Do all DO students graduating 2020 or later need to take USMLE or for competitive?

[68PGunner]

Personally, I think the average DO student will be hurt a little, but not much, by the merger. For example, let's say the average AOA Emergency Med residency has a 530 COMLEX Average (I have no clue what the actual average here, could be way off). With the merger, I'd expect that average COMLEX score to go up due to the new competition from MDs/IMGs applying with good board scores. So, the average DO will have a tougher time matching, but not to the point where it will completely prevent them from matching outside primary care.

The real losers of the Merger, as said above, are the DOs in the near bottom of their class with below average COMLEX scores that wanted to go outside of Primary Care. The merger will make it a lot tougher for them to get that residency. I know of a 4th year who failed COMLEX the first time and still managed to match AOA EM. I can't imagine that happening after the merger.

What's the story on the person that fails COMLEX and still matches to AOA EM?

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[Eagles6389]

What's the story on the person that fails COMLEX and still matches to AOA EM?

Don't know. But it goes to show that there's a lot more to matching than just a three digit board score. Connections, personality, and Letters of Rec. play a very large part as well.

 

[68PGunner]

Don't know. But it goes to show that there's a lot more to matching than just a three digit board score. Connections, personality, and Letters of Rec. play a very large part as well.

Good for him/her.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

It would be a travesty for average DOs to be forced into primary care. I hope that it won't be the case. I doubt that it will be the case though.

Yeah, this is the major thing that bums me out about the merger. The AOA safety net, or not necessarily a safety net, but residency opportunities where DOs don't have to worry about COMLEX vs USMLE is gonna suck not having anymore...

I don't think that by, say, 2021, that ACGME GS programs are gonna suddenly view DOs as equals. I genuinely am unsure of how many doors the merger will open--I know for sure how many will close though!

 

[Doctor_Strange]

As I've said before, this site has a very obtuse perspective on primary care as the 8th circle of hell. Maybe I'm partial or maybe I'm just not so diluted that I would call a 50h/week job that makes over 200k a bad deal.

I think the attitude is grounded in perception and also economics. I am sure it does not feel great working 50h making 200 when your counterpart makes double that as a derm attending or ortho. I've worked with ER docs who say point blank that they chose EM over FM because of the income potential. It's a reality and I totally get it. That shouldn't mean PC is awful, but it is certainly on the short end in terms of payscale. At the same time, I have seen numerous SDN posts in the FM thread of docs making above 200k, and actually on par with some low end specialties (they work a lot though of course).

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

when your counterpart makes double that as a derm attending or ortho.

And ortho guy works a lot more hours. Derm really is an exception with lower hours and high salary, but people always forget how few derm spots there are in the country. I could go to any random MD or DO student and tell them "you will not be a dermatologist" and I would be right 99% of the time

 

[grapefruit17]

I think people are starting to realize how lucrative psychiatry is. In some ways, its similar to derm. I think the Medscape survey recently said the average for psychiatry was 237k which is higher then internal medicine and family. Interesting enough, is the fact that it includes many psychiatrists who only work part time so the number is skewed. The demand is also insane right now, I think it's the highest in demand area of medicine right now. If not the highest, at least top 3. Even with nps trying to do it, the demand still vastly outweighs the supply. Plus, I look forward to working with depressed/psychotic/etc then seeing another diabetic foot ulcer...

I think what stops a lot of people is ego.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

And ortho guy works a lot more hours. Derm really is an exception with lower hours and high salary, but people always forget how few derm spots there are in the country. I could go to any random MD or DO student and tell them "you will not be a dermatologist" and I would be right 99% of the time

Yeah that's also important. Derm is boring as hell so fine by me lol.

