Does the Medical School Matter?

[Mad Jack]

Wait, so once you enter a medical school then you can't withdraw from that school, do an undergrad degree, MCAT and apply as a new student in the States at all? Also, I really dislike when people call UWI a Carib school. It's more of Commonwealth school. It does not cater to the American system.

Where they cater to doesn't really matter, nor does who owns the school. The Dutch own the island of Saba, but we still consider it a Carib school because of its geographic location and whatnot. UWI is also not accredited by the GMC as a school offering a commonwealth PMC, but rather is accredited by the Caribbean Accreditation Authority in Medicine and the Health Professions. This makes the school a Caribbean school in every way.

Now, as to the "get a US degree, do the MCAT, apply as a new student-" that might have been possible, had you both lied about your educational past and had no evidence of that lie. However, you've already taken the boards. You can only pass the boards once, and you've already done so. If you happen to have any loans for school (I don't know your loan situation) that are in any way involved with the US government, then those will also show as evidence that you were a foreign medical student until the end of time. Now, regardless of your merits, and regardless of why you would prefer to go to a US medical school, adcoms will either view you as a failure looking for a second shot or as a person who is prone to making bad decisions because of your history, hence the reason medical schools generally don't consider anyone that voluntarily left a US or foreign medical school to start over. Take me for instance- I'm a DO student. I've looked into applying to MD schools as a fresh student to see what options were available, and the options are basically nonexistent, despite my excellent GPA and MCAT, because schools basically don't consider prior medical students for non-transfer admission. It sucks, but it is what it is.

Your only option if you want to be a physician in the US is to finish up your degree and hope you match. If not, I guess you'll just have to look elsewhere in the world for a place to practice. That's just how it is.

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[Kewell35]

Where they cater to doesn't really matter, nor does who owns the school. The Dutch own the island of Saba, but we still consider it a Carib school because of its geographic location and whatnot. UWI is also not accredited by the GMC as a school offering a commonwealth PMC, but rather is accredited by the Caribbean Accreditation Authority in Medicine and the Health Professions. This makes the school a Caribbean school in every way.

Now, as to the "get a US degree, do the MCAT, apply as a new student-" that might have been possible, had you both lied about your educational past and had no evidence of that lie. However, you've already taken the boards. You can only pass the boards once, and you've already done so. If you happen to have any loans for school (I don't know your loan situation) that are in any way involved with the US government, then those will also show as evidence that you were a foreign medical student until the end of time. Now, regardless of your merits, and regardless of why you would prefer to go to a US medical school, adcoms will either view you as a failure looking for a second shot or as a person who is prone to making bad decisions because of your history, hence the reason medical schools generally don't consider anyone that voluntarily left a US or foreign medical school to start over. Take me for instance- I'm a DO student. I've looked into applying to MD schools as a fresh student to see what options were available, and the options are basically nonexistent, despite my excellent GPA and MCAT, because schools basically don't consider prior medical students for non-transfer admission. It sucks, but it is what it is.

Your only option if you want to be a physician in the US is to finish up your degree and hope you match. If not, I guess you'll just have to look elsewhere in the world for a place to practice. That's just how it is.

Commonwealth doesn't own the school. I mentioned Commonwealth in that the educational system and teaching is engineered to the British system. It does not serve as a hub for the entry of doctors to the American Health Care system like Ross, SGU etc. That's what I meant when I said it should not be called a Carib school. But I guess that's the whole point of starting the thread. People in the U.S aren't even aware of that and I guess these posts answer my original question in questioning its reputation.

UWI was a University of London affiliate for many years and only lost its GMC accreditation after Britain pulled out of recognition of all schools outside o EU 'recently' in its history.

The premise of the post was if I could apply as a new applicant but you understood to mean as a transfer applicant. That's all. Would they see me as a failure if I never applied to any other school and I am from the Caribbean? The only reason the U.S piqued my interest was when I apparently did well in the Step 1. If they see me as a failure without even considering the context of the application then that would be bewildering but if it is so the what can one do?

Can't you just transfer from a D.O school to M.D? or is it really that difficult? (I don't know much about the U.S system so sorry). If your GPA and MCAT was so excellent then how come you applied for a D.O school and not M.D?

