DO vs. Caribbean MD

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Hello Guys, I've been in touch with SDN network for a while but these idiot's wouldn't let me log on to the network,finally! I got thru. Anyways, two of my best friends are in touro and another best freind and co-worker is doing his residency in nevada. he graduated from St. George Carribeans, Just to let you guys know USMLE plays a big role in residencies. DO with barely passing score not going to get Radiology Residency and same goes with Caribean Grad. My uncle is a chief of nuclear medicine in NY and he finished his med school in India, he is also one of the best known rediologist in nation. Lots or IM residencies go unfilled each year and prety much every foreign grad gets an residency. that is 99.9%. Anyways guys just wanted to let you know that if you can't get in here st. george or Ross is really good and you will do fine. There is many different ways to climb mt everest, as long as you have a will.

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Originally posted by ne14
DO with barely passing score not going to get Radiology Residency and same goes with Caribean Grad.

Ummm... the same goes for MDs from American schools too. Low board scores aren't going to get you far, regardless of the degree you hold. Likewise, high board scores will open many (but not all) doors for you -- again, regardless of the degree you hold.

I just posted a new thread entitled "The Great Medical School Myth (EXPOSED)." Everyone who participated in this thread desperately needs to read it.
 
I have a question.

why do they build med. schools on those islands? why can't they build some inside the usa?

And if there can be law schools that open at night, why ccan't they open more med schools , so at least everyone can get in!?!

why do they have to keep md. school the only school that actually reject people? why can't they let the graduates find their own careers? i don't know any other types of schools that limit its own enrollment nationwide.
 
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I really hate looking at the topic to this thread. I cant believe people still think this is an issue, especially with the tougher visa laws that are going to start trickling their way down to everything that takes place offshore but involves US infrastructure, let alone the health care of the American public! When it comes to security, the government doesnt like what it cant control, and offshore schools are one of those things, let alone what would happen if some terrorist cell is found to have the slighest possibility of ties or members on one of these islands.

Anyway, the question of not building more domestic medical schools isnt a question of limiting supply and increasing demand so doctors can be more prestigious or make more money. There will actually be a severe physician shortage over the next 10-20 years, especially in some geographical areas and specialties. The medical malpractice crisis will exacerbate this even more. The basis for the number of doctors in the country is based on the feds and their checkbook. They fund residency programs for the most part. For example, in NY, a hospital will get close to $120,000 from the government for each resident on it's staff. The hospital in turn pays the resident less than 40K and throws another 20K in for malpractice insurance. That means the hospital is still banking close to 60K a year from each resident before he/she even sees a patient. This is even an indirect reason many DOs go to MD residencies. From my experience, MD residency programs in NY, which are usually larger than DO programs and have greater financial pressures to fill their spots, actively recruit DOs to their programs to ensure they receive ample funding from the government. Hence, this aggressive recruiting effort is a reason DOs go MD residency vs DO, not necessarily the quality of a program per-se. Hospitals need more doctors for cash-sake and doctors often run hospitals, hence many doctors wouldnt mind more doctors. Is their a limit, of course, but it's a great way for hospitals to make money. Plus, they can hold a resident after hours and not pay an attending salary. As far as medical schools, they would all love the extra students. They need cash too and students equal tuition dollars and even government cash if the student qualifies, especially for some under-represented minority groups. Thus, moral of the story, if the government increases funding for residency programs (which Bush is actually looking to cut), you'll see many medical schools increase their class sizes. Until that time, the schools are stuck because there's nowhere for their graduates to go. Test scores and gpas come after economics and the schools have learned that a mid 20s mcat will still do as well if not better than a 30... and the tuition and government checks dont bounce.
 
I don't think that it is right to keep the all the so many potential eager students away from med. schools!

It is time to lower their salaries, it is time to change their status. They are no different than the auto mechanics. when you have a problem with your car, you got to fix it right away.

I am not saying that every low life can work in a hospital.
There are those many USMLE tests to take, many board certified tests to take. Anyone who can pass those required tests shall have the rights to practice medicine.

there is no just no reason to make med. school so competitive! if people are willing to pay for pubic or private medical schools to get a medical education, let them have the freedom to choose!



Originally posted by Molybdenum
Because if everybody who wants to be a doctor gets into medical school, the profession of medicine would lose its attractiveness. There will be tons of doctors around, leading to decreased salary, and eventually the social status of physicians will be lowered. I think it's very very important for medical school admission to remain highly competitive, because only the BEST and the BRIGHTEST people should be doctors. I certainly don't want people who fail undergrad bio classes to be my doctor...
 
They are no different than the auto mechanics. when you have a problem with your car, you got to fix it right away.

you have a point but....if you miss diagnose a bum muffler no one dies;)
 
Originally posted by dknykid1980
LOL i agree!

These things are just getting waaay tooo long. Plus I give up. People like Skip and whoever else arent going to change the way they think, so what's the point.

Aight later...gotta go study.

:laugh: :laugh:

Perhaps it is you yourself among the insecure, pseudo-arrogant, and self-righteous who needs to "change the way they think".

Is that a possibility?

By the way, I'm back in the U.S. full-time now.
 
this is the order


US MD
CANADA MD
US DO
OTHER
 
Hey there buddy


you know just because you are doing rotations at one of the worst and almost banqrupt hospitals in the US ALONGside US grads doesnt make you a US med school grad. I know you are feeling really insecure about your foreign degree granted to you via a diploma mill located offshore, but it's ok. Remember, you are only doing your rotations there and since Ross has $$ you are doing it in the US. you are still a caribbean grad....so stop trying to hide it. It's like when a new owner buys a beat up, used car and decides to paint it. THe car may look nice, but we all know the engine, and the internals are all substandard. So like the car you use the 'paint' to hide your 'caribbeanness' yet you are still a carib grad.

So good luck though. I hope some residency directors bust your balls, cuz boy are you trying to lead newcomers in the wrong direction!

tootles
 
Originally posted by youngjock


It is time to lower their salaries, it is time to change their status. They are no different than the auto mechanics. when you have a problem with your car, you got to fix it right away.


I think it goes something like this...

An Auto Mechanic and a Surgeon are sitting around drinking a beer one day. The Auto Mechanic says to the Surgeon:

"Hey...you and me are a lot alike."

"How's that?" replies the Surgeon.

"Well," responds the Auto Mechanic, "we both work on valuable things...me on cars, you on people...we both fix those things...we both use a whole bucnh of tools that in anothers hands would seem foreign...and we both go home at the end of the day knowing we helped someone."

The Surgeon takes a sip of his beer, nodding his head in agreement.

"Very true," begins the Surgeon, "but there is one thing that makes our jobs a bit different, and sorry to say, mine a bit more difficult and challenging than yours...I would even say a bit more important."

"Oh really...whats that?!" pipes the Auto Mechanic.

The Surgeon replies, "Well...have you ever overhauled an engine while the car was running?"



Ahh...now before you get all riled up, let's take a quit shot at surgeons.

Q to surgeon: "Where do you hide a stethescope from a surgeon?"

A from surgeon: "What's a stethescope?"

Happy Holidays.

God bless everyone (surgeons too!) :)
 
Originally posted by Tech
I applied to both DO and MD schools. I just want to be a physician. I have heard great things about OMT. OMT is not a chiropractic function. It is beyond that. OMTers intends on healing ailments and are not looking for routine visits as some chiropractors are. I think that if one truly wants to become a physician and has an inner desire to heal and be challenged throughout their medical career than either DO or MD should do the job.

Some will say that DO surpasses MD in that OMT augments the traditional medical education. Through OMT, DO's may have better musculoskeletal (hope I spelled that right) anatomy skills. They may even have an advantage over MD's at orthopaedic surgery. I don't know, but one could clearly argue this.

