Do I even have a chance?

[nathanz67]

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[idontknowwhatnametopick]

I am a Psychology major/Chemistry minor at a state university with the hope of going to a top tier medical school. Unfortunately, I, being the careless freshman that I was, decided to slip a little too deep into the social life I had at a former university; this process would go on for a full academic year that was filled with little to no extracurriculars or care for studying for my classes. There I decided to take my 2 Biology courses and 1 of my Chemistry courses, but they were without the labs due to scheduling issues. At this university, my GPA was a 2.1. Now, at the university I transferred to, I have a 3.8 cumulative GPA and have been doing phenomenally on all my courses, including my two Orgo classes. Note, I didn't do so well on my second Chemistry course that I took in the summer, but I needed to take it in order to complete the requirements in time to apply during spring of junior year. So now I have two GPAs, one is a 2.1 from my old university, and the other is a 3.8 at the university I am currently attending. On top of this, I recently started a neuroscience-based online newsletter at my university, decided to start tutoring for Statistics, started to work along side a great professor who is studying MS patients, and shadowed a neurosurgeon. Also used to work about 30 hours a week before I decided to quit to study for the MCAT. But to get to the point, when I figured out my GPA that would be displayed on my AAMC application, it came out to a 3.2 cumulative, but a 2.9 BPCM. This is because I combine my terrible grades at the other university with the one I am in currently and am literally getting boned for my stupidity earlier in my academic career. By the way, this was calculated as if I received an A on every course I take for the next year and a half, which could be possible, but to seem more realistic lets drop those numbers by .2 and say I'll end up having a 3.0 cumulative and a 2.7 BPCM. I have contemplated taking a year off to do research and get some more volunteering after I get my BA and then study or the MCAT my senior spring semester, when my workload is pretty low. I have also contemplated attempting to go for a Post-Bacc program, but if they see that I have taken my Biology, Chem, and Orgo courses already, (I haven't taken my physics i was planning on taking them senior year), then that would make be ineligible to attend a Post-Bacc. But again, I haven't done my labs for the 2 Biology courses or the second Chem course. So in all reality, and I really am sorry for those of you who have read through this entire thing, from one student to another, do I have a chance at any top medical school? If not, what are my best options because I am running out a time and I'm just trying to make sure I don't misstep again!

I'd say don't rush through anything. Don't apply at the end of your junior year with a subpar GPA.
From what I understand based on what I've read on SDN, if you retake the classes you did poorly in (for example at a community college), the new grade and the grade you got in your first attempt will be averaged on AMCAS. If you get all 4.0s, that could raise your GPA by quite a bit. You probably could do that in just a year, and then apply at the end of that year, with your increased GPA.
It doesn't sound like you'd consider DO, but I think DO schools do grade replacement, as opposed to averaging (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), in which case your GPA would go up way more and you'd be in good shape to apply to DO schools.
You'll definitely need a stellar MCAT to make up for the GPA.
I know nothing about post bacc programs and SMPs (I don't know what those even are) so I'll let someone else comment on that.
Also, it sounds like you might need more extra curricular stuff

 

[thebigdawg]

Buy an MSAR subscription and see where you fall compared to other admitted students. For the top 50 schools, the GPA averages are around 3.7 for the lower end up to 3.9 for both cGPA and sGPA.

Options: 1. retake classes / rade replacement / DO
2. Low tier MD (maybe)

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm not saying this to be a jerk, but I'm actually having trouble reading your post because of the poor formatting. Textwalls are really tough on my eyes, and make it difficult to maintain your flow of thought. Split it up into paragraphs and you might get more responses. From a cursory reading, it sounds like a SMP might be up your alley, as well as those schools that reward reinvention.

 

[Glandzburg]

I'm not saying this to be a jerk, but I'm actually having trouble reading your post because of the poor formatting. Textwalls are really tough on my eyes, and make it difficult to maintain your flow of thought. Split it up into paragraphs and you might get more responses.

Great point. Upon seeing the text wall, I immediately thought "there is no chance I'm reading all that."

 

[nathanz67]

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[nathanz67]

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[Glandzburg]

A top tier is going to be nearly impossible with that GPA. Even a low tier MD school is a long shot. The most realistic option is to retake the classes you did poorly in and apply DO.

 

[Mad Jack]

Hope this is better^^

Much.

