers if we just respectfully disagree and move on rather than continue this flame war. The childish name calling in particular gives the rest of us premeds a black eye of sorts...

 

[DrBumblebee]

Oh how quickly we forget.... Wasn't there some issue recently where somebody was acting juvenile/name calling on SDN and it totally came back to bite them...? 🙄

Not taking any sides here, but I would hope that some of us on this thread would remember that it's far better for our future acceptances/careers if we just respectfully disagree and move on rather than continue this flame war. The childish name calling in particular gives the rest of us premeds a black eye of sorts...

No, you certainly take sides here. Keep your flame war to your side.

For your information, below is the first person (a resident) who started the juvenile/name calling thing.. read them from his own post:

You are just a bad poster. A troll, for sure, but even bad at that.

These are DO students, not DO physicians, that I'm talking about. The DO physicians with whom I work (interns/residents) are great for the most part.

I cannot even begin to fathom how poor your reading comprehension is if your above post is in any way an attempt at a serious response. Wow.

For the non-peabrained among us who may be reading Bunglebee's post, I know it's tough to appreciate the long hours you put in during medical school, but trust me, you'll appreciate it when you get to residency and you're actually expected to know how to function as a doctor. And, contrary to what some silly posters might theorize, rounding on patients and writing notes and presenting said patients does not encompass "scutwork." That's "work", in medical school, in residency, and beyond.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Although, you're a first year DO school student, I'd like to ask where did you hear that? Which school is it?

It was here on SDN, posted by an SDN regular about one of his rotation sites. It caused quite the stir on the med students forum. Sadly, it's probably not uncommon in some of the newer, less established schools to have less than stellar rotations.

 

[HalfListic]

One thing I hope happens as we begin to merge DO and MD accreditation is that we can see that generalization about either side is difficult to do.

In fact, its actually pretty tough to generalize about the students at any one school even. Seems like there are enough good students at each med school, DO and MD, as well as those handful who struggle.

There are horror stories on each side and neurosurgeons on each as well.



I guess there is a conversation about DO Discrimination to be had...but its almost like a conversation of agism or sexism...and maybe not even as severe.

In my experience, I haven't met a doctor I liked who was both younger than 60s and prejudiced agains DOs. I think its an old battle, already fought. I think its over...


There will always be neo-nazis but we dont really have to give them any credibility...dont have to defend your position against theirs!


In any case, as long as we make it to and through our training, we'll all be doc's and be working together. We wont really care about SAT scores, MCAT performance or the letters behind out names...we'll just go ahead and save the world together anyways. 😎

 

[MedPR]

You are first year at a DO school, right. I guess excitement about getting matriculated to a medical school faded too fast for you.


Thank you, sir. As a DO student, how do you recommend me to turn down all of my DO school acceptances and reapply to MD schools next year?


Although, you're a first year DO school student, I'd like to ask where did you hear that? Which school is it?


Exactly what I've been saying... If not, I wouldn't have applied to DO schools, at all.


Although, the bolded part is absolutely right, I still have the perception that >31 MCAT is a shoo in to MD schools.


Especially after reading all of the insulting posts here coming from MD residents and attendings, I don't care too much for this any more. Now, I feel for you Dr. Still, rest in peace. I'm so grateful that I was given the chance(s) to study at a medical school in the States. I'm only focused on becoming a great physician at the end that MD or DO letters after my name don't make a difference. I'll be a doctor.🙂


P.S.: I laff'ed at it, too... I even laughed harder to how you follow what MedPRick and Sphincter changed each and every sentence of mine up to their sick and twisted tastes of understanding.

What

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[HalfListic]

What

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...let it go

 

[felix2929]

Corgis are far from ridiculous. Definitely bottom of the food chain, but not ridiculous.

for some reason i thought that was a kangaroo, not a corgi... weird

 

[NontradCA]

Wow this thread got nowhere real fast.

 

[Ost3oclast]

Wow this thread got nowhere real fast.

Yea, it was nice reading all the responses that guy in the article got from MD's telling him not to worry about it an calling the PD a dbag. At least not all allopathic physicians hate DO's!

