Do DOs take pride in their identity or not?

[Seth Joo]

I wanted to get some viewpoints on how DOs view themselves. Sometimes it seems some want to hide it, some are ambivalent.... So any opinions would be appreciated.

Where I went the school already realized that most students went to the school as a fallback option to MD, most people were ambivalent about being DOs. There are some schools where they make a big deal about being DOs. That is what sold me about my school.

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[DetectiveAlonzo]

Go MD if you can.

I wish I had even applied to MD programs when I applied, but I am still thankful to be IN a medical program regardless.

However, OPP and OMM is a huge time sink. I don't care for it and probably will never use it.

Also, the fact we have to take 2 boards is bull**** but I'm hoping to merely pass COMLEX while trying to annihilate the USMLE.

Plus, I'll be happy with primary care so I'm good. Just move the meat mane.

 

[lnguyen1412]

Honestly, my goal at first was to apply Md school. But after taking the MCAT, I realize that I'm not at caliber for MD applicants. Time for me to get real and applied to DO and be hapy with it. At least I'll have an opportunity to become a physician, and I'll proud of what I will become, not a title.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

Honestly, my goal at first was to apply Md school. But after taking the MCAT, I realize that I'm not at caliber for MD applicants. Time for me to get real and applied to DO and be hapy with it. At least I'll have an opportunity to become a physician, and I'll proud of what I will become, not a title.

Keep up that attitude man. That's exactly how I was too before I started but goddamn it... I'll keep saying it over and over and over again.

**** OPP and **** OMM.

I really wish I had worked harder in undergrad (as hard as I am working now) so that I could done better and gone to an MD program. It really is worth it to not waste time having to worry about two boards, the merger crap, and OPP/OMM.

 

[mats7]

Y'all should read Stigma: Management of a Spoiled Identity. It uses examples about stigma people face when they belong to racial minorities, prostitutes, and people with non-prestigious upbringings.

 

[NurWollen]

People who post crap like this are obviously fishing for an endorsement to become a D.O physician.

You're a freaking physician either route you go. If that's not something to be proud of, I think I have officially lost all faith in humanity.

Very well said.
Some residencies care if you're a DO. Some won't take DOs.

After residency/fellowship, no one cares. I'm almost halfway through MS4 and I've yet to see any physician care whether their partner was a DO or not. I have never seen a physician question a DO colleague's skills, competence, or physician status based them being a DO.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

The only people who worry about going DO are those who think they don't have the mental capacity to compete well enough to earn their dream jobs as a DO. At my school we have DO Neurosurgeons, Plastic & Reconstructive Surgeons, Dermatologists, Cardiologists, Anesthesiologists, etc. If you have what it takes, then you have nothing to worry about..

 

[doing_all_the_things]

Honestly, my goal at first was to apply Md school. But after taking the MCAT, I realize that I'm not at caliber for MD applicants. Time for me to get real and applied to DO and be hapy with it. At least I'll have an opportunity to become a physician, and I'll proud of what I will become, not a title.

I hate this attitude soooo much and it is one of the reasons some people still view DO's as inferior. People like Inguyen that claim they dont think they're as good as MD students is driving the stigma more than anything else. Do you have any idea how many people got rejected from MD schools and then were accepted in a future cycle? The answer is ALOT. The admissions process is not nearly as focused on MCAT and GPA as people tend to think it is. I will accept that MD schools generally have better career opportunities and clinical rotations but c'mon, cant we evaluate students and schools individually instead of these misleading generalizations?

 

[lnguyen1412]

I hate this attitude soooo much and it is one of the reasons some people still view DO's as inferior. People like Inguyen that claim they dont think they're as good as MD students is driving the stigma more than anything else. Do you have any idea how many people got rejected from MD schools and then were accepted in a future cycle? The answer is ALOT. The admissions process is not nearly as focused on MCAT and GPA as people tend to think it is. I will accept that MD schools generally have better career opportunities and clinical rotations but c'mon, cant we evaluate students and schools individually instead of these misleading generalizations?

Lol. I don't know you hate that so much. It's just me. I think each person is different though. I don't have the luxury and financial resources to go through another cycle, so I have to be realistic with myself. I did not have the grades to get into MD school this cycle, so I decide to apply DO, not as a back up, but because I have realistic chance. If I have financial support, I would probably re-take the MCAT and apply MD. Don't get me wrong.

