Do people here still hate California Northstate?

[deleted1011020]

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I’d like to share the following information on the class of 2023 which I gathered while attending the white coat ceremony in August. I am writing this to refute the negativity towards this school on SDN. I was fortunate to meet a number of these young adults and their parents. All of the students I met were very accomplished and talented and will likely make excellent doctors. The training at this school is strong which was reported to me by a number of parents who are physicians. At least 21 of the 96 students entering had at least one parent that was a physician (those parents got to put the coat on their kid).

The class seemed diverse with more people of color than caucasian. I extracted the following information about the class of 2023 (from the white coat brochure) for anyone who might be interested. There were 96 entering students and of these 96 students 51 came from UC schools and 6 came from one of the Cal State schools. 5 students came from state schools other than California. 12 came from California Northstate itself. The other 22 students came from a variety of private colleges and universities. The largest single source was UCD with 17 students. UCSD and UCLA each had 11 students. UCB had 5 students and UCSC, UCI and UCR each contributed 2. One student was from UCSB. Of the Cal States Cal Poly, Chico, Fresno and Sonoma each had 1 students and Long Beach had 2. The following non-California state school each had one student; Florida, Oregon, Washington, NC Chapel Hill and Fort Lewis (CO). From the private schools, USC, Cornell and BYU had 4,3 and 2 students respectively. The following private schools had one student each: Dartmouth, Chapman, Loyola Marymount, Carnegie Mellon, Santa Clara, St Marys Calif, Drexel, University of Rochester, Wash U St Louis, Scripps, Case Western, Pitzer and University of Chicago.

I am very glad my daughter is attending California Northstate. The administration is supportive and she is getting an excellent medical education. I write this to counter the unusual negativity towards this school due to its for profit status. Some of the parents I spoke with work or have worked in the UC system and they said that within UC there was as much fuss about income and outflow as in any for profit industry. California Northstate has passed it’s accreditation and is educating some talented kids. I hope this information is helpful to someone considering the school.

I'd just like to point out that you take what is your perceived racial and ethnic diversity but back it up with institutional and geographic diversity. MSAR shows a different picture. The school is not meeting the demographic needs/trends of the state of California.

 

[KnightDoc]

cough FL schools cough

I'll bite! What's wrong with FL schools???

 

[Med Ed]

California Northstate has passed it’s accreditation

Northstate graduated its first class while still in preliminary accreditation. That's atypical, and not in a good way.

The positive qualities of the students say more about the premedical environment in California than the school.

 

[deleted1011020]

I'll bite! What's wrong with FL schools???

I know its hard but I feel like the amount of hispanic students in some schools is extremely low given theyre in counties that have +20% hispanics.

 

[kahunas007]

Did not get an interview here, but would love to if given the chance. Thank you for giving more ORM a chance to stay in CA for med school for without it, they would have to go out of state. It is the STUDENTs that make the school. Keep nailing the Steps and pay no mind to the virtual cyber adcoms. LMFAO.

 

[KnightDoc]

I know its hard but I feel like the amount of hispanic students in some schools is extremely low given theyre in counties that have +20% hispanics.

I feel you, and I'm sure you're right, but schools really have to strike a balance between addressing diversity and still matriculating the best class possible. URMs clearly get some preference in the name of diversity (as evidenced by the fact their medians are lower than other groups), and that's a good thing, but lowering standards in order to map to the population is something else altogether. The alternative would be quotas based on demographics rather than merit, and, in the end, that wouldn't serve anyone's interests.

I PROMISE you the FL schools would love to increase their URM representation, and I'm sure the issue is that URMs with better stats and better applications have better choices than the FL schools. FL schools are apparently choosing not to dip lower into the pool in order to hit an artificial number based on local demographics, in order to not compromise the quality of their class.

Should the NBA be 72% white, regardless of talent, in order to map to the US population and give white college kids who can dribble the chance to become instant millionaires in proportion to their representation in society rather than their level of talent? If that happened, the NBA would no longer be the NBA, and, again, nobody's interests would be served.

If schools lowered standards in order to map student bodies to local demographics, over time there would be a stigma that would not help graduates in the marketplace. Plus, the schools would open themselves to lawsuits for discrimination against the more well qualified candidates who were passed over.

 

[wysdoc]

Northstate graduated its first class while still in preliminary accreditation. That's atypical, and not in a good way.

The positive qualities of the students say more about the premedical environment in California than the school.

@Med Ed how are the students in such a situation affected? Do they graduate with their MD anyway? I think UTRGV students will be facing this too, graduating while the school is in preliminary status.

 

[yungdoc]

I feel you, and I'm sure you're right, but schools really have to strike a balance between addressing diversity and still matriculating the best class possible. URMs clearly get some preference in the name of diversity (as evidenced by the fact their medians are lower than other groups), and that's a good thing, but lowering standards in order to map to the population is something else altogether. The alternative would be quotas based on demographics rather than merit, and, in the end, that wouldn't serve anyone's interests.

I PROMISE you the FL schools would love to increase their URM representation, and I'm sure the issue is that URMs with better stats and better applications have better choices than the FL schools. FL schools are apparently choosing not to dip lower into the pool in order to hit an artificial number based on local demographics, in order to not compromise the quality of their class.

