Do you believe in evolution through natural selection?

[StormingWynn]

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then you believe God is bound by the laws of the universe? or by time?
you believe that the universe is eternal and had no beginning? or is it that you believe God came to be when the universe did?

😕

The laws of physics can change. I believe there is no beginning nor no end. How can there be a beginning if there is no end? How can there be an end if there is no beginning? It's only possible for them two items to co-exist if they are one and the same. Which when you see if like that means. The beginning is the end which is the beginning. Etc. And endless loophole.

 

[greatnt249]

If someone else comes around and finds a new discovery, our understanding of the natural world improves. The Bible doesn't change. I'm gonna stick with the consistent.

Fixed your "argument" for you in order to correct your insistence on referring to science as an entity.

By the way, consistency does not imply that an argument is valid.

Why is change a bad thing, anyway?

 

[RogueUnicorn]

 

[greatnt249]

I almost used Pastafarianism as an example, but thought better of it.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

i don't even want to bother making an intelligent argument of it, but i post the picture as a shining beacon of reason.

 

[DrSno]

Some people in this thread need to do some reading:

 

[austinap]

If you don't take every part of the Bible literally, then you can take the section that said Jesus died for our sins and say it's not literal, then there is no defeat of sin, we're not saved, and we're all going to hell. The Bible also has many historical truths, for instance Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel, and also the prophecies in Daniel which talk about the Roman Empire, the Turkish Empire, and others that happened. You don't know if insects back then had four legs, the Earth easily could have been formed before the sun, and the Bible's definition of pi can be different than pi now.

Thank you, now I know you're a troll. That's actually a relief.

I also don't like a lot of Dawkins' more recent stuff because he comes off a bit too 'prickish' to me, but "The Blind Watchmaker" was a really great book. It's especially cool because it's relatively old, yet makes predictions that have held up through some pretty significant advances in molecular biology / genetics techniques.

 

[angst019]

The fact that so many organisms share so much genetic material, but not perfectly, suggests strongly for evolution. Furthermore, the fact that the bases absolutely required for functionality are conserved while non-essential bases are not conserved is suggestive of evolution by natural selection.

 

[oaklandguy]

Thank you, now I know you're a troll. That's actually a relief.

I also don't like a lot of Dawkins' more recent stuff because he comes off a bit too 'prickish' to me, but "The Blind Watchmaker" was a really great book. It's especially cool because it's relatively old, yet makes predictions that have held up through some pretty significant advances in molecular biology / genetics techniques.

You're absolutely right, I am an idiot for not thinking evolution is fact and explains how we came to be... I'm a troll because of this belief as well and because of the mediocre way I go about explaining my point. Because I have a different belief than you I am inferior to you. Good luck dealing with any religious patients, I hope you tell them the God they believe in doesn't exist and there's no hope for their chronic illness.

 

[greatnt249]

If you don't take every part of the Bible literally, then you can take the section that said Jesus died for our sins and say it's not literal, then there is no defeat of sin, we're not saved, and we're all going to hell. The Bible also has many historical truths, for instance Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel, and also the prophecies in Daniel which talk about the Roman Empire, the Turkish Empire, and others that happened. You don't know if insects back then had four legs, the Earth easily could have been formed before the sun, and the Bible's definition of pi can be different than pi now.

Oh, come on now; do you really think the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter has changed in three thousand years?🙄

 

[greatnt249]

You're absolutely right, I am an idiot for not thinking evolution is fact and explains how we came to be... I'm a troll because of this belief as well and because of the mediocre way I go about explaining my point. Because I have a different belief than you I am inferior to you. Good luck dealing with any religious patients, I hope you tell them the God they believe in doesn't exist and there's no hope for their chronic illness.

Believing in evolution isn't saying "God doesn't exist."

 

[Vulcan]

FTW aright im out have fun guys

 

[rockaction]

You're absolutely right, I am an idiot for not thinking evolution is fact and explains how we came to be... I'm a troll because of this belief as well and because of the mediocre way I go about explaining my point. Because I have a different belief than you I am inferior to you. Good luck dealing with any religious patients, I hope you tell them the God they believe in doesn't exist and there's no hope for their chronic illness.

Way to be dramatic.

How many times do we have to tell you that you can both believe in the Bible and accept reality? Because you're wrong about evolution. Dead wrong. So the problem is you, and you need to reconcile with it.

