Does the medical school you attend matter when it comes to matching into competitive specialities?

[Medschoolready95]

I am interested in possibly applying to some of the more competitive specialities (ophthalmology or dermatology) for residency. I was wondering if the prestige of the medical school I attend has an effect on my chances of matching (assuming I have good step scores).

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[deleted480308]

Yes

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Yes

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

 

[RNthenDoc]

Yes.

 

[getdown]

Will prestige have an effect? To some extent yes. Will going to a less prestigious school automatically screen you out of these competitive specialties? No

Getting a 260 STEP1 from University of Arkansas will open more doors than someone with a 220 from Harvard. You can ride your school prestige only so much without you putting in the effort yourself.

 

[Medschoolready95]

Will prestige have an effect? To some extent yes. Will going to a less prestigious school automatically screen you out of these competitive specialties? No

Getting a 260 STEP1 from University of Arkansas will open more doors than someone with a 220 from Harvard. You can ride your school prestige only so much without you putting in the effort yourself.

Thanks for the response!

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Will prestige have an effect? To some extent yes. Will going to a less prestigious school automatically screen you out of these competitive specialties? No

Getting a 260 STEP1 from University of Arkansas will open more doors than someone with a 220 from Harvard. You can ride your school prestige only so much without you putting in the effort yourself.

You ruined the yes train......

As to the bolded I don't really think that's true. The average Step score at Harvard is only like a 240, meaning there are likely at least a handful of people with 220s, and if you look at their match list you would be hard pressed to determine which matches correlated to those students.

 

[getdown]

You ruined the yes train......

As to the bolded I don't really think that's true. The average Step score at Harvard is only like a 240, meaning there are likely at least a handful of people with 220s, and if you look at their match list you would be hard pressed to determine which matches correlated to those students.

You're overthinking my point. It's simply to illustrate for the competitive subspecialties a high STEP1 score is the first hurdle applicants must pass to even be considered for interviews. I'm not saying that somehow a kid from Harvard with a 22o won't be able to get an interview if he has made the right connections from his school but that for the average applicant having a higher STEP1 score will open more interview doors regardless of where they went to school than someone with a low STEP1 score from a prestigious name.

 

[Goro]

I am interested in possibly applying to some of the more competitive specialities (ophthalmology or dermatology) for residency. I was wondering if the prestige of the medical school I attend has an effect on my chances of matching (assuming I have good step scores).

My understanding is that it's not the school name -> speciality that counts, but school name -> competitive residency program. But even then, it seems to only go so far. Even Drexel sends people into Orthopedics, Ophthal and Derm

Residency Match - College of Medicine

 

[Moose A Moose]

Yes.

 

[Pagan FutureDoc]

It will matter but it will matter at lot more if you want a residency in one of the more “desirable” locations.

 

[Med Ed]

I am interested in possibly applying to some of the more competitive specialities (ophthalmology or dermatology) for residency. I was wondering if the prestige of the medical school I attend has an effect on my chances of matching (assuming I have good step scores).

Has "an effect"? Yes. Of course. But without more details that answer is not very useful.

Should you pick Harvard/Hopkins/Stanford/Penn over an unranked school? Absolutely.

Should you pick a top 20-25 over a top 50 at great expense? Perhaps not.

My simplistic way of looking at things is this: any MD school can get you into any specialty, but only a small subset will help you get into specific programs.

 

[ball123]

Absolutely!! Without question!

It makes the residency program appear stronger when they can show off their residents come from Hopkins, UCSF, Harvard, etc (even if they have lower step scores and less publications). This is especially true for top programs for very competitive residencies like ophtho/derm.

 

[jessicajonesharvard]

What's more difficult? Matching to the most top tier IM residency vs bottom-mid tier Derm/Neurosurgery/Orthopedic?

 

[PhillyMed777]

.

 

[Dwight Snoot]

100%. However, you can match competitive specialties from essentially any school if you are willing to grind

 

[ginsengreset]

You ruined the yes train......

As to the bolded I don't really think that's true. The average Step score at Harvard is only like a 240, meaning there are likely at least a handful of people with 220s, and if you look at their match list you would be hard pressed to determine which matches correlated to those students.

Harvard has a post-match survey with some interesting info. Here's some results from the past 3 years combined:

Derm:

Ophtho:

Ortho:

 

[crepes]

You ruined the yes train......

