Does the Medical School Matter?

[Kewell35]

Getting a residency of any kind in the US would be an outlier.

Thanks for your honest advice. It is much appreciated. I am from the Caribbean and I never applied to any other medical schools. I am honestly now considering writing the MCAT and applying to a U.S medical school and repeating medical school. It's that bad. When I contacted a UWI graduate that got placed in Florida, she stated she got in with just a Step 1 Score of 247, no USCE and no US LoR. I find that unbelievable.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Thanks for your honest advice. It is much appreciated. I am from the Caribbean and I never applied to any other medical schools. I am honestly now considering writing the MCAT and applying to a U.S medical school and repeating medical school. It's that bad. When I contacted a UWI graduate that got placed in Florida, she stated she got in with just a Step 1 Score of 247, no USCE and no US LoR. I find that unbelievable.

@Goro says US schools generally don't accept applicants who are coming from the carribean. I'm sorry

 

[Kewell35]

@Goro says US schools generally don't accept applicants who are coming from the carribean. I'm sorry

No I meant not as a transfer applicant but as a new applicant with a degree. I am a US citizen.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

No I meant not as a transfer applicant but as a new applicant with a degree. I am a US citizen.

Yes I understand that. @SkipJunior couldn't get a residency in the USA after graduating from a carribean school and is trying to redo medical school in the US. He is having trouble getting in. I'm sure @Goro will be here soon and advise you. He works in in admissions for a US medical school. Im affaird with what he has to say though on how you should proceed.

 

[Kewell35]

Yes I understand that. @SkipJunior couldn't get a residency in the USA after graduating from a carribean school and us trying to redo medical school in the US. He is having trouble getting in. I'm sure @Goro will be here soon and advise you. He works in in admissions for a US medical school. Im affaird with what he has to say though on how you should proceed.

Thanks a lot for the help.

 

[Kewell35]

I'm sorry, I can no longer take anything you say seriously.

You literally just tried to prove your point by referencing statistics that originated from some random dude's blog. You obviously not only have no idea what you are talking about, but you also have no ability to discern fact from fiction. You are way more interested in being right than you are about actually finding the truth in the matter.

Best of luck in your medical career.

Hey, I read that you are from Ross. Do you think it would make sense to transfer from a school that does not do clinical rotations in the U.S like UWI to Ross? Would the reputation of Ross be higher and help in attaining a residency?

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Thanks a lot for the help.

Goro should be more helpful but that other guy was rude to him so he might be scared away. @Goro come back!

 

[Kewell35]

Kewell35 - I personally know UWI since AUA is located in Antigua and many Antiguans choose to attend UWI for medicine. Since UWI follows the British Syllabus, I know most go on to practice in England, Ireland and the Common Wealth. Most if not ALL are trained and are on the same par as students from English schools. If UWI students had no problem practicing in the UK, I wouldn't think there would be any problems in the States. British education system and Medical Education is far far SUPERIOR than American.

There are actually problems now as Britain have closed off their doors to us. UWI graduates are having a hard time in getting to practise in Britain. I think it was easier in the past because UWI was a University of London affiliate but sometime around 2003 they stopped recognition and CAAMP was formed so UWI could get legitimate accreditation. Why do you day the British education system is far superior? I'm just curious.

 

[Goro]

If I am following you correctly, I'm taking you as meaning you have an undergraduate degree, not a medical degree from a Carib school. If the latter, you would be DOA at my school.


BUT, if you just have an undergrad degree, you would be treated like any other applicant. If you are Afro-Caribbean, you would probably qualify as an under-represented minority (cue frothing at the mouth, wailing and gnashing of teeth from the hyper-achievers now!)

No I meant not as a transfer applicant but as a new applicant with a degree. I am a US citizen.

Goro is from New York...he doesn't scare easy.
Goro should be more helpful but that other guy was rude to him so he might be scared away. @@Goro come back!

 

[the argus]

Hey, I read that you are from Ross. Do you think it would make sense to transfer from a school that does not do clinical rotations in the U.S like UWI to Ross? Would the reputation of Ross be higher and help in attaining a residency?

