DO vs. Caribbean MD

[DAPLAYA]

Would u guys recommend going to a caribbean med school like St. George or a DO school. thanx for all opinions!

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[dknykid1980]

hey there playa-

ok yes, like skip said this has been discussed before. I juggled with the option of going down to the carib for a while. HOWEVER, i am at a US school and all i can say is this.

go to the caribbean if it is a last resort (ie u've applied and gotten rejected from US schools at least twice or so). I repeat that! I mean even SGU admissions ppl will tell you that, as well as people on their own forum. seriously any carib school should be a real 'desparation' shot so to speak. I mean the reason i tell you this is because I've talked to classmates of mine, people at other schools, professionals, etc. Indeed, if you are US grad you are a US grad. However, inevitably there will always be a stigma attached to you if you go over to the carib. RESIDENCY directors have even told me not to do it. however, some will concede that they do get residencies. yes they do. however, like i said you will get a lot of $hit for it down the line. Many people will look down on you etc.

its your call. I mean i was pretty adamant of not taking a year of etc, however, with all the workload you get in med school sometimes it feels as if it wouldnt have been a bad idea.

so thats my 2 cents.
good luck. PM me if you have any other q's.

 

[ItNeverEnds]

D.O.

 

[DrQuinn]

If you are afraid of the stigma of not becoming an MD, do not go to DO school. Once you graduate from an MD caribbean school, atleast no one can tell without looking at your resume that you did not train at a US MD program.

However, if you really don't care but would rather have a better shot at getting residencies, I would go DO. I say this because I am in the process of applying for residency (Emergency Medicine) and have 10 interviews at MD EM residencies already (more to come since all the ERAS apps are complete).... I am not sure how my counterpart caribbean medicine counterparts are doing.

It really all depends on how insecure you are about titles/training. I don't really care. I'm going to graduate in May and will be a very competent physician. Those graduating from SGU or wherever I"m sure will be competent physicians as well. I will be a DO, they will be an MD........ doesn't really matter if you get what residency you want.

 

[great north]

Ah...QuinnNSU, indeed the voice of reason. Medicine, and for some reason in america in particular, elitism and name recognition seems rampant. DO or MD from a carribean school may be frowned upon by some and one may have to do more post-graduate work before reaching the desired goal, yet when your competent and amoung the best around...you can not be questionned or your abilities doubted.

I would rather do an ophthalmolgy residency in Georgia (the country) and practice in Nigeria giving people sight than have to deal with ignorance

 

[Skip Intro]

Kid,

You're right. Everyone else who didn't go to a U.S. medical school - all 125,000+ IMGs practising in the U.S. - are all *****s.



-Skip

 

[dknykid1980]

Oh my bad SKIP,

did I step on some toes by expressing MY OPINION about this matter to a younger, eager, aspiring, curious future physician? Oh I get it I wasnt supposed to tell him/her EVERYTHING I knew about this subject matter. Rather, I should sugar coat everything about caribbean medical school....sorry buddy I'll leave that up to the caribbean medical schools themselves who are doing a fine job of it!

Playa, and anyone else. I'm simply saying that hey this is how it is. Like others who posted here, here is the order in which residency programs rank you.

1)US Allopathic
2)US DO
3) FOREIGN Allopathic (like Indian, Aussies, British)
4) Caribbean

That's a pretty sincere showing of how they're going to look at you. Needless to say, some like our friend Skippie will go on and relate their stories about how they could have gotten into a US school, etc. Nonetheless, you will see if you look at the above 'ranking of sorts' the two highest ranked categories have 'US' preceding them. You dont have to take my word for it. Go to the international forum and also some caribbean forums and see what they think. ANYONE who doesnt want to mislead you will surely concede that my above ranking is highly accurate. If you still dont believe me just go to a nearby hospital and ask a residency director (that's what I did).

Good luck.

p.s. wow skippie didnt know you were still soo quick to bite onto the bait. toodles.

 

[Winged Scapula]

No contest. DO.

 

[s42brown]

So you can't get into an American allopathic school and you want to know where to go now. Well let me tell you that it is not a walk in the park to get into an osteopathic school. I am applying only to osteopathic schools because I have family members who are D.O.'s and would like to know some OMM. Let me just throw some numbers at you, I have a 3.76 science GPA, a 9,9,10 mcat score and I am presently working as an ER tech at a level I trauma center. I know I am not the perfect applicant, but I like to think I am the perfectly solid applicant. KCOM, which is one of the schools that I am applying to, has an average MCAT score of 9.42V, 9.25P, and 9.87B, with an average science GPA of 3.51. In addition the average osteopathic medical school is constantly striving to increase their standards and board scores to compete with allopathic schools. As time goes on osteopathic medical schools will continue to approximate the admission standards held by allopathic institutions. Because of the competition I know that when I graduate I will be a very competent doctor regardless of the two letters behind my name, it is not the other way around. In no way are the Caribbean schools as competitive as the osteopathic schools here in the states. Sure when you come back from the Caribbean you'll have M.D. behind you name. However, what was the quality of education that you received while acquiring that degree? It is all about the education, not the letters

 

[Castro Viejo]

I would recommend going to an osteopathic medical school rather than attending a medical school in the Caribbean.

I would, however, advise that you become comfortable with the fact that you'll be a D.O. for the rest of your life. I know far too many osteopathic medical students who complain that the D.O. is a handicap. It definitely has not proven to be a handicap for the osteopathic students I know. I've met many D.O. students over the last three and a half years and know that these guys are interviewing at high-powered programs in areas as competitive as Rays and EM.

Good luck.

 

[great north]

Naturally, US allopathic> US osteopathic> FMG (outside Caribbean)> FMG (Caribbean);

where US= superior education
allopathic= status quo
osteopathic= acceptable alternative
FMG= damn foreigners who don't have a proper
american education
FMG (caribbean)= damn fools who counldn't get into a
north american medical school and had to pay
exorbitant tuition to receive a medical education.

Residency directors in America may very well see the world thus, just as a family favors its own family members and apply the above "inequality" statement in their decision making. However, it has little to do with educational quality and student abilities and more to do with pride, elitism and name recognition, for if the decision tree were based on logic it would have to consider the capabilities of each student on an individual basis and that would likely be too time consumming, cost ineffective and God help us equitable. Yet when going to another country for medical training ,which is rather closed to outsiders in any country, one has to accept that those who are citizens and educated according to that country's standards have a distinct advantage belonging to the State in question (America) while others have to wait their turn should it come. Personally...

I would rather do an ophathlmology residency in Georgia (the country) and practice in Nigeria giving people sight than have to deal with ignorance.

 

[Joshua Tree]

I recommend going to dental school, getting your DMD and scratching off the first "D". Then you have an MD!

Just a joke for this forum...

 

[Stinky T]

Originally posted by great north

I would rather do an ophathlmology residency in Georgia (the country) and practice in Nigeria giving people sight than have to deal with ignorance.

Um, practicing in Nigeria to escape ignorance in the US?! You might want to look into some of the things that are happening in Nigeria; lest you will be accused of being ignorant like us Americans.

 

[great north]

Practicing in Nigeria or elsewhere where there is suffering and little aid to alleviate it.

And I still would rather do an ophthalmology residency in Georgia (the country) and practice where the need is greatest...happy now

 

[DocWagner]

This entire discussion is silly and non-productive.