Should the NBA be 72% white, regardless of talent, in order to map to the US population and give white college kids who can dribble the chance to become instant millionaires in proportion to their representation in society rather than their level of talent? If that happened, the NBA would no longer be the NBA, and, again, nobody's interests would be served.

If schools lowered standards in order to map student bodies to local demographics, over time there would be a stigma that would not help graduates in the marketplace. Plus, the schools would open themselves to lawsuits for discrimination against the more well qualified candidates who were passed over.

As a Spanish-speaking Latino applicant myself, I would argue that matriculating a class that is representative of the local community IS matriculating the "best" class. Where I work (and throughout the country), patients interact so differently (more relaxed, comfortable, expressive, etc...) with myself and other healthcare providers that speak their native language than with those who do not and I think that brings more value to a class than someone with a higher MCAT score would.

You haven't taken the MCAT yet, but you'll see that it's a silly metric to use to evaluate applicants and (likely) just exists to cut the applicant pool down. Like doing well on it legit just means you have a good short-term memory and are good at taking exams. It says nothing about your ability to work well in a team, show empathy, interact with patients and their families, lead, etc... (all qualities I would argue are equally as important as being good at taking exams).

Not to discredit those with super high stats, I just think that it's problematic when (potentially) lowering the average incoming MCAT/GPA of a class in an effort to diversify a class is seen as "compromising the quality of the class."

You are gonna be a great doc someday and it won't be because of your MCAT/GPA 🙂

 

[deleted1001426]

You haven't taken the MCAT yet, but you'll see that it's a silly metric to use to evaluate applicants and (likely) just exists to cut the applicant pool down. Like doing well on it legit just means you have a good short-term memory and are good at taking exams. It says nothing about your ability to work well in a team, show empathy, interact with patients and their families, lead, etc... (all qualities I would argue are equally as important as being good at taking exams).

You seem to misunderstand the process. It’s not that mcat and gpa are the only things which adcoms value, it’s that the applicant pool is so large that they don’t have to compromise and take those with lower stats in order to form a class comprised of people who, in your words, have the “ability to work well in a team, show empathy, interact with patients and their families, lead, etc.”

Also I’m completely with you on the mcat being flawed but doing well on it has next to nothing to do with your short term memory..contrary to popular belier if you’ve prepped properly for it you’ll have adequate time in each section to thoroughly read the passages and refer back to the passage while answering questions, avoiding much of the need for a “good short term memory”

 

[yungdoc]

You seem to misunderstand the process. It’s not that mcat and gpa are the only things which adcoms value, it’s that the applicant pool is so large that they don’t have to compromise and take those with lower stats in order to form a class comprised of people who, in your words, have the “ability to work well in a team, show empathy, interact with patients and their families, lead, etc.”

Also I’m completely with you on the mcat being flawed but doing well on it has next to nothing to do with your short term memory..contrary to popular belier if you’ve prepped properly for it you’ll have adequate time in each section to thoroughly read the passages and refer back to the passage while answering questions, avoiding much of the need for a “good short term memory”

I should have added language skills to my list of qualities because that's really the point I was trying to make since they were talking about the Hispanic representation in FL. It seems like Knightdoc was equating matriculating a more representative class with lowering standards (I think they are referring to stats). I was only trying to make the point that a lower MCAT score is fine in my book if the applicant has other qualities that bring value to a class. I don't know the exact number of people who score a 517+ from each racial demographic is. Maybe there are enough to fill every class. I don't know though.

Oh I meant short-term like over a span of weeks (prep time), not within a passage. I've probably forgotten 80% of what I knew for the MCAT and I took it 7 months ago.

 

[Med Ed]

@Med Ed how are the students in such a situation affected?

They aren't. From the student perspective preliminary accreditation is as good as provisional or full accreditation. The failure of the institution to progress on a more standard timeline suggests there are underlying issues. But at least they haven't been put on probation.

 

[deleted1011020]

I feel you, and I'm sure you're right, but schools really have to strike a balance between addressing diversity and still matriculating the best class possible. URMs clearly get some preference in the name of diversity (as evidenced by the fact their medians are lower than other groups), and that's a good thing, but lowering standards in order to map to the population is something else altogether. The alternative would be quotas based on demographics rather than merit, and, in the end, that wouldn't serve anyone's interests.

I PROMISE you the FL schools would love to increase their URM representation, and I'm sure the issue is that URMs with better stats and better applications have better choices than the FL schools. FL schools are apparently choosing not to dip lower into the pool in order to hit an artificial number based on local demographics, in order to not compromise the quality of their class.

Should the NBA be 72% white, regardless of talent, in order to map to the US population and give white college kids who can dribble the chance to become instant millionaires in proportion to their representation in society rather than their level of talent? If that happened, the NBA would no longer be the NBA, and, again, nobody's interests would be served.

If schools lowered standards in order to map student bodies to local demographics, over time there would be a stigma that would not help graduates in the marketplace. Plus, the schools would open themselves to lawsuits for discrimination against the more well qualified candidates who were passed over.

This isn't a sport though. Its a case where populations will be better served whether through greater trust or access. The people who go back to help the same communities that medical schools espouse to strive to serve sometimes fall into the category of "not the most competitive". Although n=1, the doctors I work with who work in prisons, work with underserved populations, etc are always hispanic and black.