And I also believe that surgeons generally should deservedly be paid more than IM or FM colleagues based on the procedural nature of their specialty.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I think people are starting to realize how lucrative psychiatry is. In some ways, its similar to derm. I think the Medscape survey recently said the average for psychiatry was 237k which is higher then internal medicine and family. Interesting enough, is the fact that it includes many psychiatrists who only work part time so the number is skewed. The demand is also insane right now, I think it's the highest in demand area of medicine right now. If not the highest, at least top 3. Even with nps trying to do it, the demand still vastly outweighs the supply. Plus, I look forward to working with depressed/psychotic/etc then seeing another diabetic foot ulcer...

I think what stops a lot of people is ego.

I think psych isn't all that lucratic tbh. In terms of the money you make it's still behind even FM by most surveys. Likewise unlike Dermatology, psychiatry requires a very specific type of person. I think for most people in medicine they'd rather see a diabetic foot ulcer than have to actually talk to a patient.

 

[grapefruit17]

I think psych isn't all that lucratic tbh. In terms of the money you make it's still behind even FM by most surveys. Likewise unlike Dermatology, psychiatry requires a very specific type of person. I think for most people in medicine they'd rather see a diabetic foot ulcer than have to actually talk to a patient.

No, if you look at every survey especially the Medscape physician salary survey, psych is about 30k on average ahead of fm. They also on average work less hours then fm. Psych is ahead of all the primary care areas unless you count ob which of course is higher but more stress/longer hours.

I don't think you've done clinicals yet, so correct me if I'm wrong on that part. But once you start clinicals you may change your views radically on what you'd prefer to see/do. I'd rather talk to "crazy patients" then a lot of sane ones..the sane ones can be some of the more hard ones to deal with. Interestingly enough, people seem motivated to take their psych meds, and less motivated to take metformin. I think most people want to have a normal thought process but the average American is unable to look 15 years down the road and see the possibility of microvascular disease from poor a1c control.

 

[grapefruit17]

Also I realized In clinicals that weight loss was the solution to most of the chronic problems we have in america..approaching this topic with patients was always a nightmare to me. I think a lot of doctors just gave up approaching it and realized they didn't have enough patient care time anyways, and using a pill/tool became an easier substitute. Diabetes, osteoarthritis, sleep apnea, smoking, etc.

 

[hallowmann]

...I don't think you've done clinicals yet, so correct me if I'm wrong on that part. But once you start clinicals you may change your views radically on what you'd prefer to see/do. I'd rather talk to "crazy patients" then a lot of sane ones..the sane ones can be some of the more hard ones to deal with. Interestingly enough, people seem motivated to take their psych meds, and less motivated to take metformin. I think most people want to have a normal thought process but the average American is unable to look 15 years down the road and see the possibility of microvascular disease from poor a1c control.

I kind of get what you mean, but I've met a number of psych patients that think they're "just fine" off their meds or think, "well I'm better now so I don't need to keep taking my meds".

A lot of patients in general are non-compliant. Mostly because they don't understand their conditions, the medications, or worse yet don't care and think they know everything (or "know" they'd rather lose a couple years to xyz lifestyle choice until the time comes and then they realize those extra years are seeing their children get married or meeting their grandchildren). It's kind of a key part of our jobs to explain and make them understand why we make the recommendations we do. We try reasonably well, then leave the choice up to them. Something tells me we're both going to encounter plenty of non-compliant patients this year.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Were you a nurse in a past career? Curious since "clinicals" is nursing terminology...

I say clinicals and I never was a nurse

 

[Staphylococcus Aureus]

@ChiTownBHawks pick your battles. Start with "boards" every healthcare workers take now.

 

[grapefruit17]

Very true, there are def psych patients that are not compliant. Addiction medicine is full of noncompliance. I guess for me I had to choose my brand of non complicance. I felt like I could have more empathy towards the non compliant addict vs the non compliant diabetic so I knew I had to go where my empathy/interest was. I don't want to fall into the trap of apathy, which was easy in medical school.

I'm not sure I understand chis post. No, was never a nurse. But nurses are amazing people. They put up with people who are even more arrogant than me.