I will glady go to either MD or DO schools. I think that on the most part, DO schools have smaller class sizes. I know one MD that wishes she was a DO. She said that both have the same end result and same pay, but DO education was easier. I really doubt that because how the hell would she know. Did she go to both MD and DO schools? How could anyoe say that unless they have been to both types of schools?

About the osteopathic philosophy. It makes perfect sense to me. I don't think it proposes anyhting radical.

Overall, I have a burning desire to become a physician, so I would just choose a school, whether DO or MD, based on convenience.

This is probably one of the most educated and clear posts that I have seen from a premed in 3 years on SDN.

You will undoubtedly do fine Tech, MD or DO.

Know why? Medicine is about ATTITUDE.

Not HAVING an attitude...but projecting a postive attitude.

At the end of the day, we are all physicians. Thrown forth with one goal in mind...to heal our fellow man.

Best of luck to you Tech...I look forward to following your progress. If you ever need advice, please feel free to PM me about anything.

Happy Holidays

JPHazelton
 
Originally posted by dknykid1980
Hey there buddy


you know just because you are doing rotations at one of the worst and almost banqrupt hospitals in the US ALONGside US grads doesnt make you a US med school grad. I know you are feeling really insecure about your foreign degree granted to you via a diploma mill located offshore, but it's ok. Remember, you are only doing your rotations there and since Ross has $$ you are doing it in the US. you are still a caribbean grad....so stop trying to hide it. It's like when a new owner buys a beat up, used car and decides to paint it. THe car may look nice, but we all know the engine, and the internals are all substandard. So like the car you use the 'paint' to hide your 'caribbeanness' yet you are still a carib grad.

So good luck though. I hope some residency directors bust your balls, cuz boy are you trying to lead newcomers in the wrong direction!

Boy, you are just so incredibly full of yourself, aren't you? I think the astoundingly arrogant and uninformed tripe you've posted here speaks volumes. I hope you are a PGY-1 to my PGY-2 someday, that's all I can say. Still, I just don't know what the medical profession is going to do with such an arrogant little pr!ck like you.

You need to get some facts. And, you need to click on this link, listen to all of it, and then take it to heart:

http://www.rossmed.edu/Medical_School/tim_foster.wma

Originally posted by dknykid1980
tootles

I've been meaning to ask you this for a long time, I don't mean to offend, but are you gay? Of course, I'm not myself and I don't have a problem with anyone being gay, but from what I've heard the D.C. area is a good place for gay men to meet. I hope you haven't been disappointed.

Oh, by the way... didn't you pen some of these?


[email protected]
May 14 2002 at 5:57 PM
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dknykid1980 (no login)

well since i 've just recently gotten into SGU also I'm really confused. I was all gungho about attending Ross, however, I hear good things about SGU also. However, I think i want to go to Ross because you have the possibiity to come back to chicago for rotations (i'm from chicago) and I think its more known than SGU in chicago. HOwever, SGU I think overall...or atleast used to have a really good rep since they particularly screen ppl in, however, i have a feeling Ross is starting to (or atleast will now) especially, since a lot more ppl know about the carib route nowadays.

tell me what you all think? SGU or ROSS? I know this seems to be one of those questions that dont have answer...so please, if you give an opinion please back it up with some reasons!

thanks

confused!

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=62187&messageid=1021413469&lp=1021997387

Or, this...



CONFUSED AS HELL!

[email protected]
May 14 2002, 10:47 PM
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dknykid1980 (no login)

hey there chicago and everyone else!

God Da$* I'm soo confused!

I want to go to Ross because like i said i'll be close to home. Plus i want to stay around this area cuz i know it so well. Plus i might have some hook ups later on in life in this area. However, this ACGME thing is important, but like the previous posters stated both jackson and st.anthonys are certified. However, I'm still confused because i know that if one is in teh east coast SGU is definitely the better bet, howver, over here.....i'm just not too sure. Personally, i think that most ppl are just gonna label us as Carib grads anyways, so it really doesnt matter. I think i'm gonna have to do more research then what i have done (which is a lot!).

but wow, i cant believe so many ppl are against going to Ross. I've heard good stores before, but not recently.

hmmmmmmmm...any Ross ppl want to state why they think Ross is a better bet and give some support, or are the SGU advocates more prevalent????

confused and dazed...

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=62187&messageid=1021413469&lp=1021997387

Or this...


Listen to Dr. Goodman He KNOWS!!

April 3 2002 at 3:12 AM
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Dknykid1980 (no login)


Listen up-

I've seen all the bad publicity that Ross Alum has written on this forum as well as on various other forums. Nevertheless, he does not have the balls to actually fess up his name and actual association to Ross.

Contrarily, I had contacted Dr. Gary Goodman, a 3rd year resident as well as a Ross grad over in NY. Upon reading all the BS contrived by Ross Alum I decided to email Dr. Goodman as well as call him at WORK (yes he's an actual resident and yes Ross does have success grads like him). He was a very insightful source and is someone that was both honest and very straight forward. I suggest that if anyone has any questions or hesitations about Ross one should call him up. He'll tell you everything how it is. In addition, he seemed to be a very sociable and personable person, not the stereotypical nerdlike MD.

I write this post because I hope that you all will do what I did and talk to a real Ross Alumnus.

later



P.S. Sorry Dr. Goodman if I cause a mass flock of emailers jamming your email box with questions.
Thanks for the info and yes I will be bringing coffee to her.

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=62187&messageid=1017821534&lp=1017917230

CONCLUSION: You are a wishy-washy, snippy, mock-arrogant weakling and little boy. Please do some major growing up while you are in medical school, you little pissant. You should be incredibly ashamed of what you've posted here recently in light of the above.

Now stop posting your misinformed, hypocritical bull**** for the sake of those of us who wish to sincerely put forth good, honest information on this forum. However, please feel free to continue to post the lightweight stuff, which is the content of the majority of your posts, that won't hurt or mislead anyone. You are not yet an authority on anything, certainly not Ross and the Caribbean route. Stop pretending to be one.
 
Originally posted by Skip Intro
I've been meaning to ask you this for a long time, I don't mean to offend, but are you gay? Of course, I'm not myself and I don't have a problem with anyone being gay, but from what I've heard the D.C. area is a good place for gay men to meet. I hope you haven't been disappointed.

Dude. Not cool.

- Tae
 
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Originally posted by tkim6599
Dude. Not cool.

- Tae

Tae:

I'm not sure that I (a) understand what necessitated this post, and (b) happen to care anyway. Nonetheless, if you think this was some sort of a stab at homosexuals, try re-reading the quote you again selected.

But, since you appeared to want to make an issue of this and just so we're clear, here goes.

I cannot, honestly, figure this "kid" out. One of the many impressions I have gotten while reading his posts throughout his long saga of "should I/shouldn't I" do this or do that (as well as trying to figure out why he chose his moniker) is that, among many other things, he is gay. Likewise, the "district" (where he currently attends medical school at Howard) is well-known to have a very large, vocal, open homosexual population. I used to live in the greater D.C. area, and not only is this undisputed it is also nothing to be ashamed or disgraced by. D.C. is very diverse - and diversity is good.

But, staying on track... not only has one of my speculations been that he is likely homosexual, I get a similar sense that he has a lot of frustration, angst, and possible denial about it (again, just from reading his posts going back to the long history where he was, and he will admit, at one time going to be a Ross student... and then an SGU student). Furthermore, I do hope that he will meet some people in D.C., if he is indeed gay, who will help provide him a better outlet for the frustration and pathetic "lashing-out" he demonstrates on this forum. And, I believe living in D.C. he will have a much better chance to explore such feelings than he would living in "suburbia" Illinois, as he puts it. So, that sentiment in my post was, in part, genuine.