 

[IOE]

What a thread!! all that negativity wasn't at all necessary.....we all know (I hope) that nothing excedes a US MD degree interms of getting residencies, quality of medical education (most schools...not all), etc etc. However, I do know many successful physicians who were trained abroad and were able to make it here in the states. and YES...they all can tell you many stories of their first residency year...how they were looked down upon by the US-educated doctors and how they had to try and do their best to prove themselves.
Going to a Carrib. school or a US school is a very personal choice. If you think that your motivations to be a doctor stem from a strong need to boast around and show off your med school diploma (which has little importance on the long run ), then your only option is to try as hard as you can to get into an american school. If, on the other hand you just want to be a doctor for the sake of being a doctor..a healer, and you are not willing to and/or can't wait an extra year for the next application cycle...then you do whatever that you have to do. BUT KEEP IN MIND that it will be harder than getting into a US med school......you will have to work at lease twice as much to fill in that gap....if you are going to the carribbean you better make sure that when you finish from there you will know medicine, have great board scores, great recs, etc etc.

Now....I find it nothing less than rediculious that some people would really get into DO schools just because they couldn't get into any MD schools. Osteopathic medical schools were not established as an alternative option for slackers or unfortunate students. That is a line of medicine that has its own philosophy and mission which it serves. If you don't believe in it then don't do it.....you don't belong there....and if the mission of the schools or their philosophies are of little importance to you...then...it is most likely that medicine is not for you.


these are my own personal opinions....ANY comment is appreciated

 

[group_theory]

The original question referred to: St. George or DO?
I will therefore ignore discussion about other non-US MD schools or US MD schools

Despite what I or what other people may say, the final decision rest with you and you alone.

If you are uncomfortable with having a DO behind your name, or believe that osteopathic medicine is a cult, then take some time to find out more about osteopathic medicine and talk to a few DOs. If after that, you don't want that DO, then don't apply.
Most PDs in major cities (and all good hospitals/medical centers are located in major cities) have seen DOs, probably worked with DOs, and are not biased against DOs. When it comes to foreign MDs though, they might not know the difference between St. George, Ross, and a start-up diploma mill in the Carrib.

St. George is known as an excellent foreign medical school, with clinical rotations in the US. Many fine physicians have come from St. George and many who pass the USMLE I and II end up w/ fine residency.

That said, be aware that most Carrib. schools are business-run. St. George wants to look as good as possible so that more students from the states will come to them instead of Ross or their other competitors. It does this by providing a better education than most schools in the Carrib. It also does this by getting a high first-time USMLE pass rate. To ensure a high rate, they discourage students who might not pass the USMLE from taking it.

Just remember this: the bias against DOs occur mainly in premed communities. Patients often do not notice whether their doctors are MDs or DOs (since they don't know to look for them) - so most patients will not discriminate against DOs (why should they if they don't know that there are two different types of doctors)

The biggest problem is that having DO after your name might not give you immediate recognition: Having John Doe, DO on your mailbox might not have the same effect as having John Doe, MD on the mailbox (but we're not in this for prestige, are we?)

Anyway, when deciding between St. George and osteopathic, the final choice is yours. Both offer great education and both will most likely allow you to practice in the US. Just make sure you are informed when deciding - that you know the pros and cons of both.

In the end, MDs and DOs are just undergraduate medical degrees. It's what you learn in GME that is important.

 

[11000]

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[Skip Intro]

Sorry, but I have to parse and comment. Unfortunately, it looks like we are going to get into it here...

Originally posted by group_theory
Despite what I or what other people may say, the final decision rest with you and you alone.

Yes, very true. But, you will face bias. People will always judge you, no matter where you go or what degree you have. As I've said before, imagine the white, middle-aged male patient who refuses to be seen by the young, African-American, female Harvard grad...

Originally posted by group_theory
When it comes to foreign MDs though, they might not know the difference between St. George, Ross, and a start-up diploma mill in the Carrib.

I partially disagree. Most PDs know the difference. Give them some credit. There are off-shore schools that have established track records and have produced quality graduates. There are other "less-established" schools both within and outside the Caribbean basin, however, where this may be true.

Originally posted by group_theory
St. George is known as an excellent foreign medical school, with clinical rotations in the US. Many fine physicians have come from St. George and many who pass the USMLE I and II end up w/ fine residency.

True. Ditto for Ross and AUC.

Originally posted by group_theory
That said, be aware that most Carrib. schools are business-run.

No, ALL Carib schools are for-profit (which is what I think you were getting at). This includes SGU and is not, in and of itself, an indictment.

Originally posted by group_theory
St. George wants to look as good as possible so that more students from the states will come to them instead of Ross or their other competitors.

Again, the majority of Carib schools are no different.

I suggest you look here for a non-biased comparison:

http://www.aaimg.com/index.html

You will see that SGU and Ross are, by far, the superior choices and match-up exactly the same.

Originally posted by group_theory
To ensure a high rate, they discourage students who might not pass the USMLE from taking it.

No one "discourages" anyone from taking USMLE. You have to pass your classes. You have to jump through more hoops. It is all up to the individual. SGU may be a little more selective on the front-end, but Ross (speaking firsthand because I've seen it) heavily weeds-out the weaker individuals. This is not the result of some vindictive, over-bearing, impossible curriculum. It is because those individuals simply could not handle the workload. But, at least they got their chance. Likewise, thousands of qualified students are turned away from U.S. med schools at the whim of various admissions committees every year despite excellent qualifications. This should not be seen as a de facto assertion that they don't deserve to be a doctor.

Originally posted by group_theory
Just remember this: the bias against DOs occur mainly in premed communities. Patients often do not notice whether their doctors are MDs or DOs (since they don't know to look for them) - so most patients will not discriminate against DOs (why should they if they don't know that there are two different types of doctors)

The exact same holds true for Carib students (as was just best illustrated by "the Kid").

Originally posted by group_theory
The biggest problem is that having DO after your name might not give you immediate recognition: Having John Doe, DO on your mailbox might not have the same effect as having John Doe, MD on the mailbox (but we're not in this for prestigue, are we?)

Apparently, some people are...

Originally posted by group_theory
Anyway, when deciding between St. George and osteopathic, the final choice is yours. Both offer great education and both will most likely allow you to practice in the US. Just make sure you are informed when deciding - that you know the pros and cons of both.

Research ALL of your options. There are many "alternative" pathways to becoming a physician. No one is any more "right" or "wrong" than the other. Have enough self-esteem that you are comfortable with your decision, and - whatever that decision may be - never adopt a superiority complex. You will be surprised at how much some of those "inferior" doctors who trained in the Caribbean or Central America know. And, always remember, everyone, be they a Harvard grad or an MD from the Balkans, has their strengths and weaknesses. None of us knows everything. I'd probably prefer to be seen by a nurse with 20 years of experience over a first year intern.

Originally posted by group_theory
In the end, MDs and DOs are just undergraduate medical degrees. It's what you learn in GME that is important.

Exactly! Well said.

I think that this is a much more "even" opinion on the subject from someone who has worked with both AMGs and IMGs, and represents what I know to be true through my work experience...

Originally posted by mikecwru
I have worked with lots of Caribbean people and they have run the gamut of quality, just like any other MD. If the person works hard, I don't see any reason why they should work differently. This goes doubly so if the person came back in the middle to do the last two years in the US.

http://www.studentdoctor.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=470349#post470349

Ross and SGU both do their clerkships in the U.S.

Okay, now can we let it rest and/or take it to the International Forum?

Thank you.

-Skip

 

[11000]

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[Skip Intro]

Originally posted by swaroop1
(snip)

anyways, yah, i admit that i haven't really added anything to this discussion b/c i don't want to offer random opinions based on nothing! i haven't had any experience with DO schools or the carribean schools (and, needless to say, i'm not a residency director), so i can't really say anything... that's why i was reading this thread, for information...

No sweat, swaroop1! You clearly have a very bright future. Just don't get ever get tainted like so many others seem to do. But, rumor has it that Hopkins always picks the best and the coolest anyway.

-Skip
MS2 Ross University
Portsmouth, Dominica

P.S. This is a place to come for "information", but it is not necessarily the best place to come for facts.

