Does the Medical School Matter?

[Kewell35]

If you are an IMG with great USMLE scores, does the medical school, or where you attended medical school play a significant role in matching?

I know USMLE scores, LOR, USCE matters a lot but I was wondering how much the weight the school carries (Let's say SGU vs UWI or UWI vs. USAT).

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[Skip Intro]

I have spoken about this extensively in the past. Briefly, recapping:

• Some (if not many) Program Directors have experience filling their programs with graduates of Caribbean programs who have successfully completed residency at their program without hiccups.
• The "track record", if you will, of these graduates is (at least in their mind) reflective of the strength of the preparative undergraduate medical training they have received, as well as the "weeding out" process that (sometimes unfortunately) goes on at those schools.
• The "well" of applicants that these residency programs thus draw from is often considered a known entity, and PDs are more likely to go back to that same well.

Now, ask yourself: all things being equal (USMLE scores, LORs, etc.) for a residency program applicant, who do you think a PD who has experience with a more well-known, well-established, and historically proven Carib medical program is going to choose from?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/why-is-the-caribbean-is-a-good-decision.1082017/

-Skip

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

If you are an IMG with great USMLE scores, does the medical school, or where you attended medical school play a significant role in matching?

I know USMLE scores, LOR, USCE matters a lot but I was wondering how much the weight the school carries (Let's say SGU vs UWI or UWI vs. USAT).

With SGU you have a chance but its just extremely difficult. With the others you don't really have much of a shot. Also only SGU Ross Saba auc are accredited

 

[Kewell35]

With SGU you have a chance but its just extremely difficult. With the others you don't really have much of a shot. Also only SGU Ross Saba auc are accredited

What about AUA? Aren't they one of the top?
Also, what about having a step 1 USMLE score of 260/99? How much would that help if one attends UWI and has that score? Thanks for your advice.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

What about AUA? Aren't they one of the top?
Also, what about having a step 1 USMLE score of 260/99? How much would that help if one attends UWI and has that score? Thanks for your advice.

AUA isn't a big 4 school. Big 4 schools are a giant gamble. They are a terrible idea. Non big 4 schools are a scam. A 260 uslme doesn't guarantee anything as your app will be filtered out from most places.

 

[chicagochildpsych]

If you have a 260 and you are normal you will match, but you don't have that score (yet, most likely never). I am an AUC grad, and a double boarded md in practice. I would strongly recommend going the DO route first.

 

[maygog]

Caribbean schools are NOT equal by standards, residency placements and quality of education. SGU, ROSS and AUC are the cream of the crop in the Caribbean due to their proven track record, secured clinical and residency sites in the States and they are TRUSTWORTHY and even those are a huge risk since many many grads from them DO NOT match.

The rest of the caribbean schools are scam - they are just there to rip you off, without a residency etc. Don't get fooled by how well a caribbean school markets itself. AUA, MUA and the rest of these boat load of caribbean schools over inflate their stats (i.e., step 1 pass rates, residency placements etc) on their websites and info seminar. When in doubt, do consult with local physicians who might have attended a caribbean school or even better if you know someone on the islands (i.e., relatives, friends, local physicians etc) where the school is located - they are probably the best source to give you some inside scoop/realistic info about the caribbean school - especially the scam schools or the non big 4 like AUA, MUA etc.

 

[Kewell35]

If you have a 260 and you are normal you will match, but you don't have that score (yet, most likely never). I am an AUC grad, and a double boarded md in practice. I would strongly recommend going the DO route first.

Actually I do. The undermining is quite unbelievable. I went to UWI because I am from the Caribbean and it is not considered an offshore school and I would like to practice in the states. Many students here get in the higher percentiles and go abroad. I don't see the relevance to your credentials. But thanks for the advice.

 

[Kewell35]

With SGU you have a chance but its just extremely difficult. With the others you don't really have much of a shot. Also only SGU Ross Saba auc are accredited

Doesn't 99% of the SGU students get a residency placement? So how is that extremely difficult. Or are they lying? I know Caribbean schools are definitely sub-par compared to US schools and I really appreciate your advice, but is it really extremely difficult if you attend SGU?

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Doesn't 99% of the SGU students get a residency placement? So how is that extremely difficult. Or are they lying? I know Caribbean schools are definitely sub-par compared to US schools and I really appreciate your advice, but is it really extremely difficult if you attend SGU?

SGU has a 67 percent match. This doesn't take into account most going into primary care and dead end prelim spots. It doesn't factor in large attrition rates and residency placements in bad areas in weak programs. It also seems to be trending worse unfortunately.