As to the bolded I don't really think that's true. The average Step score at Harvard is only like a 240, meaning there are likely at least a handful of people with 220s, and if you look at their match list you would be hard pressed to determine which matches correlated to those students.

Average Step 1 at Harvard is over 245 the last 2 years, with median close to 250.

 

[Gilakend]

What's more difficult? Matching to the most top tier IM residency vs bottom-mid tier Derm/Neurosurgery/Orthopedic?

Depends. From what I know the tippity top ranking IM programs very much like Top tier med students. Where as people from pretty much every MD school and a lot of DO schools match into the low tier competetive residencies programs every year.

So I think it depends where you go to school as to which is harder. If you go to an unknown MD school or DO school I put your chances of matching at any ortho/derm/nsurg program > the highest ranking IM.

 

[deleted962973]

I am interested in possibly applying to some of the more competitive specialities (ophthalmology or dermatology) for residency. I was wondering if the prestige of the medical school I attend has an effect on my chances of matching (assuming I have good step scores).

Are you asking this because you’re deciding between a more prestigious and less prestigious school? If not, this question has been asked ad nauseam on the forums.

Yeah it helps.

 

[LizzyM]

Your competitiveness for a specific medical specialty and a specific residency program will depend, in large part, on your Step scores. Step scores are correlated with undergraduate GPA and MCAT score combined. We know that undergraduate GPA and MCAT are not randomly distributed among medial schools but that some medical schools matriculate students with higher averages compared with other schools (the basis for using the LizzyM score to target medical school applications). So, if Step 1 score is a major factor in getting into a specific residency and LizzyM score is a predictor of Step 1 score and correlated with the medical school(s) is admitted to, the big predictor of whether you'll get into a residency is not the medical school attended so much as it is good Step 1. The school attended is an intervening or confounding variable (always get those two mixed up).

There might be a bit of a bump obtained by having a Dean's letter from a feeder school rather than a non-feeder school for a specific residency program but, as have been shown, it is not impossible to get into any residency from any medical school. The other confounder is that some schools are very mission driven and are good at selecting students who meet that mission. If that mission is primary care, then students will preferentially be headed toward primary care residencies rather than derm and ortho even if they had the step scores to be successful in matching into one of those specialties.

 

[longhaul3]

What's more difficult? Matching to the most top tier IM residency vs bottom-mid tier Derm/Neurosurgery/Orthopedic?

Probably IM, although it's a little bit of a more nuanced question because if you want to match at the top IM place and don't, you'll match somewhere else in IM, but if you don't match at the lower tier subspecialty programs, you won't match at all. Point is, it's hard to pick a specific program, and most people should be thinking in terms of "risk of not matching in X" vs. "likelihood of matching top X program"

 

[965978]

Your competitiveness for a specific medical specialty and a specific residency program will depend, in large part, on your Step scores. Step scores are correlated with undergraduate GPA and MCAT score combined. We know that undergraduate GPA and MCAT are not randomly distributed among medial schools but that some medical schools matriculate students with higher averages compared with other schools (the basis for using the LizzyM score to target medical school applications). So, if Step 1 score is a major factor in getting into a specific residency and LizzyM score is a predictor of Step 1 score and correlated with the medical school(s) is admitted to, the big predictor of whether you'll get into a residency is not the medical school attended so much as it is good Step 1. The school attended is an intervening or confounding variable (always get those two mixed up).

There might be a bit of a bump obtained by having a Dean's letter from a feeder school rather than a non-feeder school for a specific residency program but, as have been shown, it is not impossible to get into any residency from any medical school. The other confounder is that some schools are very mission driven and are good at selecting students who meet that mission. If that mission is primary care, then students will preferentially be headed toward primary care residencies rather than derm and ortho even if they had the step scores to be successful in matching into one of those specialties.

I also feel that the perks of going to a prestigious medical school would be negated by doing a successful audition rotation (in direct comparison to someone who does go to a prestigious med school but didn't do an audition rotation).

 

[longhaul3]

I also feel that the perks of going to a prestigious medical school would be negated by doing a successful audition rotation (in direct comparison to someone who does go to a prestigious med school but didn't do an audition rotation).

