Do medical students ever fear failing out of med school or having to withdraw?

[AcneRosaceaDermatitis]

I wanted to ask if this is something most medical students go through or not, especially because medical school is really expensive and most people take out loans to afford it?

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[Lifeblood_20]

Yes, absolutely. Just take a look at the threads on SDN about/by med students who were dismissed or withdrew from med school.
Ideally, your med school admin/faculty should be helping you avoid failing out, whether that would be through academic support or offering resources for mental health/wellness, or options to take a leave of absence since it is in the best interest of the med school to retain and graduate its students.

 

[FluffyCat1212]

Yeah, totally. Because of how much they have invested in each student, many med schools will make it relatively difficult to fail out. I'm very fortunate that failing out at my school is super difficult. However, there are exceptions to every rule and the fear is still there.

 

[operaman]

Yeah I think it’s on everyone’s mind in the beginning. For many it becomes a non issue when you see you’re comfortably passing everything with a manageable study schedule. There are those who are borderline and have to think about it constantly. Thankfully most schools provide ample resources for these students to succeed

 

[Ho0v-man]

I did well throughout med school and was convinced that I was going to fail the entire time.

 

[OptionOffense]

That is part of the anxiety of the endeavor. Turns you into one neurotic person. I was convinced I was going to fail out before every single test and would stay up all night studying. IT really is no way to live. It's hard. i am not gonna even talk about before Step1. Really crazy and I cant believe I lived through that w/o ANY medication.

 

[ChordaEpiphany]

It's not that it's difficult to fail out. It's actually pretty easy. However, it's rare because the students are pre-selected and the incentives are there.

The failure rate in med school would likely be much higher than undergrad if you just swapped the populations, but if you were selected for med school then you can definitely make it through, and you have loans haunting your dreams keeping you motivated. In my experience the only people who fail out are those afflicted with serious mental health struggles, but even then if you can get back on the right footing after a LOA you can generally still get through.

 

[M&L]

I did well throughout med school and was convinced that I was going to fail the entire time.

Oh my god . Hahaha . Me too . Drove my advisor crazy hahaha

 

[Billiam95]

Constantly the first few months - took a few months to figure out how to study and get my grades where I wanted them. Smooth sailing since then. IMO, for 99.9% for med students, any knowledge deficit or class be corrected/passed with more or better studying.

 

[Rapsidy]

Nothing keeps you motivated to keep going like the fear of soul crushing debt that you can’t pay off otherwise.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Moving to pre-med.

 

[dontknowwhattodo]

Absolutely. And people do fail out. About 11 from my class have so far.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

no.

My school has a remediation policy such that you would have to really work to fail out. Think it’s like you can’t fail 4 blocks in 2 semesters or something

 

[Future_Bone_Docta]

Every school is built different. Some are super understanding and will do whatever they have to to get you through, while others have absurd attrition/drop out rates to preserve their USMLE first time pass rates.

But I am almost positive very student at every school has been scared of failing out at one point or another.

 

[gyngyn]

Those who end up in the Caribbean are at high risk not to make it.

 

[AcneRosaceaDermatitis]

Those who end up in the Caribbean are at high risk not to make it.

What about US MD/DO schools? I'm sure not everyone makes it even there

 

[AcneRosaceaDermatitis]

Absolutely. And people do fail out. About 11 from my class have so far.

Why did they fail out? Like what are the reasons they performed badly

 

[candbgirl]

What about US MD/DO schools? I'm sure not everyone makes it even there

Everyone doesn’t make it in US MD/DO schools. But as said several times above, it usually takes a concerted effort on the student’s part to actually fail out. I remember the Dean saying to a very shook group of M1s who had just gotten their first test results back that the school had picked them and would do whatever they could to help every student be successful. But the student has to do their part too.

 

[candbgirl]

Why did they fail out? Like what are the reasons they performed badly

I don’t think anyone here can answer this question. It would only be speculation .

 

[GoSpursGo]

Everyone doesn’t make it in US MD/DO schools. But as said several times above, it usually takes a concerted effort on the student’s part to actually fail out. I remember the Dean saying to a very shook group of M1s who had just gotten their first test results back that the school had picked them and would do whatever they could to help every student be successful. But the student has to do their part too.

I also think it depends on the school. Some DO schools, and particularly newer DO schools, seem to be much more stringent in their remediation procedures.