 

[Kewell35]

Caribbean schools are NOT equal by standards, residency placements and quality of education. SGU, ROSS and AUC are the cream of the crop in the Caribbean due to their proven track record, secured clinical and residency sites in the States and they are TRUSTWORTHY and even those are a huge risk since many many grads from them DO NOT match.

The rest of the caribbean schools are scam - they are just there to rip you off, without a residency etc. Don't get fooled by how well a caribbean school markets itself. AUA, MUA and the rest of these boat load of caribbean schools over inflate their stats (i.e., step 1 pass rates, residency placements etc) on their websites and info seminar. When in doubt, do consult with local physicians who might have attended a caribbean school or even better if you know someone on the islands (i.e., relatives, friends, local physicians etc) where the school is located - they are probably the best source to give you some inside scoop/realistic info about the caribbean school - especially the scam schools or the non big 4 like AUA, MUA etc.

SGU has a 67 percent match. This doesn't take into account most going into primary care and dead end prelim spots. It doesn't factor in large attrition rates and residency placements in bad areas in weak programs. It also seems to be trending worse unfortunately.

So an app with step 1 score of 260 in a school like SGU will still be filtered?

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

So an app with step 1 score of 260 in a school like SGU will still be filtered?

By a lot of places yes. Should be able to get something but getting a 260 is very tough. Everyone has a filter for carribean graduates and ton use them. A 260 at a DO school and you can get any specialty.

 

[bedevilled ben]

SGU has a 67 percent match. This doesn't take into account most going into primary care and dead end prelim spots. It doesn't factor in large attrition rates and residency placements in bad areas in weak programs. It also seems to be trending worse unfortunately.

I actually agree with your sentiments that the Caribbean is a bad choice for most students, but the 67% match rate is based off of first-choice match data, meaning that 67% of SGU students get their first-choice match. It doesn't mean that the remaining 33% don't match at all. Another non-trivial percentage get their 2nd or 3rd choice residency match (we know this data ahead of time, so the vast majority of students pick a backup residency), a few more percent get residencies outside of the Match, and a few never pursue their US applications because they get a Canadian spot via CaRMS. The exact actual residency match rate isn't known to my knowledge, but estimates put it at closer to 85-90% of students.

As you mention, however, that doesn't incorporate the attrition rates in MS1 or MS2, and it doesn't tell you anything about the quality of the program into which the applicants match. I agree also that data indicate the match stats are trending downward for Caribbean students.

So an app with step 1 score of 260 in a school like SGU will still be filtered?

Step 1 scores aren't the end-all, be-all of applications. However, a 260-scoring SGU applicant with commensurate Step 2 scores and LoRs, should almost certainly be able to get a residency somewhere in something, assuming they're not a blithering idiot otherwise. That being said, if you're already a student from UWI, chances are good that you will not be able to transfer to a US-based curriculum school like SGU without at least repeating 3rd year. So I'm not sure what your exact question is. UWI is a good school, but it caters to doctors that want to stay in the Caribbean to practice. Schools like SGU and Ross cater to US-based medical education. A US-based residency program is much more likely to have heard of SGU rather than UWI. If they're unaware of UWI's curriculum, there is a very good chance that they will see that you're from an unknown Caribbean school and dismiss your application outright. I think there is an argument to be made that a 240 Step 1 applicant from SGU would have an easier time getting a residency than a 260 Step 1 applicant from UWI.

 

[Kewell35]

I actually agree with your sentiments that the Caribbean is a bad choice for most students, but the 67% match rate is based off of first-choice match data, meaning that 67% of SGU students get their first-choice match. It doesn't mean that the remaining 33% don't match at all. Another non-trivial percentage get their 2nd or 3rd choice residency match (we know this data ahead of time, so the vast majority of students pick a backup residency), a few more percent get residencies outside of the Match, and a few never pursue their US applications because they get a Canadian spot via CaRMS. The exact actual residency match rate isn't known to my knowledge, but estimates put it at closer to 85-90% of students.

As you mention, however, that doesn't incorporate the attrition rates in MS1 or MS2, and it doesn't tell you anything about the quality of the program into which the applicants match. I agree also that data indicate the match stats are trending downward for Caribbean students.



Step 1 scores aren't the end-all, be-all of applications. However, a 260-scoring SGU applicant with commensurate Step 2 scores and LoRs, should almost certainly be able to get a residency somewhere in something, assuming they're not a blithering idiot otherwise. That being said, if you're already a student from UWI, chances are good that you will not be able to transfer to a US-based curriculum school like SGU without at least repeating 3rd year. So I'm not sure what your exact question is. UWI is a good school, but it caters to doctors that want to stay in the Caribbean to practice. Schools like SGU and Ross cater to US-based medical education. A US-based residency program is much more likely to have heard of SGU rather than UWI. If they're unaware of UWI's curriculum, there is a very good chance that they will see that you're from an unknown Caribbean school and dismiss your application outright. I think there is an argument to be made that a 240 Step 1 applicant from SGU would have an easier time getting a residency than a 260 Step 1 applicant from UWI.