Blurring of lines and stuff is beyond me. Not something that interests me too much. Just focused on doing my job and doing what I have to do. Medicine will always change anyways, in different directions.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I actually wasn't asking him/ her it as a question. It was more so to prove a point. Which is the blurring of the lines and bastardization of medicine.

Do you go to provider school as well?

I call it clinical years or rotations too. Clerkships doesn't really roll off the tongue as well.

 

[jw3600]

Very true, there are def psych patients that are not compliant. Addiction medicine is full of noncompliance. I guess for me I had to choose my brand of non complicance. I felt like I could have more empathy towards the non compliant addict vs the non compliant diabetic so I knew I had to go where my empathy/interest was. I don't want to fall into the trap of apathy, which was easy in medical school.

I'm not sure I understand chis post. No, was never a nurse. But nurses are amazing people. They put up with people who are even more arrogant than me.

Blurring of lines and stuff is beyond me. Not something that interests me too much. Just focused on doing my job and doing what I have to do. Medicine will always change anyways, in different directions.

Nursing propaganda should honestly be studied. It is outrageously successful. What. In. The. ****. Could you possibly mean by this? ALL nurses are amazing people? NONE are bad, stupid, or lazy? Generalizing an ENTIRE profession as homogeneously "amazing" is just as stupid and intellectually dishonest as calling all Irish drunks, all Mexicans illegal, all doctors "arrogant" and [insert common stereotype here]. No profession or group is all the same and above critique. I would venture a guess that the distribution of "amazing" people in medicine and nursing follows the exact same curve. One of the few things that boggles my mind. Admittedly, I think part of my annoyance with it is the nursing associations militant attitude towards independence.

 

[grapefruit17]

You just proved my point on how nurses deal with people more arrogant than me.

 

[grapefruit17]

also, dunno what hospital you work at but the one I worked at the nurses were solid, the majority anyways.

"Nursing propaganda". Is there some illumanti organization of nurses?

 

[jw3600]

You just proved my point on how nurses deal with people more arrogant than me.

You making stupid comments does not make me arrogant.

also, dunno what hospital you work at but the one I worked at the nurses were solid, the majority anyways.

"Nursing propaganda". Is there some illumanti organization of nurses?

And I'm sure the doctors where you worked were "solid" too. And there were probably a select few that sucked from each group respectively. Is this really a hard concept for you?

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Were these classes/activities on the academic calendar for the year, or did they come out of nowhere? I'm assuming the mandatory classes are clinical skills related?

Some were on the calendar but they get altered and move so much, you never really know what is going on.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

As I've said before, this site has a very obtuse perspective on primary care as the 8th circle of hell. Maybe I'm partial or maybe I'm just not so diluted that I would call a 50h/week job that makes over 200k a bad deal.

Hmm, FM is down to 8th circle of Hell now. I will add that to my notebook.

 

[LImed19]

Do you think eventually we will see a phasing out of the COMLEX and just adding on an OMM portion to the USMLE?

I don't think so. According to NBOME's last annual report the COMLEX accounted for roughly 70-80% of their revenue. So unfortunately no matter how much the idea of an added OMM portion makes sense, it will never make financial sense to the NBOME.

 

[GEToutLADYits6AM]

Many PDs know that the USMLE is a very well written test, and that the COMLEX is straight garbage.

One reason the PDs have little desire to explore how to evaluate the COMLEX stems from a ubiquitous beliefs that it is just a rediculously ****ty test with little correlation to actual medical knowledge.

And yes, I took both tests, and comfortably passed them both. My impression of the USMLE was a well-written, thought provoking, very difficult exam. In contrast, the COMLEX questions literally would not have been acceptable at the high school level. Srs.

I dont understand why it has to be so difficult to become an DO. Comlex sucks, Majority of DO schools suck(especially carey), have a hard time finding residency in competitive fields etc. Why is it like this smh

 

[Chibucks15]

I dont understand why it has to be so difficult to become an DO. Comlex sucks, Majority of DO schools suck(especially carey), have a hard time finding residency in competitive fields etc. Why is it like this smh

maybe because you become a board-certified physician which still means a whole hell of a lot...