I think it is definitely easier to attain a residency coming from Ross/SGU/AUC than other caribbean medical schools. These 3 schools have a long track record of placing students into US residency positions and are well known throughout the country. Be warned though that the vast majority of students from these schools match into less competitive specialties (i.e. internal medicine, family medicine, psychiatry, pediatrics), and they are often not able to "choose" a geographic location as easily as US MD applicants.

That said, with a step 1 score of 260 you will also be competitive for residency positions coming from UWI as long as you get a few months of US clinical experience before you graduate. You will likely be mostly limited to the same specialties/programs that you would be coming from Ross, etc. There are many hospitals around the country that allow foreign visiting students for rotations. Once you have graduated from school though, you are mostly limited to observerships, which are far less useful for getting meaningful LORs.

I don't know how often Ross/SGU/AUC let people transfer in to be honest, but your great step 1 score definitely won't hurt your chances.

 

[Kewell35]

You very well may be able to get a US residency spot from UWI. Obviously you have a great Step 1 score, and you'd want to repeat that on Step 2. The key is US rotations in your final year. If UWI will allow you to do US based rotations, you should do 2-3 (if possible) including at least one SubI. You'll probably have to arrange this all yourself. Remember that wherever you do your SubI, you'll get great exposure and that might help you match there so choose wisely -- rotate at a Harvard hospital and you'll get a good letter but still (somewhat) unlikely to match, but if you're at a lower tier university program you might have a better shot.

I agree that the best thing to do is ask prior grads how they did it.

Thanks mod. Do you think it makes a difference in transferring to a Caribbean 'Offshore' School (like Ross) from UWI so that I gain USCE in my final year? or sticking with UWI and doing the rotations by myself would be sufficient enough? Also, do you know if program directors would consider UWI as having a higher reputation than other schools like SGU/Ross and so on? Or are they all considered Caribbean and filtered?

 

[Kewell35]

If I am following you correctly, I'm taking you as meaning you have an undergraduate degree, not a medical degree from a Carib school. If the latter, you would be DOA at my school.


BUT, if you just have an undergrad degree, you would be treated like any other applicant. If you are Afro-Caribbean, you would probably qualify as an under-represented minority (cue frothing at the mouth, wailing and gnashing of teeth from the hyper-achievers now!)



Goro is from New York...he doesn't scare easy.
Goro should be more helpful but that other guy was rude to him so he might be scared away. @@Goro come back!

I'm actually Indian, so I am not sure if that would be considered an under represented minority? I am almost done with my medical degree here but I also have an undergraduate degree.

 

[the argus]

I am almost done with my medical degree here but I also have an undergraduate degree.

If you are almost done with your degree I am almost certain that Ross/SGU/AUC would not let you transfer in unless you were willing to redo your entire 3rd and 4th year of school (i.e. all clinical rotations)

Thanks mod. Do you think it makes a difference in transferring to a Caribbean 'Offshore' School (like Ross) from UWI so that I gain USCE in my final year? or sticking with UWI and doing the rotations by myself would be sufficient enough? Also, do you know if program directors would consider UWI as having a higher reputation than other schools like SGU/Ross and so on? Or are they all considered Caribbean and filtered?

Since you are US citizen, you will almost surely be lumped in with Ross/SGU graduates.

 

[Kewell35]

I think it is definitely easier to attain a residency coming from Ross/SGU/AUC than other caribbean medical schools. These 3 schools have a long track record of placing students into US residency positions and are well known throughout the country. Be warned though that the vast majority of students from these schools match into less competitive specialties (i.e. internal medicine, family medicine, psychiatry, pediatrics), and they are often not able to "choose" a geographic location as easily as US MD applicants.

That said, with a step 1 score of 260 you will also be competitive for residency positions coming from UWI as long as you get a few months of US clinical experience before you graduate. You will likely be mostly limited to the same specialties/programs that you would be coming from Ross, etc. There are many hospitals around the country that allow foreign visiting students for rotations. Once you have graduated from school though, you are mostly limited to observerships, which are far less useful for getting meaningful LORs.