Thank you for your advice. I am from the caribbean, but I am also a US Citizen and also a UWI student with a step 1 score of 260. I never applied to any US medical schools or any other school for that matter. I am considering transferring to another school (it will have to be offshore) before I am finished so that I can gain USCE to aid me in landing a residency. After contacting SGU, it does seem unlikely SGU will accept me. I believe the other of the top 4 schools may be more willing.

What do you think are the chances of a US Citizen, UWI graduate, with a step 1 score of 260, with honors in approximately half of their clerkships/rotations have of gaining a residency? I cannot find any statistics on UWI graduates gaining residencies but I know of several UWI students gaining residencies at Mayo Clinic and University of Florida. Do you think transferring to another school in the top 3/4 would make sense? I would have to write the MCAT (as UWI does not require it) and also may have to repeat the rotations. Do you think it is worth it? I appreciate your time and knowledge.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Thank you for your advice. I am from the caribbean, but I am also a US Citizen and also a UWI student with a step 1 score of 260. I never applied to any US medical schools or any other school for that matter. I am considering transferring to another school (it will have to be offshore) before I am finished so that I can gain USCE to aid me in landing a residency. After contacting SGU, it does seem unlikely SGU will accept me. I believe the other of the top 4 schools may be more willing.

What do you think are the chances of a US Citizen, UWI graduate, with a step 1 score of 260, with honors in approximately half of their clerkships/rotations have of gaining a residency? I cannot find any statistics on UWI graduates gaining residencies but I know of several UWI students gaining residencies at Mayo Clinic and University of Florida. Do you think transferring to another school in the top 3/4 would make sense? I would have to write the MCAT (as UWI does not require it) and also may have to repeat the rotations. Do you think it is worth it? I appreciate your time and knowledge.

Why wouldn't you stay in the carribean if your from there?

I actually agree with your sentiments that the Caribbean is a bad choice for most students, but the 67% match rate is based off of first-choice match data, meaning that 67% of SGU students get their first-choice match. It doesn't mean that the remaining 33% don't match at all. Another non-trivial percentage get their 2nd or 3rd choice residency match (we know this data ahead of time, so the vast majority of students pick a backup residency), a few more percent get residencies outside of the Match, and a few never pursue their US applications because they get a Canadian spot via CaRMS. The exact actual residency match rate isn't known to my knowledge, but estimates put it at closer to 85-90% of students.

As you mention, however, that doesn't incorporate the attrition rates in MS1 or MS2, and it doesn't tell you anything about the quality of the program into which the applicants match. I agree also that data indicate the match stats are trending downward for Caribbean students.



Step 1 scores aren't the end-all, be-all of applications. However, a 260-scoring SGU applicant with commensurate Step 2 scores and LoRs, should almost certainly be able to get a residency somewhere in something, assuming they're not a blithering idiot otherwise. That being said, if you're already a student from UWI, chances are good that you will not be able to transfer to a US-based curriculum school like SGU without at least repeating 3rd year. So I'm not sure what your exact question is. UWI is a good school, but it caters to doctors that want to stay in the Caribbean to practice. Schools like SGU and Ross cater to US-based medical education. A US-based residency program is much more likely to have heard of SGU rather than UWI. If they're unaware of UWI's curriculum, there is a very good chance that they will see that you're from an unknown Caribbean school and dismiss your application outright. I think there is an argument to be made that a 240 Step 1 applicant from SGU would have an easier time getting a residency than a 260 Step 1 applicant from UWI.

Numbers I'm referencing isn't first choice. Its total.

 

[Kewell35]

Why wouldn't you stay in the carribean if your from there?


Numbers I'm referencing isn't first choice. Its total.

I do not want to stay because the education (specialty) is light years apart from that in the Caribbean. I would not have such opportunities here. I also have family in the states.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I do not want to stay because the education (specialty) is light years apart from that in the Caribbean. I would not have such opportunities here. I also have family in the states.

@gyngyn @SouthernSurgeon

Thoughts on a carribean grad with a 260 step 1. From the carribean and a US citizen goes to a medical school for carribean not america. Wants residency in USA.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

So an app with step 1 score of 260 in a school like SGU will still be filtered?

Do you actually have a 260?

