Do past criminal charges practically block entry to medical school?

[ThatOneShyGirl]

I am currently a 22 year old junior pre-med neuroscience student in Kentucky. I have planned the last several years of my life around my goal of becoming a doctor of psychiatry.

In February 2017, I recieved several drug-related criminal charges but was only convicted of a 4th degree misdemeanor for possession of heroin (yes, that can be a misdemeanor! I am very lucky!). In April 2019, I was convincted of a 4th degree misdemeanor for domestic violence after I faught back when my abusive ex-boyfriend was beating me.
EDIT: I also had emergency brain surgery at the end of 2017 and I had to spend the next 2ish years recovering from this and taking a hiatus from college due to the resulting effects, including epilepsy. I had a chunk of my temporal lobe removed and I was sometimes having 5-10 seizures within just 3 or 4 days. I was not exactly thinking too clearly at this time. I have now learned to adapt and my epilepsy is under control.

I have been clean and sober today since June 24, 2019 and I have truly changed my life around. I plan on taking the MCAT and applying to medical school in the summer of 2022 and beginning in fall 2023. My charges will not be available for expungement until 7 years after my plea dates, which will be May 2024 and April 2026.

Do these criminal charges greatly hinder my ability to get into medical school? Will they affect my ability to work in a hospital during medical school? How much/how little? Is there no hope? What should I do?

I have been told that I will be asked if I have been convicted of any criminal charges during an interview, and will likely also be asked if I have had any charges expunged for entry into a residency program. Will I have to answer yes? If I manage to get my charges expunged, will I have to admit to getting them expunged? Could they see these charges regardless?

Would it be totally crazy and stupid to go to the medical admissions office of the school I attend and ask them about it?

I'm happy to expand on whatever you'd like. Thank you in advance for your help! I sincerely appreciate it!

EDIT: I have read the story of Leigh Sundem! I am fully aware of that tragedy.

EDIT #2: I just want to thank all of you again for your help, advice, and taking time out of your very busy schedules to share your knowledge. I truly appreciate every single one of you and I cannot thank you enough.

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[deleted1097413]

I mean if the criminal charge says "possession of heroin" that's not a good look. if it said "possession of illegal substance" I imagine that would be much better and people would just assume it's weed.

also domestic violence in 2021 does not play well. I'm not an expert on this though, just my opinion. But at least they are misdemeanors. contact a lawyer I guess. you'll have to pass background checks your whole life in medicine. from getting into school, to getting into residency, getting a job, etc. would definitely never mention the word "heroin" to any medical school admission person though lol.

also, congrats on being sober, that's the most important thing here.

 

[Redpancreas]

I am currently a 22 year old junior pre-med neuroscience student in Kentucky. I have planned the last several years of my life around my goal of becoming a doctor of psychiatry.

In February 2017, I recieved several drug-related criminal charges but was only convicted of a 4th degree misdemeanor for possession of heroin (yes, that can be a misdemeanor! I am very lucky!). In April 2019, I was convincted of a 4th degree misdemeanor for domestic violence after I faught back when my abusive ex-boyfriend was beating me.

I have been clean and sober today since June 24, 2019 and I have truly changed my life around. I plan on taking the MCAT and applying to medical school in the summer of 2022 and beginning in fall 2023. My charges will not be available for expungement until 7 years after my plea dates, which will be May 2024 and April 2026.

Do these criminal charges greatly hinder my ability to get into medical school? Will they affect my ability to work in a hospital during medical school? How much/how little? Is there no hope? What should I do?

I have been told that I will be asked if I have been convicted of any criminal charges during an interview, and will likely also be asked if I have had any charges expunged for entry into a residency program. Will I have to answer yes? If I manage to get my charges expunged, will I have to admit to getting them expunged? Could they see these charges regardless?

Would it be totally crazy and stupid to go to the medical admissions office of the school I attend and ask them about it?

I'm happy to expand on whatever you'd like. Thank you in advance for your help! I sincerely appreciate it!

Congratulations! My opinion is very divided on this and I don't even know what exactly to say but I'll just spill. Ultimately medical education can unforgiving about these issues. I have seen both extremes. There are users (now likely moved on to bigger better things) who were regulars on SDN who posted about mistakes like DUIs and ultimately matching and becoming attendings but then I also see sad cases like this:

I don't want to sway you one way or another or scare you. Life is precious. Educate yourself fully on the risks and benefits applicable to your specific case. Take a lot of time to listen to all sides, read articles, talk to people in your situation, talk to lawyers, physicians, etc. about what the the best thing to do is and is if you feel comfortable with the risks/benefits, then apply.

