Do MDs respect physical therapists?

[Light at end of tunnel]

This is not going to end well...

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[W19]

I am waiting for another thread titled: 'Do physical therapists respect MDs?'

What is the purpose of this thread?

 

[PS2020]

I am waiting for another thread titled: 'Do physical therapists respect MDs?'

What is the purpose of this thread?

Not inflammatory enough. How about another thread on "Do nurses respect MDs?"

 

[jadedphysiotherapist]

Wow, where do I begin?!



1. You make it sound like NSGY consulting you should validate all of your inflated notions. Of course they are going to ask you how the pt is doing! It's your job to work with the pt on PT!!!! They are busy, oh you know, doing brain and spine surgery all day, so it's kind of understandable that they'll delegate physical therapy to the physical therapists and then ask how the pt is doing. You have no point at all by saying "neurosurgery LITERALLY consulted us today".

2. Bruh what? You're just trolling. You think that you guys have more in-depth general A&P "simply due to the fact" that we spend an extra 12 minutes reviewing depolarization before spending the rest of the semester learning anatomy? Are you kidding me? A&P at my school went more in depth than it did for our PT students. Our A&P exam also had nothing to do with muscle physiology or neuroscience - we had a separate class for that. Not to even mention that half of the people already took A&P in undergrad, and that muscle physiology is a required component for most gen bio classes and the MCAT. We dissected our cadavers from head to toe while our PT counterparts only did MSK. Who knows more anatomy?

3. You think EM docs use scribes to do medical work? Lol wut. Are you also comparing ED scribes to how other specialists use NP's and PAs? Go learn what an ER scribe does.



Didn't they superficially change your degree title from "Master of Physical Therapy" to "Doctor of Physical Therapy" to help your egos and your insomnia? Why are you calling MD's ' "doctors" '. I see the word "doctor" is still a trigger point for you. Your PT experience would make for a great personal statement story for your medical school application. You should consider going to doctor school!



Our school does the same thing with the dental students instead of PT like in your case. Despite being exposed to 80% of the material we are exposed to, their passing requirements are much lower and their questions on exams are much easier. They know they are not expected to absorb and learn a huge chunk of the material we are responsible for and that is reflected in their attitude and knowledge. I don't blame them for not wanting to memorize mechanisms for inborn errors of metabolism.



1. Yep, clearly our focus is purely on doing a quick procedure, keeping the patient alive, and that's it. No chronic treatment. We don't focus on that boring ****. We only do the sexy emergency procedures and let suckers like you do the "real" medicine. Like you said, its only your job to have emphasis on the healing processes. /s

2. DOs also make a minimum 2.5x the income than you do.

3. This is funny, I have to re-quote it here. "pain from nociception stimulation from the immune system". Who talks like that?! You are trying to hard. Stop trying to use redundant words, it exposes your ignorance. I'll be sure to remind my mechanic that 'my car goes forward due to the chemical reaction creating internal combustion inside the cylinders of my engine'.

4. Are you arguing that you guys know the pathophys concerning tropinin, hgb, hct, etc more than even a second year med student?!?!?! All because you have to have physical contact with the patient?!?! I have to smoke whatever you are smoking. My grandmother had a lot of physical contact with me as a kid while I was sick, I guess she was also required to know a ton about troponin levels. Ridiculous statements deserve ridiculous comebacks.



1. No you don't. You think you know what they really do, but reading wikipedia doesn't really make all the connections in your brain that you think you have. That is exactly why you can't legally inject it.



2. I can see why you are so self-conscious about defending your field now. With friends in MD, DO, DDS, PharmD... I'd also feel compelled to remind everyone that there is a "D" in DPT.

3. This is the only sentence that comes across as you being a genuinely decent guy. I realize my post is also harsh (this thread is inflammatory), so I can understand how in real life people may be different than how they come off on the internet. I wish there was more interaction between professional school students so that people wouldn't keep their misconceptions bottled up, but instead would have a lively discussion over dinner.

 

[PS2020]

:troll:

 

[AlteredScale]

Friendly reminder to keep your posts respectful and professional. Thanks.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Old but confused. Why do pre health students comment on practices they are clueless about? We literally had NSG consulting us today on how a postop patient was doing in our session....

I'm not prehealth. And what we forget about is you, not the patient. The point is that no one but you cares about your inferiority complex and the chip on your shoulder

 

[Winged Scapula]

I'm not prehealth. And what we forget about is you, not the patient. The point is that no one but you cares about your inferiority complex and the chip on your shoulder

Let's clarify what @AlteredScale meant about with the admonishment to be respectful. This is not it.