I don't know how often Ross/SGU/AUC let people transfer in to be honest, but your great step 1 score definitely won't hurt your chances.

Thanks. After contacting the top tier Caribbean schools, the most supportive of the transfer is Ross but they made no guarantees. I'm just thinking if it would make sense to even bother because most likely I would have to repeat the rotations and I would end up in probably the same sort of residency (Lower ranking IM). Would the observerships count though? Because most likely I won't be allowed to do a rotation away.

 

[Kewell35]

If you are almost done with your degree I am almost certain that Ross/SGU/AUC would not let you transfer in unless you were willing to redo your entire 3rd and 4th year of school (i.e. all clinical rotations)

Yes I know, that's why I am wondering if it makes sense. The goal would be to land a residency in the States and I'm thinking of doing everything and anything required after my step 1 score. I'm wondering it would be worth to redo the rotations at Ross etc. just to attain one. I would have to write the MCAT as UWI didn't require it but I don't mind honestly.

 

[the argus]

Thanks. After contacting the top tier Caribbean schools, the most supportive of the transfer is Ross but they made no guarantees. I'm just thinking if it would make sense to even bother because most likely I would have to repeat the rotations and I would end up in probably the same sort of residency (Lower ranking IM). Would the observerships count though? Because most likely I won't be allowed to do a rotation away.

Observerships are better than nothing, but not great. The problem is that since you don't have any malpractice insurance, etc, you are not allowing to actually do anything, all you can do is "observe." It's much harder for an attending to write a meaningful LOR if they didn't actually see you doing anything.

 

[Kewell35]

If you are almost done with your degree I am almost certain that Ross/SGU/AUC would not let you transfer in unless you were willing to redo your entire 3rd and 4th year of school (i.e. all clinical rotations)



Since you are US citizen, you will almost surely be lumped in with Ross/SGU graduates.

OK. So if I applied with Caribbean citizenship as a UWI graduate, it would have been looked upon more favorably?

 

[the argus]

OK. So if I applied with Caribbean citizenship as a UWI graduate, it would have been looked upon more favorably?

I don't know, probably depends on the program

Thanks for your honest advice. It is much appreciated. I am from the Caribbean and I never applied to any other medical schools. I am honestly now considering writing the MCAT and applying to a U.S medical school and repeating medical school. It's that bad. When I contacted a UWI graduate that got placed in Florida, she stated she got in with just a Step 1 Score of 247, no USCE and no US LoR. I find that unbelievable.

And this shouldn't be unbelievable at all. In 2013 (most recent data available), 3219 foreign-born IMGs (i.e. non-US citizens) matched into residency positions, and the mean step 1 score for those matched applicants was 227. (http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf). The lack of USCE/US LOR surely made it more difficult, but it definitely isn't unbelievable or even unlikely.

 

[Kewell35]

I don't know, probably depends on the program



And this shouldn't be unbelievable at all. In 2013 (most recent data available), 3219 foreign-born IMGs (i.e. non-US citizens) matched into residency positions, and the mean step 1 score for those matched applicants was 227. (http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf). The lack of USCE/US LOR surely made it more difficult, but it definitely isn't unbelievable or even unlikely.

I hope you are right. It was just unbelievable going by what I was reading on this forum. Honestly, what would you have done if you were in my position? Stay and apply after writing Step 2 CK? or transfer out?

 

[the argus]

I hope you are right. It was just unbelievable going by what I was reading on this forum. Honestly, what would you have done if you were in my position? Stay and apply after writing Step 2 CK? or transfer out?

What you read in this forum, for the most part, has no basis in reality whatsoever (especially when concerning average step scores)

I don't know what I would do honestly, sorry. Best of luck!!

 

[Goro]

As either a Carib grad, or or current Carib medical student, you would indeed be DOA at my school. You would not be considered URM by any criteria.

You have a huge uphill battle. Your odds of landing a residency, despite what you read from the Carib school shills here, are low, and getting lower.

