DO vs MD
- Thread starter Raheel Zahir
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Disagree. As a D.O. Finishing his pulm/cc fellowship and seeing the offers I am getting this is a pretty misinformed comment. I would also beg to differ from my D.O. friends who are in neurosurgery, ortho, optho and rads.
Exceptional students do go to DO schools (and I mean EXCEPTIONAL), and those students can get into those specialties. But for your average DO students, I am correct in my statement. Oh by the way, for DO students of my generation, we won't have those DO protected super specialty residencies anymore.
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AnatomyGrey12
Do you think all those EM and anesthesia or Rads matches were from the top students in the class? I’ll answer that for you, no, no they weren’t. Average DO students still have good options, the world is not divided into the ultra competitive fields and family med or psych.
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Its all about your work ethic, desire, connections you make a long the way and a bit of luck. MD or DO does not define you in any way shape or form. I know tons of DO students who make it into prestigious allopathic residencies and Fellowships and I know MD students who have trouble getting into "specialties". It's not always about the numbers either. In the fellowship I am in we have turned away people who are top 1% in just about everything because they do not make the right impression and have taken people who would say are above average on paper but nothing spectacular because of what we see from them. Some of it is right place right time kind of situation as well. Also regarding "DO's of my generation" its way to early to say how things will shake up. There may be some programs who have never taken DO that may jump at the cream of the crop and will take them into ultra-competitive specialties.
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814965
There have been DOs who have gone on to become astronauts. What does that tell you about their limits?
And you're saying it like being a primary care doc is some horrible thing. It's not. If you become a specialist you're going to be kissing their feet for patient referrals. And even if DOs were confined to it they could always get around it by doing IM ----> heme/onc, gastro, cardio, ID, nephro, etc.
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I find it ironic how every bleeding heart premed will recite that medicine is their passion and its not about money - but then turn around and **** on primary care specialties because of the low pay, and equate that with lack of prestige.
If everyone became ortho or derm for the money ( is program slots permitted) where would you take your child when they got sick
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If everyone became ortho or derm for the money ( is program slots permitted) where would you take your child when they got sick
Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
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AnatomyGrey12
Lol
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I've worked in healthcare for many years. Seen smart MDs, dumb MDs, smart DOs, dumb DOs... At the end of the day I want the *best* physician, regardless of if he went to school at Harvard or some place in Europe I've never heard of.
The *reality* is that the DO track is an uphill battle in specialty match, but for many of us overcoming long odds has been a way of life, and is therefore less scary.
(fwiw I'm a current applicant who's already interviewed at allopathic and osteopathic schools)
The *reality* is that the DO track is an uphill battle in specialty match, but for many of us overcoming long odds has been a way of life, and is therefore less scary.
(fwiw I'm a current applicant who's already interviewed at allopathic and osteopathic schools)
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I've worked in healthcare for many years. Seen smart MDs, dumb MDs, smart DOs, dumb DOs... At the end of the day I want the *best* physician, regardless of if he went to school at Harvard or some place in Europe I've never heard of.
The *reality* is that the DO track is an uphill battle in specialty match, but for many of us overcoming long odds has been a way of life, and is therefore less scary.
(fwiw I'm a current applicant who's already interviewed at allopathic and osteopathic schools)
To what extent though? Do you believe Caribbeans is a decent choice?
I'm an advocate for any and every U.S.A. medical school. Not a fan of international choices.
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AnatomyGrey12
If they are a board certified doc then it doesn’t matter where they went to school. The Caribbean schools are iffy because of their attrition and scrupulous admissions practices, anyone who gets a residency and becomes board certified deserves respect and is fully qualified.
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I've worked with Caribbean docs. My PARTICULAR sampling hasn't left me with a good taste in my mouth, but I'm sure they graduate some stellar folks.
The reality of those programs shouldn't be ignored either. There may be some that give a good education and produce decent residents, but I'm not knowledgable enough about medical education to say one way or another.
You have to zoom out, look at your career, and try to find a path that will fulfill your goals. I'm sure there are cases where international school is an okay choice, but obviously it's going to put up HUGE barriers.
To a MUCH lesser extent, D.O. schools put up barriers if you want to match certain specialties. That's just the reality. If you enter into it with eyes wide open I think it's silly to talk about "ranking," unless there is concrete data that the care received from a D.O. is somehow lesser than an M.D.
We know that D.O. schools accept lower GPAs and lower MCATs on average, but does that correlate with a difference in board-certified physician practice? I'd have to see better data to even build an inkling.