Threads about "MD vs..." or anything involving allied health professionals tend to become emotional. We want our users to be able to have conversations about topics important to them because by sharing information our community grows stronger and hopefully, as individuals we learn to understand the foundation of our co-worker's training and how they think and care for our patients.

But calling each other names or insulting each other only serves to tear down those relationships and make us look bad. It will not be tolerated on SDN and users who participate in such behavior are in violation of the Terms of Service.

 

[jadedphysiotherapist]

@Winged Scapula Im keeping this post objective and professional and just responding to points. Sorry for the inflammatory posts in this thread.


Have a nice rest of the weekend.

 

[Winged Scapula]

@Winged Scapula Im keeping this post objective and professional and just responding to points. Sorry for the inflammatory posts in this thread.



Have a nice rest of the weekend.

I understand.

My post was directed to everyone in this thread who is posting inflammatory things. Some of the stuff posted by my and your colleagues is embarrassing.

You and others should also know that coming into a specialty forum and degrading the practitioners in that forum is against the terms of service. If physicians go into your specialty forum and start posting **** about you and your specialty that would be a gross violation.

 

[KHE]

What is up with this thread?

Who gives a crap about any of this? The issue isn't whether MDs "respect" you. It's whether your PATIENTS respect you. What does "respect" even mean in this context?

I am an optometrist and that makes me one of those "not a real doctor" doctors. My standard response to this issue, which actually hasn't even come up in years has always been that when people ask or accuse me of not being a real doctor, I say "You're right. I'm a doctor like Julius Irving is a doctor but I get paid like a real doctor so I'm totally cool with it."

Here's what I've learned after 17 years in this business:

Some MDs will respect you because you take good care of their patients, you communicate well with them and you are easy to deal with.

Some MDs will NEVER respect you no matter how many people you make an obscure diagnosis on, how many people's problems you solve, how well you communicate or really what you do and there ain't a damn thing you can do about it so you just move on with your life.

I have a good network of local ophthalmologists, neurologists, GPs, rheumatologists, allergists and other people that I work with and I just deal with them. The maniacs and the bad mouthers, I don't deal with. It's that easy.

Honestly.....this is such a NON-issue. At least for me it is.

 

[John1513]

Hey guys! I'm obviously going into physical therapy as you can tell by my name. I just wanted to start of by saying I have great respect for physicians and I respect the amount of knowledge you have. I was wondering why a lot of physicians don't respect physical therapists. I know many do, but from what I have heard from many pts is that physicians aren't aware of the amount of schooling we go through now and the amount of knowledge we have in the rehabilitation setting. So I just wanted to ask the physicians who don't respect physical therapists a lot is why don't you? Thanks! P.S. I'm not trying to start a turf war or anything and I'm not trying to say pts are smarter than MDs!

You can go all the way up to DPT.

Just look up the guys running a brand Myodetox -- franchises, clients in the fitne$$ industry.

Master your craft.

Never stop learning.

Help patients.

Easier said than done, but don't worry about what other people think.

Get it!

Take care.

 

[MT2bNOT]

yeah, the physician knows more and is primary medical authority for that patient. On another front, they are also your customer as they control the referrals....it's best to keep the customers happy and stop assuming that it's disrespectful to disagree with you

Yikes..kinda proving his point here..there are instances where a physician may suggest a less than optimal PAM. For the patient's sake and for OUR code of ethics (yes they also include beneficence and non-maleficence) a PT or OT should communicate with the physician about this. It's not about control or power, MD's are scientists and have superior knowledge diagnostically no doubt- treatment wise outside of medical intervention- PT's, OT's, and SLP's have a wealth of knowledge that can facilitate a patient's best outcome.

 

[MT2bNOT]

Just a few thoughts:

1) PT/OT play rather different roles inpatient vs outpatient. One ends up being all about dispo and getting the right placement; the other about actually completing a course of therapy with specific goals in mind. Obviously the physician interaction with them will vary significantly between these arenas.

2) PT, OT, speech, etc, can be "black boxes" for many - things that get ordered but we have no idea what really happens. Definitely worth spending a couple hours with each of these as a student just to have a sense of what they do with a patient. It can be very helpful when you get recs back for a pt that don't make sense.