So there's two types of postbaccs- GPA boosters and career-switchers (postbacc premed). In the former, you take actual medical school courses (or similar to) for a year, while in the latter you take medical school prereqs. I would recommend you do a GPA repair postbacc that demonstrates you are capable of success in medical school level coursework.

Oh, and a top tier is out of the question with your record. Completely impossible.

 

[idontknowwhatnametopick]

Much.

So there's two types of postbaccs- GPA boosters and career-switchers (postbacc premed). In the former, you take actual medical school courses (or similar to) for a year, while in the latter you take medical school prereqs. I would recommend you do a GPA repair postbacc that demonstrates you are capable of success in medical school level coursework.

Oh, and a top tier is out of the question with your record. Completely impossible.

Never say never. Very unlikely though.

 

[JessebenBenjamin]

It will be a long and tough battle to get into any US MD program... let alone a "Top one"
Are you open to DO?

 

[Mad Jack]

Never say never. Very unlikely though.

Short of winning a Nobel Prize or curing cancer, never.

 

[Goro]

As of right now, I agree. But people have had success with even top schools like Duke, UCSF, Case and Columbia after acing both SMP and MCAT.

But agree the fastest path to being a doctor will be via the DO route, after retakes.

A top tier is going to be nearly impossible with that GPA. Even a low tier MD school is a long shot. The most realistic option is to retake the classes you did poorly in and apply DO.

 

[nathanz67]

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[Sardinia]

Wrong. The best option is to open up a Microsoft Word document and scroll over to the font section and pick around 40-50 size font and after selecting this font then proceed to type your first name, press your spacebar key, then type in your last name, spacebar key, and then finalize it with an "MD" at the very end. This way you have self-confirmed yourself as a practicing physician in your own mind in less time than it took for you to make a new account on SDN and decided to "simply give up" within the span of the hour of making the account on the site and receiving feedback from anons.

 

[JessebenBenjamin]

So I guess it's fair to assume I've dug myself in too deep...
I'm not really open to DO programs.
My passion lies in neuroscience, hence the neurosurgeon shadowing.
Honestly, I'm ready to simply give up.
I thought my GPA wouldn't haunt me from when I was at the other university, I mean I have a damn 3.8 now!
This is literally a nightmare...
So am I to understand that either a GPA boosting Post-Bacc or SMP are my best possible options?

You have no other interests in medicine?
Maybe you could do. PhD instead?

 

[Mad Jack]

Wrong. The best option is to open up a Microsoft Word document and scroll over to the font section and pick around 40-50 size font and after selecting this font then proceed to type your first name, press your spacebar key, then type in your last name, spacebar key, and then finalize it with an "MD" at the very end. This way you have self-confirmed yourself as a practicing physician in your own mind in less time than it took for you to make a new account on SDN and decided to "simply give up" within the span of the hour of making the account on the site and receiving feedback from anons.

And an adcom. Totally nothing legit here.

Seriously op, neurosciences and neurosurgery are two entirely different things. You could easily become a neurologist, or an interventional neurologist. Hell, if you really busted your ass, you might be able to become a neurosurgeon from a low-to-mid tier MD program. But neurosurgery is a very small field, so I wouldn't get your hopes up on it even if you did matriculate to an MD school. It's literally one of the smallest fields there is, and most competitive at that.

So here's the real question: do you want to be a neurosurgeon, or do you want to be a physician? Because even if you get into medical school, even an MD school, chances are you would end up failing to become a neurosurgeon. If the answer is, "I want to be in neurosurg," I'd just walk away now and cut your losses, because it is extremely unlikely to happen, particularly with your record. Neurosurgery programs are the most insane programs to apply to- some look as far back as high school, such as Buffalo, and expect perfection across the board. But if you want to be a physician or surgeon, well, that's possible.

 

[Sardinia]

And an adcom. Totally nothing legit here. Seriously op, neurosciences and neurosurgery are two entirely different things. You could easily become a neurologist, or an interventional neurologist. Hell, if you really busted your ass, you might be able to become a neurosurgeon from a low-to-mid tier MD program. But neurosurgery is a very small field, so I wouldn't get your hopes up on it even if you did matriculate to an MD school. It's literally one of the smallest fields there is, and most competitive at that. So here's the real question: do you want to be a neurosurgeon, or do you want to be a physician? Because even if you get into medical school, even an MD school, chances are you would end up failing to become a neurosurgeon. If the answer is, "I want to be in neurosurg," I'd just walk away now and cut your losses, because it is extremely unlikely to happen, particularly with your record. Neurosurgery programs are the most insane programs to apply to- some look as far back as high school, such as Buffalo, and expect perfection across the board. But if you want to be a physician or surgeon, well, that's possible.