I'm actually Indian, so I am not sure if that would be considered an under represented minority? I am almost done with my medical degree here but I also have an undergraduate degree.

 

[Mad Jack]

If you are an IMG with great USMLE scores, does the medical school, or where you attended medical school play a significant role in matching?

I know USMLE scores, LOR, USCE matters a lot but I was wondering how much the weight the school carries (Let's say SGU vs UWI or UWI vs. USAT).

Yes. It matters. SGU=Sackler>AUC=SABA>Ross>UK Schools=Australian Schools>all else.

 

[Kewell35]

As either a Carib grad, or or current Carib medical student, you would indeed be DOA at my school. You would not be considered URM by any criteria.

You have a huge uphill battle. Your odds of landing a residency, despite what you read from the Carib school shills here, are low, and getting lower.

What do you mean by DOA? By the way, are you a physician and part of the admissions committee?

 

[Kewell35]

Yes. It matters. SGU=Sackler>AUC=SABA>Ross>UK Schools=Australian Schools>all else.

Thanks for the help. Are these based on statistics? I'm trying to find official statistics so I can make a proper decision but it's hard to find.

 

[Mad Jack]

Thanks for the help. Are these based on statistics? I'm trying to find official statistics so I can make a proper decision but it's hard to find.

http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

Sackler actually has the highest placement rate of any foreign school in the world due to their reciprocity agreement with NY (Sackler students are considered in-state in NY, despite being international students). Each of the Big 4 is the only med school on its given island, so you can look at the match numbers and extrapolate success from there.

 

[Goro]

PhD, Adcom and faculty member at a DO school for > 10 years. My DO colleagues take a dim view of someone who could have gone to a DO school and become a doctor, as opposed to someone who felt the MD was more important.

DOA = dead on arrival. We don't pre-screen, so we would politely interview you and then politely reject you.

What do you mean by DOA? By the way, are you a physician and part of the admissions committee?

 

[Kewell35]

PhD, Adcom and faculty member at a DO school for > 10 years. My DO colleagues take a dim view of someone who could have gone to a DO school and become a doctor, as opposed to someone who felt the MD was more important.

DOA = dead on arrival. We don't pre-screen, so we would politely interview you and then politely reject you.

I agree with you. I am from the Caribbean, I was born here so I did not apply to any medical schools in the U.S and I never knew of the existence of MD/DO so please forgive me. We graduate with an MBBS here. It is only after I got my Step 1 score that I am seriously considering going abroad so I am searching through my options. Thanks for you honest opinion and for the time taken to reply. What do you suggest I do in your opinion, if you were in my shoes? Thank you.

 

[Kewell35]

http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

Sackler actually has the highest placement rate of any foreign school in the world due to their reciprocity agreement with NY (Sackler students are considered in-state in NY, despite being international students). Each of the Big 4 is the only med school on its given island, so you can look at the match numbers and extrapolate success from there.

I meant statistics for the residency placement of each of the schools you listed in the states. Sorry, I am seeing the countries' (like Grenada and Dominica). Are these referring to SGU and Ross respectively?

 

[Mad Jack]

I meant statistics for the residency placement of each of the schools you listed in the states. Unless I'm not searching probably I'm not seeing it in the ECFMG document

 

[Kewell35]

View attachment 190056

OK I see it. I saw it just before you posted. I was looking for the schools. Interesting that the countries in which UWI is located in (Jamaica, Trinidad, Barbados) is not listed at all, probably due to low amount of applications received.

 

[the argus]

PhD, Adcom and faculty member at a DO school for > 10 years. My DO colleagues take a dim view of someone who could have gone to a DO school and become a doctor, as opposed to someone who felt the MD was more important.

As either a Carib grad, or or current Carib medical student, you would indeed be DOA at my school. You would not be considered URM by any criteria.

You have a huge uphill battle. Your odds of landing a residency, despite what you read from the Carib school shills here, are low, and getting lower.

This is great, because you should definitely know where your information is coming from.

Goro repeatedly trashes caribbean medical education, but as a non-physician faculty member at a DO school, I would guess that they personally have little or no experience with caribbean medical students/graduates. He certainly doesn't have any experience with them clinically.