Other than that, typical MD vs DO thread.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Sphincter, you make me vomit! Too much is really too much... Go get a life, for the sake of everyone.

P.S.: You're in my ignore list from now on. Cannot read that much dump from a sick personality.

Classic denial 👍

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[MedPR]

obligatory inb4

 

[SpecterGT260]

obligatory inb4

that's sick. You have a sick personality. Go take a dump elsewhere. Comply. Represent. east SI-EEEEEEEEEED!

 

[SpecterGT260]

Wow this thread got nowhere real fast.

Yea, it was nice reading all the responses that guy in the article got from MD's telling him not to worry about it an calling the PD a dbag. At least not all allopathic physicians hate DO's!

Other than that, typical MD vs DO thread.

True.

I think these threads have value, the major issue is that some people lash out against information they don't want to hear. That is destructive for a number of reasons, possible the least of which being misinformation spread on the subject. I think PR (PRick? Is that how he is preferring to be called now? As I am sure nobody would result to direct vulgarities who actually had an intelligent point to make... I assume I missed the name change) nailed it on the head when he said understanding the shortcomings in educations - EVERYONE's education - is vital to being able to overcome them. Denial of the shortcomings due to fear and insecurity of some arbitrarily drawn line between professions does nothing helpful. If anything, it alter's people's focus and leads them to make misinformed decisions regarding their application. People listening to bunglebutt stand only to decrease their chances of getting what they want in the end. However people willing to listen to PRick and sphincter (odd combo... but hey the times are a-changin) without reacting emotionally at least stand to make a more informed decision.

 

[felix2929]

I think the threads have value in alerting future DO students to these types of issues they will face. My question though, as a future DO, is, should you find yourself stuck with subpar clinical rotations what can you do to overcome the lack of clinical education you are getting?

 

[SpecterGT260]

I think the threads have value in alerting future DO students to these types of issues they will face. My question though, as a future DO, is, should you find yourself stuck with subpar clinical rotations what can you do to overcome the lack of clinical education you are getting?

I personally have no idea, but that is a PHENOMENAL question. One, I may add, that cannot be asked until people stop outright denying any shortcomings.

 

[Skeeks]

Bro read more than one post before you start spewing bs.

Both MD and DO are interested in well rounded students. MD schools happen to have a larger pool of applicants with high GPAs and high MCATs and can therefore take their pick of these applicants. It doesn't mean they put less value on ECs than DO schools do.

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I apologize if I was misunderstood. I promise I have read the whole thread.

That's actually exactly what I said. My only point was that DOs are generally more willing to supplement higher MCAT and GPAs with life experience. There was no intent to offend. Sorry if I did.

 

[MedPR]

I think the threads have value in alerting future DO students to these types of issues they will face. My question though, as a future DO, is, should you find yourself stuck with subpar clinical rotations what can you do to overcome the lack of clinical education you are getting?

From my second hand understanding of clerkships, you can't do much.

You can talk to the person in charge of that rotation. This person will be affiliated with the hospital, and probably not with your school itself. However, if that person then goes and voices your concerns to your Attending, your Attending might react adversely and give you a less than desirable eval.

 

[Ost3oclast]

True.

I think these threads have value, the major issue is that some people lash out against information they don't want to hear. That is destructive for a number of reasons, possible the least of which being misinformation spread on the subject. I think PR (PRick? Is that how he is preferring to be called now? As I am sure nobody would result to direct vulgarities who actually had an intelligent point to make... I assume I missed the name change) nailed it on the head when he said understanding the shortcomings in educations - EVERYONE's education - is vital to being able to overcome them. Denial of the shortcomings due to fear and insecurity of some arbitrarily drawn line between professions does nothing helpful. If anything, it alter's people's focus and leads them to make misinformed decisions regarding their application. People listening to bunglebutt stand only to decrease their chances of getting what they want in the end. However people willing to listen to PRick and sphincter (odd combo... but hey the times are a-changin) without reacting emotionally at least stand to make a more informed decision.

Hhmmm....never thought of it like that man. Good call.

 

[racerwad]

I think the threads have value in alerting future DO students to these types of issues they will face. My question though, as a future DO, is, should you find yourself stuck with subpar clinical rotations what can you do to overcome the lack of clinical education you are getting?