 

[Pril]

DO without a second thought, I go to a US medical school that is in Puerto Rico. Let me explain, it ia a accredited by LCME but located in the Carribean and just for being located in the Carribean we have it a little harder than schools in the state so imagine how hard it is for the actual carribeaan student who considered as foreign grads.
Three years ago, the president of lcme had to send an official letter to all the program directors reminding them that there is three us medical schools in Puero Rico which should be treated as US medical schools.
Anyways, all I am trying to say is the Carribean schools are lokked upon differently and you should just remmember that.

 

[dknykid1980]

hey skip-

Truly you are simply trying to defend yourself as a caribbean med student. I realize that you will try to defend yourself and your school based on the fact that you will be a caribbean med grad! however, based on what i stated earlier and based on what almost EVERYONE subsequently posted about caribbean medical schools I was correct--I did by no means want to lead this young, applicant into a misconstrued conception of caribbean schools being a viable option and somewhat equal option to US schools because quite frankly they arent!

As almost everyone here in this forum agreed upon, US schools are far superior...there is no doubt about it. DO schools are a lot harder to get into than caribbean med schools.

Ok, true I was THINKING of going to a caribbean med school and true I am a first year student. HOwever, being a first year student doesnt mean i'm naive. I made the INFORMED decision of attending a US school, because I didnt want to have the difficulties of coming over to the US and face the PDs at all these schools. And just because I got in late to a US med school doesnt mean anything! if you were more well read you would have known that AMCAS had a fiasco last year(that's right you dont know waht AMCAS is do you? It's the US med school application service). For your informatoin a ton of friends of mine got in even later than me! So what's your point about getting in late, I GOT IN!

now as far as defending yourself, like I said I understand it is an innate tendency for self conscious individuals to engage in. Come on skip get real and admit that caribbean med schools are inferior. almost everyone in this forum that posted in this thread agrees that it is.

Even more buddy, did you know that when i interviewed at Ross (your school) it was a complete joke. I was ready to answer questions about how HMOs will affect healthcare and stell cells research, etc. When i got to the interview, the lady didnt even allow me to speak. she didnt care what my grades were. the whole 'interview' was basically a sales pitch! bottom line is that caribbean schools are there for generating $$ and diplomas. Thus, I dont know how you or anyone of your peers can go on and degrade DO schools or equivocate your schools with AMERICAN allopathic schools. Though, this argument may seem elitist, I'm simply stating views that almost all american grads and PD's across the nation share. you may desire to call it "bull$hit" or us being american "a$$holes" however, we have earned the right to be one I know that I along with several of my colleagues in US schools have worked night and day and STUDIED to get to where we are. WE have studied to get those MD or DO designations. However, I see it to be quite futile how any JOE BLOW, who failed half of his/hers classes or completely slacked, can just walk up to a school off shore and get those same letters that we've strived and worked for.

So buddy get real buddy. I know the reason you didnt want to have this discussed in the ALLOPATHIC forum is because you dont want to get humiliated in front of american grads. you'd rather the humiliation occur in the international forum, where no one reads threads. but hey the truth comes out. Can you handle it?

gotta study

DKNY

 

[mongoose]

There is a grad of Ross that is doing a neurology residency here at U.Kentucky. I have had the pleasure of working with him on but one occasion and I must say he was quite knowledgable and far more friendly and helpful than most residents I have had the priviledge of working with. Maybe he was more friendly because he learned humility at Ross. Something, along with class, of which dknykid obviously has none. If all Ross grads are like this guy, then maybe everyone should go there to be a doc. He was, in my opinion, a class act in every way. This is not atypical according to residency directors with which I have spoken. And dknykid, no one is impressed with your belittling of fmg's and foreign med schools. Get a life, buddy.

 

[11000]

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[great north]

...the whole 'interview' was basically a sales pitch bottom line is that caribbean schools are there for generating $$ and diplomas.

As opposed to most medical schools teaching for the betterment of medicine and to further the profession into the subsequent generation. It is my understanding that undergraduate medical education is a losing proposition financially speaking, where at best the school of medicine would break even. However, medical schools have an alternative route to raise funds, namely, asking private and public individuals (politicians etc) and perhaps even biomedical companies to offer donations. Which are further supplemented by research grants where a good percentage of which falls into the hands of the unversity and then the given college (in this example the college of medicine). Thus do not think that north american (American and Canadian) medical schools sit around under olive tress in the shadow of Greek temples teaching philosophy and medicine like some ancient greek professor out of the goodness of their hearts. It is all about $$ and diplomas, everywhere, sadly enough. While caribbean schools ask for it up front from their students, north american schools have other hidden means available to them to help maintain the guise of respectability. Furthermore, the caribbean school with its more leanient admissions policy; thereby, providing more students access and then allowing their own abilities and hard work to determine for itself whether they merit the title of doctor and the subsequent priveldge to practice medicine would be more in line with the thinking of your dear Socrates..."the more you know the more you know that you don't know", who also stated in his discussion with Glaucon..."And as knowlegde corrresponded to being and ignorance of necessity with to not-being for that intermediate between being and not-being there has to be discovered a corresponding intermediate between ignorance and knowledge, if there be such?"..."Do we admit the existence of opinion?", from Plato- The Rebuplic...you have read this work, have you not? Thus yours are meerily opinions.

...us being american a$$holes, however we have earned the right to be one.

, I shall not even expand upon this statement; rather, bring your attention to the use of $$ as clearly a Freudian slip to avoid a disscussion of the hippocrasy that money indeed plays a significant role in American education.

I know that I along with several of my colleagues in US schools have worked night and day and STUDIED to get where we are. We have studied to get those MD or DO designations. However, I see it to be quite futile how any JOE BLOW who failed half his/hers classes or completely slacked, can just walk up to a school off shore and get those same letters that we've strived and worked for

...I agree. We here in Canada feel the same way about American medical schools, I mean how is it that the average applicant at the University of British Columbia with an MCAT of ~10, ~11, Q, ~11 and a medical pre-requiste average of A- or roughly 3.5 still can't even get into a medical school where their grades were acheived with exams that require written answers and effort while in America your accepted with an average MCAT of 26.5 at certain institutions and your undergarduate eduaction is pathetic as evidenced by the product that resuts. You see this is opinion lying between being (knowledge) and not-being (ignorance), it is thus rather baseless. Yet it was no doubt also expressed when north american universities were but 25 years old, as Ross and SGU are, by matriculants at the great universities of the UK: University of London, Oxbridge (Oxford and Cambridge), University of Edinborough, Universita di Pisa, Al-Azhar University in Cairo, all of which are 100s where some are close to 1000 years old. Thus these views are typical of someone with little world exposure and who has yet to see that when you save or cure someone of an affliction..they all respond "thank you doctor". Time will tell what impact you have on the world around you.

Hope to see you on rotations.

 

[Fenrezz]

I don't see what the problem is with DO, MD, or Carib MD. One thing I've learned in this excrutiating process is that you can't bull**** the path through medicine. There are too many filtering processess that at any one point, if you aren't qualified, you will most likely not make it through to the end.

Yes, U.S. allopathic schools are harder to get into than DO schools. Yes, DO schools are harder to get into than Carib MD schools. However once you're in you still have to do the work required. No matter where you are, no one is going to spoon feed you the information. You have to learn an intense volume of material in a short time regardless of which time zone you're in. You can either do it, or you can't.

No matter where you graduate from, be it St. Georges, John Hopkins or PCOM, you will all have to pass the same board exams (or the equivalent exam for DO's). If anyone can do that, then they must be qualified enough to practice medicine, and I, for one, have much respect.

Anyone who looks down on someone else for something as silly as this needs to get a grip. Take a deep breath and get over yourself. Life is too short.