I guess you are right though. I would have to hope for the best. I'm just seriously considering the possibility of transferring to an actual offshore school to increase my chances with USCE somehow and see how it goes. Thanks for your help.

 

[Mad Jack]

Commonwealth doesn't own the school. I mentioned Commonwealth in that the educational system and teaching is engineered to the British system. It does not serve as a hub for the entry of doctors to the American Health Care system like Ross, SGU etc. That's what I meant when I said it should not be called a Carib school. But I guess that's the whole point of starting the thread. People in the U.S aren't even aware of that and I guess these posts answer my original question in questioning its reputation.

UWI was a University of London affiliate for many years and only lost its GMC accreditation after Britain pulled out of recognition of all schools outside o EU 'recently' in its history.

The premise of the post was if I could apply as a new applicant but you understood to mean as a transfer applicant. That's all. Would they see me as a failure if I never applied to any other school and I am from the Caribbean? The only reason the U.S piqued my interest was when I apparently did well in the Step 1. If they see me as a failure without even considering the context of the application then that would be bewildering but if it is so the what can one do?

Can't you just transfer from a D.O school to M.D? or is it really that difficult? (I don't know much about the U.S system so sorry). If your GPA and MCAT was so excellent then how come you applied for a D.O school and not M.D?

I guess you are right though. I would have to hope for the best. I'm just seriously considering the possibility of transferring to an actual offshore school to increase my chances with USCE somehow and see how it goes. Thanks for your help.

Only about five schools accept DO-MD transfers, and those are rare events indeed. You basically need to have a dying relative in the area of the target school for consideration, as its only done during 3rd year, and only under extenuating circumstances.

And I wasn't assuming you wanted to be a transfer- I was saying that you will have to disclose that you were formerly a Caribbean student, as a full educational history disclosure is required when applying to medical school. You certify that, to the best of your knowledge, everything is correct. So you have two options: put in the fact you attended a Carib school, in which case your app will generally go right in the garbage, because that's just what happens, because people would rather take a perfect applicant with no red flags than someone with a massive red flag, regardless of circumstances. Or you could neglect to mention it, in which case, when you it came time for the board exams, you'd be outed as having taken Step 1 previously. Since (in this scenario) you lied on your AMCAS application, you will most likely be kicked out and banned from ever attending a US medical school again.

While I feel for your situation, and really wish you the best, I'm just laying it out how it is. Attending any medical school prior to applying as a new applicant to medical school is the reddest of red flags. There is almost nothing worse that could be on your application, whether the school was foreign or domestic. If I tried to apply as a new student to MD schools, I'd be in the same boat. It's just kind of the way things are.

Good luck moving forward. With scores that high, you should match somewhere if you apply broadly enough. Just don't plan on doing like, dermatological plastic neurosurgery or something.

 

[the argus]

Took a bit of digging, but I found the actual data:
View attachment 190060
As you can see, between 2010 and 2014, there was a difference of 903 total residents that entered pipeline programs over a four year span. That indicates a growth rate of just under 226 positions per year.

This also lets us estimate the total number of GME positions that were in the match this year: 27,004+2,414=29,418 positions. There are currently 26,808 first year students between MD and DO, leaving an excess of 2,610 residency positions if things stay flat (which I expect to happen, as the ACA added 400 temporary positions per year (1200 total residents) that lose funding soon, and up to 20% of osteopathic programs are expected to close with the merger, leading to a loss of roughly 900 positions, which should be barely accounted for by GME growth. Given that there were 5,133 US-IMGs and 7,568 IMGs in 2014, that will be fighting over these positions, assuming all US grads match, that would leave IMGs with a 20.54% match rate in a worst case scenario. Now let's calculate a best case scenario- 2% total attrition of US grads, 3% of them failing to match, with GME growth of 1% per year and no programs closing. That's 25,484 US grads matching into 30,612 positions, leaving 5,128 positions available for IMGs and giving them an overall match rate of 40.37%. SGU would fare fine in this scenario, most likely, as would Sackler and AUA, but I predict most everyone else will be strongly boned.