 

[gyngyn]

@gyngyn @SouthernSurgeon

Thoughts on a carribean grad with a 260 step 1. From the carribean and a US citizen goes to a medical school for carribean not america. Wants residency in USA.

Programs that do not consider Caribbean grads will not care what the USMLE scores are.
I would be very surprised if any but the most seriously hard to fill residency would interview him, without regard to USMLE score.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Thank you for your advice. I am from the caribbean, but I am also a US Citizen and also a UWI student with a step 1 score of 260. I never applied to any US medical schools or any other school for that matter. I am considering transferring to another school (it will have to be offshore) before I am finished so that I can gain USCE to aid me in landing a residency. After contacting SGU, it does seem unlikely SGU will accept me. I believe the other of the top 4 schools may be more willing.

What do you think are the chances of a US Citizen, UWI graduate, with a step 1 score of 260, with honors in approximately half of their clerkships/rotations have of gaining a residency? I cannot find any statistics on UWI graduates gaining residencies but I know of several UWI students gaining residencies at Mayo Clinic and University of Florida. Do you think transferring to another school in the top 3/4 would make sense? I would have to write the MCAT (as UWI does not require it) and also may have to repeat the rotations. Do you think it is worth it? I appreciate your time and knowledge.

KEWEL I'm sorry but it seems you are out of luck. Your best bet is probably to stay in the carribean being that your school isn't accredited in the USA.

Programs that do not consider Caribbean grads will not care what the USMLE scores are.
I would be very surprised if any but the most seriously hard to fill residency would interview him, without regard to USMLE score.

Thanks gyngyn I was wondering if he would be viewed similarly to a graduate from a good Indian school or something. I suspected that was the answer but its sad nonetheless.

 

[bedevilled ben]

Numbers I'm referencing isn't first choice. Its total.

Unless you have access to unpublished data, then no, it's not. I suspect you're referring to the chart on page 22 of the ECFMG Charting Outcomes in the Match data released last year. If you read the methods you'll note:

For purposes of this report, match success is defined as a match to the specialty of the applicant’s first-ranked program because that is assumed to be the specialty of choice.

Lack of reliable data is half of the difficulty in gauging the success or failure of Caribbean graduates. The schools are notoriously tight-lipped with their numbers.

What do you think are the chances of a US Citizen, UWI graduate, with a step 1 score of 260, with honors in approximately half of their clerkships/rotations have of gaining a residency? I cannot find any statistics on UWI graduates gaining residencies but I know of several UWI students gaining residencies at Mayo Clinic and University of Florida. Do you think transferring to another school in the top 3/4 would make sense? I would have to write the MCAT (as UWI does not require it) and also may have to repeat the rotations. Do you think it is worth it? I appreciate your time and knowledge.

I wish I had better advice to give, but I'm not familiar at all with UWI's statistics for residencies, etc. I do not think transferring into another US-based Caribbean school would be the best move overall for your career, but if you're hell-bent on practicing in the US I'm not really sure which will ultimately get you there most painlessly. You may want to inquire with UWI and see if you can get in touch with other graduates who have managed to get residencies in the US.

 

[maygog]

Actually I do. The undermining is quite unbelievable. I went to UWI because I am from the Caribbean and it is not considered an offshore school and I would like to practice in the states. Many students here get in the higher percentiles and go abroad. I don't see the relevance to your credentials. But thanks for the advice.

Kewell35 - I personally know UWI since AUA is located in Antigua and many Antiguans choose to attend UWI for medicine. Since UWI follows the British Syllabus, I know most go on to practice in England, Ireland and the Common Wealth. Most if not ALL are trained and are on the same par as students from English schools. If UWI students had no problem practicing in the UK, I wouldn't think there would be any problems in the States. British education system and Medical Education is far far SUPERIOR than American.

 

[maygog]

KEWEL I'm sorry but it seems you are out of luck. Your best bet is probably to stay in the carribean being that your school isn't accredited in the USA.



Thanks gyngyn I was wondering if he would be viewed similarly to a graduate from a good Indian school or something. I suspected that was the answer but its sad nonetheless.

Students graduating from English/common wealth Medical Schools have NO problems with the USMLE Step 1. Only US students/Caribbean students find STEP 1 as a hurdle/obstacle where as English students HAVE to face testing milestones/hurdles through out their education career - standardized/competitive examinations taken from Grade 6/7. For them USMLE step 1, Rotations in the States etc are just add ons. I don't think being accredited by the states is an issue. There are many Students who have graduated from English/commonwealth medical schools and have secured prestigious residencies at TOP TIER US schools.

Check out this linkedin profile of a Commonwealth graduate who excelled.