SDN should have minimal bearing on the path you plan out to become a physician. The more SDN fluctuates your decision making process, the more holes in your plan you originally had and the greater the need for personal effort to be put in covering the ground work and making cold calls to schools or referring to an MSAR. It's clear that the OP hasn't done his leg work on his own and because of that the fact that he takes SDN so seriously is a sign to me at least that they are putting way too much stock into anonymous comments rather than actually cracking it out themselves which is part of completing the undergraduate process and more importantly a part of maturity. The biggest issue for the OP in question isn't his GPA or raw stats, but rather how he tries to create opportunistic pockets to explain his behavior e.g. new school, 30-hour job which gives off the impression to me that there is less reflection there than warranted when coupled with his insistence to only be an MD. I actually think that it's in the OP's best interest to put medical school on hold. But hey, that's also advice from an anonymous source that thinks he's a little too green to be thinking about making a big investment for the MD initials.

 

[Mad Jack]

SDN should have minimal bearing on the path you plan out to become a physician. The more SDN fluctuates your decision making process, the more holes in your plan you originally had and the greater the need for personal effort to be put in covering the ground work and making cold calls to schools or referring to an MSAR. It's clear that the OP hasn't done his leg work on his own and because of that the fact that he takes SDN so seriously is a sign to me at least that they are putting way too much stock into anonymous comments rather than actually cracking it out themselves which is part of completing the undergraduate process and more importantly a part of maturity. The biggest issue for the OP in question isn't his GPA or raw stats, but rather how he tries to create opportunistic pockets to explain his behavior e.g. new school, 30-hour job which gives off the impression to me that there is less reflection there than warranted when coupled with his insistence to only be an MD. I actually think that it's in the OP's best interest to put medical school on hold. But hey, that's also advice from an anonymous source that thinks he's a little too green to be thinking about making a big investment for the MD initials.

Hey, I'm just a guy who's halfway through medical school, with concurrences from an adcom and another student who's been through the process. But what do we know, really. We just interview medical students for admission, have successfully completed the process, and actually understand what's going on because we both participate in the process and have studied it thoroughly so that we might provide assistance to others.

Nah, he's probably best floundering on his own, experience and knowledge are meaningless things, after all.

 

[Sardinia]

Hey, I'm just a guy who's halfway through medical school, with concurrences from an adcom and another student who's been through the process. But what do we know, really. We just interview medical students for admission, have successfully completed the process, and actually understand what's going on because we both participate in the process and have studied it thoroughly so that we might provide assistance to others.

And yet you're still an anonymous source of information.

 

[nathanz67]

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[nathanz67]

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[Mad Jack]

And yet you're still an anonymous source of information.

Anonymous =/= useless or discredited

Goro, for instance, is anonymous but is verified faculty. Many of the people here are verified physicians, faculty, and adcoms. Many of those that aren't are only anonymous publicly to protect ourselves, but are well-known personally by other members and/or administrators of the forums. So don't sell SDN short, because you'd be shocked if you knew who everyone here was behind the scenes- you're getting the sort of advice people pay money for for free much of the time, and you have no ****ing clue.

 

[Mad Jack]

I got to say, you're probably right, I have been leaning towards being a neurologist/interventional neurologist because of this fact. And I'd rather not pursue a PhD because, while research can be fun, it doesn't have that same 'human' factor that a physician gets to have around him.
I mean, if I get superb grades at a SMP like Georgetown that would follow getting an early (this coming fall) BA,
and really stepping up with the NYU CNS SURP over the summer and volunteering at CUMC until I get into the SMP,
as well as more shadowing here and there at CUMC
and maybe a research publication with my professor who I am currently working with (he's new and we've bonded so it seems very likely),
and using that senior spring semester for studying for the MCATs instead and getting >510,
wouldn't that be enough to get me into a top tier medical school?