I personally chose to go to the caribbean over DO. It had less to do with the MD being more important, and more to do with the fact that I refused to give my money to a school that endorsed osteopathic manipulative treatment, which is almost universally considered to be pseudoscience.

And finally, he refers to me as a "shill" for caribbean schools. I have no skin in the game anymore. I have graduated, done my residency interviews, and will match in a little more than a week. Go back and read every post I have ever made to this forum (won't be hard, I've only been a member for 1 week), all I have ever done is present the data and explained how it was tabulated. I've also called out people for treating opinion as fact. Never once have I told anyone to go to the caribbean. Every caribbean school could shut down next week, and it would have zero effect on my life.

 

[Kewell35]

This is great, because you should definitely know where your information is coming from.

Goro repeatedly trashes caribbean medical education, but as a non-physician faculty member at a DO school, I would guess that they personally have little or no experience with caribbean medical students/graduates. He certainly doesn't have any experience with them clinically.

I personally chose to go to the caribbean over DO. It had less to do with the MD being more important, and more to do with the fact that I refused to give my money to a school that endorsed osteopathic manipulative treatment, which is almost universally considered to be pseudoscience.

And finally, he refers to me as a "shill" for caribbean schools. I have no skin in the game anymore. I have graduated, done my residency interviews, and will match in a little more than a week. Go back and read every post I have ever made to this forum (won't be hard, I've only been a member for 1 week), all I have ever done is present the data and explained how it was tabulated. Never once have I told anyone to go to the caribbean. Every caribbean school could shut down next week, and it would have zero effect on my life.

I didn't know you graduated from Ross. I thought you were still attending. What kind of USMLE scores from Ross got you all interviews? Congrats on finishing and wish you the best in matching.

 

[the argus]

http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

Sackler actually has the highest placement rate of any foreign school in the world due to their reciprocity agreement with NY (Sackler students are considered in-state in NY, despite being international students). Each of the Big 4 is the only med school on its given island, so you can look at the match numbers and extrapolate success from there.

And remember, these numbers are in no way representative of the first-year match success (i.e. recent grads applying for the first time).

If you look further into the data, the mean time since graduation for the unmatched cohort of US-IMGs is 5.7 years. This means that the majority of US-IMGs that don't match aren't "fresh" graduates, they have been out of school for an average of 6 years.

There is absolutely a small cohort of caribbean grads who manage to graduate from school but are so bad that they can't get a residency position. Those people continue to apply every year, so the number builds up and actually becomes substantial.

If you want to include all the previous year's graduates that are still applying for the match to discuss yearly match rates, then you also have to include all the people from those previous years who did match.

 

[Mad Jack]

And remember, these numbers are in no way representative of the first-year match success (i.e. recent grads applying for the first time).

If you look further into the data, the mean time since graduation for the unmatched cohort of US-IMGs is 5.7 years. This means that the majority of US-IMGs that don't match aren't "fresh" graduates, they have been out of school for an average of 6 years.

There is absolutely a small cohort of caribbean grads who manage to graduate from school but are so bad that they can't get a residency position. Those people continue to apply every year, so the number builds up and actually becomes substantial.

If you want to include all the previous year's graduates that are still applying for the match to discuss yearly match rates, then you also have to include all the people from those previous years who did match.

And then there's all the students that never graduated, or didn't graduate on time, or that scrambled, or... There's a million confounding variables. This chart provides a great estimate of which schools are the best, nothing more.

 

[the argus]

I didn't know you graduated from Ross. I thought you were still attending. What kind of USMLE scores from Ross got you all interviews? Congrats on finishing and wish you the best in matching.

Step 1 ~220, Step 2CK ~250, GPA >3.8.

I applied to ~120 IM programs, received 43 interview invites, and went on 25 interviews. ~10 of those invites were at university programs (low to mid tier), and the rest were at community programs.

There is not a huge residency squeeze going on as some people claim, this exemplified by my 40 interviews invites with an extremely pedestrian step 1 score.