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

Congratulations! My opinion is very divided on this and I don't even know what exactly to say but I'll just spill. Ultimately medical education can unforgiving about these issues. I have seen both extremes. There are users (now likely moved on to bigger better things) who were regulars on SDN who posted about mistakes like DUIs and ultimately matching and becoming attendings but then I also see sad cases like this:

I don't want to sway you one way or another or scare you. Life is precious. Educate yourself fully on the risks and benefits applicable to your specific case. Take a lot of time to listen to all sides, read articles, talk to people in your situation, talk to lawyers, physicians, etc. about what the the best thing to do is and is if you feel comfortable with the risks/benefits, then apply.

Yes, I have read that story and it is very heartbreaking. There are a few differences between my story and hers, but that is what I'm afraid of.
I have asked my attorney, an education attorney, a physician, my advisor (who also asked someone who works in admissions for my school's med school), another pre-med student, and numerous subreddits (r/premed, r/Residency, r/AskDocs, r/medicalstudents). I have received a lot of different answers and I'm really not sure what to think.

 

[Redpancreas]

OP, I have also seen that specialties like Psych are oftentimes the least forgiving for mistakes. Again, I would do a thorough investigation and get everyone's perspective before diving into this long path.

 

[Redpancreas]

Yes, I have read that story and it is very heartbreaking. There are a few differences between my story and hers, but that is what I'm afraid of.
I have asked my attorney, an education attorney, a physician, my advisor (who also asked someone who works in admissions for my school's med school), another pre-med student, and numerous subreddits (r/premed, r/Residency, r/AskDocs, r/medicalstudents). I have received a lot of different answers and I'm really not sure what to think.

I hope people here have some good advice for you. @NotAProgDirector

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

I remember reading about Dr. Leigh Sundem (from the link above). She had excellent board scores, but still couldn't match into residency due to her history of drug addiction, as far as I recall.

You would need to disclose both of these convictions for medical school and residency application. Psychiatry isn't the only great career in mental health - just something to consider, as other fields may not have the same barriers related to criminal history.

Are you saying that I would have to disclose my charges because questions are specifically asked regarding them? Or just because honesty is the best policy? Also, would this still be the case if the charges were expunged, dismissed, or sealed?
Also, do you have any examples of careers to consider? Besides psychology (and I do NOT want to be a therapist—I am far more interested in medicine), I am not too sure what the options are.

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

OP, I have also seen that specialties like Psych are oftentimes the least forgiving for mistakes. Again, I would do a thorough investigation and get everyone's perspective before diving into this long path.

What specialties have you seen to be the most forgiving?

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

I just went through the residency app process this year, and they specifically ask about misdemeanor conviction. Whether you would need to disclose after expungement may be a tricky question best answered by your lawyer.

For other mental-health related careers, I was thinking about psychology or therapist, so never mind.

Does it specifically ask, "Have you ever been convicted of a crime? " or include expunged/ charges in another way?
My attorney told me yesterday that, if the charges were expunged, he would recommend not mentioning them... However, I have read horror stories about people who have been found to have lied and get ripped out of med school/residency later on.

 

[Lawpy]

I am not entirely

Does it specifically ask, "Have you ever been convicted of a crime? " or include expunged/ charges in another way?
My attorney told me yesterday that, if the charges were expunged, he would recommend not mentioning them... However, I have read horror stories about people who have been found to have lied and get ripped out of med school/residency later on.

I mean expunged is still there unlike being completely exonerated. I remember @gyngyn suggesting a while ago to list expunged charges but i don't recall exact details

 

[Redpancreas]

What specialties have you seen to be the most forgiving?

Family Medicine.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

It is challenging. It all varies on the nature of the crime, the institution you are applying and the state which you plan to practice, realizing that criminal convictions aren't just a question asked by medical schools, but by residency/fellowship applications, state licensing boards and employers.

Usually, felonies are automatic restrictions to practice. Misdemeanors aren't but they do have to be reported.

I think it general, its the nature of the offense and the frequency. If you had a DWI as a one time thing, or you were convicted of possession of an illegal substance and you were young and you can demonstrate growth, it can usually be overlooked. If you have multiple convictions over time or those conviction(s) include violence... that's usually an insurmountable hurdle.

 

[Med Ed]

What should I do?

Welcome to the legal twilight zone.