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/sugganth-daniel/27/99/240

 

[NotAProgDirector]

You very well may be able to get a US residency spot from UWI. Obviously you have a great Step 1 score, and you'd want to repeat that on Step 2. The key is US rotations in your final year. If UWI will allow you to do US based rotations, you should do 2-3 (if possible) including at least one SubI. You'll probably have to arrange this all yourself. Remember that wherever you do your SubI, you'll get great exposure and that might help you match there so choose wisely -- rotate at a Harvard hospital and you'll get a good letter but still (somewhat) unlikely to match, but if you're at a lower tier university program you might have a better shot.

I agree that the best thing to do is ask prior grads how they did it.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Unless you have access to unpublished data, then no, it's not. I suspect you're referring to the chart on page 22 of the ECFMG Charting Outcomes in the Match data released last year. If you read the methods you'll note:

For purposes of this report, match success is defined as a match to the specialty of the applicant’s first-ranked program because that is assumed to be the specialty of choice.

Lack of reliable data is half of the difficulty in gauging the success or failure of Caribbean graduates. The schools are notoriously tight-lipped with their numbers.



I wish I had better advice to give, but I'm not familiar at all with UWI's statistics for residencies, etc. I do not think transferring into another US-based Caribbean school would be the best move overall for your career, but if you're hell-bent on practicing in the US I'm not really sure which will ultimately get you there most painlessly. You may want to inquire with UWI and see if you can get in touch with other graduates who have managed to get residencies in the US.

Why do you think they are so secretive?

You said first choice match its referencing first choice specialty not program. If you do match its most likely in a bad program in an area you don't want to be. Yikes! This doesn't include the high attrition and large amount of dead end prelimary spots also. Huge problems. But clearly largeamounts of people aren't matching which would be shut down if in the USA.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Students graduating from English/common wealth Medical Schools have NO problems with the USMLE Step 1. Only US students/Caribbean students find STEP 1 as a hurdle/obstacle where as English students HAVE to face testing milestones/hurdles through out their education career - standardized/competitive examinations taken from Grade 6/7. For them USMLE step 1, Rotations in the States etc are just add ons. I don't think being accredited by the states is an issue. There are many Students who have graduated from English/commonwealth medical schools and have secured prestigious residencies at TOP TIER US schools.

Check out this linkedin profile of a Commonwealth graduate who excelled.

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/sugganth-daniel/27/99/240

Not talking about English students talking about carribean schools not accredited in the USA and trying to gain residency in the USA

 

[the argus]

Why do you think they are so secretive?

You said first choice match its referencing first choice specialty not program. If you do match its most likely in a bad program in an area you don't want to be. Yikes! This doesn't include the high attrition and large amount of dead end prelimary spots also. Huge problems. But clearly largeamounts of people aren't matching which would be shut down if in the USA.

This is what makes SDN such a malignant forum. Dude, you were wrong, just admit it and move on. You tried to use data to support your opinion, but it turns out you didn't take the time to make sure you were correctly using the data.

No one has ever argued that caribbean schools don't have significant attrition rates, are basically limited to primary care residencies, and often have to choose matching over preferred geographic location. You are not contributing anything new.

bedevilled ben was very polite and wrote a thoughtful response, not to mention he also admitted that caribbean medical education has a lot of problems.

But >2,000 people get residency positions from caribbean schools every year, so it's not as bad of an option as people on this forum make it out to be.

You obviously don't really know what you are talking about, so there's really no reason you have to comment on this topic.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

This is what makes SDN such a malignant forum. Dude, you were wrong, just admit it and move on. You tried to use data to support your opinion, but it turns out you didn't take the time to make sure you were correctly using the data.

No one has ever argued that caribbean schools don't have significant attrition rates, are basically limited to primary care residencies, and often have to choose matching over preferred geographic location. You are not contributing anything new.

bedevilled ben was very polite and wrote a thoughtful response, not to mention he also admitted that caribbean medical education has a lot of problems.

But >2,000 people get residency positions from caribbean schools every year, so it's not as bad of an option as people on this forum make it out to be.

You obviously don't really know what you are talking about, so there's really no reason you have to comment on this topic.

I wasn't wrong bedvilled said it was in reference to first choice match not first choice speciality which is how the data is collected. There is a difference between first choice program and specality. I was trying to show that your medical school matters (point of the thread) and did that.

Amount of matches is a meaningless stat. The carribean schools are without a doubt as bad as some people make it seem.

I have also been polite. I also pointed out the numbers with the carribean school with the best numbers that is also wildy expensive.

If I really wanted to use data to support my argument that the school you attend matters I could have posted this also:"This year only 53 percent of United States citizens who attended foreign medical schools (most of them in the Caribbean) were placed through the National Resident Matching Program, compared with 94 percent of students from U.S. schools."

