Do people here still hate California Northstate?

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I know, but it's also kind of crappy that parents (and students) are buying into a model that excludes those who cannot afford to pay just so their little darlings can have a CA MD, so yeah, I hope it fails, and that its failure acts as a disincentive in the future. These are all students who were not accepted into any other MD program, kind of by definition, so I'm not sure what entitlement its students have to not be put into a kind of crappy position.

You know who is also in a crappy position? -- everyone who want to go to MD school in CA and cannot afford to go to CNU without federal loans, that's who! Who is crying for them, besides me??

Probably because the rest of us don’t wish that their school would close down leaving them in debt with no degree and no guarantee of getting to continue training.

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[deleted962973]

I think you missed my point. It wasn't that the school is being dishonest with anyone, it is that no reputable person with ethics wants to limit access to a medical education to those who can afford it, and most people do not want access to the profession controlled by those with nothing but a profit motive.

Like others here, I have no personal ill will towards anyone who chooses CNU, but I hope the school fails because I think its success will lead to the degradation of the profession. As has been pointed out multiple times on multiple threads, we candidates are nothing but inputs into the medical education machine. Unfortunately, in this case, this means CNU graduates need to fail in the marketplace in order for the school's business model to fail. (i.e., Parents who can afford it think they have a found a solution to their precious offspring's inability to be accepted into an American MD program. If 10 years from now it turns out CNU grads on average have worse outcomes than graduates from the better DO programs, CNU's overlords might have a problem filling a class with the children of full pay ORM physicians who will be in a position to know that the school's business model is not addressing their problem, and they will go to gap years and reputable programs like the rest of us. I have no way to know whether this will happen, but one can dream. )

First of all, CNU is an accredited MD program. Second, when the interest rate on federal loans is approaching 7%, taking private loans may be cheaper in the long run, especially if you don’t qualify/want to do PSLF (which almost no one gets anyway). So I’m not sure why you’ve made it out to be that everyone who goes to CNU is an entitled rich brat, but stop.

It’s shameful to hope that a medical school and its future doctors fail, especially a school in the most populated state in the country with a worsening physician shortage. Frankly, this thread stopped being a criticism of CNU long ago and has just started to be hateful.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

We are into class warfare now? Let's all vote for Bernie and get everything for free.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

We are into class warfare now? Let's all vote for Bernie and get everything for free.

Let’s not go there please.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

What is the big deal about the absence of federal loans? Here is a private loan company that offers fixed rate loans at 6.76% to medical students without a cosigner.

CommonBond

www.commonbond.co

Furthermore, the tuition at CNSU (approximately $60,000 per year) is significantly cheaper than the tuition charged at many other private medical schools and is way cheaper than the tuition charged to nonresidents at places like Illinois and Michigan State.

I suspect that much of the antipathy towards CNSU stems from a general loathing of capitalism among undergraduates, who have just spent four years in a left wing echo chamber, and the fear among preclinical teachers that CNSU will run lean and mean. All of this hysteria about a for profit school is reminiscent of the uproar caused by Rocky Vista. I don't see Rocky Vista graduates standing on street corners asking for spare change and my guess is that you won't see CNSU graduates mopping floors. After all, the Caribbean schools are for profit and they have been placing their graduates in U.S. residency programs for decades.

 

[KnightDoc]

First of all, CNU is an accredited MD program. Second, when the interest rate on federal loans is approaching 7%, taking private loans may be cheaper in the long run, especially if you don’t qualify/want to do PSLF (which almost no one gets anyway). So I’m not sure why you’ve made it out to be that everyone who goes to CNU is an entitled rich brat, but stop.

It’s shameful to hope that a medical school and its future doctors fail, especially a school in the most populated state in the country with a worsening physician shortage. Frankly, this thread stopped being a criticism of CNU long ago and has just started to be hateful.

The interest rate is only part of the equation. The need for a good credit score, loan forgiveness, forbearance, modification, income contingent repayment options, etc. are also part of the equation. CNU is not doing anyone any favors, and heaven help us all if it becomes a model for relieving the physician shortage in the US.

And everyone who goes there is not only lucky enough to come from a family that has the ability to fund things that not all families can (not necessarily rich, or entitled, or brats), but they also arguably shouldn't be in a US MD program if the for-profit one that can't accept federal loans is the only one that wanted them.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

The interest rate is only part of the equation. The need for a good credit score, loan forgiveness, forbearance, modification, income contingent repayment options, etc. are also part of the equation. CNU is not doing anyone any favors, and heaven help us all if it becomes a model for relieving the physician shortage in the US.

And everyone who goes there is not only lucky enough to come from a family that has the ability to fund things that not all families can (not necessarily rich, or entitled, or brats), but they also arguably shouldn't be in a US MD program if the for-profit one that can't accept federal loans is the only one that wanted them.

Based on the stats I have seen, probably majority of the CNU matriculants can get into DO schools, but they can afford to go full pay and opt for MD. So isn't it good for those who are competing for DO that one private for-profit school reduced competition? so if you have CNU MD and a DO which one will you take? I know you are not yet ready to apply.