If I were you I would not even consider applying until both of these convictions are expunged. Per current AMCAS rules you do not have to disclose expunged convictions on the primary application. Hire an attorney to help you navigate the rest, which can vary depending on the state. Even if you have to disclose something later, the convictions will be 7-9+ years old, which makes them less problematic if you have stayed out of trouble in the meantime. By the time you apply for a license and DEA number they would be 10+ years old. In some states you do not have to report old misdemeanors to the medical board at all. In others they want to know every impure thought you've had since age 8. There is no consistency.

 

[Med Ed]

I cannot imagine any medical school risking a seat and potential bad publicity that such a student could bring.

I have news for you, there are plenty of them in the system already.

If I were the OP I would find a less regulated career to enjoy, but the basic question here is whether a pair of expunged 10+ year-old misdemeanors will prevent someone from becoming a practicing physician. The answer is probably not, although the path from A to B might be unpleasant at times.

 

[Goro]

I am currently a 22 year old junior pre-med neuroscience student in Kentucky. I have planned the last several years of my life around my goal of becoming a doctor of psychiatry.

In February 2017, I recieved several drug-related criminal charges but was only convicted of a 4th degree misdemeanor for possession of heroin (yes, that can be a misdemeanor! I am very lucky!). In April 2019, I was convincted of a 4th degree misdemeanor for domestic violence after I faught back when my abusive ex-boyfriend was beating me.

I have been clean and sober today since June 24, 2019 and I have truly changed my life around. I plan on taking the MCAT and applying to medical school in the summer of 2022 and beginning in fall 2023. My charges will not be available for expungement until 7 years after my plea dates, which will be May 2024 and April 2026.

Do these criminal charges greatly hinder my ability to get into medical school? Will they affect my ability to work in a hospital during medical school? How much/how little? Is there no hope? What should I do?

I have been told that I will be asked if I have been convicted of any criminal charges during an interview, and will likely also be asked if I have had any charges expunged for entry into a residency program. Will I have to answer yes? If I manage to get my charges expunged, will I have to admit to getting them expunged? Could they see these charges regardless?

Would it be totally crazy and stupid to go to the medical admissions office of the school I attend and ask them about it?

I'm happy to expand on whatever you'd like. Thank you in advance for your help! I sincerely appreciate it!

EDIT: I have read the story of Leigh Sundem! I am fully aware of that tragedy.

Honesty, when I read your post, I had to involuntarily take in a deep breath and slowly exhale.

That's not a good sign.

You really need to talk to a lawyer about this, but I have several things to note:

I think that it's been too soon since your last transgression to admit you. I'd like to see FIVE (yes, FIVE) years of model behavior.

You are going to deal with the mindset among Adcom members of
a) Why admit this person when we have so many other applicants who don't have such red flags?
b) Is this the type of person we wish to have a student?

You past may not reflect who you are as a person, but Medicine as a profession is a risk-averse and conservative. In addition, med school is a crucible and I've seen it break even healthy students. Thus, I'd have qualms about your relapsing.

 

[YCAGA]

First of all, congratulations on getting clean and staying sober. Keep up the good fight.

Second thing, were you ever charged with a felony, even if it was dropped? If yes, and unless you got out of it by being declared not guilty by a judge/jury, please pick another profession. Eventually you will hit a roadblock that you can’t get past, and the further along you have yes-men (or women) saying you should keep trying, the more debt and time you will have put into a profession that ultimately will not let you practice independently.

Anyways, I think the important thing here is the optics of the charges themselves. A heroin charge, a two year gap, then a charge for a violent crime looks pretty horrible. In my mind, there is a hierarchy to how those things are viewed, from starting with the worst…sex crimes/aggravated violent crimes > armed robbery > dealing hard drugs/unarmed robbery/burglary of occupied structure/less severe violent crimes > using hard drugs/dealing weed > DUI > theft (but NOT burglary of occupied structure or robbery) > writing bad checks/misdemeanor financial crimes > marijuana possession > minor in possession of alcohol

And of course felony >>> misdemeanor.

OP has two crimes towards the top of that list and was likely initially charged with possession with intent to distribute or something worse than possession of heroin if they got “lucky.”

And let’s remember, the question here isn’t whether medicine should be forgiving of people’s pasts, it is will medicine in 2021 forgive you. And unfortunately the answer is no.