 

[oaklandguy]

The fact that so many organisms share so much genetic material, but not perfectly, suggests strongly for evolution. Furthermore, the fact that the bases absolutely required for functionality are conserved while non-essential bases are not conserved is suggestive of evolution by natural selection.

Actually, it can also strongly suggest 1 creator. 1 creator using the same material for everything.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

You're absolutely right, I am an idiot for not thinking evolution is fact and explains how we came to be... I'm a troll because of this belief as well and because of the mediocre way I go about explaining my point. Because I have a different belief than you I am inferior to you. Good luck dealing with any religious patients, I hope you tell them the God they believe in doesn't exist and there's no hope for their chronic illness.

lol@irony and lack of self awareness.

 

[DrSno]

You're absolutely right, I am an idiot for not thinking evolution is fact and explains how we came to be... I'm a troll because of this belief as well and because of the mediocre way I go about explaining my point. Because I have a different belief than you I am inferior to you. Good luck dealing with any religious patients, I hope you tell them the God they believe in doesn't exist and there's no hope for their chronic illness.

Because of all that we know now, believing in god is as silly as believing in Santa. It's ok to criticize someone for their beliefs if they are completely contrary to reality. Many people don't understand this simple concept.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Actually, it can also strongly suggest 1 creator. 1 creator using the same material for everything.

GOD DOES NOT NEED TO BE CONSTRAINED BY THE SAME BUILDING BLOCKS ZZZZOMG!!!

get a grip.

 

[musafirah]

The laws of physics can change. I believe there is no beginning nor no end. How can there be a beginning if there is no end? How can there be an end if there is no beginning? It's only possible for them two items to co-exist if they are one and the same. Which when you see if like that means. The beginning is the end which is the beginning. Etc. And endless loophole.

but time itself has a beginning. what you describe- eternity, must exist outside the bounds of the universe.
theories change, laws are more difficult to disprove.

The fact that so many organisms share so much genetic material, but not perfectly, suggests strongly for evolution. Furthermore, the fact that the bases absolutely required for functionality are conserved while non-essential bases are not conserved is suggestive of evolution by natural selection.

to me, these similarities reinforce the idea that everything came from nothing, and we are all stardust. they do not describe any kind of mechanism for different organisms coming about. darwinian evolution is not the only way to interpret these similarities/analogies.

 

[boaz]

Alright I'm going to skip the nitty-gritty for now, cut to the chase and ask those who are of the persuasion that there is no God:

For argument's sake, let's say we humans are simply probabilistic products of a long chain of natural selection. As such, human biology is governed by the same rules as the biology of Staphylococcus aureus.

Now, as future doctors ask yourselves: "why in the world should I treat a pediatric patient with a genetic disorder? Why propagate these bad genes?"

 

[oaklandguy]

Way to be dramatic.

How many times do we have to tell you that you can both believe in the Bible and accept reality? Because you're wrong about evolution. Dead wrong. So the problem is you, and you need to reconcile with it.

My school must blow because I got 100% on the biology exam that covered evolution... So, if it's really that bad of a problem I don't seem to be having any problems with it.

And to the spaghetti monster... my only comeback is ******ed fish frogs.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Alright I'm going to skip the nitty-gritty for now, cut to the chase and ask those who are of the persuasion that there is no God:

For argument's sake, let's say we humans are simply probabilistic products of a long chain of natural selection. As such, human biology is governed by the same rules as the biology of Staphylococcus aureus.

Now, as future doctors ask yourselves: "why in the world should I treat a pediatric patient with a genetic disorder? Why propagate these bad genes?"

lolwut random jumps lolwut

 

[RogueUnicorn]

My school must blow because I got 100% on the biology exam that covered evolution... So, if it's really that bad of a problem I don't seem to be having any problems with it.

And to the spaghetti monster... my only comeback is ******ed fish frogs.

 

[TheDuder]

You can't disprove anything, from pink unicorns on venus to the judeo christian god. The onus is on those who makes a claim.

👍
Flying spaghetti monster!

 

[rockaction]

My school must blow because I got 100% on the biology exam that covered evolution... So, if it's really that bad of a problem I don't seem to be having any problems with it.

Wow you have a knack for missing points. It has nothing to do whether you are competent enough to score well on an exam. It has to do with how you view science.

Are you a freshman?