 

[deleted962973]

The interest rate is only part of the equation. The need for a good credit score, loan forgiveness, forbearance, modification, income contingent repayment options, etc. are also part of the equation. CNU is not doing anyone any favors, and heaven help us all if it becomes a model for relieving the physician shortage in the US.

And everyone who goes there is not only lucky enough to come from a family that has the ability to fund things that not all families can (not necessarily rich, or entitled, or brats), but they also arguably shouldn't be in a US MD program if the for-profit one that can't accept federal loans is the only one that wanted them.

Again, the fact that you keep resorting to shaming the students is unnecessary.

I completely disagree. CA ORMs are often incredibly qualified but even their state schools are T10/T5 schools like UCLA and UCSF. Others, like UCR, exclude even native Californians if they aren’t from the region UCR is looking to serve. If a CA student isn’t private school/T20 material (which many med students aren’t), they don’t even have state schools to fall back on. I would rather something be done about the physician shortage in California than nothing, even if that solution is imperfect. The ideal would be for the UC system to expand and open up less competitive schools aimed at primary care, but I don’t know of that happening anytime soon.

Speaking of loans, you’re the one hoping that students in debt go unmatched just so that CNU can fail. The main advantage federal loans offer over private loans is IBR, considering most federal loan forgiveness programs are deeply broken and basically nonfunctional (other than maybe NHC?). It is definitely a detriment to not have access to IBR for students. However, CNU’s tuition is reasonably priced, especially compared to some MDs which charge $100K/year in tuition alone to OOS students. The COA there over 4 years seems repayable on a physician salary. I dont think it’s as evil as you’re making it out to be. Its a last resort yes, but at least it gives some students an option at all.

 

[ThatGIguy]

I know, but it's also kind of crappy that parents (and students) are buying into a model that excludes those who cannot afford to pay just so their little darlings can have a CA MD, so yeah, I hope it fails, and that its failure acts as a disincentive in the future. These are all students who were not accepted into any other MD program, kind of by definition, so I'm not sure what entitlement its students have to not be put into a kind of crappy position.

You know who is also in a crappy position? -- everyone who want to go to MD school in CA and cannot afford to go to CNU without federal loans, that's who! Who is crying for them, besides me??

This is just a despicable comment and you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Regardless of the ethics of the school, they are still training physicians who will make a difference in our community. If you have a problem, quit complaining and make your own medical school for gods sake! The world is unfortunately not a “fair place”, and it is unfortunate that if you don’t come from a “family that can fund your education” as you say and you cannot attend CNUCOM, but there are plenty of other medical schools to choose from! You don’t have to focus on one and whine about not being able to attend due to personal economics. The fact of the matter is that there are a lot of programs for disadvantaged students to take advantage of (you even get brownie points for that on AMCAS), so this one school should not deter anyone from attending a US medical school

 

[KnightDoc]

Based on the stats I have seen, probably majority of the CNU matriculants can get into DO schools, but they can afford to go full pay and opt for MD. So isn't it good for those who are competing for DO that one private for-profit school reduced competition? so if you have CNU MD and a DO which one will you take? I know you are not yet ready to apply.

I have no interest in for-profit schools, for philosophical reasons! I really would hate to go somewhere where maybe my attendance was made possible because someone more qualified simply could not afford to attend (which is very different from being able to attend, but choosing not to spend the money).

I get why you defend the business model, but I think your comments are a little disingenuous because I think you really do get it, and I don't think there is any chance in a million years you would ever allow your kid to go to CNU.

The irony is that, apparently, everyone at CNU is playing themselves since it seems that nobody there is fooling anyone, and, while you note most folks there could probably go DO, it turns out its match list looks just like one from a DO, so they are apparently not getting the MD benefit they seek!

To directly answer your question, no, I don't think it's a good thing for a for profit school to be skimming a few full pay students away from the not for profit sector. There is no meaningful reduction in competition, but there is a draining of dollars into the pocket of investors and away from non profits actually fulfilling a mission.

As for me, although I am not ready to apply, I still have high aspirations. Consequently, like your son, I don't anticipate applying DO in my first (and hopefully only) cycle. Also like your son (I suspect), I would never apply to CNU because it won't be able to prove itself during my time horizon, and I didn't post what I posted only to be provocative; I really do believe it. And, no, I have no idea whether it will succeed, fail or be bought out, but I do think in the short and intermediate term there will be a stigma attached to graduating from the only for profit that only attracts people with no other MD options (this has so far been borne out by the first match results), and this is notwithstanding what the proud parent cheerleaders come on here to state.

If I am unsuccessful, I will include DO in my next cycle, and will never have the opportunity to take CNU because I would never waste the time and money applying. The posts on CC a few years ago from the parent whose kid was accepted to their BS/MD program, after which they started repeatedly harassing him for their significant, non-refundable deposit even after he turned down their offer was a real turn off for me and told me all I needed to know about CNU.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I have no interest in for-profit schools, for philosophical reasons! I really would hate to go somewhere where maybe my attendance was made possible because someone more qualified simply could not afford to attend (which is very different from being able to attend, but choosing not to spend the money).