Unfortunately, very little, beyond being aware that this can happen. DO students should be aware that IM rotations should be inpatient, that wards > clinic, that preceptors should be physicians, etc. If you find yourself on a sub-par rotation, just keep your head down, work hard, and spend the extra time not working on studying. You never know, your attending might be BFFs with the PD of the program you're interested in.

As others have mentioned, until pre-meds start to understand that the clinical experience component of our (osteopathic) training is both the most important and most variable among schools and therefore choose schools accordingly, we're not going to get anywhere in improving the situation.

 

[MedPR]

I apologize if I was misunderstood. I promise I have read the whole thread.

That's actually exactly what I said. My only point was that DOs are generally more willing to supplement higher MCAT and GPAs with life experience. There was no intent to offend. Sorry if I did.

You didn't offend. I was mostly replying to the bold. Out of curiosity, what makes you think that DOs are more willing to take lower scores in exchange for life experience? Is it because DO schools have lower median stats than MD schools?

If so, that's why I (and others) have mentioned that MD schools have higher stats mainly because their pool of applicants has higher stats. They have the luxury of a thousands of well-rounded applicants. Well-rounded meaning high GPAs, high MCATs, and lots of intangibles. Less people apply to DO schools so statistically they can expect a lower number of well-rounded applicants.

 

[felix2929]

Unfortunately, very little, beyond being aware that this can happen. DO students should be aware that IM rotations should be inpatient, that wards > clinic, that preceptors should be physicians, etc. If you find yourself on a sub-par rotation, just keep your head down, work hard, and spend the extra time not working on studying. You never know, your attending might be BFFs with the PD of the program you're interested in.

As others have mentioned, until pre-meds start to understand that the clinical experience component of our (osteopathic) training is both the most important and most variable among schools and therefore choose schools accordingly, we're not going to get anywhere in improving the situation.

I get what you are saying but it is really hard as a pre-med an interviewee to get accurate info on what the clinical rotations will be like, with the exception of maybe the state schools that have their own affiliated hospitals. Most of the schools split up the students and send them to a number of different places and so everyone's experiences vary and the sites can fluxuate from year to year. This has at least been my experience. How did you go about finding out more about clinicals as a pre-med?

 

[MedPR]

I get what you are saying but it is really hard as a pre-med an interviewee to get accurate info on what the clinical rotations will be like, with the exception of maybe the state schools that have their own affiliated hospitals. Most of the schools split up the students and send them to a number of different places and so everyone's experiences vary and the sites can fluxuate from year to year. This has at least been my experience. How did you go about finding out more about clinicals as a pre-med?

School specific threads and M3/M4s on SDN at those schools is what I've been doing.

 

[cliquesh]

I think the threads have value in alerting future DO students to these types of issues they will face. My question though, as a future DO, is, should you find yourself stuck with subpar clinical rotations what can you do to overcome the lack of clinical education you are getting?

Yea, it's not a huge deal. Every DOs clinical experiences are different. I have classmates who have wonderful clerkships and others who didn't learn a thing. So, at worst, your 3rd year is a complete waste. Your 4th year is mostly electives, which you can do anywhere, so those electives should correct for any deficits you may have. Even if they don't it just means your.first few months of internship will suck a little more, but you'll catch up eventually. Your 2 years of clinical experience in medical schoo is like 2 out of 30 years of clinical experiene. In your lifetime. It doesn't really matter.

 

[MedPR]

Yea, it's not a huge deal. Every DOs clinical experiences are different. I have classmates who have wonderful clerkships and others who didn't learn a thing. So, at worst, your 3rd year is a complete waste. Your 4th year is mostly electives, which you can do anywhere, so those electives should correct for any deficits you may have. Even if they don't it just means your.first few months of internship will suck a little more, but you'll catch up eventually. Your 2 years of clinical experience in medical schoo is like 2 out of 30 years of clinical experiene. In your lifetime. It doesn't really matter.

I don't mean to sound argumentative. I just don't know how else to word my question.

Aren't aways/audition rotations pivotal to matching certain places? Don't you think having a solid M3 is important to knowing what you're doing during M4 when you do aways/audition rotations?