Instead I cherry picked the better data for you guys.

Also more numbers: "Of students who entered St. George’s program in fall 2009, 10 percent dropped out, 1 percent transferred and 65 percent made it to graduation in four years. Twenty percent more took five years and an additional 4 percent took six or more years." Another 6% get no residency after that haircut and the ones that do are bad (prelim as i pointed out). This is also the best school (and most expensive)! The others don't even come close to these numbers.

 

[the argus]

I wasn't wrong bedvilled said it was in reference to first choice match not first choice speciality which is how the data is collected. There is a difference between first choice program and specality. I was trying to show that your medical school matters (point of the thread) and did that.

Amount of matches is a meaningless stat. The carribean schools are without a doubt as bad as some people make it seem.

I have also been polite. I also pointed out the numbers with the carribean school with the best numbers that is also wildy expensive.

If I really wanted to use data to support my argument that the school you attend matters I could have posted this also:"This year only 53 percent of United States citizens who attended foreign medical schools (most of them in the Caribbean) were placed through the National Resident Matching Program, compared with 94 percent of students from U.S. schools."

Instead I cherry picked the better data for you guys.

You are still doing it. You were absolutely wrong when you stated,

SGU has a 67 percent match. This doesn't take into account most going into primary care and dead end prelim spots. It doesn't factor in large attrition rates and residency placements in bad areas in weak programs. It also seems to be trending worse unfortunately.

Just because bedevilled ben didn't correctly articulate why you were wrong doesn't mean that you were right in there first place. You weren't, plain and simple.

I'm sure you are a nice person, I don't mean to be rude.

But just saying, "The carribean schools are without a doubt as bad as some people make it seem," is doing a disservice to a topic that actually deserves a serious, fact-driven discussion

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

You are still doing it. You were absolutely wrong when you stated,



Just because bedevilled ben didn't correctly articulate why you were wrong doesn't mean that you were right in there first place. You weren't, plain and simple.

I stand by that post I wasn't wrong. 67% match at SGU. I quite simply use the definition of matching that is given by the NRMP. I wasn't wrong his incorrect attriculation made him wrong.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

You are still doing it. You were absolutely wrong when you stated,



Just because bedevilled ben didn't correctly articulate why you were wrong doesn't mean that you were right in there first place. You weren't, plain and simple.

I'm sure you are a nice person, I don't mean to be rude.

But just saying, "The carribean schools are without a doubt as bad as some people make it seem," is doing a disservice to a topic that actually deserves a serious, fact-driven discussion

I edited my otherpost including the most accurate facts I can find to aid the discussion. I agree we should use facts but the facts aren't pretty and are getting worse with the opening up of american school.

 

[the argus]

I stand by that post I wasn't wrong. 67% match at SGU. I quite simply use the definition of matching that is given by the NRMP. I wasn't wrong his incorrect attriculation made him wrong.

The definition of matching that is used in that report is not the definition of matching that is commonly accepted.

If you wanna use that definition of matching, then only 77% of US MDs matched that applied to orthopedic surgery last year (648/838). So are you willing to now say that any US MD that applies to ortho is an idiot because their chances of matching are low?

Give me a break.

 

[Kewell35]

Do you actually have a 260?

Yes.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

The definition of matching that is used in that report is not the definition of matching that is commonly accepted.

If you wanna use that definition of matching, then only 77% of US MDs matched that applied to orthopedic surgery last year (648/838). So are you willing to now say that any US MD that applies to ortho is an idiot because their chances of matching are low?

Give me a break.

77% of US MDs matched into ortho that is without a doubt true. If the carribean was more transparent with the numbers I could give the more common definition but they don't. Also I attempted to give you guys the numbers you were requesting in terms of not receiving any residency. I also gave those numbers for the best and most expensive school.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Yes.

Congrats on your success on the test. Btw I tagged gyngyn since he is a practicing physician, very knowledgeable, and involved in medical education. You should read his post.

 

[Kewell35]

Programs that do not consider Caribbean grads will not care what the USMLE scores are.
I would be very surprised if any but the most seriously hard to fill residency would interview him, without regard to USMLE score.

Thanks for your help. I thought the same thing but UWI graduates fill residencies in Mayo Clinic and at the University of Florida http://hscj.ufl.edu/medicine/residency/alumni.aspx .Would such residencies be hard to fill?

 

[gyngyn]

Thanks for your help. I thought the same thing but UWI graduates fill residencies in Mayo Clinic and at the University of Florida http://hscj.ufl.edu/medicine/residency/alumni.aspx .Would such residencies be hard to fill?