If people don’t believe me, go look at the number of states that require you to disclose well controlled depression or anxiety with no history of hospitalization, no history of suicidality, stable psychiatric treatment for years, etc. That is the level of stigma against any “flaw” that a doctor could have, a criminal record is even worse.

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

First of all, congratulations on getting clean and staying sober. Keep up the good fight.

Second thing, were you ever charged with a felony, even if it was dropped? If yes, and unless you got out of it by being declared not guilty by a judge/jury, please pick another profession. Eventually you will hit a roadblock that you can’t get past, and the further along you have yes-men (or women) saying you should keep trying, the more debt and time you will have put into a profession that ultimately will not let you practice independently.

Anyways, I think the important thing here is the optics of the charges themselves. A heroin charge, a two year gap, then a charge for a violent crime looks pretty horrible. In my mind, there is a hierarchy to how those things are viewed, from starting with the worst…sex crimes/aggravated violent crimes > armed robbery > dealing hard drugs/unarmed robbery/burglary of occupied structure/less severe violent crimes > using hard drugs/dealing weed > DUI > theft (but NOT burglary of occupied structure or robbery) > writing bad checks/misdemeanor financial crimes > marijuana possession > minor in possession of alcohol

And of course felony >>> misdemeanor.

OP has two crimes towards the top of that list and was likely initially charged with possession with intent to distribute or something worse than possession of heroin if they got “lucky.”

And let’s remember, the question here isn’t whether medicine should be forgiving of people’s pasts, it is will medicine in 2021 forgive you. And unfortunately the answer is no.

If people don’t believe me, go look at the number of states that require you to disclose well controlled depression or anxiety with no history of hospitalization, no history of suicidality, stable psychiatric treatment for years, etc. That is the level of stigma against any “flaw” that a doctor could have, a criminal record is even worse.

I was not charged with a felony or intent to distribute at any time whatsoever. I initially had charges for my own personal medication which I had with me at the time. Those were dropped because, ya'know, they were my personal medication which I had a prescription for at the time.

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

I agree there are plenty of docs with convictions in the system as I helped several applicants with convictions, but here we have exacerbating circumstances:
1) two convictions across different classes: a drug conviction and a violence conviction
2) multiple charges leading to a single drug conviction. were any of those for dealing? were they dropped due to plea? circumstances matter here

A single conviction for either drug or domestic violence would be an easier circumstance to overcome. Even two drug convictions for similar offenses, either showing substance abuse issues or two for domestic violence showing being in abusive relationship, with of course either circumstance being sometime ago with appropriate rehab and/or therapy, would be easier to explain and recover from.

Thinking out loud here, if these two convictions can be related as to one over arching situation, as being in an long-term abusive relationship with a substance abusing SO, that would be a more palatable way to acceptable by adcoms.

No extra charges for dealing or anything. I initially was charged for possession of a medication that I was prescribed at the time. After that was realized, it was dropped.

 

[Goro]

Let's get some more opinions
@LizzyM
@gyngyn
@Moko
@lord999
@Angus Avagadro
@LunaOri
@wysdoc
@Maimonides1
@Mr.Smile12
@Pathdocmd
@Catalystic

 

[LizzyM]

Heroin and domestic violence... that application is going nowhere.

 

[Med Ed]

I agree there are plenty of docs with convictions in the system as I helped several applicants with convictions, but here we have exacerbating circumstances:
1) two convictions across different classes: a drug conviction and a violence conviction
2) multiple charges leading to a single drug conviction. were any of those for dealing? were they dropped due to plea? circumstances matter here

You're assuming the convictions would be disclosed as part of the application process, and I'm assuming they would not (pending successful expungement in or after 2026). OP could choose not to complete secondary applications that are more probing than AMCAS with regard to criminal record.

I agree with your thinking aloud (while typing), both of these convictions could be folded into a single narrative if necessary. Everyone loves redemption.

 

[Maimonides1]

Everyone deserve a path to redemption.., but unfortunately in the medical field it’s hard to begin on this path due to the sensitivity of dealing with human lives and unlimited supply of drugs etc.., we already have problems with physician’s addiction and diversion issues..!!

Expungements of records for public searches is a joke.., it will always be there and available to legal system, law enforcement and licensure checks..!!

Advise OP to own it, be ethical in your disclosures and explore other options.

 

[lord999]

Heroin and domestic violence... that application is going nowhere.

Agreed. DOA at both institutions where I am at.

Also, in 2020 AMCAS started being more lenient on expunged but it's state specific. Page 24 in the guide.

If the heroin is a federal misdemeanor, you're not getting that expunged.