 

[Lara]

Originally posted by dknykid1980

Ok, true I was THINKING of going to a caribbean med school and true I am a first year student. HOwever, being a first year student doesnt mean i'm naive. I made the INFORMED decision of attending a US school, because I didnt want to have the difficulties of coming over to the US and face the PDs at all these schools.

I really apologize for not adding something productive to this discussion but I can't let this go. Give me a freaking break. You didn't make any so-called "informed decision", you were lucky and got into a US school! Simple as that. And if you think there aren't any kids who put in an *equal* amount of effort as you, obtained similar stats and still didn't get in through whatever fluke in the application process, well... *shaking head*

And adding to what great north said, why is it that I was only accepted in the US and not Canada? It certainly wasn't my "choice" to pay almost 40K tuition per year at a school that while very good, probably won't be matching someone in derm at Harvard anytime soon (unlike my undergrad institution which actually recently did). Food for thought to *anyone* who considers him/herself inherently superior (for whatever reason, really).

PS - just to make things clear the derm thing isn't an issue for me, it was just to make a point.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Originally posted by great north

Yet it was no doubt also expressed when north american universities were but 25 years old, as Ross and SGU are, by matriculants at the great universities of the UK: University of London, Oxbridge (Oxford and Cambridge), University of Edinborough, Universita di Pisa, Al-Azhar University in Cairo, all of which are 100s where some are close to 1000 years old. Thus these views are typical of someone with little world exposure and who has yet to see that when you save or cure someone of an affliction..they all respond "thank you doctor". Time will tell what impact you have on the world around you.

Hope to see you on rotations.

Interesting point. Time was when an American medical education was NOT sought after, when any self-respecting future physician went to Europe for his medical education (and this was less than 100 years ago).

BTW, for those who may be inclined to think that EVERYONE thinks that an American medical education is the best, you need only to spend some time outside of the US. While there are certain places in the US that are well-respected throughout the world, many are not and the locals elsewhere would prefer their own schools/hospitals.

 

[STi555]

It seems to me that there are two factors when considering different medical schools. First, what others will think of your education. Second, how good the education you get is. I think it is quite difficult to compare the quality of education at different schools because most people only go to one school. Sure you can look at match rates or USMLE scores, but the former depends on what others think of the school and the later depends on the students as well as the school. It would not be surprising that a caribbean school had lower scores because the people that go there generally have lower MCAT scores (which correlate to USMLE scores) so even if the education is just as good the scores could be lower.

If you are going to practice in the US then you will get the most respect and for most people it makes the most sense to go to school in the US (if they can). That doesn't mean the education is better or worse than other schools, but what other people think of your education will be important in your career.

 

[Thewonderer]

Originally posted by great north

...I agree. We here in Canada feel the same way about American medical schools, I mean how is it that the average applicant at the University of British Columbia with an MCAT of ~10, ~11, Q, ~11 and a medical pre-requiste average of A- or roughly 3.5 still can't even get into a medical school where their grades were acheived with exams that require written answers and effort while in America your accepted with an average MCAT of 26.5 at certain institutions and your undergarduate eduaction is pathetic as evidenced by the product that resuts.

uhm....UBC admissions is pretty much BS. That is a terrible example you used.

http://www.admissions.med.ubc.ca/stats/page3.htm
http://www.admissions.med.ubc.ca/stats/page2.htm

The entering MCAT is really not that high. The entering GPA is really not that high. In fact, you have a better chance (higher acceptance rate) of getting accepted with B+ average than with A+ average.

This has been discussed heatedly in a couple threads on another board....
http://pub125.ezboard.com/fpremed101frm14.showMessage?topicID=183.topic

http://pub125.ezboard.com/fpremed101frm14.showMessageRange?topicID=206.topic&start=21&stop=30

 

[Thewonderer]

Originally posted by Kimberli Cox
Interesting point. Time was when an American medical education was NOT sought after, when any self-respecting future physician went to Europe for his medical education (and this was less than 100 years ago).

BTW, for those who may be inclined to think that EVERYONE thinks that an American medical education is the best, you need only to spend some time outside of the US. While there are certain places in the US that are well-respected throughout the world, many are not and the locals elsewhere would prefer their own schools/hospitals.

I think that a couple posters have place a lot of emphasis on "tradition" and "history." These are definitely great to build your reputation on. However, for anyone who has passed through Oxford and McGill, he or she knows how much trouble these places are undergoing. Oxford is having financial trouble since it is still a public schools that relies on government fund that is getting less and less. It has finally paid more attention to asking for private industry to help out and ask for alumuni support. But these are still not up to par what american universities have been doing for DECADES to build up their undowment. McGill is also struggling mightily as an flagship English-speaking university within a fracophone province, i.e. no love from the government in terms of funding. The 100 million dollar donation around year 2000 might have helped some. But long-term future is still up in the air.

All in all, American universities and med schools do not obtain their swagger based on nothing. History and tradition might not be behind them, but $$$ definitely is. Oxbridge, McGill, Sorbonne (by the way, Sorbonne is not even that prestigious among French people already), etc. can only drool over the financial power of MANY American universities. Just compare the computer and library facilities for medical student education in the US to that in Canada, UK, etc. and you will notice a big big difference.

 

[Lara]

Originally posted by Thewonderer
uhm....UBC admissions is pretty much BS. That is a terrible example you used.

Perhaps in that case, but you can easily replace it with Toronto or Queens or McGill (especially as out-of-province), etc.

It's probably safe to say that in *general* Canadians need higher stats to get into med school - on the link you posted, 3.7 GPA and 33Q was described as simply average. That's competitive for high-tier if perhaps not the top 10 schools in the US. BUT very few would lay claim that Canada produces superior physicians as a result. And by the same token, I imagine that those who *do* get through SGU or Ross succesfully are in general as intelligent and competent as your typical US grad.

(btw, I just dropped by UPenn's undergrad library this weekend - and all I can say is OMG in comparison to McGill! Are you ever right there...)

 

[great north]

Originally posted by great north

...I agree. We here in Canada feel the same way about American medical schools, I mean how is it that the average applicant at the University of British Columbia with an MCAT of ~10, ~11, Q, ~11 and a medical pre-requiste average of A- or roughly 3.5 still can't even get into a medical school where their grades were acheived with exams that require written answers and effort while in America your accepted with an average MCAT of 26.5 at certain institutions and your undergarduate eduaction is pathetic as evidenced by the product that resuts. You see this is opinion lying between being (knowledge) and not-being (ignorance), it is thus rather baseless.

Alright this is the quote that I would have preferred that Thewonderer had used, as the last sentence clarifes that I am countering a previous statement. Thus please do not burn my name in effigy on a maple leaf before reading my entire post, as I know how sensitive certain people are.

Now..based on the information provided from the UBC website as stated by Thewonderer, consider:

Pre-med average of entering class in 2001 at UBC
i)80.00-84.99%(A-) 58 (43.3%)
ii)75.00-79.99%(B+) 33 (25.8%)

Average of marks of entering class 2001
i)pre-requisites 79.89%
ii)last 60 credits 84.56%
iii) overall 82.29%

Now, overall averages of refused from BC resident pool of 432
i) 80.00-84.99%(A-) 141 thus (141/432)= 32.64%
ii) 75.00-79.99%(B+) 179 thus (179/432)= 41.44%

Therefore, one can state that one is more likely to be accepted with a A- overall average than a B+ average,
where 43.3%>32.64%. While being more likely to be refused with a B+ average than with an A- average, where 41.44%>25.8%. While it is true that the majority of those accepted have a "pre-med" average of A- at (45.3%) and those that apply have a B+ average at 41.44%... I suppose that I am slighlty leaning towards agreeing with you...yet? anyway I shall let it rest.

My MCAT estimate was off a tad but not much from the average applicant and still within 0.64 when considering the VR as the greatest difference from my estimate.