So I guess what it comes down to is that being an IMG is, in a best case scenario, far more dangerous in the future than it is today. It could be much, much worse, but it could be only a little worse. I predict it will fall somewhere in between, but I still would say that the Carib will be the worst decision the majority of people that attend ever make in their lives.

That's some serious work put into this, thanks for basing your opinion in objective numbers, rather than just speculative bull****. (I do think your 2%/3% for US attrition/match failure is a little low, probably more like 5%/5%, but thats pretty minimal)

I totally agree that the potential exists in the next 5 years for the residency placement experience to change dramatically. It could come together in a way that leaves most IMGs (US or otherwise) out in the cold. But it also could not really change at all. It could also end up slightly favoring IMGs. It's all speculative at this point.

This would have been a serious lovefest of a post if you could have just resisted the urge to throw that last sentence in there, but now I am obligated to say that the narrative you believe to be true about caribbean medical education is hogwash.

 

[Mad Jack]

That's some serious work put into this, thanks for basing your opinion in objective numbers, rather than just speculative bull****. (I do think your 2%/3% for US attrition/match failure is a little low, probably more like 5%/5%, but thats pretty minimal)

I totally agree that the potential exists in the next 5 years for the residency placement experience to change dramatically. It could come together in a way that leaves most IMGs (US or otherwise) out in the cold. But it also could not really change at all. It could also end up slightly favoring IMGs. It's all speculative at this point.

This would have been a serious lovefest of a post if you could have just resisted the urge to throw that last sentence in there, but now I am obligated to say that the narrative you believe to be true about caribbean medical education is hogwash.

Between attrition, students that end up in fields that they find undesirable, students that never match, and the students that go to the less reputable schools in the Carib that end up with worthless degrees, I'd bet that more than one in two Carib students walks away with a less than positive experience overall. You went to Ross- what percentage of the class did you lose to attrition? If 17% didn't match, and 33% of the people that did match ended up in fields they'd rather not be in, that right there puts it as a mistake for 1 in 2 grads. And that's excluding attrition, which could substantially bump up the number of people who had a bad med school experience overall.

 

[bedevilled ben]

[post pending]

 

[the argus]

Between attrition, students that end up in fields that they find undesirable, students that never match, and the students that go to the less reputable schools in the Carib that end up with worthless degrees, I'd bet that more than one in two Carib students walks away with a less than positive experience overall. You went to Ross- what percentage of the class did you lose to attrition? If 17% didn't match, and 33% of the people that did match ended up in fields they'd rather not be in, that right there puts it as a mistake for 1 in 2 grads. And that's excluding attrition, which could substantially bump up the number of people who had a bad med school experience overall.

I think your being a little presumptuous. Just because you don't match into your preferred specialty doesn't make going to medical school a mistake.

Would you say that going to medical school was a mistake for the 24% (111/463) of US MDs that failed to match derm last year. Or how about the 23% (190/838) who didn't match into ortho? Of course not.

There you go, presenting wild speculative verbal diarrhea as factual again.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Between attrition, students that end up in fields that they find undesirable, students that never match, and the students that go to the less reputable schools in the Carib that end up with worthless degrees, I'd bet that more than one in two Carib students walks away with a less than positive experience overall. You went to Ross- what percentage of the class did you lose to attrition? If 17% didn't match, and 33% of the people that did match ended up in fields they'd rather not be in, that right there puts it as a mistake for 1 in 2 grads. And that's excluding attrition, which could substantially bump up the number of people who had a bad med school experience overall.

Ross lost about 40% of its students. And only half that graduated did it on time. But argus still thinks its reasonable? Ha.

Thanks for trying to help out mad jack but its hard to have a reasonable discussion with a crazy person that doesn't care about facts.

 

[Mad Jack]

I think your being a little presumptuous. Just because you don't match into your preferred specialty doesn't make going to medical school a mistake.

Would you say that going to medical school was a mistake for the 24% (111/463) of US MDs that failed to match derm last year. Or how about the 23% (190/838) who didn't match into ortho? Of course not.

There you go, presenting wild speculative verbal diarrhea as factual again.