 

[Redpancreas]

Pure speculation but could OP go to the medical board in her home state and run a pre-commitment screen with them to see if she would earn her medical license barring absolutely clean record starting after her last conviction? Is there any way to simulate the process? If there is not, there should be...

OP, this thread has a lot accumulated wisdom and the conclusions on all the details are murky seems but I think the main consensus to summarize some of it I think is:

1.) You probably need to wait a while. Some of those convictions are still fresh. Try doing something else you’re passionate about and if the itch is still there in maybe 3-4 years, start prepping an application.

2.) I don’t think Leigh Sundem was an anomaly but a peek into how unforgiving the system would be which many here seem to confirm. If it was me, I believe in second/third/fourth/fifth chances because that’s sometimes what it takes for someone to make a change but that’s not how these places think. If you go through medical school and finish, you’re likely looking at a specialty that doesn’t have an abundance of near-perfect applicants. Internal Medicine, Family Medicine are both probably options. You would also need to pass things and generally be on your best behavior in medical school.

3. Even if #1/#2 work, something still may go wrong despite all that. If you’re willing to take that risk go for it and we will all be cheering for you at the finish line. Like someone else said, I would personally find something else to do with my life. Also, one tendency that always brings pain is comparing yourself to someone else who was successful and asking yourself how come you’re getting all this criticism and they are not. Who knows what they did/have that they’re not telling you.

 

[Warder]

I know someone who was in a somewhat similar situations, but only one drug charge for a hard drug, followed by rehab and sobriety. That individual spent over a decade after getting clean working with others struggling with drug addiction in a professional capacity before applying to medical school.

That individual was quickly rejected at most schools, even after a decade of working in rehab and helping others get clean with not so much as a speeding ticket in that time. They did get into a school that rewards reinvention, but most schools refused to look at them.

 

[lanadelgay124]

That individual was quickly rejected at most schools, even after a decade of working in rehab and helping others get clean with not so much as a speeding ticket in that time. They did get into a school that rewards reinvention, but most schools refused to look at them.

From what I've read, attaining a residency is by far the bigger (and higher stakes) hurdle. I believe that the kindest and most accurate advice here is to choose another career that is similarly helpful but less unforgiving.

OP, I'm proud of you for where you're at, and would hate for you to subject yourself to a path that will likely be emotionally and financially demoralizing given your record.

 

[LunaOri]

A few points for me:
1. Less than 2 years sober? No way! If you are determined to be a physician, wait until your record has been expunged and your convictions are far in the past.
2. While you are waiting, create an impeccable application: you want to show many years of service to the underprivileged, and stellar recommendations from well-respected physicians and professors.
3. You will need to be prepared to move to a state which will allow you to be licensed.
4. You will need to consider a specialty (pathology, diagnostic radiology) that does not require you to have a DEA license.
5. The main thing psychiatrists do that psychologists don’t do is to prescribe drugs. (Why do you want to be a psychiatrist, specifically?)

 

[YCAGA]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the background check process for state medical licensure in many states is to a depth only surpassed by a background check for federal law enforcement/federal security clearance. State medical boards have the ability to open expunged and sealed convictions that a "normal" background check for a corporate job would not uncover. I don't think expungement really matters in this case. They will find it no matter what. The only real way out of a situation like this would be to get the conviction overturned completely, like if you could prove the police planted the drugs, you were forced to give a confession, ineffective counsel, etc.

Of course, I am NOT a lawyer...but you should talk to a lawyer that specializes in employment law. Ideally someone that has experience with clients that want to get a security clearance while having a criminal history. They will know what truly can be expunged/hidden, and can look over the wording of state medical licensure forms for you to see what actually needs to be disclosed.

 

[YCAGA]

And to echo what @LunaOri said, agencies like the DEA and ATF basically make up their own interpretation of the law, normally in a pretty prohibitive way*, so you would need to do a specialty that doesn't require a DEA license. I think only pathology would work in that case, but I am not sure if you can do an intern year without being on your hospital's DEA training license.

*Prohibitive as in the ATF tries to make as many guns and gun parts illegal as they can through extra-legislative regulation, and the DEA tries to make as many drugs illegal as they can, and they both try to restrict access to legal drugs/guns as much as they can. Just my personal opinion though.

 

[Flareicus]

Congratulations on your sobriety, that's an incredible achievement alone.