Of course, he could actually be a "she" and not a "he" as well. But, I just get more of the sense of "gay male" when I read his posts. Either way, the "kid" is someone who apparently needs a lot of reinforcement and has very little self-confidence. And, now that he got into Howard at the last minute, I guess he feels the need, mostly in effort to convince himself, that he made the right choice and is therefore far superior to others that aren't "U.S. students". You know, it's like the drinking game @sshole: even if you're second to last on the totem pole, you still think you get to pick on the person sitting in the @sshole chair. What he fails to realize is that first and foremost this is not a competition, and equally importantly I am not sitting in the "@sshole chair" like he thinks I am. (I always hated that game, personally.)

Therefore, I'm not going to apologize for offering my impressions, nor will I apologize for asking the question.

Happy Holidays.

-Skip

P.S. Just my opinion and nothing more, but personally I would have chosen Ross or SGU over Howard anyway (and a few others in the U.S. as well). But, that's just me.
 
Not me. I would be choose Howard over SGU. Its in the U.S. and it has a long proud tradition of educating African American physicians for service in their communities.

You can talk all you want about admissions statistics but you can't convince me that there is any difference between a B+ student and a B student. Other factors are much more important.
 
Originally posted by Skip Intro
Tae:

I'm not sure that I (a) understand what necessitated this post, and (b) happen to care anyway. Nonetheless, if you think this was some sort of a stab at homosexuals, try re-reading the quote you again selected.

But, since you appeared to want to make an issue of this and just so we're clear, here goes.

[...stuff deleted...]


I don't think you were taking a stab at homosexuals, per se, but definitely making an attack on the poster.

However, since you seem to hold the poster in such low regard, asking if said poster was part of a specific group of people with a sexual orientation, by extension, casts that group in a negative light.

Of course, how serious can the posed question of sexual orientation be, if all you've got to go on is the poster writing 'tootles' as a sign of his/her sexual preference ... :rolleyes:

- Tae
 
Originally posted by tkim6599
I don't think you were taking a stab at homosexuals, per se, but definitely making an attack on the poster.

However, since you seem to hold the poster in such low regard, asking if said poster was part of a specific group of people with a sexual orientation, by extension, casts that group in a negative light.

Of course, how serious can the posed question of sexual orientation be, if all you've got to go on is the poster writing 'tootles' as a sign of his/her sexual preference ... :rolleyes:

- Tae

Did you read (and/or understand) my explanation for asking the question?

:confused:

And...

I don't think you were taking a stab at homosexuals, per se...

...by extension, casts that group in a negative light.

First, you are trying to have it both ways, and this has nothing to homosexuals as a group. Secondly, yes - I think he's a frustrated, closet gay man with a lot of issues, namely an huge amount of insecurity with a massive inferiorty complex - and this manifests itself in his posts. I have nothing at all against homosexuals. You need to go back and re-read. In fact, I hope the "kid" comes out of the closet and confronts his feelings (if my speculations are correct and as I suggested in the original post) so that he can confront certain things about himself that he is "acting out" on this (and other) forums, and then doesn't feel the need to displace and misplace his anger, frustration, and massive complex as he apparently has done towards some people on this forum. This impression is not based on this one incident, Tae. His entire postings reek of repression. That is why I asked the question. I fully admit that this is speculation, and that I personally don't know him and could be completely wrong. But, I do have a strong hunch.

Enough said.

-Skip
 
Originally posted by Skip Intro
Did you read (and/or understand) my explanation for asking the question?

:confused:

Yes, I did read it. I found *nothing* in the poster's words to indicate that it was written by a repressed, frustrated, closeted homosexual.

And...

First, you are trying to have it both ways, and this has nothing to homosexuals as a group. Secondly, yes - I think he's a frustrated, closet gay man with a lot of issues, namely an huge amount of insecurity with a massive inferiorty complex - and this manifests itself in his posts. I have nothing at all against homosexuals.

And yet you attribute his negative actions as stemming from repressed homosexuality? Come on ...

You need to go back and re-read. In fact, I hope the "kid" comes out of the closet and confronts his feelings (if my speculations are correct and as I suggested in the original post) so that he can confront certain things about himself that he is "acting out" on this (and other) forums, and then doesn't feel the need to displace and misplace his anger, frustration, and massive complex as he apparently has done towards some people on this forum. This impression is not based on this one incident, Tae. His entire postings reek of repression. That is why I asked the question. I fully admit that this is speculation, and that I personally don't know him and could be completely wrong. But, I do have a strong hunch. Enough said.

Unless you are willing to admit that through personal experience, i.e., that you were a repressed, frustrated, closeted homosexual who only felt better after 'coming out', and this is why you think this is the case here, you need to take a step back and realize that your entire argument is sketchy as hell.

I'll say it once again for the cheap seats in back: there is *nothing* I've read here that even *hints* towards homosexuality as the reason why dknykid1980 posts in the manner he/she posts.

To attribute such posting behavior as the result of repressed homosexuality is *ridiculous*.

- Tae
 
Originally posted by tkim6599
Yes, I did read it. I found *nothing* in the poster's words to indicate that it was written by a repressed, frustrated, closeted homosexual.

So, did you miss the part where I told you that this is a pattern, and that I'm not basing this on this single post?

Originally posted by tkim6599
And yet you attribute his negative actions as stemming from repressed homosexuality? Come on ...

No, I attribute his entire modus operandi to a wishy-washy, lashing-out, misplaced, repressive, unsure-of-himself history on this and other forums to some sort of repressed anger and frustration. Yes, I have known at least one closeted homosexual in the past who, once he "came out", was a much different, more self-assured, and happier person with who he was and what he was "all about". Prior to that time (when I knew him and worked for him), he was a bitter, insecure, unsure individual who often manifested his behavior in very similar ways as the "kid". Why do you think the bell finally went off in my head? Why do you think I ASKED the QUESTION? I fully admit that I could be wrong. Is that such a hard concept for you to grasp?

Originally posted by tkim6599
Unless you are willing to admit that through personal experience, i.e., that you were a repressed, frustrated, closeted homosexual who only felt better after 'coming out', and this is why you think this is the case here, you need to take a step back and realize that your entire argument is sketchy as hell.

This is just an asinine position you're taking. Does an oncologist have to have cancer to understand what a tumor will do to the body? Please, you can do better, Tae.

Originally posted by tkim6599
I'll say it once again for the cheap seats in back: there is *nothing* I've read here that even *hints* towards homosexuality as the reason why dknykid1980 posts in the manner he/she posts.

And, I assure you that, unless your "history" with the "kid" (including PM's to yours truly) goes back as far as mine does, you cannot possibly get the same impression that I have - especially if you are basing it on this one post. Again, go back and read what I originally wrote: "I've been meaning to ask you this for some time...

Originally posted by tkim6599
To attribute such posting behavior as the result of repressed homosexuality is *ridiculous*.

I think you're middle-of-the-movie conclusions and assertions that I've taken a position against homosexuals by my original question, without understanding the full history of this poster including previous interactions I've had with him on this and other forums, are equally ridiculous and, better yet, an argument from ignorance.

Now, really, that is enough said.
 
Skip,

If you were truly interested in asking dknykid1980 a real question about his/her sexual orientation - especially if you believe them to be confused or repressing their preferred sexual orientation, then perhaps asking about it in a public forum, during a flame fest, will not yield the answers you seek. Nor would it appear to be a serious question, under those circumstances.

Perhaps, if you were truly interested in asking a serious question, you would perhaps ask it in a more discreet manner - maybe a PM?

Posing the question of homosexuality, then following up with the remark that the DC area holds an active homosexual population and the hope that he/she 'hasn't been disappointed' really doesn't sound like a serious question.

It sounds like an attack.

It does not matter whether or not I've read all of this person's posts - as you seem to have. Even your proferred thumbnail sketch of this person says nothing to homosexuality - just insecurity. Lots of insecure straight people all over the place.

- Tae

- Tae
 
Hey there Skip

seems like your attempt at character assasination back fired, ah poor baby dont cry now. For your information I am not homosexual nor a 'closet' one for that matter. LOL...it seems at the older and presumably more 'mature' age you are quite insecure with yourself, thus having to resort to such measures as character defaming.