The only reason i'm also so adamant about this is that time and time again we see such weak correlations when researching MCAT vs Step scores. I get having cutoffs, but at a certain point, reaching certain scores is a matter of "how much money do you have?".

Furthermore, on the discrimination bit. This is pretty ridiculous in my opinion. What is discrimination is the fact that if you're poor or even lower middle class, its pretty obvious how disadvantaged you are in this process. I know low SES isn't always just hispanic and black applicants, but it is largely the case where hispanic and black = low SES.

In my opinion, more can be done. Im not saying schools aren't striving for this, but right now the process is very far from perfect. I definitely get your point, but the numbers right now are no where near where they could be and to be honest, where they should be. Right now as it stands, theres no balance being struck. Going "full diversity" would be to accept URM applicants to catch up to and meet the future needs. Right now, students arent even being accepted to reflect present demographics.

Im applying right now with extremely average to below average stats but I work 40 to 60 hours a week (also had to while in school) just to keep my head above water in the area I live. Im willing to bet that I (along with others) will be passed over for applicants a few points higher who never had to work a day in their lives. This to me is absolutely absurd given the weak correlation between the difference in points vs Step scores.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Although n=1, the doctors I work with who work in prisons, work with underserved populations, etc are always hispanic and black.

You must not work with many doctors or you work in a unique community. There are plenty of white, middle eastern, and Asian doctors working with the underserved and in prisons. There are good reasons to recruit more URMs, but let’s not pretend like we need to because no one else will work with the underserved.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I’d like to share the following information on the class of 2023 which I gathered while attending the white coat ceremony in August. I am writing this to refute the negativity towards this school on SDN. I was fortunate to meet a number of these young adults and their parents. All of the students I met were very accomplished and talented and will likely make excellent doctors. The training at this school is strong which was reported to me by a number of parents who are physicians. At least 21 of the 96 students entering had at least one parent that was a physician (those parents got to put the coat on their kid).

The class seemed diverse with more people of color than caucasian. I extracted the following information about the class of 2023 (from the white coat brochure) for anyone who might be interested. There were 96 entering students and of these 96 students 51 came from UC schools and 6 came from one of the Cal State schools. 5 students came from state schools other than California. 12 came from California Northstate itself. The other 22 students came from a variety of private colleges and universities. The largest single source was UCD with 17 students. UCSD and UCLA each had 11 students. UCB had 5 students and UCSC, UCI and UCR each contributed 2. One student was from UCSB. Of the Cal States Cal Poly, Chico, Fresno and Sonoma each had 1 students and Long Beach had 2. The following non-California state school each had one student; Florida, Oregon, Washington, NC Chapel Hill and Fort Lewis (CO). From the private schools, USC, Cornell and BYU had 4,3 and 2 students respectively. The following private schools had one student each: Dartmouth, Chapman, Loyola Marymount, Carnegie Mellon, Santa Clara, St Marys Calif, Drexel, University of Rochester, Wash U St Louis, Scripps, Case Western, Pitzer and University of Chicago.

I am very glad my daughter is attending California Northstate. The administration is supportive and she is getting an excellent medical education. I write this to counter the unusual negativity towards this school due to its for profit status. Some of the parents I spoke with work or have worked in the UC system and they said that within UC there was as much fuss about income and outflow as in any for profit industry. California Northstate has passed it’s accreditation and is educating some talented kids. I hope this information is helpful to someone considering the school.

This doesn't refute anything.
Literally your post has nothing to do with why people talk negatively about the school:

The school still doesn't offer federal loans and financial aid to its students.
They're still involved in shady and non-transparent business. https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article234102712.html
Adding to that they had a very poor match list this year which was comparable to a typical DO school.

Until those are changed, negative comments will persist.

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile

 

[KnightDoc]

This doesn't refute anything.
Literally your post has nothing to do with why people talk negatively about the school:

The school still doesn't offer federal loans and financial aid to its students.
They're still involved in shady and non-transparent business. https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article234102712.html
Adding to that they had a very poor match list this year which was comparable to a typical DO school.

Until those are changed, negative comments will persist.

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile

Let's face it -- @parentofanaspiringdoc123 is only trying to get some SDN validation. CNU is a place for people who want a Cali MD and don't have any other options; nothing more and nothing less. It's a step above the Caribbean, but the fact that a parent with 4 posts sings its praises doesn't make it any more legit, and certainly isn't any more "helpful to someone considering the school" than knowing the simple fact that the people matriculating didn't have a better option and didn't want to wait another year. Instead of citing the litany of UGs that had applicants without a better option (shocking that students from some prestigious UGs have otherwise unsuccessful applicants in every cycle, as though that alone is validation for CNU's shady model), why not list every MD school in CA (or, any other place in the country!) that was turned down so that the students could go to CNU? 🙂

 

[deleted1011020]

You must not work with many doctors or you work in a unique community. There are plenty of white, middle eastern, and Asian doctors working with the underserved and in prisons. There are good reasons to recruit more URMs, but let’s not pretend like we need to because no one else will work with the underserved.

Yes I do work in a unique community. There is an issue with physicians/health care systems not delivering care to the underserved. Would it not be common sense that if we train mostly white, middle eastern, asian physicians and the underserved... are well, the underserved then is it a large conclusion to draw that those physicians are not in fact serving communities in need or am I wrong?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Yes I do work in a unique community. There is an issue with physicians/health care systems not delivering care to the underserved. Would it not be common sense that if we train mostly white, middle eastern, asian physicians and the underserved... are well, the underserved then is it a large conclusion to draw that those physicians are not in fact serving communities in need or am I wrong?