3) This is purely anecdotal, but at both my medical school and my current institution, all of the PTs and OTs were very young - as in the overwhelming majority were <30. I don't know whether this represents a lot of turnover in the field or simply a recent expansion of the field, but perhaps some ageism is at play too. I can imagine I would weigh the opinion of a 50 year old PT with decades of experience differently than I would that of a 24 year old.

Part of this is because rehab fields have changed (e.g. after 2007 you had to acquire a masters to be and OT and after 2020 or 20205 you'll have to have a doctorate like PT) and also younger therapists who have not had injuries or experienced burn out work are more likely to work in the acute setting but it all depends..some older therapists transition to peds, ergonomics, teaching, hands, or psych to work in a slower pace. I've seen plenty of older OT's work in acute as well- a lot depends on the culture at the place and the management as well. I know rehab often isn't sensationalized like medicine or nursing is on TV but it has it's own challenges that can make turn over rate high or low...

 

[Lyoness]

Wow your life is going to suck if you're gonna spend the rest of it trying to get validations from physicians.

 

[studentdocftw]

Some physicians will respect you from day 1 (probably a minority), others will withhold judgment until you prove yourself (probably the majority) and some will never get around to caring about you (again, probably a minority). At this point, worrying about MDs respect is pointless. Just do your job and do it well, and any MD with a decent head on their shoulders will give you the respect you deserve.

 

[ThePTfromPakistan]

Lol who cares what someone else thinks. Just keep doing your job and enjoing life. If you're good at what you do people are going to respect you. For me personally if my patients respect me then thats all i need. Who has time to worry about what some internist might be thinking about you or your profession...........

 

[emeyer02]

As someone who recently graduated with my DPT I would just like to advocate for my profession (as I would hope/assume any professional would do if they truly love what they are doing). I went through my entire undergraduate experience as a pre-MD student but after shadowing a variety of professions my junior year in undergrad I decided to apply for PT school rather than medical school as I really enjoyed being able to converse and get to know my patients on a more personal level and the PTs I observed were able to do this (NOT saying that MDs can't do this as well, just noticed it moreso with the PTs I shadowed at the time). I can say that there are many people who don't realize/understand the knowledge base/amt of schooling PTs now have to go through (this includes MDs and patients equally), even though (as many people here have pointed out), MDs have much more schooling. Which I would agree with, however, I can also say that there are now many residency programs for PTs as well where there is additional applications/interviews and then further years of schooling which ends with another board exam in order to become further specialized in a variety of areas, including: Sports (in order to specialize in this you have to have a certification as an Emergency Medical Responder, Emergency Medical Technician or Parametic), Orthopedics, Clinical Electrophysiology, Geriatrics, Neuro, Cardiovascular, Women's Health and a few others..... Personally, I usually like to do research on topics and have proof and more understand of things so for those people on this thread I have included a pdf to the requirements for these specialties in case someone would like to do their own research/reading ......

http://www.abpts.org/uploadedFiles/...out_Certification/SpecCertMinimumCriteria.pdf

Also, since no one has provided this yet that I can tell, here are some of the classes that are in the curriculum for PT school, personally, my favorite class was the Dissection/Cadaver Lab as I was fortunate enough to go to a school where the PT program had their own cadavers (per group of 4-5) but it was AWESOME!

Year 1
Summer - 11 credit hours

• Physical Therapy Practice - Professional Issues & Skill Development (2)
• Psychosocial Responses to Illness, Disability, & Health Care (3)
• Introduction to Acute Care (3)
• Clinical Anatomy (3)

Fall - 21 credit hours

• Research I (3)
• Pharmacology (2)
• Functional Anatomy (5)
• Principles and Techniques of Musculoskeletal Examination (5)
• Kinesiology/Exercise Physiology I (2)
• Gerontology (2)
• Service Learning/Clinical Experience In Physical Therapy I (2)

Spring - 21 credit hours

• Neuroscience (4)
• Orthopedics/Diagnosis & Management of Musculoskeletal Conditions (4)
• Biophysical Agents (3)
• Kinesiology/Exercise Physiology II (3)
• Wound Care for Physical Therapists (2)
• Service Learning/Clinical Experience In Physical Therapy II (2)

Year 2
Summer

• Neurology/Diagnosis & Management of the Patient with Neurological Disorders I (3)
• Research II (3)
• Case Integration/Community Partnership I (1)
• Clerkship/Clinical Experience I (5)