 

[IslandStyle808]

I dont understand why it has to be so difficult to become an DO. Comlex sucks, Majority of DO schools suck(especially carey), have a hard time finding residency in competitive fields etc. Why is it like this smh

Because that is what "separate but equal" really is. You maybe getting the quantity of something (okay not totally true) but quality is difference is heaven and earth. Until we integrate with the LCME it won't matter how many strides DOs take, we could literally be equal in all facets of education, but the letters after our names give us a reason to be discriminated (oh yes, we are not independent applicants anymore, I can use this word).

 

[Peach Newport]

Minneapolis, Kansas City, St. Louis, and a few others I know matched university FM programs. I know another two from last year who matched competitive specialties at KUMC & UMKC with just COMLEX, but I consider those less of my point because I would recommend USMLE if someone wanted to go into them.

But regardless, I have no real need to continue arguing with you. Plenty of people will continue to match relatively well in non-competitive specialties in decent places. And to remind you, the world does exist outside of surgery and more fields than not aren't extremely competitive.

If it’s west of the Hudson River, it’s the boonies.

 

[NurWollen]

Because that is what "separate but equal" really is. You maybe getting the quantity of something (okay not totally true) but quality is difference is heaven and earth. Until we integrate with the LCME it won't matter how many strides DOs take, we could literally be equal in all facets of education, but the letters after our names give us a reason to be discriminated (oh yes, we are not independent applicants anymore, I can use this word).

We're not? I didn't know this. Come to think of it though I don't remember seeing 'independent applicant" anywhere on my application. Not sure if it would have shown up on my view or just the programs' view.



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[NuttyEngDude]

I think if you are going military match/scholarship you can get by with just Comlex (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[IslandStyle808]

We're not? I didn't know this. Come to think of it though I don't remember seeing 'independent applicant" anywhere on my application. Not sure if it would have shown up on my view or just the programs' view.



Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile

Cuz us current medical students are special

 

[sab3156]

As I've said before, this site has a very obtuse perspective on primary care as the 8th circle of hell. Maybe I'm partial or maybe I'm just not so diluted that I would call a 50h/week job that makes over 200k a bad deal.

After the mental, financial, and emotional torment of going to medical school, $200K is not enough. And $200K is also not enough for someone to be forced into something they will probably find dismal and boring. This is why it is a SPECIAL kind of hell for DOs - because sometimes, they simply don't have a choice. That's what's really sad.

 

[deleted831695]

After the mental, financial, and emotional torment of going to medical school, $200K is not enough. And $200K is also not enough for someone to be forced into something they will probably find dismal and boring. This is why it is a SPECIAL kind of hell for DOs - because sometimes, they simply don't have a choice. That's what's really sad.

Idk, having grown up with parents whose combined income was under six figures, anything above 200k (+ income from a spouse) sounds quite all right to me.

There are always ways to make to plenty of money in medicine, in any specialty.

 

[DrMcLovin]

The most unhappy are always the loudest. There are plenty of DO’s that worked hard and got into the specialties they wanted. Quit the “poor is me” narrative of being a DO, its getting ridiculous.

 

[Peach Newport]

After the mental, financial, and emotional torment of going to medical school, $200K is not enough. And $200K is also not enough for someone to be forced into something they will probably find dismal and boring. This is why it is a SPECIAL kind of hell for DOs - because sometimes, they simply don't have a choice. That's what's really sad.

I could see it being sad if you really have your heart set on a certain specialty.

I got into medicine because I knew I’d be happy in pretty much any specialty.

I’m in NYC and the family med attendings I’ve met have been pretty damn happy, and even those with a high debt load say money is not much of an issue. The family med attendings on SDN say the same things.

To me, even the “lowest,” least competitive kind of residency leaves you in a DAMN good position. You have a meaningful job, and it’s a cool job, even if you are “just” in FM. You’re a goddam PHYSICIAN. Your value to society is unquestioned. People respect you and want to date you when they barely know you. And even in desirable areas like NYC, in FM, you’re probably gonna be doing pretty well on an attending salary.