If I end up in FM, medical school will have been a mistake. If I end up in general IM, medical school will also have been a mistake. There are many, many medical students that would agree with that sentiment. The other thing is, many students might have been able to get into DO school if they'd applied or waited a year and redid some coursework but went Carib instead. These people could have likely matched into specialties they prefer, rather than a specialty that will make the rest of their life miserable.

Matching into a **** specialty can make your life suck incredibly bad basically forever, since you've got too much debt to say "**** it, I'll just go do something else." It's no reward for the time and money most of us put into this process, hence "mistake."

 

[Mad Jack]

This is the actual face of every Carib grad that matches FM and community IM on match day after applying to literally anything else.

 

[Kewell35]

This is the actual face of every Carib grad that matches FM and community IM on match day after applying to literally anything else.

Is General Surgery difficult to match as a USIMG?

 

[bedevilled ben]

You said first choice match its referencing first choice specialty not program.

I'm wrong because you misinterpreted what I wrote? I never used the phrase "first-choice program" in either of my posts. In the future I'll be careful to be more clear about that, but that hardly makes me wrong now, especially when my point was that your claim that only 67% of SGU students match was incorrect.

If you do match its most likely in a bad program in an area you don't want to be. Yikes!

Citations needed. Also, SGU residency program placement is viewable on their website from past years. There are literally thousands of graduates in excellent institutions.

This doesn't include the high attrition and large amount of dead end prelimary spots also. Huge problems. But clearly largeamounts of people aren't matching which would be shut down if in the USA.

I'm not arguing the attrition rates, we've been over this already. Shut down how, exactly? SGU's curriculum is held to the same standards as US medical education. They receive federal loan funding from the US govt. If thousands of students were defaulting on $300k loans every year, do you really think the school would continue to receive accreditation?

"This year only 53 percent of United States citizens who attended foreign medical schools (most of them in the Caribbean) were placed through the National Resident Matching Program, compared with 94 percent of students from U.S. schools."

This is a really important point. All Caribbean schools are not created equal. Averaging SGU and Ross into data with Windsor and St. Matthews only muddies the waters. In artificially inflates the bad schools' stats and deflates the reputable schools' stats. It serves no purpose in clarifying the situation, it becomes an misleading talking point.

Also more numbers: "Of students who entered St. George’s program in fall 2009, 10 percent dropped out, 1 percent transferred and 65 percent made it to graduation in four years. Twenty percent more took five years and an additional 4 percent took six or more years." Another 6% get no residency after that haircut and the ones that do are bad (prelim as i pointed out). This is also the best school (and most expensive)! The others don't even come close to these numbers.

Those numbers are borderline meaningless. Nearly 8% of Harvard students didn't graduate in six or more years, either. Because they are in MD/PhD programs. Rolling admissions for Caribbean students means that some students that start in January will have to roll into year 4.5 if their Step exam dates and graduation dates don't line up correctly. A lot of students participate in the MD/MPH program, which rolls into year 5. Some students just take a semester off to study more for Step 1 since it is so incredibly important for us relative to US students. And yeah, some students decel and take an extra semester to graduate. I don't like it, and it's one of the bad things about SGU that I wish they would change (they might, soon).

I stand by that post I wasn't wrong. 67% match at SGU. I quite simply use the definition of matching that is given by the NRMP. I wasn't wrong his incorrect attriculation made him wrong.

Numbers I'm referencing isn't first choice. Its total.

Nice try at goalpost moving. You are wrong. The statistic you were quoting was not total, and the fact that you claim it was is evidence that you didn't understand the data you were referencing the first place. And that's okay. There is a lot of confusing misinformation spread around these forums regarding the complex issues of Caribbean schools, and very little is data-driven. I'm not here trying to change your mind about the Caribbean, I can see that you're not really interested in having an open conversation about that anyway. But hopefully other readers will find some benefit to what I've said.

 

[Mad Jack]

Is General Surgery difficult to match as a USIMG?

Very.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm wrong because you misinterpreted what I wrote? I never used the phrase "first-choice program" in either of my posts. In the future I'll be careful to be more clear about that, but that hardly makes me wrong now, especially when my point was that your claim that only 67% of SGU students match was incorrect.


Citations needed. Also, SGU residency program placement is viewable on their website from past years. There are literally thousands of graduates in excellent institutions.