 

[SpecterGT260]

I apologize if I was misunderstood. I promise I have read the whole thread.

That's actually exactly what I said. My only point was that DOs are generally more willing to supplement higher MCAT and GPAs with life experience. There was no intent to offend. Sorry if I did.

I disagree. DO schools do in fact want higher GPA and MCAT scores. These scores are correlated (albeit losely) with higher academic success and completion of medical school. <26 there is a fairly linear inverse relationship between MCAT and attrition.

Speaking from personal experience on DO interviews, there were a larger number of people who had more recently come to medicine as opposed to MDs. I personally found a few of these people to be less serious about it. But this is something that is expected with a pool of people with lower average scores. It is more of an artifact of the process than an intentional criterion. If DO schools had as many 30+ applicants in their pool as the MD schools did it would not only be reasonable but expected that averages for matriculation would rise. Again, from personal experience, I straight told 2 DOs at an interview (this was DMU, btw, so, not one of the podunk or new schools) for the "why DO?" question that the only reason to go DO was that there is potential to play into the views of patients to foster primary care relationships as patients tend to incorrectly associate osteopathy with hollisticism. Result? Accepted 👍

The "more willing to compensate" thing is an example of interpretation bias. They are not actively recruiting people who trained abroad as a chef over people who worked as ED techs (there was one of those this DO interview, btw... french chef ~3 months before deciding to apply med schools. Had good grades/mcat but very few clinical ECs, offerent interview, no idea about acceptance). The fact that there are more varied experiences (to a very VERY minor degree....) in DO schools is more of a numbers game given the score range that most DO schools get to pick from. It also comes from the increased level of competition at MD schools where most MD students have lots of various experiences but have so many focused pre-med experiences that these others are not as often discussed.

I am not trying to say that MD students take it more seriously. There are people who by good fortune really do just walk into MD school without really working to understand what they are getting in to. All I am saying is that the explanation you gave isn't exactly accurate. DO schools are trying to fill their seats the best they can with the applicant pool they have just as MD schools are. DO schools put largely equal (as it is variable withing BOTH the DO and MD worlds) emphasis on scores vs ECs. Some schools of each look a little harder at ECs, some schools of each look harder at grades. There is no increase in one vs the other when looking at MD and DO adcoms as a whole.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Yea, it's not a huge deal. Every DOs clinical experiences are different. I have classmates who have wonderful clerkships and others who didn't learn a thing. So, at worst, your 3rd year is a complete waste. Your 4th year is mostly electives, which you can do anywhere, so those electives should correct for any deficits you may have. Even if they don't it just means your.first few months of internship will suck a little more, but you'll catch up eventually. Your 2 years of clinical experience in medical schoo is like 2 out of 30 years of clinical experiene. In your lifetime. It doesn't really matter.

This is true for MD rotations as well. It wasn't intended to be implied that all MD rotations are super educational. Some of them have issues where the residents need more training than the med students so you get left out of some things (bigger issue in the early spring when interns all show up).

I think it is more highly variable in the DO world as a whole with some DO schools having system where it is minor enough to be unnoticed and some having major issues. And I think it is related to not having home hospitals usually.

 

[SLC]

I disagree. DO schools do in fact want higher GPA and MCAT scores. These scores are correlated (albeit losely) with higher academic success and completion of medical school. <26 there is a fairly linear inverse relationship between MCAT and attrition.

Speaking from personal experience on DO interviews, there were a larger number of people who had more recently come to medicine as opposed to MDs. I personally found a few of these people to be less serious about it. But this is something that is expected with a pool of people with lower average scores. It is more of an artifact of the process than an intentional criterion. If DO schools had as many 30+ applicants in their pool as the MD schools did it would not only be reasonable but expected that averages for matriculation would rise. Again, from personal experience, I straight told 2 DOs at an interview (this was DMU, btw, so, not one of the podunk or new schools) for the "why DO?" question that the only reason to go DO was that there is potential to play into the views of patients to foster primary care relationships as patients tend to incorrectly associate osteopathy with hollisticism. Result? Accepted 👍

The "more willing to compensate" thing is an example of interpretation bias. They are not actively recruiting people who trained abroad as a chef over people who worked as ED techs (there was one of those this DO interview, btw... french chef ~3 months before deciding to apply med schools. Had good grades/mcat but very few clinical ECs, offerent interview, no idea about acceptance). The fact that there are more varied experiences (to a very VERY minor degree....) in DO schools is more of a numbers game given the score range that most DO schools get to pick from. It also comes from the increased level of competition at MD schools where most MD students have lots of various experiences but have so many focused pre-med experiences that these others are not as often discussed.