Thanks for the well wishes, I'm super excited to find out where I'm going.

 

[Kewell35]

Step 1 ~220, Step 2CK ~250, GPA >3.8.

I applied to ~120 IM programs, received 43 interview invites, and went on 25 interviews. ~10 of those invites were at university programs (low to mid tier), and the rest were at community programs.

Wow, OK. I would definitely consider transferring if it is possible. I doubt you would get so many interviews if you graduate from UWI. What do you think?

After reading this thread, I felt like it would be a miracle getting an interview at all after graduating from Caribbean school.
One more question, what is the difference between community and university programs? Would you be able to specialize or get a fellowship at a community program?

 

[the argus]

Wow, OK. I would definitely consider transferring if it is possible. I doubt you would get so many interviews if you graduate from UWI. What do you think?

After reading this thread, I felt like it would be a miracle getting an interview at all after graduating from Caribbean school.
One more question, what is the difference between community and university programs? Would you be able to specialize or get a fellowship at a community program?

I don't know about your chances from UWI, all I can tell you is that this was my experience this year. And I can't stress this enough, most of the people on this thread who have strong opinions about caribbean schools really have no experience with them and have no idea what they are talking about.

There are definitely major pitfalls and risks to a caribbean medical education, but it is nowhere near the blackhole you would expect if you only read SDN.

The most basic difference between university and community is that university programs are based at the home hospital for a US medical school, community programs are not. University programs tend to be bigger, with more subspecialty opportunities, but this definitely depends on the institution.

Many (if not most nowadays) community programs have an affiliation with a US medical school. This affiliation can be strong (lots of medical students rotate through the hospital, residents are able to rotate through the main campus hospital, etc) or it can be a weak affiliation that is in name only, it depends on the program.

Community programs/hospitals can run the gamut from basically full service hospitals (many residency programs, trauma center, etc) to pretty minimal hospitals (no cath lab, etc).

You can definitely get fellowships from community hospitals, but again it really depends on what specialty and the reputation (and connections) of your program. Some community hospitals have in-house fellowships in all the major IM subspecialities, some have no fellowships. The chance of matching GI or cardio out of a certain community program may be almost non-existant, but people might easily match ID or renal from that same program. Other community programs have people match to cardio every year. Some community programs send a lot of people to their affiliated university hospital for fellowship.

This is all program specific info that you will get during your residency interviews, and for most people plays a large role in how they construct their rank order list.

 

[the argus]

And then there's all the students that never graduated, or didn't graduate on time, or that scrambled, or... There's a million confounding variables. This chart provides a great estimate of which schools are the best, nothing more.

It provides an estimate, certainly not a great one.

http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

Sackler actually has the highest placement rate of any foreign school in the world due to their reciprocity agreement with NY (Sackler students are considered in-state in NY, despite being international students). Each of the Big 4 is the only med school on its given island, so you can look at the match numbers and extrapolate success from there.

And using that chart to determine "placement rate," is in fact a gross misuse of what that data actually represents. End of story.

 

[Goro]

Go abroad.

I agree with you. I am from the Caribbean, I was born here so I did not apply to any medical schools in the U.S and I never knew of the existence of MD/DO so please forgive me. We graduate with an MBBS here. It is only after I got my Step 1 score that I am seriously considering going abroad so I am searching through my options. Thanks for you honest opinion and for the time taken to reply. What do you suggest I do in your opinion, if you were in my shoes? Thank you.

 

[Kewell35]

Go abroad.

Nevermind we discussed this already. You meant re-do the entire medical school in the U.S right?

 

[Mad Jack]

It provides an estimate, certainly not a great one.



And using that chart to determine "placement rate," is in fact a gross misuse of what that data actually represents. End of story.

I really don't care how much of an oversimplification it is- if there's enough people from prior years still trying to match, that, in and of itself, is highly indicative of a problem. The fact that students aren't matching their specialty of choice when the majority are not vying for super competitive specialties to begin with is also a problem. So I'm going to continue to use the only real data on the topic we've got, because it probably massively overestimates how FMGs will fare in 2019 with the massive increase in US grads.