It can be, but people underestimate the "perks" of going to a prestigious med school. It's not just the name of the institution. Top institutions tend to have top departments with top faculty. Top faculty lending their support to your application goes a very long way, especially in smaller fields, which tend to be the more competitive ones. Crushing an away rotation always helps in select fields, but that's not all there is to it.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Your competitiveness for a specific medical specialty and a specific residency program will depend, in large part, on your Step scores. Step scores are correlated with undergraduate GPA and MCAT score combined. We know that undergraduate GPA and MCAT are not randomly distributed among medial schools but that some medical schools matriculate students with higher averages compared with other schools (the basis for using the LizzyM score to target medical school applications). So, if Step 1 score is a major factor in getting into a specific residency and LizzyM score is a predictor of Step 1 score and correlated with the medical school(s) is admitted to, the big predictor of whether you'll get into a residency is not the medical school attended so much as it is good Step 1. The school attended is an intervening or confounding variable (always get those two mixed up).

There might be a bit of a bump obtained by having a Dean's letter from a feeder school rather than a non-feeder school for a specific residency program but, as have been shown, it is not impossible to get into any residency from any medical school. The other confounder is that some schools are very mission driven and are good at selecting students who meet that mission. If that mission is primary care, then students will preferentially be headed toward primary care residencies rather than derm and ortho even if they had the step scores to be successful in matching into one of those specialties.

I don’t think it’s a confounder. How do you otherwise account for the non-insignificant number of people from top tier med schools with lower step 1 scores getting great residency positions in highly competitive specialties?

 

[965978]

I don’t think it’s a confounder. How do you otherwise account for the non-insignificant number of people from top tier med schools with lower step 1 scores getting great residency positions in highly competitive specialties?

They probably did something to make up for it: excellent audition rotation, research, excellent M3 grades, etc

 

[LizzyM]

I don’t think it’s a confounder. How do you otherwise account for the non-insignificant number of people from top tier med schools with lower step 1 scores getting great residency positions in highly competitive specialties?

Lower than their peers at their school but not "low" as we see from the lowest scores posted at Harvard are not, objectively "low" scores. Also, don't discount the other factors that got someone into a top school in the first place such as legacy and other preferential treatment unrelated to scores and grades.

 

[WedgeDawg]

They probably did something to make up for it: excellent audition rotation, research, excellent M3 grades, etc

Lower than their peers at their school but not "low" as we see from the lowest scores posted at Harvard are not, objectively "low" scores. Also, don't discount the other factors that got someone into a top school in the first place such as legacy and other preferential treatment unrelated to scores and grades.

Columbia also has an incredibly robust internal document that shows a lot of data (step 1 and 2 scores, grades, aways, research, etc) for each person that's matched in the past couple of years into every specialty, and there are certainly people with lower scores / mediocre grades / etc that matched very well into highly competitive specialties. I'm talking like good deal of people with scores below 230 (sometimes by a lot) matching surgical subs, many of whom also have less than great clinical grades. It would be against school policy for me to post the document here, so I won't.

MCAT and GPA correlate to some extent with step scores, but it's not that strong and doesn't fully account for the discrepancy we see.

I say this also having talked on the interview trail to people from other top schools with less than stellar academic credentials matching to highly sought after places in highly competitive specialties. And even within the same step score ranges, you'll get more/better interviews coming from a top school than from an unknown one.

The home school (or at the very least home department) effect is real. I'm not discounting things like legacy or whatever, but those account for a small minority of people matching.

There is no doubt in my mind that what school you come from plays an important part in where you'll interview for competitive specialties regardless of other factors.

 

[965978]

Columbia also has an incredibly robust internal document that shows a lot of data (step 1 and 2 scores, grades, aways, research, etc) for each person that's matched in the past couple of years into every specialty, and there are certainly people with lower scores / mediocre grades / etc that matched very well into highly competitive specialties. I'm talking like good deal of people with scores in the 200s to 220s matching surgical subs, many of whom also have less than great clinical grades. I would call these objectively low step scores as they are below the national average for all matches in all specialties. It would be against school policy for me to post the document here, so I won't.

MCAT and GPA correlate to some extent with step scores, but it's not that strong and doesn't fully account for the discrepancy we see.

I say this also having talked on the interview trail to people from other top schools with less than stellar academic credentials matching to highly sought after places in highly competitive specialties. And even within the same step score ranges, you'll get more/better interviews coming from a top school than from an unknown one.

The home school (or at the very least home department) effect is real. I'm not discounting things like legacy or whatever, but those account for a small minority of people matching.

There is no doubt in my mind that what school you come from plays an important part in where you'll interview for competitive specialties regardless of other factors.

What if you isolate the objectively low step 1 scores, filter out the ones with outstanding achievements, and then get a ratio of how many of those matched into an ivy vs. top non-ivy?