 

[dontknowwhattodo]

Why did they fail out? Like what are the reasons they performed badly

My school requires you to retake any exam you fail and if you fail the retake, you get kicked out. Or if you have to retake too many exams then you get kicked out. That’s what happened to most people, some people just said screw this and left on their will.

 

[AcneRosaceaDermatitis]

My school requires you to retake any exam you fail and if you fail the retake, you get kicked out. Or if you have to retake too many exams then you get kicked out. That’s what happened to most people, some people just said screw this and left on their will.

Wow, that's intense. 2 retakes = kicked out? That's insane but ig med schools gotta have standards

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Why did they fail out? Like what are the reasons they performed badly

As mentioned before this is too broad to answer. Some common reasons probably include untreated psychiatric conditions, substance abuse, honor code, personal life (break ups, divorce etc.)

I would also add that overextending one’s self could be a major cause. For example taking on too many research projects, working on the side etc.

 

[gyngyn]

What about US MD/DO schools? I'm sure not everyone makes it even there

We have less than 1% fail out. A few will need to repeat first year (or some part of it).
Psycho-social problems are the cause.

 

[Goro]

I wanted to ask if this is something most medical students go through or not, especially because medical school is really expensive and most people take out loans to afford it?

Only if they are failing multiple exams at my school.

Why did they fail out? Like what are the reasons they performed badly

Mental health issues are the number one reason we lose students at my school, and this has been reported to me from other medical schools, MD schools included. Even the best ones.

Other reasons include physical illness, or some major life event coming to smack them upside the head, like the loss of a parent or a divorce or children acting out in school big time.

There are a few students who really don't want to be doctors, but we're forced to take that route by their parents. Failing out is kind of like suicide by cop for them.

Our attrition rate runs from 1 to 3%, and this is similar to nearly all other medical schools, except the newest do schools which have scarily high attrition rates

 

[esob]

Probably 3-4% of my class didn't make it to 4th year. Some remediated classes and will eventually graduate, but I know of two who intentionally quit because they didn't want to endure the hardships. I know of a few more that were booted for academic or professionalism reasons. The scary part is that "professionalism" is a slippery slope, and in some of those cases = "we don't like you, so you are being written up."

 

[AcneRosaceaDermatitis]

> The scary part is that "professionalism" is a slippery slope, and in some of those cases = "we don't like you, so you are being written up."

Care to elaborate?

 

[Goro]

> The scary part is that "professionalism" is a slippery slope, and in some of those cases = "we don't like you, so you are being written up."

Care to elaborate?

Students make a lot of noise that Administration doesn't like.,

At some DO schools, this is represented by students concerns about the curriculum, difficulty of test questions, or poor rotation sites. Administration at these schools is completely unwilling to even entertain the idea that the students may have a valid concern.

 

[esob]

> The scary part is that "professionalism" is a slippery slope, and in some of those cases = "we don't like you, so you are being written up."

Care to elaborate?

Goro pretty much summed it up in the above post. The best general advice is to not make waves and fly under the radar. Accept the fact that the administration holds all of the power and toe the line if you want your degree. I once brought a valid concern regarding an academic policy to the administration. The vast majority of the class agreed it was a real concern. I was politely entertained by several high-level administration members, all of whom very candidly admitted that it was a valid concern but that their hands were tied to do anything about it. I realized at some point that A) nothing was going to be changed and B) that continuing to pursue the issue (which I was trying to do on behalf of the class) was only marking me as a troublemaker.

It's like mando says, "this is the way"

 

[DarkBluMage]

100%
The learning curve is rough and the stakes are high. We’ve lost a few classmates and it’s definitely something you hate to see. We all worked so hard to get to this point. My first year was a rough one but I feel much more comfortable now. There’s still that fear of failing since we only take 1 exam per unit at my school, but it’s less overbearing once you start consistently doing well. You learn to adjust to the high stress levels, learn the study style that works for you, and actively work on maintaining your mental health. You’ll be alright.

 

[Goro]

And all of my years of teaching, I have seen very, very, very few students fail out of medical school because they could not handle the material. Some extraneous Factor was preventing them from learning the material, and that was the problem

 

[paul30]

Students make a lot of noise that Administration doesn't like.,

At some DO schools, this is represented by students concerns about the curriculum, difficulty of test questions, or poor rotation sites. Administration at these schools is completely unwilling to even entertain the idea that the students may have a valid concern.