A high MCAT and a research pub is not enough to get you into a top school with your GPA being the way it is. You need to understand that you are largely up against perfect applicants at that tier. We're talking people that have multiple pubs, 95%+ MCATs, no red flags ever, fantastic ECs, etc. Feel free to apply, but your chances are reasonable at a low-to-mid tier MD, and damn near impossible at a top school. The good news is, neurology is a very doable field for a US MD or even DO from literally any school, even at most of the better academic programs, so you could set yourself up for interventional neurology no matter what US school you go to. Good luck.

 

[nathanz67]

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[Sardinia]

I'm an anonymous source of discreditable information.

 

[Mad Jack]

Thank you very much for the input!

I would also encourage you to look at the underdog threads here- there's a lot to be learned as to what has worked and hasn't worked in the past. Another good thread to check out is the "Schools that Reward Reinvention" thread or something similar. You can become a physician if you are willing to work hard, just be smart about it and do your research.

 

[Sardinia]

Anonymous =/= useless or discredited

Goro, for instance, is anonymous but is verified faculty. Many of the people here are verified physicians, faculty, and adcoms. Many of those that aren't are only anonymous publicly to protect ourselves, but are well-known personally by other members and/or administrators of the forums. So don't sell SDN short, because you'd be shocked if you knew who everyone here was behind the scenes- you're getting the sort of advice people pay money for for free much of the time, and you have no ****ing clue.

I never stated that any particular post was useless or to be discredited. I stated that people before applying should have a plan before applying into medical school and SDN shouldn't fluctuate that plan. If it does then it's a sign that the plan the candidate is using was not carefully considered and leg work needs to be undertaken. Goro is a useful resource of information, however emailing the admissions coordinator for the program I am specifically interested in is way more high yield and effective in having me make decisions into the program.

 

[Glandzburg]

SDN should have minimal bearing on the path you plan out to become a physician. The more SDN fluctuates your decision making process, the more holes in your plan you originally had and the greater the need for personal effort to be put in covering the ground work and making cold calls to schools or referring to an MSAR. It's clear that the OP hasn't done his leg work on his own and because of that the fact that he takes SDN so seriously is a sign to me at least that they are putting way too much stock into anonymous comments rather than actually cracking it out themselves which is part of completing the undergraduate process and more importantly a part of maturity. The biggest issue for the OP in question isn't his GPA or raw stats, but rather how he tries to create opportunistic pockets to explain his behavior e.g. new school, 30-hour job which gives off the impression to me that there is less reflection there than warranted when coupled with his insistence to only be an MD. I actually think that it's in the OP's best interest to put medical school on hold. But hey, that's also advice from an anonymous source that thinks he's a little too green to be thinking about making a big investment for the MD initials.

 

[Sardinia]

@Glandzburg

True.

 

[Mad Jack]

I never stated that any particular post was useless or to be discredited. I stated that people before applying should have a plan before applying into medical school and SDN shouldn't fluctuate that plan. If it does then it's a sign that the plan the candidate is using was not carefully considered and leg work needs to be undertaken. Goro is a useful resource of information, however emailing the admissions coordinator for the program I am specifically interested in is way more high yield and effective in having me make decisions into the program.

Except it isn't, because often programs coordinators and staff have an agenda. The same sorts of things go on in the residency application world- every plan insists they'll rank you highly and pats you on the back, gives you some cookies and flashes their smiles, but at the end of the day, SDN members'll tell you if it's just an act they feed everyone or the real deal (not that it should matter, always rank your highest first lol).

If it weren't for SDN, I'd have had no ****ing clue how to get into medical school. My advisors were less than useless, the premedical admissions committee served as nothing but a stumbling block, and the rest of the internet was... Well, you know the internet. Coming to SDN to bounce ideas off of them is both a way to gain knowledge and an exercise in self-reflection, as the way you walk away from each conversation is largely shaped by your own feelings and thoughts on a subject, often those which you aren't willing to admit to yourself. SDN, as I've always said, is a mirror.

 

[mode7scaling]

look at it this way. you're not the first student going this direction with your historical background. there have been others who have grown up and matured or handled life better as they got older and circumstances improved and applied to such programs. my advice is to keep at it and take it one day at a time. a DO school seems to be the better option. right now though, just focus on doing very well in your courses and stay immersed in your goal.

keep life in perspective. remain grounded. you are alive. you aren't sick. you aren't an old man (this idea of schooling would basically be impossible). you have done really well bringing yourself back up. keep growing and always remember to appreciate (even if you try for DO) your position in life. in one second or a few minutes, life can end or completely change forever.

and one more thing. everyone has plans and they very likely change or don't work out as expected. or they just may. do the best you can and that's all that can happen. just understand that. you already know all these things i have said here but just reminding you.