Your career options are still practically endless.

I say this as a high-performing DO who will most likely have some pretty good choices of specialty... and yet the only thing I really see myself doing is general medicine.

My point is, yeah, if your dream is to be an orthopedic surgeon, you’re gonna have a bad time. But if you’re undecided, Medicine is a big place. An average DO still has the opportunity to go into fields like psychiatry, most IM subspecialties, neurology, OB/GYN, Emergency Medicine, PM+R, pediatrics... these are great fields. Don’t get yourself down.

 

[W19]

I call it clinical years or rotations too. Clerkships doesn't really roll off the tongue as well.

Start calling it clerkship then... Nurses are trying to make you adopt their language. I know that since I was one of them 4 years ago. Now looking back, I think it's amazing how nursing instructors brainwash their students. These people are more astute than most MD/DO; they garner sympathy and then they strike...

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

After the mental, financial, and emotional torment of going to medical school, $200K is not enough. And $200K is also not enough for someone to be forced into something they will probably find dismal and boring. This is why it is a SPECIAL kind of hell for DOs - because sometimes, they simply don't have a choice. That's what's really sad.

The UN committee recently sent investigators to look into the plight of osteopathic medical students being forced into primary care. The UN is currently considering sanctions on the US for this horrible ethical violation of human rights.

 

[sab3156]

I could see it being sad if you really have your heart set on a certain specialty.

I got into medicine because I knew I’d be happy in pretty much any specialty.

I’m in NYC and the family med attendings I’ve met have been pretty damn happy, and even those with a high debt load say money is not much of an issue. The family med attendings on SDN say the same things.

To me, even the “lowest,” least competitive kind of residency leaves you in a DAMN good position. You have a meaningful job, and it’s a cool job, even if you are “just” in FM. You’re a goddam PHYSICIAN. Your value to society is unquestioned. People respect you and want to date you when they barely know you. And even in desirable areas like NYC, in FM, you’re probably gonna be doing pretty well on an attending salary.

Your career options are still practically endless.

I say this as a high-performing DO who will most likely have some pretty good choices of specialty... and yet the only thing I really see myself doing is general medicine.

My point is, yeah, if your dream is to be an orthopedic surgeon, you’re gonna have a bad time. But if you’re undecided, Medicine is a big place. An average DO still has the opportunity to go into fields like psychiatry, most IM subspecialties, neurology, OB/GYN, Emergency Medicine, PM+R, pediatrics... these are great fields. Don’t get yourself down.

Of course, I agree with most of what you are saying. I'm not getting myself down, as I worked hard in my field of choice and built connections prior to even starting school, because I knew the limitations of the degree otherwise. I just feel bad for some of my classmates who might be applying to FM and Peds (despite not thinking it's an ideal specialty for them) at community hospitals where they may not be getting the training they deserve, simply due to the fact that they were a bit below average at a DO school and weren't just a bit below average at an MD school. Unfortunately, a lot of my classmates won't have many options come match time.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Of course, I agree with most of what you are saying. I'm not getting myself down, as I worked hard in my field of choice and built connections prior to even starting school, because I knew the limitations of the degree otherwise. I just feel bad for some of my classmates who might be applying to FM and Peds (despite not thinking it's an ideal specialty for them) at community hospitals where they may not be getting the training they deserve, simply due to the fact that they were a bit below average at a DO school and weren't just a bit below average at an MD school. Unfortunately, a lot of my classmates won't have many options come match time.

Come on man, don’t be intentionally obtuse... simply being at a community hospital doesn’t make the training worse, in many fields it’s actually preferable depending on the future practice of the resident.

Edit: also for the record I think you’re being a little melodramatic by making it sound as if any DO that isn’t a top caliber applicant won’t even have options in fields like peds and FM. Very very average and below average DOs will have plenty of good options in those fields. You and I would go, “well if I’m going to do Peds I’m going to do it at CHOP” but most people don’t think like you or I, or have the same career aspirations.