 

[c5212]

this is probably the greatest topic for a thread i've seen to date... +1 for number one- organisims evolved w/o any guidance from this imaginary friend that I keep hearing about 🙄

 

[angst019]

Now, as future doctors ask yourselves: "why in the world should I treat a pediatric patient with a genetic disorder? Why propagate these bad genes?"

Because human morals tell us to. These can exist with or without God and are not a good argument for his/her existence.

"Why listen to morals?" is the follow-up. If the answer is "because God told me to," it would then be equally moral to kill genetically 'bad' babies if God had commanded it. This makes both God's goodness and morality arbitrary and does not account for the way we tend to feel about either subject.

The answer is elsewhere and digs too deep for this thread.

 

[greatnt249]

Alright I'm going to skip the nitty-gritty for now, cut to the chase and ask those who are of the persuasion that there is no God:

For argument's sake, let's say we humans are simply probabilistic products of a long chain of natural selection. As such, human biology is governed by the same rules as the biology of Staphylococcus aureus.

Now, as future doctors ask yourselves: "why in the world should I treat a pediatric patient with a genetic disorder? Why propagate these bad genes?"

"Bad" can only be used as a descriptor relative to the environment. Sickle-cell genes are "bad," but they confer an advantage in heterozygous carriers since such a mutation gives the carrier immunity to malaria.

You also make the assumption that the affected individual will a) survive to reproductive age and b) actually procreate.

 

[rockaction]

Because human morals tell us to. These can exist with or without God and are not a good argument for his/her existence.

"Why listen to morals?" is the follow-up. If the answer is "because God told me to," it would then be equally moral to kill genetically 'bad' babies if God had commanded it. This makes both God's goodness and morality arbitrary and does not account for the way we tend to feel about either subject.

The answer is elsewhere and digs too deep for this thread.

golf clap

 

[oaklandguy]

Wow you have a knack for missing points. It has nothing to do whether you are competent enough to score well on an exam. It has to do with how you view science.

Are you a freshman?

No. I understand the science of evolution. I understand why the majority of people on here believe in it. I however, don't believe in it. You think I am silly, and incompetent because I do not believe in it. I am defend myself by attacking the flaws I see in the theory for why I do not believe in it. The people on here do not find my arguments appealing. There is very lack of open mindedness on this thread and I hope you guys all become better at dealing with people of different viewpoints than you in real life situations. I have my beliefs for reasons, whether those reasons are stupid to you or "unreal" or whatever, that has no impact on the type of physician I would become, or the way I diagnose patients, or any of these things. These beliefs are simply beliefs, which do affect the decisions I make and the way I live my life.

 

[codswallop]

Actually, it can also strongly suggest 1 creator. 1 creator using the same material for everything.

The taste receptor for sweet substances is a dimer. At least some felines can't taste sweet substances because, although the genes for both proteins of the dimer are present, one of them carries a mutation that ablates its expression. Makes sense if you understand (not "believe in") evolution. Makes no sense if you think a ghost designed each organism uniquely.

 

[musafirah]

Because human morals tell us to. These can exist with or without God and are not a good argument for his/her existence.

and those morals contradict darwinism: survival of the fittest, according to which, those human morals are stifling evolutionary progress.

 

[rockaction]

No. I understand the science of evolution. I understand why the majority of people on here believe in it.

It's not a matter of belief, it's science.......

I however, don't believe in it. You think I am silly, and incompetent because I do not believe in it.

No, I'm just disappointed because you don't accept evolution because of the Bible

I am defend myself by attacking the flaws I see in the theory for why I do not believe in it. The people on here do not find my arguments appealing.

You have no argument of substance that pokes any legitimate holes into the theory.

There is very lack of open mindedness on this thread and I hope you guys all become better at dealing with people of different viewpoints than you in real life situations.

Science is harsh. Deal with it, dude.

I have my beliefs for reasons, whether those reasons are stupid to you or "unreal" or whatever, that has no impact on the type of physician I would become, or the way I diagnose patients, or any of these things. These beliefs are simply beliefs, which do affect the decisions I make and the way I live my life.

If your beliefs do not affect your decisions then they are meaningless. Where is your motivation in living rooted if not in your beliefs?

 

[codswallop]

and those morals contradict darwinism: survival of the fittest, according to which, those human morals are stifling evolutionary progress.