Edit: actually never mind. I would love to answer, but this is getting off topic and I don’t want to contribute to that. There are already tons of threads on this topic plus a whole forum for this kind of thing.

 

[ciestar]

This doesn't refute anything.
Literally your post has nothing to do with why people talk negatively about the school:

The school still doesn't offer federal loans and financial aid to its students.
They're still involved in shady and non-transparent business. https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article234102712.html
Adding to that they had a very poor match list this year which was comparable to a typical DO school.

Until those are changed, negative comments will persist.

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile

Also, no federal loans = no federal loan assistance/forgiveness programs (PSLF, IBR, PAYE, REPAYE, etc) after you graduate. Maybe this parent can pay to put their kid through school so they don’t care. For people like me, I got zero assistance from my parents.

You’re also right, their match list was mediocre for an MD school.

CNU’s status as a for-profit is also concerning. I have first hand experience on how badly that can end..

 

[deleted962973]

Also, no federal loans = no federal loan assistance/forgiveness programs (PSLF, IBR, PAYE, REPAYE, etc) after you graduate. Maybe this parent can pay to put their kid through school so they don’t care. For people like me, I got zero assistance from my parents.

You’re also right, their match list was mediocre for an MD school.

CNU’s status as a for-profit is also concerning. I have first hand experience on how badly that can end..

Is this about Hahnemann?

 

[Goro]

Is this about Hahnemann?

Yup

 

[parentofanaspiringdoc123]

I've responded to this thread because the "hate California Northstate" frightened me as my daughter pursued and ultimately entered this school. I hope that other students and parents will be reassured by my observations.

This school is a great choice for someone who wants to get an MD in California and isn't accepted to one of the UC schools. On the other hand if a student needs federally backed student loans then this school is not a good choice. The CNUCOM student body is an ethnically diverse group that is majority (talented) Asian Americans. There are more qualified applicants to medical schools than places and some super qualified applicants happen to be considered ethnically "over represented". It is both correct and honest to say that CNUCOM does NOT have many under represented minorities. It is, however, neither correct nor honest to compare the school to a Caribbean medical school.

CNUCOM remains a better choice than a DO school because there are still residencies that don't (sadly) take DO students. Also, there are still many people who don't even understand what a DO is.

CNUCOM has passed it's next phase of accreditation and students there are graduating from an ACCREDITED US MD medical school.

I've saved for years to help all of my children with higher education and I'm glad my daughter had this option. This school is not a good option for someone who needs federal loans but for certain students it is an awesome option.

The MCAT and Step one scores at this school are high because the students are smart. I anticipate that residency training directors will see these students for the talented competent doctors they are becoming. Beyond residency talented physicians continue to train and self educate.

As a result of attending CNUCOM my daughter is a short drive from the SF bay area (home) and the mountains where many of the students get student discount ski passes. She loves the outdoors and has endless year round outdoor opportunities when time from study allows.

The criticisms of CNUCOM's "business practices" are spurious. If one were looking at the school in an less biased way they would compare and contrast CNUCOM's business practices with the business practices of the "non-profit" schools in relation to their communities. Just ask the neighbors of UCSF (Laurel Heights or inner sunset) and see how fairly they have been treated. Ask the folks at Children's Hospital Oakland how the business practices of UCSF are working for them. All health-care entities are "for profit" even if they say they aren't.

The aforementioned information would have been helpful to me a year ago when my daughter was applying to schools and I share it with others in that spirit.

 

[KnightDoc]

I've responded to this thread because the "hate California Northstate" frightened me as my daughter pursued and ultimately entered this school. I hope that other students and parents will be reassured by my observations.

This school is a great choice for someone who wants to get an MD in California and isn't accepted to one of the UC schools. On the other hand if a student needs federally backed student loans then this school is not a good choice. The CNUCOM student body is an ethnically diverse group that is majority (talented) Asian Americans. There are more qualified applicants to medical schools than places and some super qualified applicants happen to be considered ethnically "over represented". It is both correct and honest to say that CNUCOM does NOT have many under represented minorities. It is, however, neither correct nor honest to compare the school to a Caribbean medical school.

CNUCOM remains a better choice than a DO school because there are still residencies that don't (sadly) take DO students. Also, there are still many people who don't even understand what a DO is.

CNUCOM has passed it's next phase of accreditation and students there are graduating from an ACCREDITED US MD medical school.

I've saved for years to help all of my children with higher education and I'm glad my daughter had this option. This school is not a good option for someone who needs federal loans but for certain students it is an awesome option.

The MCAT and Step one scores at this school are high because the students are smart. I anticipate that residency training directors will see these students for the talented competent doctors they are becoming. Beyond residency talented physicians continue to train and self educate.

As a result of attending CNUCOM my daughter is a short drive from the SF bay area (home) and the mountains where many of the students get student discount ski passes. She loves the outdoors and has endless year round outdoor opportunities when time from study allows.