I get why you defend the business model, but I think your comments are a little disingenuous because I think you really do get it, and I don't think there is any chance in a million years you would ever allow your kid to go to CNU.

The irony is that, apparently, everyone at CNU is playing themselves since it seems that nobody there is fooling anyone, and, while you note most folks there could probably go DO, it turns out its match list looks just like one from a DO, so they are apparently not getting the MD benefit they seek!

To directly answer your question, no, I don't think it's a good thing for a for profit school to be skimming a few full pay students away from the not for profit sector. There is no meaningful reduction in competition, but there is a draining of dollars into the pocket of investors and away from non profits actually fulfilling a mission.

As for me, although I am not ready to apply, I still have high aspirations. Consequently, like your son, I don't anticipate applying DO in my first (and hopefully only) cycle. Also like your son (I suspect), I would never apply to CNU because it won't be able to prove itself during my time horizon, and I didn't post what I posted only to be provocative; I really do believe it. And, no, I have no idea whether it will succeed, fail or be bought out, but I do think in the short and intermediate term there will be a stigma attached to graduating from the only for profit that only attracts people with no other MD options (this has so far been borne out by the first match results), and this is notwithstanding what the proud parent cheerleaders come on here to state.

If I am unsuccessful, I will include DO in my next cycle, and will never have the opportunity to take CNU because I would never waste the time and money applying. The posts on CC a few years ago from the parent whose kid was accepted to their BS/MD program, after which they started repeatedly harassing him for their significant, non-refundable deposit even after he turned down their offer was a real turn off for me and told me all I needed to know about CNU.

I am not disingenuous at all. If my son wants to stay in CA and prefers to have MD degree over DO and that's the only A he has I have no issues sending him and lucky enough to have means to pay fully. I am seriously hoping that won't be the case (especially after giving up T30 BSMD) As per the match list, it's a new school so can't expect them to match into top tier immediately.

I know kids who are doing BSMD at CNU and I strongly think that was a mistake (because they don't have full fledged MD program) but again it's parents choice and I respect that.

I doubt that there is any stigma from attending a for-profit school. Lot of FMGs and Caribbean grads are from for-profits schools and they all have successful careers.

 

[KnightDoc]

I am not disingenuous at all. If my son wants to stay in CA and prefers to have MD degree over DO and that's the only A he has I have no issues sending him and lucky enough to have means to pay fully. I am seriously hoping that won't be the case (especially after giving up T30 BSMD) As per the match list, it's a new school so can't expect them to match into top tier immediately.

I know kids who are doing BSMD at CNU and I strongly think that was a mistake (because they don't have full fledged MD program) but again it's parents choice and I respect that.

I doubt that there is any stigma from attending a for-profit school. Lot of FMGs and Caribbean grads are from for-profits schools and they all have successful careers.

Yeah, well, based on what I know of you and your son, he won't be in that position. I respect your saying this, although it makes absolutely no sense to say that attending its BS/MD program is a mistake, and crappy matches are to be expected from a new school, but you'd have no problem sending your son there over a more established DO program.

I really, really think your kid will be looking at T20 or T30, if not better, but even if I'm wrong, I'm calling BS because there is no way your kid's best choice will ever be CNU, so I think it's disingenuous for you to suggest you would ever send him there. He's not in CA now, and he won't need to go to med school in CA, even if he wants to eventually settle there, and you already know this, so it costs you nothing to insist that you would do something that you just know you will never be in a position to have to do! I am less certain of my outcome than I am of your son's (based on the quality of our relative achievements to date and the extent and quality of his parental involvement compared to mine ), and I know I would never end up at CNU!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Yeah, well, based on what I know of you and your son, he won't be in that position. I respect your saying this, although it makes absolutely no sense to say that attending its BS/MD program is a mistake, and crappy matches are to be expected from a new school, but you'd have no problem sending your son there over a more established DO program.

I really, really think your kid will be looking at T20 or T30, if not better, but even if I'm wrong, I'm calling BS because there is no way your kid's best choice will ever be CNU, so I think it's disingenuous for you to suggest you would ever send him there. He's not in CA now, and he won't need to go to med school in CA, even if he wants to eventually settle there, and you already know this, so it costs you nothing to insist that you would do something that you just know you will never be in a position to have to do! I am less certain of my outcome than I am of your son's (based on the quality of our relative achievements to date the extent and quality of his parental involvement compared to mine ), and I know I would never end up at CNU

My kid is looking at T5 but he also knows it's a crap shot! Regardless my point is I am open minded and my decision making is not based on for profit vs non-proit or federal loans etc... My goal is do whatever I can do to help him achieve his goals. My contribution is probably 1% so you are not missing much

 

[gyngyn]

I am reluctantly closing this thread.
A lot of important points have been covered and it has both historic as well as current impact.
Perhaps understandably, it is next to impossible to discuss this school dispassionately.