 

[LizzyM]

What if you isolate the objectively low step 1 scores, filter out the ones with outstanding achievements, and then get a ratio of how many of those matched into an ivy vs. top non-ivy?

You still don't have a way of measuring motivation and desire for specific geographic locations, specific non-competitive specialties, couples match, military obligations, etc. There is a lot that goes into this but in large part it is on you, the applicant, to make the most with what you have. If you have a network that includes faculty at top schools, either because you attended that school, or you did a rotation there, or you did a summer research experience there, that will factor into the decision but merely being from a specific school is not the be all and end all or a huge predictor.

The flip slide: People who are highly motivated by prestige (or being judged "excellent") are going to work their tails off to get into top schools and are going choose the top schools over cheaper options. They are going work their tails off to get into top residency programs. Again, it is the player, not the location of the game, that really matters, IMHO.

 

[WedgeDawg]

You still don't have a way of measuring motivation and desire for specific geographic locations, specific non-competitive specialties, couples match, military obligations, etc. There is a lot that goes into this but in large part it is on you, the applicant, to make the most with what you have. If you have a network that includes faculty at top schools, either because you attended that school, or you did a rotation there, or you did a summer research experience there, that will factor into the decision but merely being from a specific school is not the be all and end all or a huge predictor.

The flip slide: People who are highly motivated by prestige (or being judged "excellent") are going to work their tails off to get into top schools and are going choose the top schools over cheaper options. They are going work their tails off to get into top residency programs. Again, it is the player, not the location of the game, that really matters, IMHO.

Oh the player absolutely, 100% is the most important part. But the school plays an independent role as well.

 

[manofsteel9]

Would people agree to this analogy? Med school is comparable to D1 football athletes who are all most likely going to end up in in the NFL. Assuming that top residency spots are analogous to the top round picks regardless of the actual team (maybe round 1,2), it matters some what which football program you are from, but what matters most is your individual performance and combine results. For example, you're more likely to get drafted in the first round coming from Alabama or Clemson, but there are still plenty of top round picks from smaller football programs. This analogy follows through to the medical careers. Even though you are at a mid/lower residency, you can still be a leader in your field as long as you work your butt off (Tom Brady).

 

[LizzyM]

Would people agree to this analogy? Med school is comparable to D1 football athletes who are all most likely going to end up in in the NFL. Assuming that top residency spots are analogous to the top round picks regardless of the actual team (maybe round 1,2), it matters some what which football program you are from, but what matters most is your individual performance and combine results. For example, you're more likely to get drafted in the first round coming from Alabama or Clemson, but there are still plenty of top round picks from smaller football programs. This analogy follows through to the medical careers. Even though you are at a mid/lower residency, you can still be a leader in your field as long as you work your butt off (Tom Brady).

Hey now, Tom was from Michigan which is not too shabby a football program.

 

[Med Ed]

Top institutions tend to have top departments with top faculty. Top faculty lending their support to your application goes a very long way, especially in smaller fields, which tend to be the more competitive ones.

So-called "top faculty" can be a double edged sword. I have seen a long history of incoming PhD students who want to work with somebody famous in their field of interest. The reality is they usually end up working for famous person's postdocs. Or they find out the person got famous not for being a great and kind teacher and mentor, but for being a ruthless jackass.

A lot of departments in mid and low-tier institutions have faculty that trained at the big places. They also tend to be young and hungry. One of the inherent benefits of smaller, less intense training environments is the opportunity to forge relationships with faculty who take a direct interest in their students.

I'm not saying this is a hard and fast rule, but just as there are benefits to being at a "top" place, there are potential benefits to being elsewhere.

 

[965978]

Or they find out the person got famous not for being a great and kind teacher and mentor, but for being a ruthless jackass.

 

[longhaul3]

So-called "top faculty" can be a double edged sword. I have seen a long history of incoming PhD students who want to work with somebody famous in their field of interest. The reality is they usually end up working for famous person's postdocs. Or they find out the person got famous not for being a great and kind teacher and mentor, but for being a ruthless jackass.

A lot of departments in mid and low-tier institutions have faculty that trained at the big places. They also tend to be young and hungry. One of the inherent benefits of smaller, less intense training environments is the opportunity to forge relationships with faculty who take a direct interest in their students.

I'm not saying this is a hard and fast rule, but just as there are benefits to being at a "top" place, there are potential benefits to being elsewhere.