 

[LUCPM]

In a few years when you have to work 15-16 hours nonstop with maximally distended bladder, two letters behind your name is probably the last thing you will be worrying about.

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[Giovanotto]

Osteopathic medical schools should model what their residencies are now going to be called. Something like this, "DURP medical school w/ an osteopathic focus".

 

[hallowmann]

How is this thread still alive? Of course people are proud to be physicians. Many are also proud to be DOs specifically.

If you didn't get in to a US MD school, the whole conversation is pointless. Either you want to be a physician or you don't. If you want to, DO is the way to go because it's the most likely (after US MD) to guarantee you getting there. Stop comparing yourself to US MDs, unless it's in your practice of medicine. Work hard and be a good physician. Surround yourself with other good physicians (US MD, DO, and IMG).

 

[Mad Jack]

Keep up that attitude man. That's exactly how I was too before I started but goddamn it... I'll keep saying it over and over and over again.

**** OPP and **** OMM.

I really wish I had worked harder in undergrad (as hard as I am working now) so that I could done better and gone to an MD program. It really is worth it to not waste time having to worry about two boards, the merger crap, and OPP/OMM.

I actually enjoy knowing OMM, but wish it had nothing to do with my past grades. I get people asking me all the time to crack their backs and ****, and it's always good to make someone feel better even if it's only a placebo. I still wouldn't have waited the extra year to go MD, even with the hurdles being a DO has given me, cause that lost income yo.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

I actually enjoy knowing OMM, but wish it had nothing to do with my past grades. I get people asking me all the time to crack their backs and ****, and it's always good to make someone feel better even if it's only a placebo. I still wouldn't have waited the extra year to go MD, even with the hurdles being a DO has given me, cause that lost income yo.

That's true bro. Very true. I just wish I worked my ass off in undergrad and applied to MD programs.

I'm doing well in medical school (atleast I think so) and am putting in work. If I had applied this amount of effort in undergrad and to my extracurriculars and MCAT prep..... man. lol

It's whatever though. I don't sweat it cause what's meant to happen will happen. I was too busy trying to be "friends" with people I barely talk to anymore and being a lazy piece of ****.

I know I bitch a lot on these forums but this is my venting time. I'd rather do it online than in person with my annoying ass classmates.

You a real one Jack. Keep it up bruh.

 

[ParallelLines]

That's true bro. Very true. I just wish I worked my ass off in undergrad and applied to MD programs.

I'm doing well in medical school and am putting in work. If I had applied this amount of effort in undergrad and to my extracurriculars and MCAT prep..... man. lol

It's whatever though. I don't sweat it cause what's meant to happen will happen. I was too busy trying to be "friends" with people I barely talk to anymore and chasing punani.

I know I bitch a lot on these forums but this is my venting time. I'd rather do it online than in person with my annoying ass classmates.

You a real one Jack. Keep it up bruh.

Hindsight is 20/20 man. My story is pretty similar to yours. Some ppl mature earlier in life and get their **** together in undergrad. Personally, it took me a bit longer. Ultimately, we will both be docs. Cheers

 

[YayPudding]

Grew up in a medical household where MDs and DOs were viewed as indistinguishable. Only downside is the additional OMT training I guess if one doesn't intend on using it during one's career. I take pride in the fact that the DO is an American institution and signifies one trained in the states and has a little something special in addition to the universal curriculum. Lot to be said for that these days.

 

[deleted731525]

I wanted to get some viewpoints on how DOs view themselves. Sometimes it seems some want to hide it, some are ambivalent.... So any opinions would be appreciated.

Short answer. Some are proud of being DOs and some which they were MDs(either openly or not). Then there are others who have no preference.

 

[Jordan95]

The only people who worry about going DO are those who think they don't have the mental capacity to compete well enough to earn their dream jobs as a DO. At my school we have DO Neurosurgeons, Plastic & Reconstructive Surgeons, Dermatologists, Cardiologists, Anesthesiologists, etc. If you have what it takes, then you have nothing to worry about..