I'm not arguing the attrition rates, we've been over this already. Shut down how, exactly? SGU's curriculum is held to the same standards as US medical education. They receive federal loan funding from the US govt. If thousands of students were defaulting on $300k loans every year, do you really think the school would continue to receive accreditation?


This is a really important point. All Caribbean schools are not created equal. Averaging SGU and Ross into data with Windsor and St. Matthews only muddies the waters. In artificially inflates the bad schools' stats and deflates the reputable schools' stats. It serves no purpose in clarifying the situation, it becomes an misleading talking point.



Those numbers are borderline meaningless. Nearly 8% of Harvard students didn't graduate in six or more years, either. Because they are in MD/PhD programs. Rolling admissions for Caribbean students means that some students that start in January will have to roll into year 4.5 if their Step exam dates and graduation dates don't line up correctly. A lot of students participate in the MD/MPH program, which rolls into year 5. Some students just take a semester off to study more for Step 1 since it is so incredibly important for us relative to US students. And yeah, some students decel and take an extra semester to graduate. I don't like it, and it's one of the bad things about SGU that I wish they would change (they might, soon).





Nice try at goalpost moving. You are wrong. The statistic you were quoting was not total, and the fact that you claim it was is evidence that you didn't understand the data you were referencing the first place. And that's okay. There is a lot of confusing misinformation spread around these forums regarding the complex issues of Caribbean schools, and very little is data-driven. I'm not here trying to change your mind about the Caribbean, I can see that you're not really interested in having an open conversation about that anyway. But hopefully other readers will find some benefit to what I've said.

They aren't held to the same standard as U.S. medical schools. They are held to the minimum standards of foreign schools by the U.S. government for federal loan disbursement, which has literally nothing to do with curriculum or default rate. In fact, due to some legislative pandering and bribery, they (along with the other Big 3) were able to carve an exception for their schools out when the standard for federal loans was raised. There is some legislative movement to repeal this exception, however, which I think would be fantastic.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...schools-would-face-u-s-loan-hurdle-under-bill

 

[Mad Jack]

OP, you should also keep in mind that you stand a slightly better chance than many US-IMGs due to your Step 1 score regardless of specialty. Just give it a shot, you'll probably get in somewhere (but maybe not your preferred specialty) if you apply broadly enough.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Is General Surgery difficult to match as a USIMG?

Yes

I'm wrong because you misinterpreted what I wrote? I never used the phrase "first-choice program" in either of my posts. In the future I'll be careful to be more clear about that, but that hardly makes me wrong now, especially when my point was that your claim that only 67% of SGU students match was incorrect.


Citations needed. Also, SGU residency program placement is viewable on their website from past years. There are literally thousands of graduates in excellent institutions.


I'm not arguing the attrition rates, we've been over this already. Shut down how, exactly? SGU's curriculum is held to the same standards as US medical education. They receive federal loan funding from the US govt. If thousands of students were defaulting on $300k loans every year, do you really think the school would continue to receive accreditation?


This is a really important point. All Caribbean schools are not created equal. Averaging SGU and Ross into data with Windsor and St. Matthews only muddies the waters. In artificially inflates the bad schools' stats and deflates the reputable schools' stats. It serves no purpose in clarifying the situation, it becomes an misleading talking point.



Those numbers are borderline meaningless. Nearly 8% of Harvard students didn't graduate in six or more years, either. Because they are in MD/PhD programs. Rolling admissions for Caribbean students means that some students that start in January will have to roll into year 4.5 if their Step exam dates and graduation dates don't line up correctly. A lot of students participate in the MD/MPH program, which rolls into year 5. Some students just take a semester off to study more for Step 1 since it is so incredibly important for us relative to US students. And yeah, some students decel and take an extra semester to graduate. I don't like it, and it's one of the bad things about SGU that I wish they would change (they might, soon).





Nice try at goalpost moving. You are wrong. The statistic you were quoting was not total, and the fact that you claim it was is evidence that you didn't understand the data you were referencing the first place. And that's okay. There is a lot of confusing misinformation spread around these forums regarding the complex issues of Caribbean schools, and very little is data-driven. I'm not here trying to change your mind about the Caribbean, I can see that you're not really interested in having an open conversation about that anyway. But hopefully other readers will find some benefit to what I've said.