Alright, I shall not continue. Lastly, yes money talks or barks or howls in the educational system yet like any dog it can bite back especially when corporations and interest groups take control.

And yes UBC admissions is BC-BS...I mean look they didn't accept me! "you're lacking 6 credits of English and 3 in biochem so we didn't even consider your application, by all means apply again"...and what wait another year?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Originally posted by Thewonderer

All in all, American universities and med schools do not obtain their swagger based on nothing. History and tradition might not be behind them, but $$$ definitely is. Oxbridge, McGill, Sorbonne (by the way, Sorbonne is not even that prestigious among French people already), etc. can only drool over the financial power of MANY American universities. Just compare the computer and library facilities for medical student education in the US to that in Canada, UK, etc. and you will notice a big big difference.

I can...by far, the Australian schools computer access/resources beat out Stanford's despite the latters financial power.

At any rate, I agree that the $$$$ are generally spent in the US; however, I'm not sure this translates to quality of education. After all, how did students learn before gleaming computer labs or brand new texts? Mentorship and faculty education. Resources are great but you have to have guidance and the ability to use them. I don't buy the argument that more money means a better education or better health care.

 

[Thewonderer]

Originally posted by Kimberli Cox
I can...by far, the Australian schools computer access/resources beat out Stanford's despite the latters financial power.

At any rate, I agree that the $$$$ are generally spent in the US; however, I'm not sure this translates to quality of education. After all, how did students learn before gleaming computer labs or brand new texts? Mentorship and faculty education. Resources are great but you have to have guidance and the ability to use them. I don't buy the argument that more money means a better education or better health care.

I am surprised that Australian school's computer system would beat Stanford's. Can it beat MIT's, Cornell's, Harvard's, Drexel's (the most wired school in the US), Carnigie Mellon's, etc.? Or since you are at Hershey, how does your old school's computer system compare to the one that Hershy students have acccess to right now?

Mentorship and faculty education/retention are better in many parts of the US. Do you know for Oxford, a biology professor (i.e. tutor) gets paid 20k pounds from the university and 15k from the college (and if the college is rich like Magdelen, St. John, Queen's or Christ Church, the tutor might get 20k from the college)? And when you combine both contracts together, a full-time professor does not get more than 40k a year! With cost of living that high in UK, that's translated to 40k US in terms of buying power. On top of that, at Oxford, they make you do lectureship and work in other people's lab for a couple years before giving you the fund to start your own lab (Even Penn State can throw more money around). With those factors combined, a lot of them would jump the ship to come to the US. The only thing holding some of the tutors back are the prestige of Oxford and their love for tutorial teaching. Some of them also publish books and don't need their university contract sole income. But you will be surprised how much $$$ does contribute to mentorship and faculty education/retention.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

what about a carribbean DO? where do they rank?

 

[dknykid1980]

LOL


BLITZKRIEG, nice one. Caribbean DO....

anyways....ok listen guys/gals I've been under a lot of stress given my busy week, so I apologize for coming off as a elitist american med school attendee. HOwever, I still can not fathom how anyone can ever justify Caribbean med schools as being as great as US med schools. Do you all even know why they were established? They were initially established for kids who have a lot of money who cant get into a US school to buy their way into med school! I think its a pretty indisputable fact that those 'institutions' if you may, are solely for financial gain of their owners and were not built to further the betterment of patients!

Oh by the way I think it was Great north or someone who tried attacking me by stating that I went into medicine for the money, thus the use of 'a$$hole'. For your information, i was merely mirroring what SKIp over there used, sorry for not giving its author credit, maybe i'll put quotes around it next time. In addition, by no means am i doing this for the money! LOL...I think I would be making a lot more if I went into a business field, but it was a nice try to make my argument void. Next to Lara. I'm glad you got into a US school, sorry to hear about the Canadian thing. However, what's your point? Friends of mine got into Ivy League med schools and not schools in the midwest, so does that make mid west schools harder to get into? I'll admit there is a lot of fate that guys into the admissions process. HOwever, it's one thing to try again next year and try to become an American educated physician rather than 'hey let me give up and go to the caribbean' style doc. There are people that are in their 30's in my class who are M1's and theyve been trying for a while to get in.....my admiration lies with them who worked their tails off and pursued an education here and did not give up and go to the caribbean! I know kids that have gotten into caribbean med schools (ROSS and AUC) straight out of high school a couple of years ago....what does that say about their quality?

The fact of the matter is that we can argue about this topic forever and I'm sure we will. However, what the program directors at residencies and elsewhere see are US schools being better than all other foreign institutions. And another thing. Let's not fool ourselves here. I've known TONS of family friends who have no business pursuing medicine based on their grades, scores, and their sole intention of going into medicine for the money. SKIP you know that's the case! I'm sure there could be the exception here and there. DID you all know that ROss doesnt even require a BS/BA degree to get into? They dont even require the MCATs! they only ask for the MCATs to do statistical analysis. I ask you all what kind of 'school' is this? If you dont believe me call them up or go visit their website! I'm telling you, when I went to their interview it was a complete sales pitch! But I suppose in Skip's mind he would have you consider that place a medical school.

Like I said before. I apologize for coming on like such an elitist, however, I will not allow nor stand for someone like SKIP to come on here and TRY to equivocate US (or for that matter state that Caribbean grads have better clinical expertise) schools with caribbean schools. HERE's the bottom line. All things (grades, interview, mcat scores, etc) being excellent and you had a choice of a US school with that of a foreign institution where would you go???? I can tell you that when I did talk to M2's at SGU when I CONSIDERED the school, they ALL told me that they would be trying to transfer to US schools their third year. So it seems to be a consensus that US schools are more yearned for.

but of course skippy would have you feel otherwise. Good luck.

 

[great north]

I am so glad you wrote us back sir,

Originally posted by dknykid1980
LOL


1) "HOwever, I still can not fathom how anyone can ever justify Caribbean med schools as being as great as US med schools. Do you all even know why they were established? They were initially established for kids who have a lot of money who cant get into a US school to buy their way into med school! I think its a pretty indisputable fact that those 'institutions' if you may, are solely for financial gain of their owners and were not built to further the betterment of patients! " dknykid1980


I beleive I and others have already made the claim that post secondary education where medical education is by no means different, is run like a buissness despite where the institution may be located. Furthermore, do you truely believe that the medical schools of the world including north america teach for the betterment of patients? Please explain your logic. If you mean to say that they produce competent physicians and surgons, then simply attending the given institution would be grounds enough to bestow the MD degree without the need for external examinations by the NBME. Yet the later is done and foreign grads if they meet certain criteria are welcome to take the given exam (ex USMLE, and what other exams for residency).

Furthermore, consider your statement "They [carib med schools] were initially established for kids who have a lot of money who can't get into a US school to buy their way into med school!". Firstly let us allow the acceptance into medical school to be substituted by buisness school (MBA program). I now ask the question...Did the current president of the USA obtain an acceptance into Harvard's MBA program based on his undergarduate performance at Yale, or was it his charming character and intellectual brilliance, or was Daddy's money and influence?

2)"Oh by the way I think it was Great north or someone who tried attacking me by stating that I went into medicine for the money, thus the use of 'a$$hole'." dknykid1980


I did not imply sir that you had entered medicine for monitary gain; rather, that I found it interesting, in a sarcastic way, that you had used $$ to substitute 'ss' in a discussion where you were trying to undermine the legitamacy of caribbean medical schools for being for profit. I thus thought it to be a subconscious admission that indeed $$ are involved in medical education where north american schools are by no means excused.

3)" I know kids that have gotten into caribbean med schools (ROSS and AUC) straight out of high school a couple of years ago....what does that say about their quality?" dknykid1980

I come from four generations of physicians and surgons who received their undergraduate medical education in the country of their birth where those who desired to enter the faculty of medicine did so at the age of 18 after writting an entrance examination, where their program was of five years duration the first year being similar to our medical pre-requisites. Thus, while it is better to study at a university and obtain an undergraduate degree, the notion of highschool gradautes entering medicine is or was found elsewhere in the world.