People wou

I actually enjoy knowing OMM, but wish it had nothing to do with my past grades. I get people asking me all the time to crack their backs and ****, and it's always good to make someone feel better even if it's only a placebo. I still wouldn't have waited the extra year to go MD, even with the hurdles being a DO has given me, cause that lost income yo.

Did you graduate already bro?

 

[Mad Jack]

People wou


Did you graduate already bro?

Nah, soonish

 

[doing_all_the_things]

Lol. I don't know you hate that so much. It's just me. I think each person is different though. I don't have the luxury and financial resources to go through another cycle, so I have to be realistic with myself. I did not have the grades to get into MD school this cycle, so I decide to apply DO, not as a back up, but because I have realistic chance. If I have financial support, I would probably re-take the MCAT and apply MD. Don't get me wrong.

My point is that there isnt a hard and fast rule about grades and MCAT at DO and MD schools. They can have averages sure, but an average is not a cut off. If a school has an average GPA of 3.5, it means they've accepted people with greater than or less than a 3.5, not 3.5 and up. The gap between admission statistics between DO and MD is a generalization, but in reality is regionally and school specific. When you self-identify as a MD-wannabe that just wasnt good enough for an MD school, you give residency directors every reason to doubt your credibility, and by default they will doubt mine as well as a fellow DO student. Its hard to argue that DO's are just as good as MDs when people like you state that DO school is for the less academically inclined.

 

[lnguyen1412]

My point is that there isnt a hard and fast rule about grades and MCAT at DO and MD schools. They can have averages sure, but an average is not a cut off. If a school has an average GPA of 3.5, it means they've accepted people with greater than or less than a 3.5, not 3.5 and up. The gap between admission statistics between DO and MD is a generalization, but in reality is regionally and school specific. When you self-identify as a MD-wannabe that just wasnt good enough for an MD school, you give residency directors every reason to doubt your credibility, and by default they will doubt mine as well as a fellow DO student. Its hard to argue that DO's are just as good as MDs when people like you state that DO school is for the less academically inclined.

I'm just stating that my condition did not allow me to apply both MD and DO, so I either have to choose one. And due to my stats at the current application cycle, going with DO will be more favorable to me.
I did not say anything about DO credibility or say that DO school is for the less academically inclined. I'm sorry if I'm not fully conveyed my idea or give you a wrong impression. But I don't think DO are less capable than MD does.

 

[Jinxapotato]

Nah, soonish

Whaaaa I thought you are an adcom at some school ._. Great, I'm seeing things now...

 

[IslandStyle808]

Whaaaa I thought you are an adcom at some school ._. Great, I'm seeing things now...

Guy's an OMS-3, I think he is also a pirate as well. Yeah, studying long hours does that to people.

 

[navigator]

These kinds of threads truly diminish the morale of our profession. No, you won't have a chip on your shoulder if you don't put it there.

 

[ParallelLines]

Most everyone at a DO school (myself included) would have loved to go to an MD school. However, that doesn't mean that I am at all ashamed of my education or degree. DO is a badge of honor, and I intend to represent this profession to the fullest.

 

[dushash]

In a few years when you have to work 15-16 hours nonstop with maximally distended bladder, two letters behind your name is probably the last thing you will be worrying about.

Haha dude, you made my day. But really is it that tough?

 

[MetalloBetalactamase]

how many chapman's points do you fix a day?

 

[LUCPM]

Haha dude, you made my day. But really is it that tough?

Of course, those days are not that common but you will be working too hard for most days to even worry about such nonsense.

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[Alienman52]

From a DO in residency, I would say that I agree with a lot of the sentiments expressed above. I am so proud to have a Medical Degree, though it may not be an MD, per se. It has given me some extra tools in my toolbelt. It made more residency options available to me (though with the merger it may not matter as much). However, I will say that some of the OMM stuff seems a bit like voodoo medicine. I wish we had an option to take our practical for OMM, or not when getting our board certification. And our DO stuff gets a little more difficult too when it comes to things like recertifications every 8 years instead of 10.

wait, DO's have to re-take boards like IM every 8 years instead of 10? Tf?

 

[Dr.Jekyll75]

wait, DO's have to re-take boards like IM every 8 years instead of 10? Tf?

if that the case ACGME merger actually has one positive

 

[IslandStyle808]

if that the case ACGME merger actually has one positive

It has several positives. You won't be treated like an outsider for fellowship matching as before. It raises the floor for standard of training of all AOA programs. You won't have hospitals wondering whether they should take you if you did an AOA residency.