Getting a residency of any kind in the US would be an outlier.

 

[the argus]

If the carribean was more transparent with the numbers I could give the more common definition but they don't.

This is exactly my point. No one on this forum really knows what they numbers are, so making statements about how bad an idea it is to go to the caribbean is either based on nothing, or at best limited data that is impossible to reliably decipher.

Again, I am not saying that going to the caribbean is a great option and everyone should do it, far from it. And as a recent graduate of Ross, I can actually speak on this from experience. There are significant attrition rates and limited options for residency specialty and geographic location. I saw this first hand.

That said, it is absolutely a reasonable option for many people. >2,000 people a year match into US residency positions from caribbean schools.

 

[Goro]

Poor quality residency programs, and not their first choices either. Given the numbers who matriculate, they're hardly reasonable.

That said, it is absolutely a reasonable option for many people. >2,000 people a year match into US residency positions from caribbean schools.

 

[the argus]

Poor quality residency programs, and not their first choices either. Given the numbers who matriculate, they're hardly reasonable.

That said, it is absolutely a reasonable option for many people. >2,000 people a year match into US residency positions from caribbean schools.

Jesus, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

You don't know the number of people who matriculate. Plain and simple, you don't know.

And quality of residency program is a moot point. Completing a US residency program allows you to be a licensed physician in the US, regardless of the perceived quality of the program. If you want to include quality in this discussion, you could easily say that 50% of US MDs don't match into a quality residency depending on what your arbitrary quality cut-off point is.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

This is exactly my point. No one on this forum really knows what they numbers are, so making statements about how bad an idea it is to go to the caribbean is either based on nothing, or at best limited data that is impossible to reliably decipher.

Again, I am not saying that going to the caribbean is a great option and everyone should do it, far from it. And as a recent graduate of Ross, I can actually speak on this from experience. There are significant attrition rates and limited options for residency specialty and geographic location. I saw this first hand.

That said, it is absolutely a reasonable option for many people. >2,000 people a year match into US residency positions from caribbean schools.

So just because the carribean hides numbers we shouldn't judge the schools? That's a bad idea. We got to use the numbers we have to make an assessment.

The fact that over 2000 match is a bad stat. The fact that almost half who go to the carribean don't get ANY residency and are burdened with debt is a much better stat.

 

[the argus]

The fact that over 2000 match is a bad stat. The fact that almost half who go to the carribean don't get ANY residency and are burdened with debt is a much better stat.

That's not a stat, it's an assumption. You have no idea that "almost half who go to the carribean don't get ANY residency."

And you can judge the schools all you want, just don't judge the ability of their students to match to a US residency

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Jesus, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

You don't know the number of people who matriculate. Plain and simple, you don't know.

And quality of residency program is a moot point. Completing a US residency program allows you to be a licensed physician in the US, regardless of the perceived quality of the program.

I feel like taking crazy pills talking to you. You want to use facts but ignore them at the same time.

So you are presenting this as a reasonable option? From NY times
"This year only 53 percent of United States citizens who attended foreign medical schools (most of them in the Caribbean) were placed through the National Resident Matching Program, compared with 94 percent of students from U.S. schools."

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

That's not a stat, it's an assumption. You have no idea that "almost half who go to the carribean don't get ANY residency."

And you can judge the schools all you want, just don't judge the ability of their students to match to a US residency

I actually do know this. Look at the quote from above sourced from the NY times.

 

[the argus]

I feel like taking crazy pills talking to you. You want to use facts but ignore them at the same time.

So you are presenting this as a reasonable option?
"This year only 53 percent of United States citizens who attended foreign medical schools (most of them in the Caribbean) were placed through the National Resident Matching Program, compared with 94 percent of students from U.S. schools."

As I've discussed in other threads, that 53% is misleading. If you look further into the data, the mean time since graduation for the unmatched cohort of US-IMGs is 5.7 years. This means that the majority of US-IMGs that don't match aren't "fresh" graduates, they have been out of school for an average of 6 years.

There is absolutely a small cohort of caribbean grads who manage to graduate from school but are so bad that they can't get a residency position. Those people continue to apply every year, so the number builds up and actually becomes substantial.

The first-year match rate (i.e. people who have recently graduated and are entering the match for the first time) is much higher than 53%. For Ross last year it was 86% (that number came from the dean of Ross, Joseph Flaherty, who was previously the dean of the University of Illinois College of Medicine. I take him at his word that that number is accurate).