I thought you were referencing first choice programs as that is how it read. You never mentioned first choice specialty. If that it was you meant that's OK but its not what you said. It also exemplifies how many people are stuck into FM and general interenists after probably shooting low to begin with as mad jack nicely pointed out. The numbers I mentioned are the total amount of people into the specialty of choice not first choice programs.


People aren't not graduating from the carribean in six years because they are doing a PHD. They aren't graduating because they can't. The feds are looking into taking away the accreditation from ross (I posted the link) I hope they will. 70% don't graduate on time (extra debt) 40% don't graduate at all and after all that those that do graduate 20% don't get any residency at Ross (a "reputable" school) I looked at SGU placements and they are awful. Citation isn't needed its shown by their own match list.

 

[the argus]

Is General Surgery difficult to match as a USIMG?

Any specialty other than internal medicine, family medicine, pediatrics, and psychiatry is becoming increasingly more difficult to match into as a US-IMG. People do it for sure, but many people, even many with above average step scores and GPA, are finding it very difficult.

I would say it is a bad idea to go to a caribbean school if you would not be happy ending up in one of the 4 aforementioned specialties.

 

[Goro]

But to Argus and other Carib shills, this is "reasonable."

This reminds me a German general close the end of WWII who looked at what was left (like 200 men) of his divisional command (12000 men). He pointed around and said "Yet this is a flag in Hitler's map!" Meaning, to Hitler, holed up in his Fuehrer bunker and living in a fantasyland, the General's unit was still functional fighting unit, capable of fighting off whole Armies of Russians.

Reasonable indeed.

People aren't not graduating from the carribean in six years because they are doing a PHD. They aren't graduating because they can't. The feds are looking into taking away the accreditation from ross (I posted the link) I hope they will. 70% don't graduate on time (extra debt) 40% don't graduate at all and after all that those that do graduate 20% don't get any residency at Ross (a "reputable" school) I looked at SGU placements and they are awful. Citation isn't needed its shown by their own match list.[/QUOTE]

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

But to Argus and other Carib shills, this is "reasonable."

This reminds me a German general close the end of WWII who looked at what was left (like 200 men) of his divisional command (12000 men). He pointed around and said "Yet this is a flag in Hitler's map!" Meaning, to Hitler, holed up in his Fuehrer bunker and living in a fantasyland, the General's unit was still functional fighting unit, capable of fighting off whole Armies of Russians.

Reasonable indeed.

People aren't not graduating from the carribean in six years because they are doing a PHD. They aren't graduating because they can't. The feds are looking into taking away the accreditation from ross (I posted the link) I hope they will. 70% don't graduate on time (extra debt) 40% don't graduate at all and after all that those that do graduate 20% don't get any residency at Ross (a "reputable" school) I looked at SGU placements and they are awful. Citation isn't needed its shown by their own match list.

[/QUOTE]

Loved the imagery! How they think this is reasonable is beyond me. And of that half that do get residency let's consider what residencies they get? Its just sad really.


At least we agree on one thing. The carribean school does matter! SGU doesn't equal Ross which doesnt equal AUA which doesn't eqal Windsor...

 

[Kewell35]

Any specialty other than internal medicine, family medicine, pediatrics, and psychiatry is becoming increasingly more difficult to match into as a US-IMG. People do it for sure, but many people, even many with above average step scores and GPA, are finding it very difficult.

I would say it is a bad idea to go to a caribbean school if you would not be happy ending up in one of the 4 aforementioned specialties.

IM it is then I guess.

 

[Kewell35]

Does anyone know if I can apply with the 260 Step 1 Score and get interviews? (Without writing the Step 2 CK yet)
Or as a IMG, do I need to write both to get interviews and match?

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Does anyone know if I can apply with the 260 Step 1 Score and get interviews? (Without writing the Step 2 CK yet)
Or as a IMG, do I need to write both to get interviews and match?

You need ecfmg verification for many places to even give you an interview. You need steps 1 and both 2 to get that. So, yes.