The criticisms of CNUCOM's "business practices" are spurious. If one were looking at the school in an less biased way they would compare and contrast CNUCOM's business practices with the business practices of the "non-profit" schools in relation to their communities. Just ask the neighbors of UCSF (Laurel Heights or inner sunset) and see how fairly they have been treated. Ask the folks at Children's Hospital Oakland how the business practices of UCSF are working for them. All health-care entities are "for profit" even if they say they aren't.

The aforementioned information would have been helpful to me a year ago when my daughter was applying to schools and I share it with others in that spirit.

Sounds great! Exactly how does ethnically diverse = majority Asian? Also, please tell me why a group of students who don't need federal student loans would need proximity to student discount ski passes???? 🙂 Sounds like a compelling reason to attend!!

Otherwise, pretty funny comparing a for-profit medical school to the business practices of the entire US healthcare system. Just how much free or subsidized anything does CNU provide to anyone????

 

[deleted1011020]

Sounds great! Exactly how does ethnically diverse = majority Asian? Also, please tell me why a group of students who don't need federal student loans would need proximity to student discount ski passes???? 🙂 Sounds like a compelling reason to attend!!

Otherwise, pretty funny comparing a for-profit medical school to the business practices of the entire US healthcare system. Just how much free or subsidized anything does CNU provide to anyone????

Probably meant a variety of different sub-groups within the Asian community.

 

[Goro]

I've responded to this thread because the "hate California Northstate" frightened me as my daughter pursued and ultimately entered this school. I hope that other students and parents will be reassured by my observations.

This school is a great choice for someone who wants to get an MD in California and isn't accepted to one of the UC schools. On the other hand if a student needs federally backed student loans then this school is not a good choice. The CNUCOM student body is an ethnically diverse group that is majority (talented) Asian Americans. There are more qualified applicants to medical schools than places and some super qualified applicants happen to be considered ethnically "over represented". It is both correct and honest to say that CNUCOM does NOT have many under represented minorities. It is, however, neither correct nor honest to compare the school to a Caribbean medical school.

CNUCOM remains a better choice than a DO school because there are still residencies that don't (sadly) take DO students. Also, there are still many people who don't even understand what a DO is.

CNUCOM has passed it's next phase of accreditation and students there are graduating from an ACCREDITED US MD medical school.

I've saved for years to help all of my children with higher education and I'm glad my daughter had this option. This school is not a good option for someone who needs federal loans but for certain students it is an awesome option.

The MCAT and Step one scores at this school are high because the students are smart. I anticipate that residency training directors will see these students for the talented competent doctors they are becoming. Beyond residency talented physicians continue to train and self educate.

As a result of attending CNUCOM my daughter is a short drive from the SF bay area (home) and the mountains where many of the students get student discount ski passes. She loves the outdoors and has endless year round outdoor opportunities when time from study allows.

The criticisms of CNUCOM's "business practices" are spurious. If one were looking at the school in an less biased way they would compare and contrast CNUCOM's business practices with the business practices of the "non-profit" schools in relation to their communities. Just ask the neighbors of UCSF (Laurel Heights or inner sunset) and see how fairly they have been treated. Ask the folks at Children's Hospital Oakland how the business practices of UCSF are working for them. All health-care entities are "for profit" even if they say they aren't.

The aforementioned information would have been helpful to me a year ago when my daughter was applying to schools and I share it with others in that spirit.

Ah, more CNusplaining. The failings of other parts of the US Healthcare System do not constitute a defense of the business practices of CNU. Whataboutism are not a defense of anything, in fact.

We do not have a problem nor any ill-will with the students who attend CNU. Our problem is with the business practices and ethics of the University.


And I'll bet the vast majority of the students who went there thought "I can specialized far better than I can as a do". Except if you look at their match list for the Pioneer class it was the same as a mediocre DO school.

So be happy for your daughter's success, she's going to be a doctor, and stop Shilling for the University

 

[Lawpy]

what's with so many parents coming on SDN and defending CNU really hard?

 

[parentofanaspiringdoc123]

Asia has 54 percent of the human population and is very diverse. If we were to open up our borders we would become more asian and would actually need more asian doctors.

Neither UCSF nor Stanford take Med-Cal and neither take the lower tiers of California's Obamacare. UCSF SF General is now Zuckerburg General Hospital. Children's Hospital and UCSF Parnassus are Benioff Hospitals. Many UCSF and Stanford attendings are Opted Out of Medicare. The "low fee clinics" at UCSF charge as much or more than private doctors. I'm not sure what "non-profit" medical schools you are familiar with but northern california does not have the most benevolent systems.

Aside from this it actually doesn't matter as long as the students at Calfornia Northstate are getting a good medical education. CNUCOM does nothing to take the opportunities at state schools away from the preferred minorities. What is important is smart motivated students are getting a chance to become doctors.
I still don't understand the antipathy toward CNUCOM but I understand there will always be different points of view on the subject. I respectfully accept our differences with warm regards...

 

[ciestar]

what's with so many parents coming on SDN and defending CNU really hard?

They want to convince the rest of us that CNU isnt a bad idea.

 

[Goro]

what's with so many parents coming on SDN and defending CNU really hard?

I suspect that they see their kid's med choice as a validation of their own self-worth.

 

[KnightDoc]

what's with so many parents coming on SDN and defending CNU really hard?