 

[sab3156]

Come on man, don’t be intentionally obtuse... simply being at a community hospital doesn’t make the training worse, in many fields it’s actually preferable depending on the future practice of the resident.

That's not what I said, though. I said community hospitals where they may not be getting good training. Not all community hospitals... English is a pretty inaccurate language, I have realized. In general though, most of the ACGME academic programs in Peds will give you access to far greater research and pathology than at community hospitals. And even then, the point is really about limitations of where you can get in.

Edit: also for the record I think you’re being a little melodramatic by making it sound as if any DO that isn’t a top caliber applicant won’t even have options in fields like peds and FM. Very very average and below average DOs will have plenty of good options in those fields. You and I would go, “well if I’m going to do Peds I’m going to do it at CHOP” but most people don’t think like you or I, or have the same career aspirations.

I'm not saying that at all, I'm just saying the options are more limited for average DO applicants compared to average MD applicants. Barring connections, various Peds hospitals will not touch DOs, even if you are outstanding.

 

[68PGunner]

That's not what I said, though. I said community hospitals where they may not be getting good training. Not all community hospitals... English is a pretty inaccurate language, I have realized. In general though, most of the ACGME academic programs in Peds will give you access to far greater research and pathology than at community hospitals. And even then, the point is really about limitations of where you can get in.



I'm not saying that at all, I'm just saying the options are more limited for average DO applicants compared to average MD applicants. Barring connections, various Peds hospitals will not touch DOs, even if you are outstanding.

This is Peds, not IM or ortho. You need to stop w/ the misinformation.

 

[sab3156]

This is Peds, not IM or ortho. You need to stop w/ the misinformation.

You're missing the point. The point is that doors get closed for DOs, in any specialty, regardless of how strong of applicant you are. A DO applicant has a worse chance at getting in anywhere than the same MD applicant. And yes, there are various Peds programs who will never touch a DO. More than 30% last I saw a couple of years ago either seldom or never ranked DOs. Why is this considered misinformation? Of course DOs match to peds in large numbers, but again, that's not the point.

 

[68PGunner]

You're missing the point. The point is that doors get closed for DOs, in any specialty, regardless of how strong of applicant you are. A DO applicant has a worse chance at getting in anywhere than the same MD applicant. And yes, there are various Peds programs who will never touch a DO. More than 30% last I saw a couple of years ago either seldom or never ranked DOs. Why is this considered misinformation? Of course DOs match to peds in large numbers, but again, that's not the point.

WRONG for Peds.

 

[sab3156]

WRONG for Peds.

You could have done a quick google search.
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf

 

[68PGunner]

You could have done a quick google search.
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf

Thanks for the data. It seems to be on par with other specialties out there. There's a difference between seldom vs never. Whatever dude.

I'm going to say this about Peds. It's not hard to match ACGME Peds unless you're one of those people dead set on matching CHOP Peds or bust.

I know plenty of DO people that match into solid university Peds programs who are just below average to average in term of board scores.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I'm just saying the options are more limited for average DO applicants compared to average MD applicants.

Agree 100%

Barring connections, various Peds hospitals will not touch DOs, even if you are outstanding.

Not really, mostly just CHOP and maybe Boston Children’s

More than 30% last I saw a couple of years ago either seldom or never ranked DOs. Why is this considered misinformation?

Because there is a big difference between seldom and never. This data is always over used honestly because there are lots of extraneous factors, just like the DO charting outcomes. You have to consider that the top programs in any field are just as competitive as anything else and that to get into those programs you have to have a superstar application. Seeing as lots of DOs aren’t going to have the board scores or the research profile these programs are looking for yeah it makes sense that their PDs would mark the box “seldom or never ranked DOs”, and it’s because they rarely see a DO candidate that meets the criteria. DOs have matched at most of the top Peds programs. This same concept happens in the competitive fields as well, they rarely get a DO app that fits their profile so they seldom or never rank DOs because they seldom or rarely see them.