If you want to include all the previous year's graduates that are still applying for the match to discuss yearly match rates, then you also have to include all the people from those previous years who did match.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

As I've discussed in other threads, that 53% is misleading. If you look further into the data, the mean time since graduation for the unmatched cohort of US-IMGs is 5.7 years. This means that the majority of US-IMGs that don't match aren't "fresh" graduates, they have been out of school for an average of 6 years.

There is absolutely a small cohort of caribbean grads who manage to graduate from school but are so bad that they can't get a residency position. Those people continue to apply every year, so the number builds up and actually becomes substantial.

The first-year match rate (i.e. people who have recently graduated and are entering the match for the first time) is much higher than 53%. For Ross last year it was 86% (that number came from the dean of Ross, Joseph Flaherty, who was previously the dean of the University of Illinois College of Medicine. I take him at his word that that number is accurate).

If you want to include all the previous year's graduates that are still applying for the match to discuss yearly match rates, then you also have to include all the people from those previous years who did match.

About 20% at Ross don't match and 40-50% drop out

http://www.tampabay.com/news/health/medicine/article1061189.ece

http://www.medicalschoolsuccess.com/top-caribbean-medical-schools/

Also the data isn't misleading whatsoever. The number I'm referencing is from here:http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/education/edlife/second-chance-med-school.html

Its very clear

 

[the argus]

About 20% at Ross don't match and 40-50% drop out

http://www.tampabay.com/news/health/medicine/article1061189.ece

http://www.medicalschoolsuccess.com/top-caribbean-medical-schools/

Also the data isn't misleading whatsoever. The number I'm referencing is from here:http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/education/edlife/second-chance-med-school.html

Its very clear

Jesus man, you can't be serious.

1. Your 40-50% drop out rate comes from http://www.medicalschoolsuccess.com/top-caribbean-medical-schools/. This is some random website, who fully admits at the bottom of the page that, "Information about each school’s drop-out rate and class size was obtained from an AUC student’s blog."

2. this article, http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/education/edlife/second-chance-med-school.html, shows that the 53% they are referencing comes from the NRMP data reports. I just explained to you why that 53% is not representative of the yearly, first-time match rates.

I'm trying to be patient here, am I getting punked?

EDIT: that 20% unmatched rate is probably relatively accurate. I have no problem with that

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Jesus man, you can't be serious.

1. Your 40-50% drop out rate comes from http://www.medicalschoolsuccess.com/top-caribbean-medical-schools/. This is some random website, who fully admits at the bottom of the page that, "Information about each school’s drop-out rate and class size was obtained from an AUC student’s blog."

2. this article, http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/education/edlife/second-chance-med-school.html, shows that the 53% they are referencing comes from the NRMP data reports. I just explained to you why that 53% is not representative of the yearly, first-time match rates.

I'm trying to be patient here, am I getting punked?

OK this is from Tampa Bay .com a reliable source. You want facts and figures here they are. They are a couple years old but they are most likely similar to what they are now or worse due to US medical school expansion. Only difference is tuition is much higher. If you think this is reasonable you are a mad man.

Ross University School of Medicine

For-profit, foreign medical school in Dominica (also has sister veterinary school in St. Kitts)

Founded: 1978

Owner: DeVry Inc. (acquired in 2003 for $310 million)

Enrollment: about 3,500

Student profile: 56 percent male, most U.S. residents, average age 27 (two years older than U.S. medical students)

Tuition: More than $30,000 per year

Percent of revenue from federal student loans: 81 percent

Four-year graduation rate: 30.6 percent

Six-year graduation rate: 66 percent

Percent of graduates who secure residency training: 80 percent (2006-07)

http://www.tampabay.com/news/health/medicine/article1061189.ece

Also I'm not sure why it matters WHEN they graduated.

 

[the argus]

I'm sorry, I can no longer take anything you say seriously.

You literally just tried to prove your point by referencing statistics that originated from some random dude's blog. You obviously not only have no idea what you are talking about, but you also have no ability to discern fact from fiction. You are way more interested in being right than you are about actually finding the truth in the matter.

Best of luck in your medical career.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I'm sorry, I can no longer take anything you say seriously.

You literally just tried to prove your point by referencing statistics that originated from some random dude's blog. You obviously not only have no idea what you are talking about, but you also have no ability to discern fact from fiction. You are way more interested in being right than you are about actually finding the truth in the matter.

Best of luck in your medical career.

I'm sorry you don't like what the numbers amount to. Clearly your poor desicion making is what led you to the carribean in the first place. This is sad because it is still evident and is a major reason resendencies don't like people from the carribean (I got this is from a gyngyn post). I have no interest on who is right rather then what is right. If you are unhappy with my first source I posted another one. The numbers are as clear as day. My friends who are at Ross right now have been struggling and saldy its no surprise based on the numbers.