They seek validation. The fact is, though, that everyone knows exactly what CNU is, and what it isn't. CNU knows its target market well (@parentofanaspiringdoc123, other parents like her/him, and their kids). S/he is trying hard to validate by selling here, but SDN is a tough, educated crowd, so that's going to be impossible, although I for one do find the posts amusing.

In my opinion the problem is that the school's graduates are going to carry the stigma of going to the only for-profit MD school in the country, that you just know was nobody's first choice, and, other than arguably decent stats, the primary qualification for matriculation was a family's ability and willingness to be full pay and the fact that the student had no other options.

How is the market going to treat these graduates over the years? I would want to see some data before I'd be comfortable having my parents hand over $500,000 to CNU in pursuit of their dream of my becoming a MD, as opposed to my taking another year or two to try to get into absolutely any other US MD program, or a reputable DO one, and not have to deal with that potential taint.

I'm the one @parentofanaspiringdoc123 is trying to convince, but it's around 10 years too early for me, no matter how happy @parentofanaspiringdoc123 is with discount skiing and no matter how many Ivy caliber UGs also had students like @parentofanaspiringdoc123's kid that also couldn't get an A anywhere else and chose St. George's of CA over a gap year or a good DO school.

Edit -- I have to take back my quip about St. George's, because they actually participate in the federal loan program! 🙂

 

[ThatGIguy]

They seek validation. The fact is, though, that everyone knows exactly what CNU is, and what it isn't. CNU knows its target market well (@parentofanaspiringdoc123, other parents like her/him, and their kids). S/he is trying hard to validate by selling here, but SDN is a tough, educated crowd, so that's going to be impossible, although I for one do find the posts amusing.

In my opinion the problem is that the school's graduates are going to carry the stigma of going to the only for-profit MD school in the country, that you just know was nobody's first choice, and, other than arguably decent stats, the primary qualification for matriculation was a family's ability and willingness to be full pay and the fact that the student had no other options.

How is the market going to treat these graduates over the years? I would want to see some data before I'd be comfortable having my parents hand over $500,000 to CNU in pursuit of their dream of my becoming a MD, as opposed to my taking another year or two to try to get into absolutely any other US MD program, or a reputable DO one, and not have to deal with that potential taint.

I'm the one @parentofanaspiringdoc123 is trying to convince, but it's around 10 years too early for me, no matter how happy @parentofanaspiringdoc123 is with discount skiing and no matter how many Ivy caliber UGs also had students like @parentofanaspiringdoc123's kid that also couldn't get an A anywhere else and chose St. George's of CA over a gap year or a good DO school.

Edit -- I have to take back my quip about St. George's, because they actually participate in the federal loan program! 🙂

Dude, why are you being such a jerk? CNU isn’t for you, great, that’s good that you figured that out. The school also doesn’t participate in federally funded programs which makes the program look bad. It should end there, OK? If someone gets accepted to CNU and decides they can afford it, then so be it. You’re acting like getting accepted into a US MD is a casual thing and that people can be picky. Well that’s not the case. Everyone on SDN has presented all the cons of going to CNU, so the parent was giving the other side. Nothing wrong with that. I also think it’s completely ridiculous that you’re comparing Caribbean schools to a US MD.

 

[KnightDoc]

Dude, why are you being such a jerk? CNU isn’t for you, great, that’s good that you figured that out. The school also doesn’t participate in federally funded programs which makes the program look bad. It should end there, OK? If someone gets accepted to CNU and decides they can afford it, then so be it. You’re acting like getting accepted into a US MD is a casual thing and that people can be picky. Well that’s not the case. Everyone on SDN has presented all the cons of going to CNU, so the parent was giving the other side. Nothing wrong with that. I also think it’s completely ridiculous that you’re comparing Caribbean schools to a US MD.

I'm sorry that you think I'm being a jerk, but I just feel compelled to respond in case a casual reader stumbles on this thread and thinks that a for profit med school that doesn't participate in the federal loan program, like some scammy trade school, is a good choice.

Because I think even people who can't be picky are entitled to better choices than this. Because even some Caribbean medical schools, which are also terrible choices, but for different reasons, at least go to the expense and trouble to do what is necessary to allow their students to be eligible to receive the benefits of the federal loan program. Because I'm offended by the notion of a school that was established to earn a profit for investors from the desperation of a certain group of parents and students for medical degrees, and I'm offended that there is little to no effort to extend whatever benefits may be offered to those who do not have the financial means to line the pockets of the investors.

If there is any justice in the world, CNU's graduates will be perceived as second class in the marketplace, and the business model will die the death it richly deserves, as opposed to it being successful and consequently replicated throughout the country, thereby turning the profession into something many of us would not want to be part of. That's why!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I am from CA and I know few kids who go to CNU (regular and BSMD program). It's not a bad choice for those who wants a MD from US school especially from a CA school and can afford to pay fully. Lot of these students are children of physicians and parents are happy with their decisions. No reason to be toxic about the school or also no use of CNU parents to come here and try to defend the school. You don't need validation from strangers.

Having said that I also disagree with CNU parent's notion that it's better than all DO schools.

 

[ThatGIguy]

I'm sorry that you think I'm being a jerk, but I just feel compelled to respond in case a casual reader stumbles on this thread and thinks that a for profit med school that doesn't participate in the federal loan program, like some scammy trade school, is a good choice.