You have a poor understanding of evolution. Evolutionary "progress?" It's not a guided, goal-oriented process. Other people are a part the environment. If they provide medical care to other people, then having treatable genetic diseases doesn't necessarily hurt fitness.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Can someone tell me why this matters :/

 

[oaklandguy]

Because of all that we know now, believing in god is as silly as believing in Santa. It's ok to criticize someone for their beliefs if they are completely contrary to reality. Many people don't understand this simple concept.

Silly? Believing absolutely nothing organized our Universe isn't silly what-so-ever.

I do not have the time, energy, nor do I want to do a factorial. However, if the moon were a different weight and size, the earths axis would be off causing a completely different orbit around the sun. This would lead to the earths orbit crashing into another planets orbit. Nonetheless does evolution explain why the only planet with perfect distance from the sun to sustain life also is the planet in our solar system with vast amounts of water which is required to sustain life? It also happens that this planet has magentic poles, and an atmosphere that protects it's living creatures? Did evolution provide all of these things as well? All of these coincidences came from nothing as well? Just luck?

 

[AKPMD]

lol. you are truly special.

edit: so god made mdr TB, MRSA, etc?

Why do you care so much man? Take a chill pill pre-med.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Why do you care so much man? Take a chill pill pre-med.

i'm pretty chill right now. thanks though, pre-med. pfft.

 

[austinap]

You're absolutely right, I am an idiot for not thinking evolution is fact and explains how we came to be... I'm a troll because of this belief as well and because of the mediocre way I go about explaining my point. Because I have a different belief than you I am inferior to you. Good luck dealing with any religious patients, I hope you tell them the God they believe in doesn't exist and there's no hope for their chronic illness.

Way to completely misread what I wrote and then dramatize the hell out of it.

I said you're a troll for stating that you take everything in the bible literally. I don't know of a single modern theologian that takes such a stance. It's idiotic because the bible is not self-consistent. Taking this stance is the equivalent to saying "I don't even understand the text on which I'm basing all of my beliefs and my entire wold view". It makes you a *****.

You have a poor understanding of evolution. Evolutionary "progress?" It's not a guided, goal-oriented process. Other people are a part the environment. If they provide medical care to other people, then having treatable genetic diseases doesn't necessarily hurt fitness.

Was just going to post the same thing. At least someone here understands what evolution actually says.

 

[12345a]

so...basic rundown of this thread


rational reasonable people: 1

oklandguy and his imaginary friend: 0





(for the record, I went to church for the first 15 years of my life and a private christian school for my k - 8...i know how unreasonable the thinking is)

 

[boaz]

lolwut random jumps lolwut

I'm holding out hope you'll come up with something better.

Because human morals tell us to. These can exist with or without God and are not a good argument for his/her existence.

"Why listen to morals?" is the follow-up. If the answer is "because God told me to," it would then be equally moral to kill genetically 'bad' babies if God had commanded it. This makes both God's goodness and morality arbitrary and does not account for the way we tend to feel about either subject.

The answer is elsewhere and digs too deep for this thread.

No, morals is no argument for the existence of God.

I am asking about why we have morals and what the source is. These morals were not "discovered" in the past few hundred years by the likes of Newton, Einstein, and Darwin.

Surely, the atheist must come up with some kind of a priori argument for morals.

"Bad" can only be used as a descriptor relative to the environment. Sickle-cell genes are "bad," but they confer an advantage in heterozygous carriers since such a mutation gives the carrier immunity to malaria.

You also make the assumption that the affected individual will a) survive to reproductive age and b) actually procreate.

This is much more to the point.

However, as I'm sure you are aware, many treated genetic disorders patients survive to reproductive age and procreate.

 

[greatnt249]

and those morals contradict darwinism: survival of the fittest, according to which, those human morals are stifling evolutionary progress.

Someone needs to look up what "survival of the fittest" actually means.

 

[rockaction]

Silly? Believing absolutely nothing organized our Universe isn't silly what-so-ever.

I do not have the time, energy, nor do I want to do a factorial. However, if the moon were a different weight and size, the earths axis would be off causing a completely different orbit around the sun. This would lead to the earths orbit crashing into another planets orbit. Nonetheless does evolution explain why the only planet with perfect distance from the sun to sustain life also is the planet in our solar system with vast amounts of water which is required to sustain life? It also happens that this planet has magentic poles, and an atmosphere that protects it's living creatures? Did evolution provide all of these things as well? All of these coincidences came from nothing as well? Just luck?

Does electromagnetism explain anti-social behavior? Does heliocentrism explain neuron action potentials? Does thermodynamics explain sexuality?