The funny part is how you characterize DC as a 'gay' area. how dare you make assertions about cities in the US you US rejected, insecure, homophobic, old grumpy man. It's pretty hilarious. It's pretty scary how you are going to be a future physician and be critical of a population (gay) that will comprise a great portion of society. See obviously your immaturity and ignorance is what witheld you from attending a US medical school (not to mention by extension your intelligence). Quite honestly i find it rather futile to stoop to your level and defend myself but heck why not.

Next, i find it how funny a supposed 'medical' student has so much spare time on his hands. I'm only an M1 and i got soo much to study that i barely even come on here, yet somehow you have soo much spare time. Obviously indicative of how you spend your time and by extension why you are going to be a graduate of a subpar caribbean school.

Next as for the other posts, where the heck are you pulling these out of. I mean the funniest part is that you went to the website and pulled these out (looks like you spent a lot of time doing that yet, normal med students dont have the time to divulge into soo much information). Gosh what a joke caribbean medical schools were. I mean if it were this easy to get two initials after my name maybe i would do it too....NOT!

You know the reason why caribbean med schools have such a bad rep is because incompetent, ignorant, and socially paralyzed individuals like you represent them. I think it's quite funny that someone of your age and supposed education stoops to such level even to prove a 'point'. LOL. I'd expect the same out of a thirteen year old, but then again there isnt much difference between his/her's and a caribbean grads right???


Well nice try attacking. Looks like it backfired. Oh by the way all those posts you used as 'proof' do you realize that i didnt write them? do you understand how EASY it is to just put someone elses name on the AUTHOR section and say that that person was responsible for it. For all i know YOU (because you are such a low life) would put my name on those posts as the author.

Well i know this will post will incite some flaming from you, so bring it on, let the viewers beware though.

Tootles (i use that because I know you feel insecure by the why)

me.


P.S. I've really got nothing repressed. I'm generally really good about unleashing everythign so i dont find the need to bottle stuff up. Unlike you bud. I understand that it must be real embarassing to be a carib grad and have to tell ppl. You made the decision bud, so live with it.
 
DAPLAYA:

This website is a testament to the overwhelming support that Osteopathic Med. receives in the United States. Granted that the pre-medical community remains belligerent and misinformed on several issues; but Osteo. colleges continue to thrive and gather increasingly positive recognition from M.D. Residency programs, and major Allo. organizations. There are qualified applicants voluntarily choosing state D.O. schools over M.D. schools based on secondary factors after noticing that either school would offer accredited, respectable med. education.

The Caribbean graduates that I've encountered have shared information about their schools that illustrate discouraging issues: I've been told that the coursework is basic and general--likened to a long board-exam review curriculum; there are problems in scheduling required clerkships during the senior years for Caribbean students, i.e., some students necessarily have to stretch 2 years of clerkships into 3 due to lack of available hospital positions when required. The U.S. initiative to continue to limit the number of foreign med. graduates entering american residency programs is a further barrier--not to mention the bias that residency directors regard offshore graduates as less-qualified applicants.

Good luck to you. By the way: this thread has grown to be one of the most disappointing and derogatory threads that I've browsed on this network. Moderator, please do your job.
 
Originally posted by dknykid1980
Hey there Skip

seems like your attempt at character assasination back fired, ah poor baby dont cry now. For your information I am not homosexual nor a 'closet' one for that matter. LOL...it seems at the older and presumably more 'mature' age you are quite insecure with yourself, thus having to resort to such measures as character defaming.

Hey dkny1980.

Just for the record, I think Skip's description of you as a whiny, frustrated pissant is right on the mark. My personal opinion of you is that you are a total tool.

However, I don't come to the same conclusion as Skip - that your negative behavior stems from repressed homosexuality.

I think you're just an immature jerk - reasons why be damned.

Just so we're clear on this.

- Tae

P.S. And for Skip to have posted under your name to that other site, he would have had to plan this little flame fest back in May - 7 months ago, when those posts went up. Let's be a little honest here, those were your posts.
 
LOL

Well call me what you want but i speak the truth. those posts were not all mine. I did make a post ONCE, during my undergrad years about how carib med schools maybe better than DO. HOWEVER, throughout the years and through my new experiences I've found i was mistaken and that in deed DO is better and more highly looked at.

ALSO..just to let you know my feud with skip stems back to May or so he could have posted all that.

aight


peace
 
i'm actually just posting this so i can stop getting the email reminders on such a pointless, stupid thread!:)
 
Originally posted by dknykid1980
Oh by the way all those posts you used as 'proof' do you realize that i didnt write them? do you understand how EASY it is to just put someone elses name on the AUTHOR section and say that that person was responsible for it. For all i know YOU (because you are such a low life) would put my name on those posts as the author.


Originally posted by dknykid1980
LOL

Well call me what you want but i speak the truth. those posts were not all mine. I did make a post ONCE, during my undergrad years about how carib med schools maybe better than DO. HOWEVER, throughout the years and through my new experiences I've found i was mistaken and that in deed DO is better and more highly looked at.

ALSO..just to let you know my feud with skip stems back to May or so he could have posted all that.

aight

Not only do you demonstrate that you have next to zero reading comprehension skills, you are also a liar and you know it. I still stand by my speculation* despite what you say, "Donna Karan New York 'kid' 1980". I hope you find a nice guy up there in D.C. to help you sort out your repressed, frustrated, now-closeted lifestyle.

By the way, I'm on break, numbnuts.

-Skip

*It's speculation, not an assertion and certainly not a conclusion, but I think the "kid" knows I'm right, even though he will never admit it here.
 
Originally posted by [email protected]
DAPLAYA:

This website is a testament to the overwhelming support that Osteopathic Med. receives in the United States.

Yes it is. And, I think that that's wonderful. Too many insecure people, such as the "kid", fail to realize that we are not in competition with one another - we are all working towards the same goal: namely to help patients. Whatever path brings us there is fine, as long as it is done with competence and compassion.

Originally posted by [email protected]
Granted that the pre-medical community remains belligerent and misinformed on several issues; but Osteo. colleges continue to thrive and gather increasingly positive recognition from M.D. Residency programs, and major Allo. organizations. There are qualified applicants voluntarily choosing state D.O. schools over M.D. schools based on secondary factors after noticing that either school would offer accredited, respectable med. education.

I partially disagree. I think that many, but not all, pre-med students and supposed "advisors" just don't have all the facts on Osteopathy. But, the real issue and bigger part of the problem is the AMA disallowing additional allopathic schools to be opened in the U.S. It's not that Osteopaths are inferior (or necessarily cast in that light), it has to do with specializing and subspecializing - it is assumed and indeed almost implied that Osteopaths and Carib grads will go into primary care positions, where there is an incredible shortage of physicians across the board. However, historically IMGs have specialized at the same rate as other U.S. trained physicians. And, now that the Osteopath and Allopath specialty boards are merging, many more Osteopaths are choosing to continue on and sub-specialize following their residencies. The "corrective measures" the AMA is attempting are not working, per se, and despite supposed cuts in the number of foreign residency positions in the U.S. that have been planned, they were actually up 531% by the end of the 1990's.

I agree with the sentiment, though, that the bulk of the bad information (although it's not as much as it used to be) concerning D.O. (and Carib grads, for that matter) occurs by "know-it-all" (who really know very little) people such as the "kid" on forums like these. Often, when working side-by-side with IMGs from the Caribbean and D.O.s, I think a lot of USMGs are humbled and surprised when their non-U.S. trained counterparts know as much and are as well-trained as they have been to that point. Some are better, some are worse, clearly. But, that's true for everyone, even a student who goes to, say, Howard and excels when working with a Hopkins grad who might have just scraped by. (In my direct experience, it was working with a Tampico, MX grad along side a Georgetown and University of Georgia grads. The "IMG" was excellent. I wouldn't take my gerbil to either of the other two)

Originally posted by [email protected]
The Caribbean graduates that I've encountered have shared information about their schools that illustrate discouraging issues:

Okay, let's examine them one by one...