This is super interesting and also a little scary lol. Not related to "failing out" per se, but if you're a student advocate in student gov or some other representative body, and admin has an issue with students raising their voices, professionalism sweeps over and they can just arbitrarily write you up?

 

[OptionOffense]

Absolutely. And people do fail out. About 11 from my class have so far.

Thats too many. SOmething is wrong with the school

 

[AcneRosaceaDermatitis]

This is super interesting and also a little scary lol. Not related to "failing out" per se, but if you're a student advocate in student gov or some other representative body, and admin has an issue with students raising their voices, professionalism sweeps over and they can just arbitrarily write you up?

that's what I was going to say lol

 

[Goro]

This is super interesting and also a little scary lol. Not related to "failing out" per se, but if you're a student advocate in student gov or some other representative body, and admin has an issue with students raising their voices, professionalism sweeps over and they can just arbitrarily write you up?

This appears to be the case at LMU and NOVA. Other SDNers can add to this Wall of Shame.

But also note that many schools are student centric, as is mine.

 

[i-doctor]

Probably at some point in every doctor’s career there is a close call somewhere. Just like in real life. A situation that could change your career trajectory. Mine was failing the Gross Anatomy final exam in my freshman year. I had to re-take the class over that summer. If I hadn’t passed again, I would have had to re-take the whole freshman year (and then dismissal loomed if I failed again). I needed a score of 80 on the final exam to pass the summer remedial course. I passed it with a score of 81….
Apparently that remedial summer course did not show up on my transcript, and my Gross Anatomy grade was recorded as a Pass.
I subsequently did fine the rest of the way and was lucky to match into a surgical subspecialty (despite—ironically—apparently being poor at anatomy).

 

[Ho0v-man]

Every school is different. My school basically gave you a free pass to fail one exam in first semester allowing you to take a remediation exam and replace your grade with a maximum grade of 70%. No other free passes after that though.

A buddy of mine failed first semester by failing one class by one quiz question and had to repeat the year.

But honestly, lines have to be drawn somewhere. We’re doctors. A standard is set and you’re expected to at least meet it (but ideally go beyond.). People have this funny tendency of dying when we don’t excel.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

This is super interesting and also a little scary lol. Not related to "failing out" per se, but if you're a student advocate in student gov or some other representative body, and admin has an issue with students raising their voices, professionalism sweeps over and they can just arbitrarily write you up?

Again, this really depends upon the school. My school has channels in which we’re not only allowed, but encouraged, to offer feedback and if enough students voice similar concerns it’s usually changed or modified

I’ve heard of other schools where it’s like you describe above

 

[dontknowwhattodo]

Thats too many. SOmething is wrong with the school

Tell me about it 😏

 

[medschoolapplicant101.]

Happens left and right. Administration although show that they care about their student success, but clearly creating too strict unbendable policies prompting students to unnecessarily worry before their exams result in failed courses, blocks, LOAs, withdrawals and dismissals. Fail one block, can’t remediate too bad, come back next year, if you mess up one more block during that repeat year, good bye.

 

[AcneRosaceaDermatitis]

Happens left and right. Administration although show that they care about their student success, but clearly creating too strict unbendable policies prompting students to unnecessarily worry before their exams result in failed courses, blocks, LOAs, withdrawals and dismissals. Fail one block, can’t remediate too bad, come back next year, if you mess up one more block during that repeat year, good bye.

does this also happen at MD schools or does this typically happen at DO schools?

 

[AcneRosaceaDermatitis]

Everyone doesn’t make it in US MD/DO schools. But as said several times above, it usually takes a concerted effort on the student’s part to actually fail out. I remember the Dean saying to a very shook group of M1s who had just gotten their first test results back that the school had picked them and would do whatever they could to help every student be successful. But the student has to do their part too.

how do they support students who are academically struggling?

 

[M&L]

how do they support students who are academically struggling?

well, i do not know about that program, but in my school, for example, we are allowed 3 retakes per semester. You do not have to retake all the fails, - you have 2 or 3 exams per block and if the AVERAGE grade is passing, you are fine (so, you do not have to pass all of them). Also, there is a free tutor available for anyone (i have been working as a tutor for junior med students for several years now, - school pays me directly, students are not billed).
There is not percentile reported in MSPE (dean's letter) unless you are in top 10%. It takes a lot of pressure off, because you know that you can be in the bottom of the class, and, since the school is true pass/fail, no one will ever know.