Hmmm...electromagnetism, heliocentrism, and thermodynamics must be wrong then!!

 

[oaklandguy]

It's not a matter of belief, it's science.......



No, I'm just disappointed because you don't accept evolution because of the Bible



You have no argument of substance that pokes any legitimate holes into the theory.



Science is harsh. Deal with it, dude.



If your beliefs do not affect your decisions then they are meaningless. Where is your motivation in living rooted if not in your beliefs?

Science is a type of belief. That is why I mentioned Alchemy, because the entire science changed to Chemistry. I don't know if you have ever read any Hume, but I suggest reading some of his works. Just because we see something in a certain way does not mean it is actually happening in that way. You cannot see the cause-effect relationship of anything. To say anything is evidence of something is actually a flaw.

The Bible isn't the reason I do not accept evolution. I choose to believe in the Bible instead of believing in evolution. Evolution just does not overwhelm me, and does not explain enough of what happens in my life.

The fact that no animal can tame another animal, yet humans can tame every animal. The fact that we don't see monkeys building sky scrapers, yet we see humans building sky scrapers, even though we are very genetically similar. Evolution just doesn't answer my questions I guess, that is why I have the personal choice of believing in something else. If you can answer my questions, I will gladly re-asses my beliefs.

 

[Zona Pellucida]

Wait. This topic is still debatable?

I thought pretty much every scientist on the planet has come to a general consensus.




Catholic schools from Preschool - 12th grade and a college founded in the Catholic tradition FTL.

 

[StormingWynn]

i'm pretty chill right now. thanks though, pre-med. pfft.

You do realize that come off as an idiot to half the people on here because of the snotty, smart aleck-y, and immature comments don't you?

 

[musafirah]

You have a poor understanding of evolution. Evolutionary "progress?" It's not a guided, goal-oriented process. Other people are a part the environment. If they provide medical care to other people, then having treatable genetic diseases doesn't necessarily hurt fitness.

note that i said "darwinism" not evolution.
perhaps i should have said "social darwinism" to be clearer. the question was about morals and not science.

but, i supposed its convenient to pick and choose and ignore those social implications

 

[rockaction]

Science is a type of belief. That is why I mentioned Alchemy, because the entire science changed to Chemistry. I don't know if you have ever read any Hume, but I suggest reading some of his works. Just because we see something in a certain way does not mean it is actually happening in that way. You cannot see the cause-effect relationship of anything. To say anything is evidence of something is actually a flaw.

I've read Hume. But for all practicality, we must assume cause-effect relationships. Science has worked for us and is the foundation of everything that supports your life. You want to enter a field built on science. So getting rid of this extreme skepticism of causality may be something you need to work on.

The Bible isn't the reason I do not accept evolution. I choose to believe in the Bible instead of believing in evolution. Evolution just does not overwhelm me, and does not explain enough of what happens in my life.

You can have both, you know. That's all I'm suggesting.

The fact that no animal can tame another animal, yet humans can tame every animal. The fact that we don't see monkeys building sky scrapers, yet we see humans building sky scrapers, even though we are very genetically similar. Evolution just doesn't answer my questions I guess, that is why I have the personal choice of believing in something else. If you can answer my questions, I will gladly re-asses my beliefs.

These are some crappy questions dude. Do you have anything better? Go read up on human evolution. It's a fascinating and expansive topic. Just because you can't comprehend it doesn't mean it's not right.

 

[greatnt249]

This is much more to the point.

However, as I'm sure you are aware, many treated genetic disorders patients survive to reproductive age and procreate.

Well, we did it to ourselves. Civilization has progressed to the point where we can effectively mitigate many of the threats that nature imposes on us that would normally weed us out of the gene pool before successfully reaching reproductive age. As a result, the "standards of fitness" for surviving and procreating in this world have been greatly reduced.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

You do realize that come off as an idiot to half the people on here because of the snotty, smart aleck-y, and immature comments don't you?

i don't know what this sentence is actually supposed to mean. but thanks for taking a poll of half the people here.

 

[12345a]

The fact that no animal can tame another animal, yet humans can tame every animal. The fact that we don't see monkeys building sky scrapers, yet we see humans building sky scrapers, even though we are very genetically similar. Evolution just doesn't answer my questions I guess, that is why I have the personal choice of believing in something else. If you can answer my questions, I will gladly re-asses my beliefs.

you're getting there buddy....you're getting there....