I am not trying to say that MD students take it more seriously. There are people who by good fortune really do just walk into MD school without really working to understand what they are getting in to. All I am saying is that the explanation you gave isn't exactly accurate. DO schools are trying to fill their seats the best they can with the applicant pool they have just as MD schools are. DO schools put largely equal (as it is variable withing BOTH the DO and MD worlds) emphasis on scores vs ECs. Some schools of each look a little harder at ECs, some schools of each look harder at grades. There is no increase in one vs the other when looking at MD and DO adcoms as a whole.

I have to say that I agree with the bolded part. I recollect speaking with an ADCOM at my state MD who told me in no uncertain terms that "all we need is a 3.0 and a good MCAT" after that it's all about extracurriculars. He told me that my application was exactly the type they were looking for. (I was a 3.2, 30 type applicant, with a crap-ton of awesome EC's).

I didn't end up applying since I found a school with a mission that I identify very closely with, which just happened to be a DO program. But I can say with my n=1 that not all MD schools are about MCAT and GPA above all else.

I don't often agree directly with Spectre, I think he/she is a little too eager to put the DO system "in it's place" which is sort of a turnoff. But in this case, I think he/she is on the right track.

 

[Skeeks]

You didn't offend. I was mostly replying to the bold. Out of curiosity, what makes you think that DOs are more willing to take lower scores in exchange for life experience? Is it because DO schools have lower median stats than MD schools?

If so, that's why I (and others) have mentioned that MD schools have higher stats mainly because their pool of applicants has higher stats. They have the luxury of a thousands of well-rounded applicants. Well-rounded meaning high GPAs, high MCATs, and lots of intangibles. Less people apply to DO schools so statistically they can expect a lower number of well-rounded applicants.

Thank you. I appreciate your comments, I was hoping that I didnt come off the wrong way.

The reason I say this is because of experience from attending multiple premed conferences that have hosted both COMs and allopathic schools and talking directly to adcoms as an officer in our school's chapter of AMSA. This last year I attended one that hosted two allopathic schools (U of U and UCF) and three COMs (RVU LECOM and ATSU) where adcoms sat and talked and answered questions about their requirements. The consensus between both disciplines was that while both types of schools are looking for "well rounded" students each school has its own idea as to what a "well rounded" student was. Both the allopathic and osteopathic schools said that MD schools weighted the MCAT and your GPA heavier than COMs. And both agreed that COMs were looking more for life experience and "intangible experience" in their students than allopathic schools. Its just a matter of philosophy really, and there is no real right or wrong about it, it all comes down to the kind of physicians they are trying to train. Since then I have heard numerous confirmations at other conferences and in my own interactions with adcoms as I have worked in my premed group.

Now anyone can take those experiences for what they are, but I tend to take people at face value and personally I believe what they say, after all they are the ones selecting their students for med school and they had no reason to mince words.

With that said to answer your other question about higher stats, its all about who the schools are attracting. Obviously MD schools are generally going to attract the more competitive group of applicants because of their selection criteria. DO schools are going to attract the more nontraditional applicant because of their selection criteria. I think we can all agree that stellar MCAT and GPA do not make a good physician, that goes for both MD and DO students, so just because the stats are different doesnt mean they are left with the bottom of the bucket. Even as far as number of applicants go this last year there were 35,000 MD applicants, but you divide that by the number of MD school and thats about 200-250 applicants per school (individual people will submit more than one application of course thats why there are thousands of applicants per school). Contrast that with a lower 13,500 for DO schools but when you divide that by the 30 DO campuses available and you have ~500 applicants per school so thats a lot more people per slot. Again it all goes back to who the schools are attracting.