Because I think even people who can't be picky are entitled to better choices than this. Because even some Caribbean medical schools, which are also terrible choices, but for different reasons, at least go to the expense and trouble to do what is necessary allow their students to be eligible to receive the benefits of the federal loan program. That's why!

I agree that that is a con with the school. However, if one can afford it (like the parent), I don’t think it’s appropriate to put them down. Also, CNU makes it very clear that they do not accept fed funded program, they make it clear in the interview and their acceptance packet, so I don’t think that that is valid to assume that people will enroll in their program without knowing how to finance their education.
My belief is that the universities decisions should not affect the future of the students who enroll there. One hypothesis I have about the reported poor matches (which I haven’t yet looked at) is probably due to the fact that it is a first class graduating. I belief that it’ll get better, but I highly, highly doubt that any program director will say “This person decided to attend a university that doesn’t accept federal loans, let’s scrutinize them more then the next applicant despite their higher board scores and class grades”.
At the end of the day, if you can afford the school, I really don’t see any reason why SDN is up and arms with the accredited school.

 

[kahunas007]

More for-profit schools are needed so a lot more CA applicants with average stats (gpa 3.71 and MCAT 511) can choose to stay in their home state for medical school and serve their state after graduation. It's all good for CA.

 

[ThatGIguy]

More for-profit schools are needed so a lot more CA applicants with average stats (gpa 3.71 and MCAT 511) can choose to stay in their home state for medical school and serve their state after graduation. It's all good for CA.

Well, I wouldn’t say that that’s an answer either, however, I do think it’s ridiculous when SDNers completely write off an accredited US MD school. My thinking is if you can’t afford it, there are other medical schools (including DO) that you can attend if you get in.

 

[KnightDoc]

I agree that that is a con with the school. However, if one can afford it (like the parent), I don’t think it’s appropriate to put them down. Also, CNU makes it very clear that they do not accept fed funded program, they make it clear in the interview and their acceptance packet, so I don’t think that that is valid to assume that people will enroll in their program without knowing how to finance their education.
My belief is that the universities decisions should not affect the future of the students who enroll there. One hypothesis I have about the reported poor matches (which I haven’t yet looked at) is probably due to the fact that it is a first class graduating. I belief that it’ll get better, but I highly, highly doubt that any program director will say “This person decided to attend a university that doesn’t accept federal loans, let’s scrutinize them more then the next applicant despite their higher board scores and class grades”.
At the end of the day, if you can afford the school, I really don’t see any reason why SDN is up and arms with the accredited school.

I think you missed my point. It wasn't that the school is being dishonest with anyone, it is that no reputable person with ethics wants to limit access to a medical education to those who can afford it, and most people do not want access to the profession controlled by those with nothing but a profit motive.

Like others here, I have no personal ill will towards anyone who chooses CNU, but I hope the school fails because I think its success will lead to the degradation of the profession. As has been pointed out multiple times on multiple threads, we candidates are nothing but inputs into the medical education machine. Unfortunately, in this case, this means CNU graduates need to fail in the marketplace in order for the school's business model to fail. (i.e., Parents who can afford it think they have a found a solution to their precious offspring's inability to be accepted into an American MD program. If 10 years from now it turns out CNU grads on average have worse outcomes than graduates from the better DO programs, CNU's overlords might have a problem filling a class with the children of full pay ORM physicians who will be in a position to know that the school's business model is not addressing their problem, and they will go to gap years and reputable programs like the rest of us. I have no way to know whether this will happen, but one can dream. 🙂)

 

[Med Ed]

I think you missed my point. It wasn't that the school is being dishonest with anyone, it is that no reputable person with ethics wants to limit access to a medical education to those who can afford it, and most people do not want access to the profession controlled by those with nothing but a profit motive.

Like others here, I have no personal ill will towards anyone who chooses CNU, but I hope the school fails because I think its success will lead to the degradation of the profession. As has been pointed out multiple times on multiple threads, we candidates are nothing but inputs into the medical education machine. Unfortunately, in this case, this means CNU graduates need to fail in the marketplace in order for the school's business model to fail. (i.e., Parents who can afford it think they have a found a solution to their precious offspring's inability to be accepted into an American MD program. If 10 years from now it turns out CNU grads on average have worse outcomes than graduates from the better DO programs, CNU's overlords might have a problem filling a class with the children of full pay ORM physicians who will be in a position to know that the school's business model is not addressing their problem, and they will go to gap years and reputable programs like the rest of us. I have no way to know whether this will happen, but one can dream. 🙂)

CNU will never, ever be unable to fill its class with students willing to take out private loans. If the school fails it will be because of the extreme difficulty in running a profitable allopathic school with a small class size and essentially no endowment. Rather than close it would more likely get sold off to another entity (probably Kaiser) that can subsidize its operations.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

CNU will never, ever be unable to fill its class with students willing to take out private loans. If the school fails it will be because of the extreme difficulty in running a profitable allopathic school with a small class size and essentially no endowment. Rather than close it would more likely get sold off to another entity (probably Kaiser) that can subsidize its operations.

Only if Kaiser wants to start another school in NorCal.

 

[KnightDoc]

CNU will never, ever be unable to fill its class with students willing to take out private loans. If the school fails it will be because of the extreme difficulty in running a profitable allopathic school with a small class size and essentially no endowment. Rather than close it would more likely get sold off to another entity (probably Kaiser) that can subsidize its operations.