 

[Sardinia]

Except it isn't, because often programs coordinators and staff have an agenda. The same sorts of things go on in the residency application world- every plan insists they'll rank you highly and pats you on the back, gives you some cookies and flashes their smiles, but at the end of the day, SDN members'll tell you if it's just an act they feed everyone or the real deal (not that it should matter, always rank your highest first lol) If it weren't for SDN, I'd have had no ****ing clue how to get into medical school. My advisors were less than useless, the premedical admissions committee served as nothing but a stumbling block, and the rest of the internet was... Well, you know the internet. Coming to SDN to bounce ideas off of them is both a way to gain knowledge and an exercise in self-reflection, as the way you walk away from each conversation is largely shaped by your own feelings and thoughts on a subject, often those which you aren't willing to admit to yourself. SDN, as I've always said, is a mirror.

I'm done. Find someone else to straw man.

 

[mode7scaling]

Except it isn't, because often programs coordinators and staff have an agenda. The same sorts of things go on in the residency application world- every plan insists they'll rank you highly and pats you on the back, gives you some cookies and flashes their smiles, but at the end of the day, SDN members'll tell you if it's just an act they feed everyone or the real deal (not that it should matter, always rank your highest first lol).

If it weren't for SDN, I'd have had no ****ing clue how to get into medical school. My advisors were less than useless, the premedical admissions committee served as nothing but a stumbling block, and the rest of the internet was... Well, you know the internet. Coming to SDN to bounce ideas off of them is both a way to gain knowledge and an exercise in self-reflection, as the way you walk away from each conversation is largely shaped by your own feelings and thoughts on a subject, often those which you aren't willing to admit to yourself. SDN, as I've always said, is a mirror.

yes, SDN is a great resource imo. that along with youtube, real life lab partners, professors, etc. etc. every little thing has its own benefit. also, not only do you learn the industry from insiders here on SDN, you also make some friends so there's social value. even in the 90s, no such thing as SDN existed and i remember back in 1996 after AOL went wild, i got online and had no resource to turn to other than print publications and library source materials. SDN (along with youtube, and so much more content) has completely changed everything.

 

[AlphaBeta<3]

So I guess it's fair to assume I've dug myself in too deep...
I'm not really open to DO programs.
My passion lies in neuroscience, hence the neurosurgeon shadowing.
Honestly, I'm ready to simply give up.
I thought my GPA wouldn't haunt me from when I was at the other university, I mean I have a damn 3.8 now!
This is literally a nightmare...
So am I to understand that either a GPA boosting Post-Bacc or SMP are my best possible options?

I believe nothing is impossible! There's always a way!
Try getting high tier fellowships, possibly Rhodes Scholar. Join a sport for at least a year and do well in it (even though they technically dont require it, I've seen many athletes get in), the writing part is good, every year I see someone doing writing. Try to contribute to huff post or some other major newspaper. Find a passion that you love doing and think of innovative ways you can expand it and grow it. For example, if you like tutoring kids, you could create a free after school program that high school and undergrads volunteer at to ensure that no student is unprepared for their next grade level.
Learning another language would also be good. But only learn it if you actually care. The important thing is find what you love doing, and then do it well.

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

To be honest I stopped taking you seriously when you mentioned you want to go to a top tier med school. That alone shows your maturity.

 

[ridethecliche]

I'm done. Find someone else to straw man.

There's no strawman here. Just your obtuse and asinine argument.

 

[mode7scaling]

To be honest I stopped taking you seriously when you mentioned you want to go to a top tier med school. That alone shows your maturity.

your honesty and bluntness is good. better than someone fake. the topic creator guy should read this and begin to change perspective. everyone matures at some point. i was also immature (bigtime) but isn't everyone at some point? anyhow, mr. topic guy, set realistic expectations and continue to apply your good habits and mindset to this field. you still have a chance, at least with a DO school.

 

[WingedOx]

There's no strawman here. Just your obtuse and asinine argument.

Sad too, because I like his/her avatar.