I agree, although what you're describing sounds more relevant to research endeavors and especially PhD students, as you said. Most med students applying into a small, competitive specialty will have the support of their home department, and most of the time the chair, PD, and other mentors do take a direct interest in the students, because there may only be 1-5ish students applying in a given year. Hopefully if there is a jerk in the department, someone will have quietly advised the student not to try to get too close with that person. At my "top" med school there was definitely an unwritten list of such people in a few different departments. With a large roster of "top" faculty it's still easy to find mentorship from the good ones.

 

[751866]

Here is a summary for the OP: yes, prestige of medical school matters for residency. I have seen this first hand as have others. If you want a competitive specialty or a competitive program (for any specialty), prestige will matter. Prestigious schools also have more well-regarded faculty to write letters and make calls, have more high-quality research opportunities, secure more funding for research, and have more "wow" factor when patients see their (resident) doctor went to [The Big Leagues] rather than [Joe Schmoe's School of Medical Things]. Look at the matches for noncompetitive specialties from top schools, they're still pretty darn good. Truth be told, the top schools have an advantage on their worst days that is usually better than us on our top days.

 

[aldol16]

Just head on over to the MD student forums and look at the match lists. Draw your own conclusions. You can fall into either the "it's confounded by the fact that top students go to top schools" or the "wow, it really matters" camps. What end up happening even if you have a lower step score is that if you know someone at your school who is a big name in the field (especially for smaller fields), it means a lot if they put in a call for you. They're not going to do so if you're a bad student or a bad doctor obviously but if you had a bad day on step 1 and otherwise are a super competitive applicant, they can put in a call for you. These people tend to be at the top programs (but not exclusively, obviously).

 

[SouthernGent]

Yes.

 

[M&L]

My understanding is that it's not the school name -> speciality that counts, but school name -> competitive residency program. But even then, it seems to only go so far. Even Drexel sends people into Orthopedics, Ophthal and Derm

Residency Match - College of Medicine

so Drexel is one of my current acceptances, and for the last month i have been going back and forth on where i stand with Drexel.... This phrasing finally helped me make up my mind. hahaha

 

[M&L]

I also feel that the perks of going to a prestigious medical school would be negated by doing a successful audition rotation (in direct comparison to someone who does go to a prestigious med school but didn't do an audition rotation).

could you please explain what audition rotation is? what specialties it applies to? and if it is beneficial?

 

[scarletgirl777]

Absolutely!! Without question!

It makes the residency program appear stronger when they can show off their residents come from Hopkins, UCSF, Harvard, etc (even if they have lower step scores and less publications). This is especially true for top programs for very competitive residencies like ophtho/derm.

At one of my residency interviews they made a PowerPoint to brag about the percentage of their people who came from top x medical schools. Distateful but they were just saying out loud what other PDs were thinking. And when my residency was interviewing people they did make post interview comments about very prestigious or very unprestigious schools.

Finally, some schools do not have a home residency program or sometimes a home department in all fields. It will be hard to match into a competitive or niche field without a reasonably strong department at your home school to get letters from and to make phone calls for you.

 

[751866]

could you please explain what audition rotation is? what specialties it applies to? and if it is beneficial?

Audition=externship=external rotation=away rotation= I'm sure there are other names I don't know.

Basically, you go spend some time at a school of interest in the department of interest. If you want neurosurgery at UPenn, you might try to spend one month at UPenn with their Neurosurg people on a clinical rotation to make them aware you're a hard worker and smart. This also helps to get an LoR from the department so when they review your app (among many others) they know you rotated there and have a faculty already vouching for you.

It's more common and more necessary, as a generality, for more competitive specialties or more competitive schools. Case-by-case it varies. Some people look fantastic on paper and spending one month somewhere will only give people a reason to rank you lower because you will probably rub one person the wrong way even for one instant, and as dramatic as that sounds, that could be enough to make you look relatively worse. Some people have less competitive apps and do a rotation to show how smart and helpful they are in the clinic; they can befriend people and make the overall perception of their candidacy more favorable.

 

[Mad Jack]

Harvard matching 3 people to ophtho with sub-240 scores should give you your answer

 

[751866]

Harvard matching 3 people to ophtho with sub-240 scores should give you your answer

Exactly...scores don't show up on the Current Residents page, only the medical school and maybe the undergraduate program. Harvard looks a lot better than Joe Schmoes bottom-of-mid-tier academy despite the former having 240 and the latter having 260.