4)" However, what the program directors at residencies and elsewhere see are US schools being better than all other foreign institutions." dknykid1980

Naturally, they are going to say so, just as certain american medical professionals would claim that they have the best health care in the world.

5)" DID you all know that ROss doesnt even require a BS/BA degree to get into?" dknykid1980

Neither did the university where my great-grandfather, grandfather, uncles and cousins matriculated.

6) "They dont even require the MCATs! they only ask for the MCATs to do statistical analysis. dknykid1980

Neither does McMaster Medical School, the school whose revolutionary curriculum was adobted by Harvard

http://www.fhs.mcmaster.ca/mdprog/admissions.htm

7) "I ask you all what kind of 'school' is this? If you dont believe me call them up or go visit their website! " dynykid1980

One that gives many any opportunity not provided by their own institutions in their country of residence and allows the students own abilities and effort to determine their worthiness to enter the profession of God's work on earth...no not preaching...medicine.

8)"I'm telling you, when I went to their interview it was a complete sales pitch! But I suppose in Skip's mind he would have you consider that place a medical school. " dknykid1980

Yes it was a sales pitch...Not that much dissimilar from schools who lay claim to having high USMLE pass rates..for sale is a seat in a lecture theatre. Yet at Ross their were classes on biochemistry, anatomy, pathology etc...no voodoo medicine, thus it seemed like a medical school to me.

9)"Like I said before. I apologize for coming on like such an elitist, however, I will not allow nor stand for someone like SKIP to come on here and TRY to equivocate US (or for that matter state that Caribbean grads have better clinical expertise) schools with caribbean schools. " dknykid1980

Clinical expertise comes from experience not from sitting in lecture hall. Furthermore, there are far better clinicians in third world countries who have to rely on observation, history taking and a solid foundation of knowledge of the classical medical subjects...this is clinical expertise. Not running around in a panic because the lab tech isn't back with the desired lab results (sometimes needed, sometimes only required to avoid litigation)

10) "HERE's the bottom line. All things (grades, interview, mcat scores, etc) being excellent and you had a choice of a US school with that of a foreign institution where would you go???? I can tell you that when I did talk to M2's at SGU when I CONSIDERED the school, they ALL told me that they would be trying to transfer to US schools their third year. So it seems to be a consensus that US schools are more yearned for." dknykid1980

If you are american.

I am so glad that God made me a jackass

 

[Thewonderer]

Originally posted by Lara

It's probably safe to say that in *general* Canadians need higher stats to get into med school - on the link you posted, 3.7 GPA and 33Q was described as simply average. That's competitive for high-tier if perhaps not the top 10 schools in the US. BUT very few would lay claim that Canada produces superior physicians as a result. And by the same token, I imagine that those who *do* get through SGU or Ross succesfully are in general as intelligent and competent as your typical US grad.

I don't quite agree with the first part of the paragraph. I think that you and Great North have been exaggerating the difficulty of getting into Canadian med schools while downplaying the difficulty of getting into American med schools.

First of all, in Canadian undergrads, 80% as a cut off for A- is SIMPLY low. I personally know 5 friends from highschool who have gotten 90%+ at Queen's and UBC. Yes, every year, Canadian schools weed out lots of people and they have to transfer out to Langara or other community colleges to wait their chance to transfer back to university. However, I would say that's because there is no standard between different highschools in Canada. There is no "SAT" equivalent. Some highschools like mine did well preparing their kids (and my friends have therefore creamed their competition at Queen's and UBC). HOwever, plenty of highschools give out easy A's and when their kids get to UBC, U of T, McGill, etc., they get slammed!!! There is no Ivy in Canada whose kids are not only in top 10% of their highschool classes but ALSO within top 5-10% on a STANDARDIZED academic exam (i.e. SAT). I mean, a few years back, highschool teachers intentionally bumped their students' English grade by a few percentages so they would be eligible for OSI (a $2,000 tuition scholarship given out by UBC for EVERY first-year student who carried 86% average from highschool, with a stipulation that they also had A- or higher in English). Come on!!! If there were a verbal SAT equivalent in Canada, these highschool teachers could not cheat the system. Now, UBC has finally done away with OSI (which was a stupid idea anyway. why not require A- or higher in Math? why did it have to be english? that was bs).

Secondly, it takes more than 33 MCAT to be competitive at top 10 US med schools if you are not an URM.

Third, you hear people getting into American schools while getting rejected from Canadian schools. Well, I am sure if EVERYONE who applied to UBC med also apply to Stanford med, 90% of them will not EVEN get an interview. Then, you will hear how much harder it is to get into American med than Canadian med.

 

[great north]

Originally posted by Thewonderer
I don't quite agree with the first part of the paragraph. I think that you and Great North have been exaggerating the difficulty of getting into Canadian med schools while downplaying the difficulty of getting into American med schools.

Yes, every year, Canadian schools weed out lots of people and they have to transfer out to Langara or other community colleges to wait their chance to transfer back to university. However, I would say that's because there is no standard between different highschools in Canada. There is no "SAT" equivalent. Some highschools like mine did well preparing their kids (and my friends have therefore creamed their competition at Queen's and UBC). HOwever, plenty of highschools give out easy A's and when their kids get to UBC, U of T, McGill, etc., they get slammed!!! There is no Ivy in Canada whose kids are not only in top 10% of their highschool classes but ALSO within top 5-10% on a STANDARDIZED academic exam (i.e. SAT).

I mean, a few years back, highschool teachers intentionally bumped their students' English grade by a few percentages so they would be eligible for OSI (a $2,000 tuition scholarship given out by UBC for EVERY first-year student who carried 86% average from highschool, with a stipulation that they also had A- or higher in English). Come on!!! If there were a verbal SAT equivalent in Canada, these highschool teachers could not cheat the system. Now, UBC has finally done away with OSI (which was a stupid idea anyway. why not require A- or higher in Math? why did it have to be english? that was bs).

Secondly, it takes more than 33 MCAT to be competitive at top 10 US med schools if you are not an URM.

Third, you hear people getting into American schools while getting rejected from Canadian schools. Well, I am sure if EVERYONE who applied to UBC med also apply to Stanford med, 90% of them will not EVEN get an interview. Then, you will hear how much harder it is to get into American med than Canadian med.

1) If Canadian medical schools are not more challenging to gain acceptance to then why have you matriculated at an American school? Was is it your first choice?

2) While a national standardized exam would be a good idea in Canada, I hardly think that any high school anywhere can fully prepare one for the rigours of Canadian undergraduate challenges. Yes, I too have seen friends/acquaintences with 4.0 highschool averages get "slammed", but that was more to do with entering an environment in Canadian universities where, at least in the faculty of engineering at Concordia, the philosophy was- we are going to do our best to fail you, and indeed we started with 50 students and by the end only about 25 recieved their B.Eng. Personally, I would have it no other way. We demand free thinking, exams that require written answers showing how you arrived to your solution and that was the same philosopy in the faculty of sciences when I was taking my medical pre-reqs...Organic, Biochem, even cell and intro biology all of it was problems with written answers and essays with a minor component containing multiple choice. Certain American universities hold on to these ideals as they ought to, yet certain of my dear american friends from Ross have told me that they were evaluated mainly based on multiple choice exams...hardly a measure of ones intellectual prowess and abilities to form a response backed by a reasonable line of thought based on logic...merrily my opinion on the matter.

Furthermore, we don't need an 'Ivy league' in Canada, as to my opinion all are major universities are of excellent quality. This I can only support with personal interactions which I have had with students from Columbia, Harvard and some other institutions whom I met in Italy and who if amoung the top 10% of american children are not very impressesive. Yet I know that there are others who are undoubtedly of good quality, two of my cousins have attended Harvard and some of their friends are quite well educated.