Unfortunately, I think medicine would be too risky of a career for you to undertake given your record, and the advice that faculty has given you about pursuing a different field is probably the most sound path. However, if you decide to press on, you need to be incredibly cognizant of the potential pitfalls that you may encounter. You won't have room for error at any step of your medical education. I'm certain that I'm probably missing things, but here are a few problems that come to mind immediately.

1. Competitiveness: Your application is radioactive until at the very least 2026 when your misdemeanors are expunged. Medical school is already incredibly difficult to get into now, and it will get harder by the time you're ready to apply. This also applies to residency applications as well; psychiatry is increasingly becoming a more and more competitive specialty and it won't get any easier during the years you're going to be forced to sit out. You're going to have to make sure you have an absolutely stellar GPA and MCAT. The silver lining of being forced to wait until 2026 means that you will at least have significant time to build up your extracurricular profile.
2. Potential AAMC policy changes: Five years is a long time in terms of med school apps and definitely opens the door to policy changes during that time. If there are any significant changes to the rules regarding reporting misdemeanors, your application might become DOA during the years that you're preparing.
3. Limited schools: As stated in another anecdote in this thread, even after your misdemeanors are expunged, you will be facing schools that won't even consider your application. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any clear list of which institutions will view your application this way. When it's time to submit your application, you will have to apply to a very broad school list with the understanding that a large proportion of schools will not even touch your application.
4. Limited residency/specialty options: Even after expungement, you will have to report your misdemeanors when applying to residencies. This will limit you in terms of what residencies and what specialties you will be able to pursue. Beyond just the stigma of your convictions, you are going to face hurdles in regards to obtaining a license to practice as well as DEA clearance. You mention that you're interested in psychiatry but that is a specialty in which you will have to overcome all of these difficulties. Would you still want to pursue medicine if you aren't able to match into psychiatry and are forced into a different specialty?

 

[YCAGA]

Because it has been mentioned in this thread, psychologists also have to be licensed by a state board and pass a rigorous background check. Same goes for other healthcare professionals and people who work with children. These background checks might not be as rigorous as for physicians (I don't know...hopefully they are though), but I would assume until strongly proven otherwise that healthcare and fields working with minors are not possible with a history of a domestic violence conviction. The possession of heroin is not as concerning to me personally, but I am not a member of any state medical board...

 

[LizzyM]

I have a vague recollection that a henious crime by a medical student who had a record of domestic violence before matriculation is what drove the AAMC decision to recommend that schools run a criminal background check (CBC) on all incoming students. Some states go further and require a CBC.

 

[Detailsmatter]

Just an MS2 and you’ve gotten tons of advice from other very qualified individuals but congratulations for your sobriety first and foremost. I think the best thing to do is find and talk to as many attorneys that you can find that deal with medical licensing to see if anyone has experience with someone getting licensed after a similar criminal history as yourself. After your records are expunged your attorney will most likely tell you that you don’t have to disclose them during your application to med school and that they won’t come up on a background check if they’re truly expunged (definition of expungement varies by state). Even if they’re expunged licensing will be the biggest hurdle because everything is disclosed/uncovered which is why I recommend talking to as many attorneys all over the country to find someone with similar case experience. Good luck and I wish you well with your continued sobriety

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

Agreed. DOA at both institutions where I am at.

Also, in 2020 AMCAS started being more lenient on expunged but it's state specific. Page 24 in the guide.

If the heroin is a federal misdemeanor, you're not getting that expunged.

It is certainly available for expungement after 2 years of probation and 5 years following that.
My attorney and I are actually going to court once courthouses are open in-person to see about getting these charges dropped or sealed/expunged early.

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

Heroin and domestic violence... that application is going nowhere.

Why? How? What do you advise?

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

Pointless comment.
Why? How? What do you advise?

There is not a single LCME medical school which will look past someone with DV on their record. Drug charges you could potentially get around, but domestic violence is not something anyone will touch, as you WILL need to report these records when applying for a medical license. There is no advise to give, find a different career.

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

There is not a single LCME medical school which will look past someone with DV on their record. Drug charges you could potentially get around, but domestic violence is not something anyone will touch, as you WILL need to report these records when applying for a medical license. There is no advise to give, find a different career.

Why do you say that drug charges are easier to get around than domestic violence charges?
Also, I am planning to go back to court with my attorney to see about getting this charge dropped. Would this make a difference? What about expungement or getting the charge sealed? Why or why not? Thank you for your help.