Again, I'm not an expert by any means, but I've seen D.O.s earn Chief Residency at an ACGME program ahead of school alumni allopaths. The medical chief of NASA is a D.O., and taught at Des Moines. There's a D.O. faculty at Hopkins.
I think being informed and knowing the consequences of each decision is what's important. Resources like SDN can be helpful (or harmful), but getting out into the real world helps with perspective a LOT.
The reality of those programs shouldn't be ignored either. There may be some that give a good education and produce decent residents, but I'm not knowledgable enough about medical education to say one way or another.
You have to zoom out, look at your career, and try to find a path that will fulfill your goals. I'm sure there are cases where international school is an okay choice, but obviously it's going to put up HUGE barriers.
To a MUCH lesser extent, D.O. schools put up barriers if you want to match certain specialties. That's just the reality. If you enter into it with eyes wide open I think it's silly to talk about "ranking," unless there is concrete data that the care received from a D.O. is somehow lesser than an M.D.
We know that D.O. schools accept lower GPAs and lower MCATs on average, but does that correlate with a difference in board-certified physician practice? I'd have to see better data to even build an inkling.
Again, I'm not an expert by any means, but I've seen D.O.s earn Chief Residency at an ACGME program ahead of school alumni allopaths. The medical chief of NASA is a D.O., and taught at Des Moines. There's a D.O. faculty at Hopkins.
I think being informed and knowing the consequences of each decision is what's important. Resources like SDN can be helpful (or harmful), but getting out into the real world helps with perspective a LOT.
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The argument of an uphill battle for DOs to competitive residencies is becoming less and less valid, especially with the merger of residencies and standardized scoring. The real truth will come when DOs and MDs have equal opportunity to all residencies, then we can see if the scores match up with the matching. If they don't, there's prejudice. If they do, then DO shouldn't be considered a disadvantaged route to any medical field, but just a DIFFERENT route.
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It's all of the above.... the thing with residencies are it's too hard to generalize something. Each residency program is run by a different program director, with different interactions, connections, interests, etc. Yea, there will be some who are anti-DO, there will be some who don't care, there will be some who are DO's but the person has a spouse who's an MD at that hospital so they just take them in, etc. etc. Residency PD's have the ability to be more biased/prejudiced on what they want b/c there's so many programs, and most accept so few students, so it's very hard to regulate it.
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AnatomyGrey12
Lol no. It’s beccoming more and more valid.
No. First, DOs could always take the USMLE and have always performed worse than their MD counterparts there is no “standardized scoring.” COMLEX is still the DO licensing exam.
This will NEVER happen unless the schools were merged into LCME accred and effectively became MD schools.
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False equivalency. If they don't (that is, if DOs and MDs don't match identically all other factors being equal including USMLE score), sure there may be prejudice. But if they do (they won't, for reasons AnatomyGrey12 mentioned) then it doesn't necessarily speak to whether or not DOs should be considered disadvantaged because it ignores the average USMLE scores for all DOs compared to MDs.
I.e., there are two points to this that I see:
1) DOs with equivalent USMLE scores to MDs match to less competitive residencies due to bias (but also probably some at least partially legitimate concerns of PDs, like consistency in clinical education quality and how used to the residency hierarchy DOs are)
2) DOs will be disadvantaged for specialty placement as a whole, independent of DO vs MD bias, as long as average USMLE scores for DOs are lower than for MDs, because USMLE is the greatest determinant of residency placement.
Right now, both are the case. You were wrong to suggest that if MD/DO scores match up evenly with matching then there is prejudice, because legitimate PD concerns from 1 could still exist. Also, if they do match up, and 1 is no longer true (hooray!) then DOs would still be at a disadvantage as long as 2 existed and USMLE mattered for residency placement.
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deleted831695
It's 2017 and we STILL have these threads???
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If you're a competitive applicant go MD
If you're not a competitive applicant go DO
if you're in between apply for both
If you're not a competitive applicant go DO
if you're in between apply for both
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Eghhh you can't generalize anything.... I have a few classmates who chose my school over MD schools. Location is big for us... being in a major city DO school vs. an MD school in the middle of nowhere (like Creighton in Nebraska or TCMC in Scranton). Actually come to think of it, most ppl I know who turned down MD for DO did so b/c of location. Again, just gotta see what works for you. BTW the ones who turned down the MD accepts tend to be the stronger students in our class so that's all I've got for now.
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Under those circumstance, they deserve respect, but do they always get it? That's one issue.
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... but do you have the heart of a nurse, brain of a doctor?
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This is true for some of my students as well. Location is everything.