Fall - 21 credit hours

• Examination, Evaluation and Intervention of the Extremities (5)
• Dissection Laboratory in Human Anatomy (4)
• Physical Therapy Management of the Pediatric Patient (3)
• Management/Business in Physical Therapy (3)
• Diagnosis & Management of the Patient with Cardiovascular and Pulmonary Disease (4)
• Service Learning/Clinical Experience In Physical Therapy III (2)

Spring - 19 credit hours

• Bioethics (3)
• Diagnosis & Management of the Patient with Neurological Disorders II (4)
• Differential Diagnosis and Management of Patients with Complex Problems (3)
• Rehabilitation Techniques in Physical Therapy (3)
• Examination, Evaluation and Intervention of the Spine (4)
• Service Learning/Clinical Experience In Physical Therapy IV (2)

Year 3
Summer

• Internship/Clinical Experience - Acute Care/Rehabilitation Hospital or Outpatient Facility (12 weeks)
• PT 785 Professional and Legal Issues in Physical Therapy (2)

Fall

• Internship/Clinical Experience - Acute Care/Rehabilitation Hospital or Outpatient Facility (12 weeks)
• Capstone Project (6)

Spring

• Internship/Clinical Experience - Acute Care/Rehabilitation Hospital or Outpatient Facility (12 weeks)
• PT 750 Seminar (2)

ALSO, I know this is a crazy long post already, but..... I think a lot of people have claimed or stated different things during this thread, but personally, I always try to look back at what research says and then apply it to my current knowledge base.... So here is a research article that looks at and TESTED how different professions are able to apply their knowledge of the musculoskeletal system. I think giving OVERARCHING statements that say just because they are doctors with an "MD" they are all knowing does so much disservice. To say someone practicing as an OBGYN or psychologist or even a general practitioner has as much knowledge (or more importantly KNOWS HOW TO USE SAID KNOWLEDGE) vs. an orthopedist or PM&R doctor or...... dare I say it Physical Therapist..... is simply ridiculous. Everyone has their area of expertise, no matter if you have a "MD" after your name. Even as a DPT, I work in the rehabilitation setting with brain injury and stroke patients and I am a Certified Brain Injury Specialist. IF I were to ever transition to an outpatient place and had a patient present with a pregnancy/urinary incontinence etc. issue I would send them to an OBGYN or a PT who was a Women's Health Specialist, same for orthopedics or cardio issues etc.

A description of physical therapists' knowledge in managing musculoskeletal conditions

Fig.1 Overall scores on the musculoskeletal knowledge exam among PT students, licensed PTs, & previous data using the same exam among physicians. All physician-related data was derived from Matzkin et al,[12] except data for the subgroup of physician interns, which was derived from Freedman & Bernstein[7]. OCS = Ortho Clinical Specialist, SCS = Sports Clinical Specialist, DPT = doctoral physical therapy, MPT = master's physical therapy, Other = anesthesia, emergency medicine. ophthalmology, radiology, & transitional, FP = family practice, GS = general surgery, Res = Resident, Peds = Pediatrics, Med = internal medicine, Med stu = medical student, OB = obstetrics-gynecology, & Psy = psychiatry

 

[anbuitachi]

^I might be blind but you list other for radiology, anes etc, but i dont see Other on the chart..
I figure those 2 fields + EM should score pretty high since they deal with a ton of musculoskeletal stuff

I mean i treat most ppl with respect. It's another field and a very important part of teh treatment team.. we need a LOT more PTs. Most of them are pretty pleasant ppl and easy to work with. Out of all the co workers in the hospital, the only ones ive had issues with in the past were surgeons and nurses

 

[J ROD]

when I agree with their opinion! lol

Mostly yes, there are some I question their degree. Just as like there are "bad" ones in every profession. I appreciate competent folks.

 

[emeyer02]

^I might be blind but you list other for radiology, anes etc, but i dont see Other on the chart..
I figure those 2 fields + EM should score pretty high since they deal with a ton of musculoskeletal stuff

I mean i treat most ppl with respect. It's another field and a very important part of teh treatment team.. we need a LOT more PTs. Most of them are pretty pleasant ppl and easy to work with. Out of all the co workers in the hospital, the only ones ive had issues with in the past were surgeons and nurses