I know plenty of DO people that match into solid university Peds programs who are just below average to average in term of board scores.

Hell its even decently common to have people match university peds with simply an average COMLEX.

 

[sab3156]

I'm going to say this about Peds. It's not hard to match ACGME Peds unless you're one of those people dead set on matching CHOP Peds or bust.

No kidding. The fact remains that a DO with the same application as an MDs is going to have a tougher time, no matter what. I don't know why you're blowing this up. I am sure plenty of DOs have applied to programs among the 30% that typically don't take DOs, and I bet they are hard pressed to interview the DO over an MD with similar stats.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

That's not what I said, though. I said community hospitals where they may not be getting good training. Not all community hospitals... English is a pretty inaccurate language, I have realized. In general though, most of the ACGME academic programs in Peds will give you access to far greater research and pathology than at community hospitals. And even then, the point is really about limitations of where you can get in.



I'm not saying that at all, I'm just saying the options are more limited for average DO applicants compared to average MD applicants. Barring connections, various Peds hospitals will not touch DOs, even if you are outstanding.

Not everyone wants to do research. And some people don't like the idea of being drowned out by millions of other residents, attending, etc that occurs at big university programs. Some people want to have a solid training in their field with plenty of patient contact and while being in an environment or area where they are happy.

Yes, you'll see some really interesting pathology in bigger programs. And if your goal is to work in a bigger setting, that is probably very helpful. If your goal is community hospital, then you'll very easily know when it's time to transfer out a patient to a bigger place.

Regarding Peds. Honestly, plenty of academic centers will take you with just COMLEX. Out of all the specialties it's not picky.

 

[IslandStyle808]

No kidding. The fact remains that a DO with the same application as an MDs is going to have a tougher time, no matter what. I don't know why you're blowing this up. I am sure plenty of DOs have applied to programs among the 30% that typically don't take DOs, and I bet they are hard pressed to interview the DO over an MD with similar stats.

At the top, its down right impossible to not have similar stats to their MD counter parts. I don't believe for a second these places that may have averages of 250, only took the DO because of their 270. Their applications at best were only a smidge better than their MD counterparts and that's it. And yes there are a few top peds programs that have DOs on the roster.

The point being is that what you are stating is a generalization of all fields, that is normally true. However, once you get into specific fields their preference for DOs will vary. For example, virtually every PM&R top program in the country has a DO in its roster. You'd be hard pressed to not find a DO in a university PM&R program. And no, they didn't have special connection to get their either (its not like special connections is a prerequisite in all fields for DO to match to top programs). Did they have to work harder than their MD counter parts? Probably yes, but its not like they had a 15+ point difference in their USMLE scores.

As to why only a seldom amount actually interview DOs could be to various other reasons. One of the big ones is they SELDOM receive applications on the DO side that even garner an interview. This could mean board scores were not up to snuff, or their research background is very poor.


The big take away message is this. DO will have to work overall a lot harder than their MD counter parts for competitive residencies. However, as to why DO are denied from residency programs can be reasons that stem beyond the initial behind our name. This depends on the field you are looking at overall programs may not have had a good impression with our applications through the years and this has stemmed the attitude of not taking DOs period.

 

[MrWonderful]

This thread got derailed, so let me bring it back. When I interviewed, PDs at top psychiatry programs point blank told me they aren't interviewing people w/o USMLE anymore.

One PD put it simply: "I have 6 PGY1 spots and 1,100 applicants. If 200 DO applicants have USMLE and 200 DO applicants do not, to which pile do you think I'm more likely to give the interview?"

Whether or not you agree with it, suck it up and take USMLE.

 

[TeddyBoomBoom]

I went on a fair number of ACGME EM interviews (>10) and I can tell you that my COMLEX scores were brought up exactly zero times.

OTOH, my USMLE improvement (~220 —> ~240) was definitely noticed.

Take the USMLEs.