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AnatomyGrey12
But this is the issue: an average student at creighton or Nebraska will have a more opportunities open to them than an above average students at PCOM. Now if you really don’t care about that then sure choose location, but don’t complain come match day that you don’t get the same opportunities.
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Part of it can be living situation. Cost of living vs. staying with family can make a HUGE financial difference for some people.
Obviously that's front end vs. back end expenses and opportunity cost, but a lot of people make decisions based on how it's going to impact their perceived finances *now.*
Obviously that's front end vs. back end expenses and opportunity cost, but a lot of people make decisions based on how it's going to impact their perceived finances *now.*
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Why is that? Where is this doom built into the system?
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To give you and everyone the most accurate picture, take a look at this:
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf
At the last page for each specialty, there's a bar that shows the percentage of each applicant type (MD, prev. MD, DO, IMG, etc.) that each specialty usually, seldomly, and never ranks.
And @AnatomyGrey12 you always say that MD>DO, but check out the stats for PM&R.
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The way I like to think about it is (not sure if this is correct), but if you have a solid step 1 score ( >240), publications/research in the field, and solid LORs, you can get into whatever you want. Obviously you have to be an above average student, but its shown on every single schools match list that its possible. Just have to bust your a** harder than the MD student going against you!
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AnatomyGrey12
This is because PMR is not a field that is heavily applied to by USMDs. Ask anyone that is seriously considering PM&R, you still have to be better than your MD counterparts. However, PM&R is one of the rare fields where the top programs will take a qualified DO candidate
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That's the thing, I don't think you need to be better in this field. I think it's equal.
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AnatomyGrey12
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AnatomyGrey12
But even if it is, one field does not make the statement MD>DO false.
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haha I know man, just saying it's not ALWAYS the case. (Also as a side note, I think DO>MD for a low-tier student. Having DO residencies as backup options for ppl who barely pass is better than being an MD who's struggling and expected more out of them.) Thoughts? I'm thinking a student who got a 410 on COMLEX is more likely to match than an MD student who got <200. (For let's say FM, a general IM or whatever "easy" specialties there are).
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AnatomyGrey12
The match statistics would hint otherwise, especially now with the merger.
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I wish this is true but unfortunately, the program directors at super top places (even in academic IM) are so addicted to prestige that many well qualified MD and DO students are weeded out simply because they aren't from a top school. It's annoying but it's a sad reality of the situation.
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Are you including DO match as well? B/c that's the kicker. I think even post-merger this is the case.... DO FM programs will still take DO's, loll.
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Yeah I dont think that a top-tier DO student will be able to match a Yale surgical residency, but with a high score and other qualifications I think they will be able to at least match in their desired field.
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AnatomyGrey12
Bad data
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AnatomyGrey12
USMDs matched to family med at a rate of 10/13 wth Step scores between 181-190..... let that sink in...
There is literally not a scenario where being a DO student in the match is more advantageous than a US MD.
There is literally not a scenario where being a DO student in the match is more advantageous than a US MD.
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I don't feel like its that much tougher for DOs to enter the field versus MDs TBH. However, seems like the DO PM&R residents think there some bias. It wouldn't be far fetched to say our chances are similar to MDs if our applications match up.
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deleted831695
Lol, I haven't even been on SDN for very long, and I swear I've seen a dozen other iterations of this same post from you.
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AnatomyGrey12
It’s a constant struggle lol, there is always someone new who comes in to tout how equal everything is.
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deleted831695
I get it, but I also think a lot of these posts (not specifically yours) seem to 'lower' the degree and give uninformed individuals the wrong idea.
I mean, what AnatomyGrey is talking about is true. Please take a look at the pdf that MADD posted just a few post above.
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AnatomyGrey12
Yes I am a realist but you take things too far honestly.
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He is obviously better than all DO students as a MD student. I mean, why advance the status of all physicians (MD or DO or MBBS) when you can rip on your counterparts instead? Who cares about midlevel encroachment and their vying for freedom of practice? Simply criticize your future coworkers, that's obviously the way to go.
Don't worry, I am a realist too, and nothing I have said is too farfetched.
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AnatomyGrey12
He is obviously better than all DO students as a MD student. I mean, why advance the status of all physicians (MD or DO or MBBS) when you can rip on your counterparts instead? Who cares about midlevel encroachment and their vying for freedom of practice? Simply criticize your future coworkers, that's obviously the way to go.
Nice straw man, I’ve never “ripped my counterparts.” Also anyone who has spent even the tiniest amount of time on here knows I am a DO student.