In reference to the grade inflation by english teachers, this is indeed a travesty . However, as my cousin has informed me at Harvard grade inflation is a common occurance and his sister before joining her brother also informed me that her previous university ( University of Chicago) is not only of better quality in certain colleges but is more challenging and thus achieving an A grade proportionally more difficult. I have yet to see grade inflation at candian universities; however, there is by no means an improvement in morality by simply crossing the US/Canadian border northward.

Finally, naturally if those that appllied to UBC also applied to Stanford 90% would not even get an interview, as they would be considered foreign applicants which would be an additional hurdle for them. My dear cousin, aforementionned, is at Stanford medical college as he ought to be.

I love my country very much and I would like very much to return there to practice, yet America (or an american off-shore school) has offered me an opportunity to follow my desire, there is no more to the matter than that.

I am so glad that God made me a jackass

 

[Lara]

Originally posted by Thewonderer
First of all, in Canadian undergrads, 80% as a cut off for A- is SIMPLY low.

Valid point taken there.

Secondly, it takes more than 33 MCAT to be competitive at top 10 US med schools if you are not an URM.

I never said it was. Below that though, I imagine it would be within range (if we agree that top 25 or so = high tier?) Of course excellent EC's, etc would be necessary as well to help stand out from others with similar stats applying.

Third, you hear people getting into American schools while getting rejected from Canadian schools. Well, I am sure if EVERYONE who applied to UBC med also apply to Stanford med, 90% of them will not EVEN get an interview. Then, you will hear how much harder it is to get into American med than Canadian med.

I absolutely don't doubt that the top schools in the States are much harder to get into...heck, I never even bothered listing them on AMCAS! If I could have gotten into the likes of UPenn I'd already have been at McGill anyway. But the essential difference is that in the US there are a heck of a lot more options for those with 3.5 and 30 who don't happen to get love from their state school. I believe that statistically there *are* more spots per applicant in the States than Canada (I've read 1/3 vs. 1/4 but maybe someone can find the exact figures). And I don't think there's an Ontario school (except possibly McMaster?) that accepts anyone with less than 3.6 GPA in addition to various hard and fast MCAT cut-offs. That's certainly not the norm as far as I know in the US. In any case, that's what I was basing my comments on. And I'm sorry this thread got so off course from the original question which certainly is a tough decision to make...

DKNY, it's cool - I think we can agree that the Caribbean isn't an ideal option compared to being in an allopath US school. But neither is it a career death knell provided you apply yourself and hopefully have a positive attitude. It's best not to judge anyone based on their school, especially since there's so much randomness in the application process anyway.

 

[drtedjefferson]

As a caribbean graduate who did make it through the hoops and tests and got into residency, let me strongly suggest D.O.school

 

[dknykid1980]

see the above post is exactly what i'm trying to get at.

Look at it skippy, its one of your own colleagues! I dont even know the guy so you can rest assure skippy that i didnt tell him to say that!

 

[Thewonderer]

Originally posted by great north
1) If Canadian medical schools are not more challenging to gain acceptance to then why have you matriculated at an American school? Was is it your first choice?

That's irrelevant to the discussion. If you want to think that I got rejected from all Canadian med schools and have to settle with an expensive US private school, then so be it. If you want to think that I got into all the schools I applied to on both sides of the border, but decided to enroll at med school on the caliber of Hopkins, Columbia, UCSF, Penn,etc., then that's fine with me too. I know what I am talking about in our discussion. That's all that matters.

2) While a national standardized exam would be a good idea in Canada, I hardly think that any high school anywhere can fully prepare one for the rigours of Canadian undergraduate challenges.

You are seriously, vastly exaggerating the "rigor" of Canadian undergraduate education.

Yes, I too have seen friends/acquaintences with 4.0 highschool averages get "slammed", but that was more to do with entering an environment in Canadian universities where, at least in the faculty of engineering at Concordia, the philosophy was- we are going to do our best to fail you, and indeed we started with 50 students and by the end only about 25 recieved their B.Eng.

again, that's because there is no standard across the grades that highschools in Canada give to their kids. Some kids who got A's and B's in highschools have no business to be at a university. And university will have to fail them to maintain "some" sort of standard.

Furthermore, we don't need an 'Ivy league' in Canada, as to my opinion all are major universities are of excellent quality. This I can only support with personal interactions which I have had with students from Columbia, Harvard and some other institutions whom I met in Italy and who if amoung the top 10% of american children are not very impressesive. Yet I know that there are others who are undoubtedly of good quality, two of my cousins have attended Harvard and some of their friends are quite well educated.

What are you trying to get at? Some harvard kids are intelligent while some got in through family connection or parental donation or personal luck? we already know that. Same as some kids at Concordia are dumb, while others are smart.....

However, as my cousin has informed me at Harvard grade inflation is a common occurance....I have yet to see grade inflation at candian universities; however, there is by no means an improvement in morality by simply crossing the US/Canadian border northward.

It is easy to talk stuff from the outside and say how easy it is to get A's at Harvard when their mean GPA is probably 3.6. But unless you really go to Harvard, you cannot tell. I had a friend from highschool who went to UBC science and got 93+%. He cruised through UBC for two years and then transferred to Harvard where he majored in econ. Eventually, he only spent two years of tuition to get a Harvard degree (he obviously had scholarship from UBC to cover his first two years there). He had around 3.7-3.8 from Harvard, but that's hardly 4.0 which he had from UBC. So which place is tougher in terms of grading?

Finally, naturally if those that appllied to UBC also applied to Stanford 90% would not even get an interview, as they would be considered foreign applicants which would be an additional hurdle for them. My dear cousin, aforementionned, is at Stanford medical college as he ought to be.

So you agree with me that it is harder to get into Stanford med than UBC med?

I love my country very much and I would like very much to return there to practice, yet America (or an american off-shore school) has offered me an opportunity to follow my desire, there is no more to the matter than that.

All Canadians including me love Canada. But one needs to be a self-assured, confident Canadian and not the one who puts down another country while saying how great Canada is.

Originally posted by great north
The average applicant at the University of British Columbia with an MCAT of ~10, ~11, Q, ~11 and a medical pre-requiste average of A- or roughly 3.5 still can't even get into a medical school where their grades were acheived with exams that require written answers and effort while in America your accepted with an average MCAT of 26.5 at certain institutions and your undergarduate eduaction is pathetic as evidenced by the product that resuts.... Furthermore, we don't need an 'Ivy league' in Canada, as to my opinion all are major universities are of excellent quality. This I can only support with personal interactions which I have had with students from Columbia, Harvard and some other institutions whom I met in Italy and who if amoung the top 10% of american children are not very impressesive.

 

[great north]

Originally posted by Thewonderer
1) That's irrelevant to the discussion. If you want to think that I got rejected from all Canadian med schools and have to settle with an expensive US private school, then so be it. If you want to think that I got into all the schools I applied to on both sides of the border, but decided to enroll at med school on the caliber of Hopkins, Columbia, UCSF, Penn,etc., then that's fine with me too. I know what I am talking about in our discussion. That's all that matters.

2) You are seriously, vastly exaggerating the "rigor" of Canadian undergraduate education.

3) again, that's because there is no standard across the grades that highschools in Canada give to their kids. Some kids who got A's and B's in highschools have no business to be at a university. And university will have to fail them to maintain "some" sort of standard.

4) What are you trying to get at? Some harvard kids are intelligent while some got in through family connection or parental donation or personal luck? we already know that. Same as some kids at Concordia are dumb, while others are smart.....