Originally posted by [email protected]
I've been told that the coursework is basic and general--likened to a long board-exam review curriculum;

Not true, at least in my case. During my past semester, we were taught and tested on conducting a complete physical exam. This represented a large portion of our final grade for the course. Likewise, we studied and were also tested on, during a course, reading and interpreting 12-lead ECGs. Furthermore, I found our Pharmacology course questions as part of the curriculum to be far more difficult and comprehensive than the "shelf" exam.

Originally posted by [email protected]
there are problems in scheduling required clerkships during the senior years for Caribbean students,

This may be true to an extent, but at least with Ross (which has the most U.S. affiliations of any Carib school) this problem has all but been resolved. Likewise, we are allowed to do visiting clerkships at U.S. medical schools during fourth year. The course grade issued by the school transfers back to Ross. Many students opt for this during electives.

Additionally, there are no breaks during the clerkship years. Once a clerkship is completed, you move to the next one. This occurs year round (i.e., there is no summer or mid-semester break). This schedule allows one flexibility to, for example, utilize a self-scheduled, six-week break to study for and take Step II.

Originally posted by [email protected]
i.e., some students necessarily have to stretch 2 years of clerkships into 3 due to lack of available hospital positions when required.

Again, this may happen, but some students who start in the December class and go straight through can actually make the match and graduate in three-and-a-half years. This happens frequently.

Originally posted by [email protected]
The U.S. initiative to continue to limit the number of foreign med. graduates entering american residency programs is a further barrier--not to mention the bias that residency directors regard offshore graduates as less-qualified applicants.

As stated above, the data just does not corroborate this. Nonetheless, if such a plan is ultimately instituted, it will affect foreign, non-citizen physicians first who cannot get a J-1 visa. The last group of people affected will be U.S. citizen foreign graduates, provided (of course) that they still can pass their licensure exams. And, with the continued forecasted physician shortages in the U.S. over the next twenty years, I seriously doubt that this will happen. Why do you think the AMA has tolerated allowing the M.D. and D.O. boards to merge as well as opening 5 or so new Osteopathy schools in the last eight years? Again, the push is to get physicians into primary care. It is almost expected of the graduating D.O.'s and IMG M.D.'s that they will go that route in their training.

As far as the perception of offshore grads being "less-qualified", I think this has more to do with PD's choosing students from U.S. schools because the U.S. students are less willing to go to a program that has IMGs due to their own perception biases. They perceive their potential IMG counterparts to be less-qualified, and not necessarily the PD's themselves who feel this way... and the requisite feeling, either consciously or subconsciously, that doing a residency alongside of IMGs will negatively reflect on them. How sad. That's why I continuously ask people to check their sources and really reflect on why they feel a certain way about an issue: is it because it's been what they've been told and haven't questioned it, or is it because it is actually based on fact? More often than not it's the former as opposed to the latter.

Originally posted by [email protected]
Good luck to you. By the way: this thread has grown to be one of the most disappointing and derogatory threads that I've browsed on this network. Moderator, please do your job.

If that is directed to me, thank you. But, it has less to do with luck and more to do with hard work and willingess to tolerate the hatred, bias, misunderstanding, and epithets of such people as the "kid". I know I will succeed; there's no doubt in my mind.

(P.S. I can link data to support all of the above assertions, if necessary.)
 
Skip and "Kid",

I am 40 years old so I feel like I can get away with saying this to both of you...........

Get that chip off your shoulders and start acting like adults!!!! You are both behaving like five-year olds.

Kid, you had an obvious interest in SGU and Ross before you got accepted into the US. ( Yes, I have read your past posts). You were a last minute, lucky as hell acceptance. You could have EASILY been sitting where Skip is right now. Stop acting like you are soooo much better then him or others that have taken his path.

Skip.....you are going to be a doctor. That is all that matters. Stop being so defensive. Stop the flaming, name-calling and immaturity and you might even become a good doctor.

Marley
 
Originally posted by marleybfour
Skip.....you are going to be a doctor. That is all that matters. Stop being so defensive. Stop the flaming, name-calling and immaturity and you might even become a good doctor.

Well, ignoring the "might even become a good doctor" ad hominem and inherent 'holier-than-thou' sentiment, I know I will become a good doctor, thank you. BTW, I'm 34.

And, apparently the lesson I was trying to teach "the kid" (before Tae interrupted) was, once again, missed by everyone. Guess subtlety is always missed when there's a lot of noise. But, it doesn't feel good to be speculated about and labeled for no good reason, does it?
 
Sorry Skip, I assumed from reading several of your posts that you were young enough to be my son. Oh well, you know what happens when one assumes something. My apologies.
 
hey there skippy

what are you going to now say something about that. honestly i have a feeling you yourself are a closet homosexual why else would you be making such completely irrelated conclusions??? I understand that you are a carib grad but surely you could come up with a better comeback instead of resorting to such attempts at character assasination.

Whatever, for a 34 year old you have hte maturity of a 10 yr old.


As far as that long post you wrote.. First off the REASON why the AMA just doesnt want to open up 1000 med schools is so that the profession will remain a profession and not a joke. That is why its regulated so that the qualified individuals are chosen, unlike carib grads where anyone with a pulse is chosen! and dont try denying it. Studies done has shown that even SGU which proclaimed the best USMLE past rates for you foreigners dropped its passing rate of 86% from its former 92%. The quality of carib grads is slowly but surely dwindling. Dont even try denying this. sure ross now requires a MCAT score but its a joke. They dont even look at your MCAT score for admissions purposes! they only ask for mCAT scores for stat purposes! A friend of mine (and no SKIPPY i know your narrow, incompetent mind will incinuate something , but dont worry he's straight too...i know you feel jealous dont you) applied to ROSS this past month. THe biggest joke ever. THEY CONDUCTED HIS INTERVIEW ON THE PHONE!! i mean come on is that a joke or what. Dont even try denying this. AND my experience at ROSS's interview was even more funnY! The freaking lady didnt even ask me ANY q's she just ranted on about her school, trying to sell it to me.

Dude get off it. You know the order. US med, US OSTEO, CANADIAN, other foreign countries, FINALLY and lastly the carib losers.


I understand that you are really frustrated etc. HOWEVER, you had the choice of waiting it out to go to a US school. You chose to go elsewhere, get ready to get bashed, its gonna happen down the line for you bud. So dont get soo offensive and just take it. dont cry, i'll have a tissure handy for yah.

aight cry baby have a good one.
 
Wow.

I just spent the last 15 minutes reading this thread and was shocked at the personal bashing of each other. What are you gaining from this act? Oh wait, I'll answer this:Absolutely nothing

I have been a member of this forum for a while and its purpose is to help people by answering questions in regards to medical school, undergrad and other pertinant topics. Personal slams against one another is not included. I understand that this topic has gotten pretty far off the original question, which I believe it should turned back to or be locked. We are all aspiring physicians and we should be here to help one another, not mock of offend each other.

In response to the original question: It is a personal decision. Some people look at the DO degree as a way to become a physician and others want to become a DO because of its philosophy. Do you want to live in the carribean for four years? Do you want to stay in the US? This is not a question we can answer for you. For the DO bashers out there, please keep it to yourself. It is unvalidated and unwarranted.

Hopefully we can get this message board on the right track again. :(
 
Hey all,

This is my first time in the Pre-Osteopathic forum. I was just curious to check it out. I agree with Forensic Chick that the bashing here doesn't help the OP.