.... I completely agree that I would hope radiology has greater education in this area as they deal with a ton of musculoskeletal issues.... The quote you are looking at is I believe from the "Figure 1." part that I included which I actually copied and pasted from the article which I linked to, mainly to give people a general description of the figure I included below that statement. While, like I said above, I 100% agree those in radiology should have a wide variety of Musculoskeletal knowledge and be very well versed in the anatomy/physiology, this article was mainly looking at not only the NUTS AND BOLTS of musculoskeletal anatomy/physiology but moreso, how to treat and manage musculoskeletal conditions which is where I believe PTs and those doctors in the orthopedic field are most well versed. Just like any specialized profession, I am simply trying to advocate that PTs now have to get their doctorate and although they didn't go to medical school, they are highly trained in areas that others may not. Just as I would hope that a general practitioner or orthopedist would refer out when a patient came to them with a new pregnancy/pregnancy concerns (i.e. refer to an OBGYN)..... I would hope that someone would refer to a PT, orthopedist &/or neurologist etc. for a Neuro-musculo-skeletal condition. Just because someone went to medical school does not automatically make them a "jack of all trades"... All professions and specialties have their limits and should know when to refer out....if not, then personally, I don't believe they are doing their job and are not putting their patients' issues/values first.

 

[anbuitachi]

.... I completely agree that I would hope radiology has greater education in this area as they deal with a ton of musculoskeletal issues.... The quote you are looking at is I believe from the "Figure 1." part that I included which I actually copied and pasted from the article which I linked to, mainly to give people a general description of the figure I included below that statement. While, like I said above, I 100% agree those in radiology should have a wide variety of Musculoskeletal knowledge and be very well versed in the anatomy/physiology, this article was mainly looking at not only the NUTS AND BOLTS of musculoskeletal anatomy/physiology but moreso, how to treat and manage musculoskeletal conditions which is where I believe PTs and those doctors in the orthopedic field are most well versed. Just like any specialized profession, I am simply trying to advocate that PTs now have to get their doctorate and although they didn't go to medical school, they are highly trained in areas that others may not. Just as I would hope that a general practitioner or orthopedist would refer out when a patient came to them with a new pregnancy/pregnancy concerns (i.e. refer to an OBGYN)..... I would hope that someone would refer to a PT, orthopedist &/or neurologist etc. for a Neuro-musculo-skeletal condition. Just because someone went to medical school does not automatically make them a "jack of all trades"... All professions and specialties have their limits and should know when to refer out....if not, then personally, I don't believe they are doing their job and are not putting their patients' issues/values first.

yea for sure. i expect PT to know more about msk stuff than I do. that's why i get PT consult hahaha

 

[Dr_Grabow]

I'm saying I looked into both quite extensively....and yeah, the doc knows more

How does osteopathic manipulation compare in terms of scope of knowledge to what the majority of PT referrals cover? I guess, in other words, would training in OMM suffice for most basic PT referrals?

 

[RangerBob]

How does osteopathic manipulation compare in terms of scope of knowledge to what the majority of PT referrals cover? I guess, in other words, would training in OMM suffice for most basic PT referrals?

No--PT's will do some manipulation, but they're doing far more than just that. OMM can be very beneficial for patients, but it's typically not going to help alone with the long-term biomechanical changes needed to help with back pain, shoulder pain, or with helping regain function after a stroke.

None of the PTs I work with at our VA or academic center do just modalities (manipulation, ultrasound, dry needling, etc.). In private practice they do modalities more often, as you can bill for it and it keeps the patient coming back as they're typically things that will make you feel better temporarily. So then the group makes more money.

Appropriately trained PTs use modalities to better allow the patient to participate in the exercise program. If your shoulder hurts too much to work on scapular stabilization or RTC strengthening, then a PT might try heat/dry needling/US so that you can get a little more pain-free ROM to allow you do do those exercises.

The same goes for us--if I see a patient in clinic and RTC dysfunction/RTC impingement, then I may do a steroid injection. Sometimes that alone fixes the problem because the patient will use the shoulder more, but often they need at least a short burst of PT and a good home exercise program to correct the biomechanical deficits that lead to the problem in the first place. The injection helps them work with PT, but the PT is what will provide them with the long-term relief.

As a physiatrist, if PT's disappeared, it'd be as bad as if an oncologist lost all access to radiation/chemotherapy. OK, well, our patients wouldn't die, but my point is it's a mainstay of PM&R treatments.

(Lets not forget OT and SLP, though for outpatient MSK issues most of our referrals are to PT)

 

[Dr_Grabow]

No--PT's will do some manipulation, but they're doing far more than just that. OMM can be very beneficial for patients, but it's typically not going to help alone with the long-term biomechanical changes needed to help with back pain, shoulder pain, or with helping regain function after a stroke.