Still, one can dream! 🙂

What are the economics behind anyone taking over a failing medical school as opposed to starting one's own? Why would Kaiser want to bail out CNU's investors with a subsidy? Did it work out so well for Drexel? Does it ever work out? How often is it even done? How many med schools fail?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Still, one can dream! 🙂

What are the economics behind anyone taking over a failing medical school as opposed to starting one's own? Why would Kaiser want to bail out CNU's investors with a subsidy? Did it work out so well for Drexel? Does it ever work out? How often is it even done? How many med schools fail?

May be Chinese government (or proxy) takeover?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Still, one can dream!

You are hoping the school fails? That would be pretty awful for the students that go there. We have had for profit med schools for a while now (albeit a DO school), and the profession hasn’t been destroyed. In fact it’s a decent school. This school is doing shady things but to hope it fails and puts its students in a really crappy position is kind of crappy.

 

[Cornfed101]

Idk why there are so many people obsessed with California... why not just move to another state? I have never understood why people become so attached to a single location. Especially one that is a terrible market for pre-meds.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Idk why there are so many people obsessed with California... why not just move to another state? I have never understood why people become so attached to a single location. Especially one that is a terrible market for pre-meds.

Also it’s California. Other than the weather in SoCal, there are definitely other places to go that are just as good or better.

 

[Goro]

Only if Kaiser wants to start another school in NorCal.

What are the economics behind anyone taking over a failing medical school as opposed to starting one's own? Why would Kaiser want to bail out CNU's investors with a subsidy? Did it work out so well for Drexel? Does it ever work out? How often is it even done? How many med schools fail?

The paradigm of a hospital starting amed school (rather than the historic reverse) is a growing trend, it seems.

Kaiser's motivation to buy or start another med school would be the same as the reason they started one int he first place; to ensure a steady supply of well trained, talented clinicians familiar with their own system.

Drexel as a med school is doing fine; the Hahnemann fiasco is a separate issue unrelated to the med school.

It's hard to kill off a med school. The only two in recent times to go belly up were Oral Roberts, Hahnemann, and The Woman's Medical College of Pennsylvania. The latter two merged to form Drexel. According to the wise @Med Ed, both Seton Hall and Geisinger had rocky beginnings, and were only saved by being taken over by local hospital chains.

Idk why there are so many people obsessed with California... why not just move to another state? I have never understood why people become so attached to a single location. Especially one that is a terrible market for pre-meds.

There are a LOT of Californians from cultures that place a big emphasis on extended family, and thus these students want to stay close to home. It's part of the reason why my school gets a fair share of very talented kids from CA....they'd rather get a DO degree on this side of the Missouri River than go all the way to, say, Albany, Wake, Tufts or Temple.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Also it’s California. Other than the weather in SoCal, there are definitely other places to go that are just as good or better.

I am from NorCal (not bay area) and I like the place I live. It's not too liberal, and no risk of earthquakes or wild fires or hurricanes, or thunderstorms or snow storms. within 2 hours of beach and mountains. High taxes and bad state for premeds are the -ves, but willing to pay the taxes since we like our jobs and hoping for my son to survive the application cycle.

 

[ThatGIguy]

You are hoping the school fails? That would be pretty awful for the students that go there. We have had for profit med schools for a while now (albeit a DO school), and the profession hasn’t been destroyed. In fact it’s a decent school. This school is doing shady things but to hope it fails and puts its students in a really crappy position is kind of crappy.

That’s my point. The feeling on this thread is that some people want both the school and students to fail which is despicable

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I am from NorCal (not bay area) and I like the place I live. It's not too liberal, and no risk of earthquakes or wild fires or hurricanes, or thunderstorms or snow storms. within 2 hours of beach and mountains. High taxes and bad state for premeds are the -ves, but willing to pay the taxes since we like our jobs and hoping for my son to survive the application cycle.

You have no risk of thunderstorms? Do you live in the space station or a submarine?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

You have no risk of thunderstorms? Do you live in the space station or a submarine?

I meant very low risk, not like in midwest.

 

[Goro]

CNU will never, ever be unable to fill its class with students willing to take out private loans. If the school fails it will be because of the extreme difficulty in running a profitable allopathic school with a small class size and essentially no endowment. Rather than close it would more likely get sold off to another entity (probably Kaiser) that can subsidize its operations.

It's not going to help their parent corporation's bottom line when the Pharm school goes belly-up.

 

[KnightDoc]

You are hoping the school fails? That would be pretty awful for the students that go there. We have had for profit med schools for a while now (albeit a DO school), and the profession hasn’t been destroyed. In fact it’s a decent school. This school is doing shady things but to hope it fails and puts its students in a really crappy position is kind of crappy.

I know, but it's also kind of crappy that parents (and students) are buying into a model that excludes those who cannot afford to pay just so their little darlings can have a CA MD, so yeah, I hope it fails, and that its failure acts as a disincentive in the future. These are all students who were not accepted into any other MD program, kind of by definition, so I'm not sure what entitlement its students have to not be put into a kind of crappy position.

You know who is also in a crappy position? -- Everyone who wants to go to MD school in CA and cannot afford to go to CNU without federal loans, that's who! Who is crying for them, besides me??