I've been wondering what is the DO philosophy and how is it different from the MD philosophy? I can't seem to find anything substantial on the internet to answer this question. I just find stuff like the DO education focuses on the whole person blah blah blah. No offense, but I think that the MD education does this too. The main difference I see is that DOs learn manipulation and I am unfamiliar with its scientific basis.

Finally, to the OP:

I break it down like this (below) and I think so do most people. While there are those occasional people who choose to go DO over MD, I truly think they are in the minority. Although it may be inaccurate, my general impression is that DO schools are easier to get into (in terms of avg scores) than MD schools.

The priority breakdown for the usual applicant
1. US and Canadian Medical Schools (MD)
2. US Osteopathic Schools
2. Carribean School with the option to graduate at a US medical school. (I had an acquaintance who went to Ross, but graduated at NY Medical College.)
4. International Medical Schools (Carribean and Other countries)

Originally posted by Forensic Chick
Wow.

I just spent the last 15 minutes reading this thread and was shocked at the personal bashing of each other. What are you gaining from this act? Oh wait, I'll answer this:Absolutely nothing

I have been a member of this forum for a while and its purpose is to help people by answering questions in regards to medical school, undergrad and other pertinant topics. Personal slams against one another is not included. I understand that this topic has gotten pretty far off the original question, which I believe it should turned back to or be locked. We are all aspiring physicians and we should be here to help one another, not mock of offend each other.

In response to the original question: It is a personal decision. Some people look at the DO degree as a way to become a physician and others want to become a DO because of its philosophy. Do you want to live in the carribean for four years? Do you want to stay in the US? This is not a question we can answer for you. For the DO bashers out there, please keep it to yourself. It is unvalidated and unwarranted.

Hopefully we can get this message board on the right track again. :(
 
chloe- while the avg do school does have avg gpa/mcat lower than the avg md program there are other factors involved in the process such as life experience, prior medical experience,ability to communicate well with others, etc
I know of 22 year old 4.0 gpa/35+ mcat folks with bio degrees from respectable schools who have gotten into every md program they applied to and no do programs because of their lack of these other features. there really is more to human beings than just these 2 numbers and do schools recognize this and accept large numbers of older/nontraditional applicants. my scores are good enough to get into most middle tier md programs and I am applying only do. I have several degrees and >10 yrs of experience in the medical field plus lots of community service and ec's. do is not my second choice and it is not for many others as well.
 
emedpa-
I respect your point of view. I would argue that MD admissions places a good deal of emphasis on the factors you have mentioned...life experience, communication skills etc. MD schools do not only focus on numbers as there are other parts to the application process including ECs, LORs, personal statement and interview. I suspect that if a person were completely lacking in the factors you mentioned, he/she would not be admitted to an MD school. And yes, there are those people with high scores and GPA who do not get into a single medical (MD) school for these reasons. Are you trying to tell me that MD schools ignore these other factors and that DO schools are the only ones to recognize these things and consider non-traditional students seriously?

It would be interesting to know specifically why are you choosing to apply only DO.
c

Originally posted by emedpa
chloe- while the avg do school does have avg gpa/mcat lower than the avg md program there are other factors involved in the process such as life experience, prior medical experience,ability to communicate well with others, etc
I know of 22 year old 4.0 gpa/35+ mcat folks with bio degrees from respectable schools who have gotten into every md program they applied to and no do programs because of their lack of these other features. there really is more to human beings than just these 2 numbers and do schools recognize this and accept large numbers of older/nontraditional applicants. my scores are good enough to get into most middle tier md programs and I am applying only do. I have several degrees and >10 yrs of experience in the medical field plus lots of community service and ec's. do is not my second choice and it is not for many others as well.
 
as an older applicant I prefer to be surrounded by individuals who are closer to my age and have done things with their lives other than study. I have no interest in "required research" (which is important at many md programs)and do not want to waste any time doing it, although I can respect those that do. I am interested in omm and have seen it work numerous times while working with do's(one of whom is the chief of EM where I work).I have yet to meet a do I didn't like(and I have worked with many)while I have apparently met every md surgeon/specialist from hell during my time in medicine. do's who are there because they want to be do's not because they didn't get into md programs are a fairly relaxed group of folks as opposed to most md students I know(did I mention I teach at an md fp residency program as part of my job?). basically I would rather have dinner or relate in most social situations with these folks than the avg md out there, although I recognize that not all md's are gunners, more than a few is too many.yes there are md programs that pride themselves on seeking out the well rounded individuals(stanford and creighton come to mind) and there are numbers based do programs(umdnj), but on the avg, do programs care more about the potential and less about the raw scores.
 
Like emedpa, I am an older applicant too. I spent 4 years in the military. Also, my life has been very 'convoluted'. ( A nice way of saying I was never a straight-arrow whiz kid through school) I'm going DO b/c of people like emedpa - older, more mature, and focused on practicing medicine, not research. I have no problems with research oriented people, but its just not up my alley.

I relate with people like emedpa much better. I feel at home with the people who espouse Osteopathy and its principles. D.O. schools are not a fallback for me - they are where I want to be.
 
Originally posted by chloe5

I break it down like this (below) and I think so do most people. While there are those occasional people who choose to go DO over MD, I truly think they are in the minority. Although it may be inaccurate, my general impression is that DO schools are easier to get into (in terms of avg scores) than MD schools.

That depends on which MD schools stats you are talking about. A cursory check of the MSAR and DO stats reveals that several DO schools student stats are above many MD schools.

About being "easier to get into".... How many allo- applicants apply to lower tier MD schools because they are "easier to get into"? Does this mean these MD schools are poorer at preparing students to practice? If we are talking about schools per se, let's talk about board pass rates, and not so much about the numbers of the students there. I just fail to see how student stats tell us much about a school, especially when these students all end up using the same pathology, anatomy texts, etc.

In any case, anytime people examine MD/DO schools together, it's usually based on a lot of assumptions about both types of schools. Because of the huge variability of admissions factors between just allo- or osteo- schools, it's difficult enough to compare between one type of school, much less the other.

I also think you'd be surprised at how many applicants intend to go MD, and then learn about osteopathy, and go that route. My stats are definately good enough for most MD schools, but I had a couple of friends at an osteopathic school who kept telling me to check it out. I was skeptical at first (especially about OMM), but the more I learned the more positive my opinion about osteopathy became.

I do agree awith you about manipulation. I'm convinced it works in many cases, but I feel that more research needs to be done. That doesn't exactly mean to say that I feel manipulation isn't validated, I simply feel that more research will help DOs (and MDs that pursue OMM) be more effective at treating patients. That will hopefully come as DO schools tap into state support and get more hospital affiliations.

In the end, I hope I'm not sounding too defensive about osteopathy. I really feel that too many DO students get a chip on their shoulder about it being DOs. Being a good doctor educating our colleagues will be much more helpful that useless (and baseless) MD bashing.
 
This is what i think of DO's.

Initially, my stance of DO's was a little skewed because a residency director that i followed around labelled them as 'fake docs'. Whatever i said to myself.

So i then decided to shadow a DO myself, because I actually thought of it as a viable option. I shadowed him and he did everything EXACTLY like a normal MD. In fact on that particular day he did no OMM and rather just prescribed meds like MDs. SO i went up to him afterwards and waslike so whats the deal you do everything an MD does. (granted he had to go next door and ask the MD if what he was prescribing was correct, clarified the dosage, some small things..but all else was the same). This is what he told me. He goes OMM is great but its a tad old fashioned. He's like what I think of Osteopathic Med is that its just another tool that you are equipped with to treat a patient. He conceded that for the most part he prescribes meds and does the normal stuff an MD does. BUT on certain patients who prefer OMM and in some rare instances he chooses OMM.

Bottom line. DOs are very very similar to MDs. But the reason I decided to post here was because I truly feel if you dont get into a US Allo school (or chose not to) then DO is the route to take....NOT the caribbean. Getting into a DO school is certainly more competitive then a open ended admission policied carib school.