SDN is far too focused on pre-residency matching to truly see all the positives.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

if that the case ACGME merger actually has one positive

I think post residency the merger is actually a huge positive IMO. It's getting to the residency you want that is the negative and is potentially hurt by the merger

 

[hallowmann]

The merger has plenty of positives. People just like to freak out because of "what-ifs" without realizing that what-ifs are already screwing over people now because they have to decide between 2 different matches that in my case divides a lot of my top 5-7 programs (dual-accredited ones that only take DOs in the AOA match and ACGME accredited ones that are only in the NRMP match).

Anyway, I think that reference to recertification has to do with AOBIM boards vs. ABIM boards or with state osteopathic vs. medical board requirements, which vary state to state and likely won't be affected by the merger.

 

[Dr.Jekyll75]

It has several positives. You won't be treated like an outsider for fellowship matching as before. It raises the floor for standard of training of all AOA programs. You won't have hospitals wondering whether they should take you if you did an AOA residency.

SDN is far too focused on pre-residency matching to truly see all the positives.

Thats to be seen, the fellowships are gonna be a tough cookie to crack, consider not too many DOs make it to fellowships. But for the class of 2019 you basically have to go acgme , or youll be sol when 2020 comes around and you are out of a job

 

[68PGunner]

Thats to be seen, the fellowships are gonna be a tough cookie to crack, consider not too many DOs make it to fellowships. But for the class of 2019 you basically have to go acgme , or youll be sol when 2020 comes around and you are out of a job

Back that statement w/ stats. I myself saw the fellowship matching stats between DOs and MDs, for specialties in IM.

 

[67552931811]

Thats to be seen, the fellowships are gonna be a tough cookie to crack, consider not too many DOs make it to fellowships. But for the class of 2019 you basically have to go acgme , or youll be sol when 2020 comes around and you are out of a job

There are tons of fellowships that have more spots than applicants or the ratio is 1.1-1.2:1

Fellowship is about how you performed as a resident, your research, who your PD can call for you, amd if you lack a gag reflex much more than it is where you went to residency at (sans top places that often overlap).

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

There are tons of fellowships that have more spots than applicants or the ratio is 1.1-1.2:1

Fellowship is about how you performed as a resident, your research, who your PD can call for you, amd if you lack a gag reflex much more than it is where you went to residency at (sans top places that often overlap).

Well, I'll agree that his post is completely out of his ass.

However there's no doubt that for competitive fellowships or uncompetitive fellowships at competitive places you're going to want to have gone to a higher ranking residency. The chances of you going from a community IM residency to a cards fellowship or GI fellowship are very low. Though your chances for infectious disease or Nephrology probably are great just coming out of a residency without any major issues. Though obviously ID or Nephrology at JHU or NIH coming out of a community program aren't great either...

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Thats to be seen, the fellowships are gonna be a tough cookie to crack, consider not too many DOs make it to fellowships. But for the class of 2019 you basically have to go acgme , or youll be sol when 2020 comes around and you are out of a job

So basically everything you wrote here is essentially wrong.
For starters you cannot attend an AOA program that will not transition into ACGME after 2017 or so. Those programs have closed the door to taking new applicants as they will no longer be allowed to function in 2020 prior to you finishing your residency.
Secondly plenty of fellowships are very uncompetitive. Not every fellowship is cardiology or GI level competitive. Most generally have applicant to seat ratios very close to 1 to 1. Or in the cases of very uncompetitive fields like child psychiatry, it's nearly .8 to 1.
Likewise if you complete an AOA accredited specialty prior to the deadline or before the program transitions, you're able to get boarded in your field by the AOA, which will continue to exist and offer boards. So no, graduates of AOA residencies aren't going to be out of a job....

 

[68PGunner]

You're sacrificing about 150-160K in lost salary for every extra year of fellowship. There's a reason why fellowships in general are not competitive. Medical students whining about the sky is falling for fellowship application are the same people that make up DOs vs MDs threads when they're premeds.