5)...He cruised through UBC for two years and then transferred to Harvard where he majored in econ. Eventually, he only spent two years of tuition to get a Harvard degree (he obviously had scholarship from UBC to cover his first two years there). He had around 3.7-3.8 from Harvard, but that's hardly 4.0 which he had from UBC. So which place is tougher in terms of grading?

6) So you agree with me that it is harder to get into Stanford med than UBC med?

7) All Canadians including me love Canada. But one needs to be a self-assured, confident Canadian and not the one who puts down another country while saying how great Canada is.

1) It is a relevant question as it may indicate that you have been more fortunate to gain admission to an american medical institution than a canadian school where either different aspects of your application were weighed more heavily than others or that perhaps the overall standards required for matriculation were lower. Your input thererore would help to elucidate towards the facts.

2) That is your personal opinion and you welcome to it.

3) In the province of Quebec the majority of university matriculants first pass through CEGEP which is essentially two years college which provides a base upon which they enter university, which can to a certain degree help even the 'playing field' as to any discrepancy that may exist within the highschool system in Quebec. I personally lacked the university level calculus and physics required for engineering that my counterparts had and consequently I suffered my first year, this was due to the faculty of engineering admissions commitee not noting that my previous work at technical college was not adequate preparation for engineering and not a reflection of any discrepancy between the various high school eduactional systems. Furthermore, if A and B grades are not an indication that an individual is worthy of study at a university than how can a standardized test be a better indication, where the latter is an evaluation in a moment in time where those who can perform well on such an exam may only demonstrate certain cognitive skills and test taking abilities, while the former form of evaluation may be a better indication of work ethic, time management, participation in class and communication skills, which I hardly think are accurately measured by a given standardized test. Thus a combination of both means of evaluation would be preferred, certainly without the exclusion of a highschoolers class grades.

4) I am meerily stating that our undergraduate education is more uniform in its quality amoungst the various institutions, while in America there appears to be a greater divide between the quality of the various institutions at the undergraduate level.

5) A difference of 0.3-0.2 from a perfect 4.0 average would only indicate that perhaps 2-3 of his courses dropped in grade, which could also be due to a change in venue and city. We would need a larger pool of data to come to a conclusion on the matter.

6) Yes, in that it would be harder for a UBC applicant or matriculant to be accepted in to Stanford's medical program being a foreign applicant.

7) I am stating my opinion of canadian undergraduate education only and hardly putting down any other country; furthermore, I have quit enough self assuredness not to have to demean or as you say 'put down' anyone or any nation. Finally, as you are no doubt sir a self-assured and confident canadian who loves his country shall you be returning here to practice and aid our nation during these difficult times in our health care system?

I am so glad that God made me a jackass

 

[DoubleDoctor]

At Miami, every year they start out with about 240-250 kids seeking BS's in chem or biochem and they graduate 7-9 each year. This rest flunk out, decide to get a BA because it's easier and doesn't require near as many upper level chem classes, or they switch majors to something else so starting out with 50 and graduating 25 doesn't seem like that bad to me.

 

[great north]

Originally posted by DoubleDoctor
At Miami, every year they start out with about 240-250 kids seeking BS's in chem or biochem and they graduate 7-9 each year. This rest flunk out, decide to get a BA because it's easier and doesn't require near as many upper level chem classes, or they switch majors to something else so starting out with 50 and graduating 25 doesn't seem like that bad to me.

Yes statistically speaking you are correct, yet does this not say that a good majority of the 240-250 who matriculated into the faculty of science ought not to have been accepted into such a program?
Furthermore, does it not also indicate that if standardized exams such as the SAT are in place to determine an individual's worthiness or ability in comparison to his or her counterparts then in this instance in Miami its ability to do so is thus questionable?
Or is the admissions commitee at Miami deciding that it is best to allow many an opportunity, despite Sat scores and the like, then allow the individuals own ability and effort decide their fate in obtaining a well deserved B.Sc; this then returning to the initial topic of Caribbean medical schools, would be a policy very much in line with american and /or democratic ideals of allowing an individuals effort, drive and talents to determine their future.

I am so glad that God made me a jackass

 

[mongoose]

Originally posted by dknykid1980
see the above post is exactly what i'm trying to get at.

Look at it skippy, its one of your own colleagues! I dont even know the guy so you can rest assure skippy that i didnt tell him to say that!

your constant calling skip intro by a name he has already indicatred he dislikes indicates how chilidish and immature you are. get a life. and dkny is for preppy, sissy boys with small penises.

 

[Thewonderer]

Originally posted by great north
1) It is a relevant question as it may indicate that you have been more fortunate to gain admission to an american medical institution than a canadian school where either different aspects of your application were weighed more heavily than others or that perhaps the overall standards required for matriculation were lower. Your input thererore would help to elucidate towards the facts.

Sorry, you are not getting the answer from me.

At least we agree that we definitely disagree on many issues.

Thus a combination of both means of evaluation would be preferred, certainly without the exclusion of a highschoolers class grades.

For your point number 3, it highlights the issue of non-standardization more.... Not only highschool, but technical college suffer the pitfall. From the beginning, I have mentioned the use of both grades (in the context of class rank) and "sat" equivalent. You actually agree with me... I said that grades can be subjective, but classrank + sat equivalent, that you cannot cheat.

4) I am meerily stating that our undergraduate education is more uniform in its quality amoungst the various institutions, while in America there appears to be a greater divide between the quality of the various institutions at the undergraduate level.

I thought somewhere you mentioned that in your humble opinion, harvard and columbia kids are sadly not that impressive (except your own cousins and his friends?!). So I guess your meaning of great divide is that MIT is on the good side while Harvard, Columbia, Ohio State, Emerson college are all on the bad side.

I never meant to use my friend as a statistical example. But at least I know someone personally who has been to both institutions and you don't. He was humbled at how smart kids at Harvard are. There is no such concentration of smart kids at UBC, period. Canadian universities are all pretty equal in terms of its high quality, but don't exaggerate it because getting 80% (3.7 average) at UBC and the like is not that hard. At UBC, science scholars are awarded only to those with 90+% (A+ average) and I don't hear people getting scholarships while maintaining 80% (A- average) at UBC. And there is a reason for that; there are too many of them alone in the 80-90% range.

7) Finally, as you are no doubt sir a self-assured and confident canadian who loves his country shall you be returning here to practice and aid our nation during these difficult times in our health care system?

You are getting ridiculous here. Not every thing about Canada I like nor I like everything about England (where I studied abroad at Oxford during my junior year), US (where I have spent the last 6-7 years of my life getting education), or the Asian country where I lived for the first 11 years of my life. I agree with the universality of medical care. However, I do not agree with Canadian government's attempt to limit specialty choices for Canadian medical graduates year after year where they try to look into a crystal ball and guess what specialty will have "shortage" in the future and allocate available residency slots. I do not agree with some of the laws that were attempted to be passed in BC that semi-force new graduates to practice outside of Vancouver. I do not agree with physicians going ON STRIKE in BC and othe provinces during this past year or so (you ever heard of American docs going on strike?).

Outside of medicine, I do not agree with Quebec's discriminatory law against having signs in any language (including English) whose characters or alphabets are bigger than those in French. Come on. Even in Chinatown, the chinese characters have to be smaller than French letters?! The list can go on and on....

Therefore, I will go through residency in the US where some of the residency programs (internal medicine, neurology, psychiatry, etc.) are shorter by one year than the counterparts offered in Canada. I will then earn my tuition back in US (not Canadian) dollars since I have been getting my higher education exclusively outside of Canada. Then I will decide with my family what I want to do later on, whether it be in Canada or the US.

And if everything with the word "Canada" excites you so much and you also want to devote yourself to everything Canadian, be sure to send me a postcard from Nunavut once you decide to spend the next 20 years of yourself giving that region its needed health care, infrastructure, education, etc. Until then, you are getting a little ridiculous in your last argument against me.