So if you are on this thread deciding between the two...take it from me and whoever else here that's a US student...BE AMERICAN GO THE AMERICAN ROUTE!:clap: :clap:

peace
 
Originally posted by Forensic Chick
Do you want to live in the carribean for four years?

Point of note: the implied message in this rhetorical question is simply false.

At Ross, you spend only 16 months in the Caribbean, if you fast-track and successfully pass all your course keeping your GPA above 2.90 (as I have done; although, a large portion of the students [about half of any given class on average] "decelerate" to spend more time on Dominica learning and reviewing the basic sciences material). Following your stint on Dominica, you come back to the U.S. afterwards, do a "fifth semester" at the end of MS2 in Miami, take Step I, and then the rest of your training is in U.S. hospitals and clinics, in many instances side-by-side with U.S. medical students.

At SGU, you take the second semester of your second year at a teaching hospital on St. Vincent's, a neighboring island in the Caribbean near Grenada. Some students also "decelerate" to a slower track. Following completion of that, students come back to the U.S. and sit for Step I and then are either back in the U.S. full-time (and, from what I understand that's the majority), or off to England to do part of their clinical clerkship years.

What's important (and although it probably was not your intent) is that your question illustrates one of the fundamental misconceptions about the Caribbean that's out there, at least concerning the more reputable schools with track records of high Step I pass rates and placing their students in U.S. residencies at nearly the same rate as U.S. schools. The fact is that Ross and SGU are predominately U.S.-based programs with over 20-year track records of educating and placing doctors in the U.S. No, they are not LCME certified and graduates are technically "foreign", but graduates have to meet all of the same - and currently even more rigorous - licensure requirements as U.S. doctors. So, who cares ultimately?

Originally posted by Forensic Chick
Hopefully we can get this message board on the right track again. :(

I agree. And, my apologies to everyone who's had to suffer through through the mudslinging. However, I can only hope that anyone who's also read this thread in its entirety can (as easily as myself) see who has truly been the fabricator, the misconstruer, the hypocrite, and the outright infant in these exchanges. I was trying to demonstrate to the "kid" how it feels to be labeled for no good reason. Obviously (and again through all the noise), the point was missed. Although, I'll admit that I've enjoyed watching him repeatedly stick his foot in his mouth and make an ass of himself over the past 8 months or so. It's been quite entertaining. I'm sure that we're in for a lot more... :D

-Skip Intro
MS2 Ross University
Starting "Fifth Semester" 1/03
Miami, Florida
 
Originally posted by dknykid1980
BE AMERICAN GO THE AMERICAN ROUTE!:clap: :clap:

I'm not even going to try to decipher what ignorant, pseudo-elitist, mock-arrogant, and completely idiotic impulse commanded you to type that, nor what you could've possibly meant by saying that. But, I, hopefully along with everyone else reading it, take incredible umbrage at the fact that you are, by default, calling me un-American.

You truly are a completely clueless @sshole and a total disgrace not only to the 25% of ALL practicing physicians in the U.S. (totalling about 200,000 doctors currently) who are foreign-trained, but a complete disgrace to the medical profession in its entirety.

I highly suggest that grow-up, you tool.
 
Originally posted by Skip Intro
At Ross, you spend only 16 months in the Caribbean,

Nothing wrong with 4 years in the Caribbean in my book. :)
 
Originally posted by dknykid1980
granted he had to go next door and ask the MD if what he was prescribing was correct, clarified the dosage, some small things..but all else was the same

Sorry to burst your bubble, but virtually all docs consult with thier collegues in circumstances like this. At least, it's been like that in every situation I've seen where physicians work closely together. BTW, they were all MDs.

In any case, isn't being a good doc partly built on knowing precisely what you don't know? Having the humility to ask for help is nothing to be ashamed of.
 
Skip Intro,

You sound awfully defensive for someone who is pleased with your decision. The comment made may not have been PC, but it is valid nonetheless. Granted, there are indeed many American physicians who are foreign trained. Some are trained well, others are not. But I would hazard to guess that given the opportunity, many, if not most, would have opted to train in this nation. The facts are simple so let me spell them out. I say this from the perspective of one who is no longer in the classroom but actually in the hospital and soon graduating. Americans who train overseas GENERALLY do so for a reason, and that reason is not because the foreign nation is their top choice. I am not condemning people for making decisions, but I do take offense at people trying to suggest that a backup decision such as training overseas can match the training of an American institution. Deep down I would bet that you know this to be true. I do not know your personal reasons for going overseas, but I would guess (purely guess) that given the opportunity you would have trained here.

Before you attack someone for stating an opinion and showing your own level of immaturity, take a long look in the mirror. You have made decisions for whatever reasons. It is not appropriate to lash out at those who state something that deep down you probably know to be true, and who are making decisions appropriate for their own circumstances.

Unfortunately, there is a strong sense of bashing and inapproprite comments flung around in this forum. I simply wish that those who post do so with respect to their opinion but without giving the profession a diminished image.
 
San_Juan_Sun,

Please keep in mind that my statement that Osteo schools have lower scores/gpa has nothing to do with saying that these schools provide poorer preparation to their students. I made no comment about the quality of DO programs and hope that you do not read that in to my comment.

The bottom line is that DOs have the same privelages as MDs once out and trained. And they have to pass through rigorous exams and training just the same. However, I will be honest and say that most of the people I know who are in DO school did not get accepted to MD schools and had sub-30 MCAT scores. To me, the DO track seems to be a good option for people who are in that position and have great life experiences, but who will have a harder time making the first cut in MD programs. But as I said before, there are those people who say they prefer "the DO philosophy" etc and choose only to apply DO for whatever reason.

I don't believe in MD or DO bashing. Further, I believe that people should not make career decisions based on whether or not they like DOs or MDs that they have met, since they are only individuals in the field and the world is a big place. I haven't read any viable reason here to maintain animosity towards one type of training or another.
Best,
Chloe

Originally posted by San_Juan_Sun
That depends on which MD schools stats you are talking about. A cursory check of the MSAR and DO stats reveals that several DO schools student stats are above many MD schools.

About being "easier to get into".... How many allo- applicants apply to lower tier MD schools because they are "easier to get into"? Does this mean these MD schools are poorer at preparing students to practice? If we are talking about schools per se, let's talk about board pass rates, and not so much about the numbers of the students there. I just fail to see how student stats tell us much about a school, especially when these students all end up using the same pathology, anatomy texts, etc.

In any case, anytime people examine MD/DO schools together, it's usually based on a lot of assumptions about both types of schools. Because of the huge variability of admissions factors between just allo- or osteo- schools, it's difficult enough to compare between one type of school, much less the other.

I also think you'd be surprised at how many applicants intend to go MD, and then learn about osteopathy, and go that route. My stats are definately good enough for most MD schools, but I had a couple of friends at an osteopathic school who kept telling me to check it out. I was skeptical at first (especially about OMM), but the more I learned the more positive my opinion about osteopathy became.

I do agree awith you about manipulation. I'm convinced it works in many cases, but I feel that more research needs to be done. That doesn't exactly mean to say that I feel manipulation isn't validated, I simply feel that more research will help DOs (and MDs that pursue OMM) be more effective at treating patients. That will hopefully come as DO schools tap into state support and get more hospital affiliations.

In the end, I hope I'm not sounding too defensive about osteopathy. I really feel that too many DO students get a chip on their shoulder about it being DOs. Being a good doctor educating our colleagues will be much more helpful that useless (and baseless) MD bashing.
 
Originally posted by jimdo
Skip Intro,

You sound awfully defensive for someone who is pleased with your decision.

Whoever said I was "pleased with [my] decision"? This is and always has been a means to an end. If you really knew me on this forum and read any of my other posts, you'd know that that is and has always been the case and that I've been consistent since day-1. I think it is FAR more important that one prove themselves on the Steps and on the wards than during some preliminary portion of their lifelong education. Or, are you under the false impression, like many others, that medical training stops once you get your diploma?