None of the PTs I work with at our VA or academic center do just modalities (manipulation, ultrasound, dry needling, etc.). In private practice they do modalities more often, as you can bill for it and it keeps the patient coming back as they're typically things that will make you feel better temporarily. So then the group makes more money.

Appropriately trained PTs use modalities to better allow the patient to participate in the exercise program. If your shoulder hurts too much to work on scapular stabilization or RTC strengthening, then a PT might try heat/dry needling/US so that you can get a little more pain-free ROM to allow you do do those exercises.

The same goes for us--if I see a patient in clinic and RTC dysfunction/RTC impingement, then I may do a steroid injection. Sometimes that alone fixes the problem because the patient will use the shoulder more, but often they need at least a short burst of PT and a good home exercise program to correct the biomechanical deficits that lead to the problem in the first place. The injection helps them work with PT, but the PT is what will provide them with the long-term relief.

As a physiatrist, if PT's disappeared, it'd be as bad as if an oncologist lost all access to radiation/chemotherapy. OK, well, our patients wouldn't die, but my point is it's a mainstay of PM&R treatments.

(Lets not forget OT and SLP, though for outpatient MSK issues most of our referrals are to PT)

Wow, this response is great. Thank you RangerBob. By the way, nice signature.

 

[JJArms22]

My wife is a PT and from I've seen of their curriculum, it is comparable in difficulty, even though admittedly different in scope. But, for instance, my med school has a good majority of neuro taught by two DPTs, and the slides we got were the same as the PT program's neuro class.

No, it’s really not. My girlfriend is going to PT school and I study with her daily. It’s not the same. I understand this is your wife and you’re naturally biased, but what you’re saying is simply not true.

 

[JJArms22]

What is up with this thread?

Who gives a crap about any of this? The issue isn't whether MDs "respect" you. It's whether your PATIENTS respect you. What does "respect" even mean in this context?

I am an optometrist and that makes me one of those "not a real doctor" doctors. My standard response to this issue, which actually hasn't even come up in years has always been that when people ask or accuse me of not being a real doctor, I say "You're right. I'm a doctor like Julius Irving is a doctor but I get paid like a real doctor so I'm totally cool with it."

Here's what I've learned after 17 years in this business:

Some MDs will respect you because you take good care of their patients, you communicate well with them and you are easy to deal with.

Some MDs will NEVER respect you no matter how many people you make an obscure diagnosis on, how many people's problems you solve, how well you communicate or really what you do and there ain't a damn thing you can do about it so you just move on with your life.

I have a good network of local ophthalmologists, neurologists, GPs, rheumatologists, allergists and other people that I work with and I just deal with them. The maniacs and the bad mouthers, I don't deal with. It's that easy.

Honestly.....this is such a NON-issue. At least for me it is.

Do optometrist really make as much as MDs? I did not know that. I’ve made a huge mistake.

 

[Redpancreas]

You're nothing more than a glorified yoga instructor. This is based on first hand experience from PT treatment.

Unwarranted and not true.

 

[Chillbo Baggins]

No, it’s really not. My girlfriend is going to PT school and I study with her daily. It’s not the same. I understand this is your wife and you’re naturally biased, but what you’re saying is simply not true.

It's not true that some of the curriculum I've seen with my own eyes is literally the exact same? Lol.

 

[mehc012]

No, it’s really not. My girlfriend is going to PT school and I study with her daily. It’s not the same. I understand this is your wife and you’re naturally biased, but what you’re saying is simply not true.

It's almost as if your girlfriend, you, his wife, and he all go to different schools and so comparisons between 2 different pairs of them might differ!

Also, lol at the accidental implication that you're only biased once you get married to the person...

 

[begoood95]

Man, I should wonder over to the MD forums more often... Mods on this side of the fence allow for much more heated/inflammatory threads!

I think I'll stay in the pre-MD forums until MS1 though

Now, back to lurking...

 

[W19]

Man, I should wonder over to the MD forums more often... Mods on this side of the fence allow for much more heated/inflammatory threads!

I think I'll stay in the pre-MD forums until MS1 though

Now, back to lurking...

We are a loving family here...

 

[begoood95]

We are a loving family here...

Lol then hopefully I get to join soon!

 

[KHE]

Do optometrist really make as much as MDs? I did not know that. I’ve made a huge mistake.

Only the really good ones.