 

[Dr.Jekyll75]

So basically everything you wrote here is essentially wrong.
For starters you cannot attend an AOA program that will not transition into ACGME after 2017 or so. Those programs have closed the door to taking new applicants as they will no longer be allowed to function in 2020 prior to you finishing your residency.
Secondly plenty of fellowships are very uncompetitive. Not every fellowship is cardiology or GI level competitive. Most generally have applicant to seat ratios very close to 1 to 1. Or in the cases of very uncompetitive fields like child psychiatry, it's nearly .8 to 1.
Likewise if you complete an AOA accredited specialty prior to the deadline or before the program transitions, you're able to get boarded in your field by the AOA, which will continue to exist and offer boards. So no, graduates of AOA residencies aren't going to be out of a job....

not out of my ass just what ive been told from IM docs that tried to get fellowships as DOs . Im more than happy to accept critisim but lets see some proof of this 1:1 or 2:1 ratio. The other point is well taken about post 2017 aoa spots

 

[67552931811]

not out of my ass just what ive been told from IM docs that tried to get fellowships as DOs . Im more than happy to accept critisim but lets see some proof of this 1:1 or 2:1 ratio. The other point is well taken about post 2017 aoa spots

It's like you didn't even try to find out for yourself: http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Results-and-Data-SMS-2016_Final.pdf

Also, my original post concerning ratios wasn't specific to IM.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

not out of my ass just what ive been told from IM docs that tried to get fellowships as DOs . Im more than happy to accept critisim but lets see some proof of this 1:1 or 2:1 ratio. The other point is well taken about post 2017 aoa spots

Even Cardio isn't 2 to 1.

 

[Dr.Jekyll75]

It's like you didn't even try to find out for yourself: http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Results-and-Data-SMS-2016_Final.pdf

Also, my original post concerning ratios wasn't specific to IM.

Even Cardio isn't 2 to 1.

I am pleasantly surprised. I have no problem admitting when i am wrong and its not as bad as it was made out to be by IM docs i worked with. They weren't all cardio Gunners, more GI and pulmonary. But i do see for Interventional Radiology we are on the low end

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I am pleasantly surprised. I have no problem admitting when i am wrong and its not as bad as it was made out to be by IM docs i worked with. They weren't all cardio Gunners, more GI and pulmonary. But i do see for Interventional Radiology we are on the low end

GI is more competitive than Cardio now I think. Pulm/CC is pretty competitive too.

 

[Dr.Jekyll75]

Since you @Drrrrrr. Celty and @ChiTownBHawks are grand master at this let me as you a question ive gotten idk answers to. Community IM or Academic associated IM , does it matter which one you do that puts you in a position for a better fellowship app?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Since you @Drrrrrr. Celty and @ChiTownBHawks are grand master at this let me as you a question ive gotten idk answers to. Community IM or Academic associated IM , does it matter which one you do that puts you in a position for a better fellowship app?

Depends on some factors, connections, and or probably whether the program has an inhouse fellowship that takes their residents. But the general answer is academic/university associated IM is better. But again, if you're gunning for Nephrology or so you probably won't get killed from a community im program.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Since you @Drrrrrr. Celty and @ChiTownBHawks are grand master at this let me as you a question ive gotten idk answers to. Community IM or Academic associated IM , does it matter which one you do that puts you in a position for a better fellowship app?

Academic brah, just look at the fellowship matching it should give your the answer.

 

[Dr.Jekyll75]

Depends on some factors, connections, and or probably whether the program has an inhouse fellowship that takes their residents. But the general answer is academic/university associated IM is better. But again, if you're gunning for Nephrology or so you probably won't get killed from a community im program.

Academic brah, just look at the fellowship matching it should give your the answer.

Im assuming this holds true for obgyn and Rad then too.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Im assuming this holds true for obgyn and Rad then too.

True for all fields.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Academic brah, just look at the fellowship matching it should give your the answer.

I think it probably is worth mentioning that plenty of people will DO fine getting into a fellowship from a non-university or academic program. I think SDN and even i've bought into the inflated ego of a competition that doesn't exist as concretely as much as possibly the people who want regional or specific programs have made it out to be in general.

I think DOs will be totally fine for the majority of residencies and fellowships and probably be happy and well trained in their fields.

I think that is something we shouldn't undervalue or forget..