Originally posted by jimdo
The comment made may not have been PC, but it is *valid* nonetheless.

I don't think it is. Defend your position.

Originally posted by jimdo
Granted, there are indeed many American physicians who are foreign trained.

Don't confuse "foreign trained" where people do their entire degree and post-graduate training at a foreign school and in foreign hospitals with receiving the pre-clinical portion of your undergraduate medical education, which taught by U.S., Canadian, and British instructors in a U.S. based paradigm, and completing your clerkships in U.S. hospitals.

Originally posted by jimdo
Some are trained well, others are not.

Equally true for U.S. students. It is really up to the individual, isn't it?

Originally posted by jimdo
But I would hazard to guess that given the opportunity, many, if not most, would have opted to train in this nation.

Well, I would generally agree with you if we were talking about U.S. citizens who were forced to go abroad because there weren't enough allopathic schools open. But, I think there are a lot of others who would object to your characterization, many of whom are probably teaching you at your school right now.

Originally posted by jimdo
The facts are simple so let me spell them out. I say this from the perspective of one who is no longer in the classroom but actually in the hospital and soon graduating. Americans who train overseas GENERALLY do so for a reason, and that reason is not because the foreign nation is their top choice.

Yes, and if we are making generalizations, D.O. students generally go that route because they could not get into an allopathic school. Again, so what?

Originally posted by jimdo
I am not condemning people for making decisions, but I do take offense at people trying to suggest that a backup decision such as training overseas can match the training of an American institution.

By making this statement, you are assuming that (1) most Carib students do all their training in some third-world type hospital in the slums of some Caribbean island; and (2) the U.S. system is, in all instances, superior to all other medical instruction systems in the world. Again, I would caution you not to OVER-generalize. There are many Europeans who would take great offense at this typical "superiority" complex that Americans are so often accused of.

Originally posted by jimdo
Deep down I would bet that you know this to be true. I do not know your personal reasons for going overseas, but I would guess (purely guess) that given the opportunity you would have trained here.

I won't deny that. But, I'm not a woman or a minority, and - yes (again, if we are generalizing) - that severely limited my chances at getting an allopathic spot in the U.S. despite my better than average undergraduate grades and MCAT scores and also due to the fact that I reside in a more competitive state for allopathic admissions. Furthermore, I didn't even apply to U.S. schools this time (and the last time I did was 1993). So, how does that fit into your theory?

Originally posted by jimdo
Before you attack someone for stating an opinion and showing your own level of immaturity, take a long look in the mirror.

WHAT?!?? I'm not attacking ANYONE for doing ANYTHING? Have you read this entire post? I think you are confused. I'm all for people remembering this golden rule: it is up to the individual to do their best despite and in spite of what obstacles they may have encountered AND to recognize their bias and what that bias is based on, which is more often hearsay and innuendo rather than fact. If you go back and read this thread from the beginning, you'll see who started in with the misinformation - considering the source is paramount in this instance. There is a long history with this "kid" on this and other forums.

Originally posted by jimdo
You have made decisions for whatever reasons.

Don't we all? What do you mean by this statement exactly? Or, do you mean anything by it?

Originally posted by jimdo
It is not appropriate to lash out at those who state something that deep down you probably know to be true, and who are making decisions appropriate for their own circumstances.

I don't know anything to be inherently true. I base my opinions on facts and clear-headed observations. I know that so far I am getting a good medical education, and that it is likely equal to if not superior in many regards to the education that some U.S. students are getting at their schools. What do I base that on? Dedication to teaching by the instructors and their exhaustive availability off hours, a system (in the pre-clinical sciences) that is dedicated 100% to instruction without research conflicts and resultant failure to meet students needs, the fact that we take and do as well as (and better, in some cases than) U.S. schools on standardized testing, measured by the exact same exams that U.S. students take, and - lastly - the fact that the important clinical clerkships are all conducted at U.S. hospitals, in many cases side-by-side with U.S. medical students. And, if you are going to indict those teaching facilities, as the "kid" has ignorantly done, you are indicting the entire U.S. medical system at the same time.

Originally posted by jimdo
Again,

Unfortunately, there is a strong sense of bashing and inapproprite comments flung around in this forum. I simply wish that those who post do so with respect to their opinion but without giving the profession a diminished image.

I would ask everyone who is the one on this thread who is really "diminishing" the "image". Finally, if you don't like the heat, I'd invite you to leave the kitchen.
 
As someone who is applying for residency positions, let me tell you the schema that is overwhelmingly agreed upon in terms of prestige:

1) US MD
2) US DO
3) Foreign MD

I have been told many, many times that all US trained physicians are given preference over foregin trained ones.

IMHO, one would have to be ignorant to turn down a US DO school in favor of a foreign MD school.
 
As one who has been in private practice and academic medicine, there is a lot of resistance to DO than to MD from anywhere since it is assumed that all MDs attend allopathic residencies while DOs may not.
Everything is moot when the physicians come on board because DOs are just as good.
 
almostMD:

First off, who's sockpuppet are you? You just signed-up for an account like an hour ago. That means you either (a) have been a lurker and suddenly just decided to post on this thread and probably have not read this thread in its entirety, or (b) are posting as someone else to deflect criticism from a previous post you made here. Which is it?

Secondly, in response to your assertions, show me any data that shows that U.S. citizens who get a degree from a reputable foreign school and successfully pass all their licensure exams do any worse than D.O. students across the board. I'm talking residencies, I'm talking future opportunities, I'm talking malpractice rates... you name it. You can't because there is no difference. THAT is the entire point! The rest is just hearsay.

The choice of D.O. vs. Carib M.D. is a preference, people. Some may prefer to stay in the U.S. and do their training at a D.O. school, and carry those initials behind their name for the rest of their lives with the requisite looks and stares and canned explanations of what a D.O. is (which hopefully will change in the coming years). Some may choose to go to the Caribbean and bear the brunt of the stigma associated with going off-shore during their PG training. Likewise, some may wish to hide their shingles because they went to a "less-reputable" U.S. medical school.

We all can't be Harvard or Hopkins grads. So what? Just make your choice and learn to live by it. But, in the interim, don't spread a lot of misinformation and - quite simply - lies about certain routes being "better" or "worse" than other routes.

We all have our preferences. Don't begrudge mine, and I won't begrudge yours. And, most importantly, don't try to justify your own choices by putting down someone elses. I guarantee you that there are a lot of U.S. medical students out there that I know a hell of a lot more than concerning medicine. Likewise, there are a lot of nurses out there who know a hell of a lot more than I do. So what?

And, if you think you're going to know everything at the end of medical school (or worse, you think that you do know everything at the end of medical school), you're going to have a rough time during your residency. None of us is perfect. We all have knowledge gaps. Read that again: we all have knowledge gaps. That's why the study of medicine is a lifelong pursuit.

Of course, some idiots, like the "kid", already think they know everything after one semester. :rolleyes:
 
Old article, but thought it was interesting. When I read this part I thought of you guys..... Enjoy!

http://www.ama-assn.org/sci-pubs/amnews/pick_02/prl20121.htm#rbar_add

"George Sheldon, MD, past chair of the Assn. of American Medical Colleges, thinks that the United States needs more physicians. In another essay in Health Affairs, Dr. Sheldon calls for U.S. medical schools to increase enrollment. Each year 65% of 23,000 residency positions are filled with graduates of U.S. medical schools; the remaining residency slots are filled by international medical school graduates, who are increasingly Americans.

"The focus should be on having more U.S. grads to fill these slots," said Dr. Sheldon, professor of surgery at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill School of Medicine. "If we had 20 more students for every medical school, we could catch up in a hurry. There are many U.S. IMGs who could get into schools here if we had slots. They are going to be practicing physicians in the U.S. anyway. My preference is that we educate them indigenously."
 
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