 

[the argus]

I really don't care how much of an oversimplification it is- if there's enough people from prior years still trying to match, that, in and of itself, is highly indicative of a problem. The fact that students aren't matching their specialty of choice when the majority are not vying for super competitive specialties to begin with is also a problem. So I'm going to continue to use the only real data on the topic we've got, because it probably massively overestimates how FMGs will fare in 2019 with the massive increase in US grads.

Massive increase in US grads huh?
https://www.aamc.org/download/321462/data/factstable4.pdf
http://www.aacom.org/reports-programs-initiatives/aacom-reports/matriculants
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2014.pdf

first year US allopathic matriculants in 2010 (i.e. matched in 2014) - 18,665
first year US allopathic matriculants in 2014 (2018 match) - 20,343, for an increase of 1,678

first year US osteopathic matriculants in 2010 (i.e. matched in 2014) - 5,031
first year US osteopathic matriculants in 2014 (2018 match) - 6,465, for an increase of 1,434

total US enrollment increase from last years match to 2018 will be ~3,112, or ~622/year (3112/5)

number of 1st year positions available through the NRMP in 2010 - 22,809
number of 1st year positions available through the NRMP in 2014 - 26,678, for an increase of 3,869 or ~774/year (3869/5)


so actually the number of positions offered through the NRMP is increasing more per year than US MD/DO enrollment is. And this doesn't even take into account that only ~50% of DO students even enter the match. But hey, don't let any objective data in anyway influence your opinion.

And any talk of 2019 is speculation, the matriculation numbers for 2015 don't exist yet.

 

[Mad Jack]

Massive increase in US grads huh?
https://www.aamc.org/download/321462/data/factstable4.pdf
http://www.aacom.org/reports-programs-initiatives/aacom-reports/matriculants
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2014.pdf

first year US allopathic matriculants in 2010 (i.e. matched in 2014) - 18,665
first year US allopathic matriculants in 2014 (2018 match) - 20,343, for an increase of 1,678

first year US osteopathic matriculants in 2010 (i.e. matched in 2014) - 5,031
first year US osteopathic matriculants in 2014 (2018 match) - 6,465, for an increase of 1,434

total US enrollment increase from last years match to 2018 will be ~3,112, or ~622/year (3112/5)

number of 1st year positions available through the NRMP in 2010 - 22,809
number of 1st year positions available through the NRMP in 2014 - 26,678, for an increase of 3,869 or ~774/year (3869/5)


so actually the number of positions offered through the NRMP is increasing more per year than US MD/DO enrollment is. And this doesn't even take into account that only ~50% of DO students even enter the match. But hey, don't let any objective data in anyway influence your opinion.

And any talk of 2019 is speculation, the matriculation numbers for 2015 don't exist yet.

Almost all of that increase in positions was because of the all-in policy bringing thousands of prematch positions into the match. The actual number of funded residency positions has only grown at a rate of 0.9%, year-over-year. And 2015 has seen the opening of a few new medical schools that will more than offset those gains (DO schools continue to open faster than Starbucks).

With the merger and talk of a unified match by 2020, all DOs and DO residencies will enter the MD fold in short order. That will add around 2,000 residencies to the NRMP, but also over three and a half thousand additional applicants. The end goal is to completely crowd out foreign grads, which I personally don't agree with, but it is what it is.

This is the second year post all-in, so we'll be able to see whether foreign grads are tensing up or down in the new environment this summer with the new report. I predict slightly worse, but we shall see.