 

[LizzyM]

I was asked to comment by Goro. I think it is obvious to anyone with two brain cells why a medical school application showing criminal convictions for heroin possession and domestic violence would get no traction. How do I know this? 25 years of professional experience in admissions and even longer on the medical school faculty.

I advise what many others here have said; find another career.

Pointless comment.
Why? How? What do you advise?

 

[CorgiLoaf]

Why do you say that drug charges are easier to get around than domestic violence charges?
Also, I am planning to go back to court with my attorney to see about getting this charge dropped. Would this make a difference? What about expungement or getting the charge sealed? Why or why not? Thank you for your help.

Because one scenario involves you (mostly) harming yourself while the other involves you harming someone else. In a field where you're supposed to be helping others, you can see why the latter is worse than the former.

You need to scrape together all the money you can, hire the best attorneys you could, and see if you can get the DV charges dropped with prejudice. You might be able to match with a 4th-degree possession misdemeanor, but no hospital is going to touch anyone with a record of violence.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

Why do you say that drug charges are easier to get around than domestic violence charges?
Also, I am planning to go back to court with my attorney to see about getting this charge dropped. Would this make a difference? What about expungement or getting the charge sealed? Why or why not? Thank you for your help.

I'm going to get flak for saying this, but your one and only option is to get those records expunged, check with your attorney about who can see said expunged records, and go from there while pretending that these convictions did not exist. You would be lying to AAMC and your state medical boards, so once again check who exactly can see records. I understand that some gov't organizations can still see them, (big one being the VA), but I am not your attorney and I have no idea about the specifics. Applying to medical school, and going on record with the AAMC as having any convictions will result in zero acceptances.

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

I was asked to comment by Goro. I think it is obvious to anyone with two brain cells why a medical school application showing criminal convictions for heroin possession and domestic violence would get no traction. How do I know this? 25 years of professional experience in admissions and even longer on the medical school faculty.

I advise what many others here have said; find another career.

Why: Is there a question regarding criminal charges and/or expungement asked on most applications? Interviews? I have heard that applications sometimes get trashed when they're scanned for keywords/answers. Is this true?
How: How are these questions asked specifically? Can medical schools and residency programs see expunged or sealed charges? How is that done?

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

Because one scenario involves you (mostly) harming yourself while the other involves you harming someone else. In a field where you're supposed to be helping others, you can see why the latter is worse than the former.

You need to scrape together all the money you can, hire the best attorneys you could, and see if you can get the DV charges dropped with prejudice. You might be able to match with a 4th-degree possession misdemeanor, but no hospital is going to touch anyone with a record of violence.

Thank you for giving such a detailed answer! I am actually going back to court with my attorney once the courthouses reopen to see about getting that charge dropped. It was almost dropped that year, but I did not understand the gravity of the situation and foolishly didn't pursue it much then.

 

[YCAGA]

It would be difficult and a gamble to find a medical school, residency program, and state medical board that believe drug use should not be criminalized and clean and sober former users should be given a second chance in life. But, it’s conceivable to find places/people like that in very liberal parts of the country, especially in 10-20 years when you need them to give you a second chance. They might even buy that a former addict is uniquely suited to help treat current addicts.

But no one at any point is going to be lenient about domestic violence. That’s the major issue here.

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

Congratulations on your sobriety, that's an incredible achievement alone.

Unfortunately, I think medicine would be too risky of a career for you to undertake given your record, and the advice that faculty has given you about pursuing a different field is probably the most sound path. However, if you decide to press on, you need to be incredibly cognizant of the potential pitfalls that you may encounter. You won't have room for error at any step of your medical education. I'm certain that I'm probably missing things, but here are a few problems that come to mind immediately.

1. Competitiveness: Your application is radioactive until at the very least 2026 when your misdemeanors are expunged. Medical school is already incredibly difficult to get into now, and it will get harder by the time you're ready to apply. This also applies to residency applications as well; psychiatry is increasingly becoming a more and more competitive specialty and it won't get any easier during the years you're going to be forced to sit out. You're going to have to make sure you have an absolutely stellar GPA and MCAT. The silver lining of being forced to wait until 2026 means that you will at least have significant time to build up your extracurricular profile.
2. Potential AAMC policy changes: Five years is a long time in terms of med school apps and definitely opens the door to policy changes during that time. If there are any significant changes to the rules regarding reporting misdemeanors, your application might become DOA during the years that you're preparing.
3. Limited schools: As stated in another anecdote in this thread, even after your misdemeanors are expunged, you will be facing schools that won't even consider your application. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any clear list of which institutions will view your application this way. When it's time to submit your application, you will have to apply to a very broad school list with the understanding that a large proportion of schools will not even touch your application.
4. Limited residency/specialty options: Even after expungement, you will have to report your misdemeanors when applying to residencies. This will limit you in terms of what residencies and what specialties you will be able to pursue. Beyond just the stigma of your convictions, you are going to face hurdles in regards to obtaining a license to practice as well as DEA clearance. You mention that you're interested in psychiatry but that is a specialty in which you will have to overcome all of these difficulties. Would you still want to pursue medicine if you aren't able to match into psychiatry and are forced into a different specialty?