For clinical years, there is a free one time pass for each block, - if you pass from first retake, noone will ever know.

Basically, school encourages us to actually learn the stuff, pass and move on, instead of just punishing us permanently. It is so nice. Because the truth is, - you might hate A LOT of what you learn. For example, i am applying for pathology, i did not like a lot of clinical stuff, because it is just me, but i knew that it was an important experience, and sucked it up, learned from it and moved on. Yes, i never failed anything, but there were courses i did struggle with, and it was so comforting to know that the world will not fall apart if i fail something.

 

[AcneRosaceaDermatitis]

well, i do not know about that program, but in my school, for example, we are allowed 3 retakes per semester. You do not have to retake all the fails, - you have 2 or 3 exams per block and if the AVERAGE grade is passing, you are fine (so, you do not have to pass all of them). Also, there is a free tutor available for anyone (i have been working as a tutor for junior med students for several years now, - school pays me directly, students are not billed).
There is not percentile reported in MSPE (dean's letter) unless you are in top 10%. It takes a lot of pressure off, because you know that you can be in the bottom of the class, and, since the school is true pass/fail, no one will ever know.

For clinical years, there is a free one time pass for each block, - if you pass from first retake, noone will ever know.

Basically, school encourages us to actually learn the stuff, pass and move on, instead of just punishing us permanently. It is so nice. Because the truth is, - you might hate A LOT of what you learn. For example, i am applying for pathology, i did not like a lot of clinical stuff, because it is just me, but i knew that it was an important experience, and sucked it up, learned from it and moved on. Yes, i never failed anything, but there were courses i did struggle with, and it was so comforting to know that the world will not fall apart if i fail something.

sounds like a dream program lol, is this an MD program?

 

[M&L]

sounds like a dream program lol, is this an MD program?

EVMS, norfolk, Virginia. MD, yes.
I am naming the program specifically, because i used to advise people a lot in EVMS forum and you could easily find it if you wanted to. No reason to hide. EVMS was my top choice, and I was so excited when they pulled me off the waitlist, even though i was fortunate to have 3 other acceptances already lined up.

 

[AcneRosaceaDermatitis]

EVMS, norfolk, Virginia. MD, yes.
I am naming the program specifically, because i used to advise people a lot in EVMS forum and you could easily find it if you wanted to. No reason to hide. EVMS was my top choice, and I was so excited when they pulled me off the waitlist, even though i was fortunate to have 3 other acceptances already lined up.

Lol well it looks like I'll have to apply there if I ever do decide to go to med school

 

[M&L]

for sure.

But seriously though - i do advise everyone I know to make sure you ask about remediation policy. In other words, what happens if you fail an exam? It is a big deal. Policies that are not supportive can, at the very least, add A LOT of stress. And going to school like mine helps your wellbeing, and you start prioritizing learning how to become a good doctor, vs just cramming for exams.

 

[mudfud26]

Failing was my #1 fear coming to school and it’s an anxiety that almost everyone in my class has. I think going to a less competitive and Pass/fail school has made my experience much more collaborative and supportive than a more competitive school may have been. Still, anxiety, failure, and imposter syndrome are issues at every single medical school. It is helpful to learn about a school’s support structures and remediation policies when deciding where to go.

Highlights from my school’s pre-clerkship remediation policy:
1- must pass at least half of exams for the year
2 - can remediate max of 2 blocks in summer. If more than 2 blocks failed, the year must be repeated to continue.

Other resources: They have a study strategies office so we can optimize our studying and test taking skills. Free confidential counseling is available for up to 10 appointments per year; after that, you insurance picks up the tab. Faculty provide abundant office hours and are happy to answer questions. You are given faculty advisors for further individualized help. You are also placed in learning communities and matched with a peer mentor for social support.

 

[Goro]

.Other resources: They have a study strategies office so we can optimize our studying and test taking skills. Free confidential counseling is available for up to 10 appointments per year; after that, you insurance picks up the tab. Faculty provide abundant office hours and are happy to answer questions. You are given faculty advisors for further individualized help. You are also placed in learning communities and matched with a peer mentor for social support.

This is pretty much what we have at our school.

 

[MDMechEngr]

no.

My school has a remediation policy such that you would have to really work to fail out. Think it’s like you can’t fail 4 blocks in 2 semesters or something

Also NO for me. The failure rate is very very low at my school also. The only thing I fear is being mediocre, which forces me to put in the time to make sure this does not happen.