 

[Mad Jack]

GME Data Resource Book 2011-2012 - acgme
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/resultsanddata20121.pdf

To try and get a feel for how many positions existed outside of the match that were added by the all-in policy, I used the last data publicly available and compared the GME Data Resource Book with the Results and Match Data from the 2012 match. There were 24,034 pipeline positions in the Match in 2012, while 26,737 residents began training in pipeline programs that year. That makes for a difference of 2,703. 680 of those positions were military, leaving 2,023 positions outside the match, most of which joined up in 2013 and 2014 due to the announcement of the all-in policy, resulting in an apparent "growth" of GME positions, despite little true increase in overall positions. Hopefully we get a new version of the GME Data Resource Book soon, so we can see what's really going on behind the scenes number-wise. Another big issue that's coming down the pike is that many osteopathic programs will likely close due to an inability to measure up to the quality levels required by the ACGME. This will likely result in a closure of a good number of osteopathic programs once the merger is complete, causing a drop of up to 500 positions on the osteo side, and pushing even more graduates into what were traditionally ACGME residencies.

I'm just happy I'm graduating in 2018, because I have a feeling things are going to get messy soon after...

 

[Goro]

The problem is that I don't think you'll be able to get into a US medical school, MD or DO.

You may just have to give the process a try.

Nevermind we discussed this already. You meant re-do the entire medical school in the U.S right?

 

[Mad Jack]

Took a bit of digging, but I found the actual data:

As you can see, between 2010 and 2014, there was a difference of 903 total residents that entered pipeline programs over a four year span. That indicates a growth rate of just under 226 positions per year.

This also lets us estimate the total number of GME positions that were in the match this year: 27,004+2,414=29,418 positions. There are currently 26,808 first year students between MD and DO, leaving an excess of 2,610 residency positions if things stay flat (which I expect to happen, as the ACA added 400 temporary positions per year (1200 total residents) that lose funding soon, and up to 20% of osteopathic programs are expected to close with the merger, leading to a loss of roughly 900 positions, which should be barely accounted for by GME growth. Given that there were 5,133 US-IMGs and 7,568 IMGs in 2014, that will be fighting over these positions, assuming all US grads match, that would leave IMGs with a 20.54% match rate in a worst case scenario. Now let's calculate a best case scenario- 2% total attrition of US grads, 3% of them failing to match, with GME growth of 1% per year and no programs closing. That's 25,484 US grads matching into 30,612 positions, leaving 5,128 positions available for IMGs and giving them an overall match rate of 40.37%. SGU would fare fine in this scenario, most likely, as would Sackler and AUA, but I predict most everyone else will be strongly boned.

So I guess what it comes down to is that being an IMG is, in a best case scenario, far more dangerous in the future than it is today. It could be much, much worse, but it could be only a little worse. I predict it will fall somewhere in between, but I still would say that the Carib will be the worst decision the majority of people that attend ever make in their lives.

 

[Mad Jack]

Nevermind we discussed this already. You meant re-do the entire medical school in the U.S right?

I think he meant work abroad. Your chances of being accepted into a US med school are slim. You could apply broadly DO- I've known a couple super rare exceptions that got interviews that way, but as I said, they were rare.

 

[Kewell35]

I think he meant work abroad. Your chances of being accepted into a US med school are slim. You could apply broadly DO- I've known a couple super rare exceptions that got interviews that way, but as I said, they were rare.

No, I won't apply as a transfer applicant. I was considering as a new applicant with a undergraduate degree but then I realized he/she was the same person I talked about it to previously.

 

[Mad Jack]

No, I won't apply as a transfer applicant. I was considering as a new applicant with a undergraduate degree but then I realized he/she was the same person I talked about it to previously.

You have already taken the USMLE. Your school will eventually find out about that if you did not disclose it (since you can only take the USMLE once), and realize that you have lied on your application and that you had previously attended a Carib school. This will get you thrown out of school, guaranteed. It will also raise the reddest of flags with PDs, as your board scores will be ancient compared to your graduation date.

 

[Kewell35]

You have already taken the USMLE. Your school will eventually find out about that if you did not disclose it (since you can only take the USMLE once), and realize that you have lied on your application and that you had previously attended a Carib school. This will get you thrown out of school, guaranteed. It will also raise the reddest of flags with PDs, as your board scores will be ancient compared to your graduation date.

Wait, so once you enter a medical school then you can't withdraw from that school, do an undergrad degree, MCAT and apply as a new student in the States at all? Also, I really dislike when people call UWI a Carib school. It's more of Commonwealth school. It does not cater to the American system.