Yes, I would still pursue medicine if I was forced into a different specialty.
Thank you so, so much for such a detailed reply! This is one of the best responses I have gotten so far and I truly appreciate your help. I am generally clueless as to what effect these misdemeanors would have on each step in this path, and you have done a great job explaining. Thank you.

 

[Banco]

Your DV charge is self defense based? If so, it really sucks that'll be held against you...

 

[TheFutureDoctor9]

Are you saying that I would have to disclose my charges because questions are specifically asked regarding them? Or just because honesty is the best policy? Also, would this still be the case if the charges were expunged, dismissed, or sealed?
Also, do you have any examples of careers to consider? Besides psychology (and I do NOT want to be a therapist—I am far more interested in medicine), I am not too sure what the options are.

Yes, you have to disclose if you are asked. Even if you are not asked, it would be better to disclose.
This is because if they figure out you lied they will definitely kick you out. If they find out you kept it from them (but didn't lie), they still might kick you out. And if you are kicked out, you will find it very difficult if not impossible to get admission elsewhere.

 

[YCAGA]

Your DV charge is self defense based? If so, it really sucks that'll be held against you...

The courts exist to work that out if OP is not guilty of the charge. Medical boards do not and should not make extrajudicial judgements on whether or not she actually committed domestic violence. If she was convicted of it, the board has to assume she did it.

You have to keep these situations framed in a patient-centric mindset. Medical license boards exist to protect patients, NOT to license doctors (sounds like silly semantics but it is important). What would happen if someone with a history of DV was given a medical license and then was violent with a patient? Imagine if the medical board said “well the doctor said they beat their partner in self defense so we thought the DV conviction was worth overlooking. How were we supposed to know they were lying?”

 

[CorgiLoaf]

Are you truly not capable of understanding my questions? I'll break it down.
Why: Is there a question regarding criminal charges and/or expungement asked on most applications? Interviews? I have heard that applications sometimes get trashed when they're scanned for keywords/answers. Is this true?
How: How are these questions asked specifically? Can medical schools and residency programs see expunged or sealed charges? How is that done?

Here is the question asked on a state medical licensing application. The definitions make it pretty clear you have to report.

The AMCAS does not require you to disclose expunged convictions. Medical schools cannot see expunged records (their Certiphi background check can't access those), but they might be able to see you were arrested. You could get into medical school because they won't know. However...

Government agencies (e.g. FBI) and professional licensing boards (e.g. for medical licenses) do have access to your expunged records. Their background checks WILL be able to access those. So even if you finish medical school and take on 300k of debt, you might not be able to match into residency and/or get a medical license to practice. These questions can only be answered by an experienced lawyer.

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

Your DV charge is self defense based? If so, it really sucks that'll be held against you...

Yes. My now-ex-boyfriend bought me alcohol (I was underage) and then beat the hell out of me. I screamed, gave him a few scratches, and he called the police to get out of it all. I had nearly black bruises the size of my hands and he had a few scratches on his face. I got charged and he got off scot free. He then consistently stalked me for about a year afterwards.

 

[Flareicus]

I'm going to get flak for saying this, but your one and only option is to get those records expunged, check with your attorney about who can see said expunged records, and go from there while pretending that these convictions did not exist. You would be lying to AAMC and your state medical boards, so once again check who exactly can see records. I understand that some gov't organizations can still see them, (big one being the VA), but I am not your attorney and I have no idea about the specifics. Applying to medical school, and going on record with the AAMC as having any convictions will result in zero acceptances.

Ignoring the ethical concerns regarding doing this, doing that would be an incredibly large risk. There are so many loose ends that may exist even if her records are expunged.

Not only would she have to lie on her AMCAS, she would have to lie on every residency application and job application afterwards. If any one of those entities find the discrepancy, her medical career is over, likely with hundreds of thousands in debt and no institutional support.