Don't lost hope

[yellowtibby]

Most disadvantaged group when applying to school? Caucasian male. You know it, I know it, and society knows it. Affirmative action is great, don't get me wrong. But if a school is looking at generic white male A (that's me) or generic minority B (that's not me) and we have equal stats, they shouldn't pick the minority simply because he/she is a minority and they have to fill some hidden quota.
Don't rag on affirmative action, it is a wonderful ideal to uphold. But don't be stupid and think that it's all sunshine and candy sticks and makes everything an even playing field either.

Research shows that it's actually Asians.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Darklord]

URMs and Affirmative Action suck!

I believe I was denied admission because of this. I had stellar stats, a great PS, great LORs, and great clinical experience. Yet, some people get into medical-pharmacy school with zero experience, a crappy ps, crappy grades, crappy everything. The only thing they have to their name is URM. adcoms need to get their acts straight. This is called reverse descrimination.

Oh the pain I have to go through for not being an URM..

Yes, I'm an Asian and technically we should be considered minorities (if you look at the entire population-not the applican) compared to Central and South Americans (just an example.)

 

[balab]

Are you mad brah? Or are you being fooled by the OP. I will educate you.

Notice the title of this thread. It is grammatically incorrect. The OP has stated he is not a URM, however we as doctors and scientist cannot assume that his answer is correct because we can't assume that the OP even knows what a URM is, much less a troll. It is widely assumed he is a URM base on his scores and his grammar and the fact that he has been accepted in more than one school. Yet he has failed to answer me when I asked him what a "URM" is.

Henceforth, the OP has yet to answer my question of what a URM is, I am highly disrespected.

Now to address your post Dirzn, the affirmative action and URM is not fair. It's either you're good or you're not. You have it or you don't. Not "Oh, 3.2 is not much worse than a 3.6 Asian kid, let's take this black/hispanic guy."

Check.

Ok, now I am offended by your post. It is stereotypes from people like you that is fueling this debate. From your post you are saying because he cant spell lose, and he has low stats you automatically assume he is probably a URM? Where do you get off asking him if he knows what a URM is? Any idiot reading this post can gather from the context what URM means. I am glad he didn't dignify that question with a response, frankly, I wouldn't have either.

Now to my point, to all of you screaming about how unfair affirmative action is, now that the said poster is not a URM so he is probably caucasian or Asian why arent yall screaming about how unfair it is that a "(insert race)" got in with dismal stats? But If he was black/hispanic you automatically assume it was because of affirmative action, do I snese a double standard?

 

[iBeast]

Ok, now I am offended by your post. It is stereotypes from people like you that is fueling this debate. From your post you are saying because he cant spell lose, and he has low stats you automatically assume he is probably a URM? Where do you get off asking him if he knows what a URM is? Any idiot reading this post can gather from the context what URM means. I am glad he didn't dignify that question with a response, frankly, I wouldn't have either.

Now to my point, to all of you screaming about how unfair affirmative action is, now that the said poster is not a URM so he is probably caucasian or Asian why arent yall screaming about how unfair it is that a "(insert race)" got in with dismal stats? But If he was black/hispanic you automatically assume it was because of affirmative action, do I snese a double standard?

Well than young seer, the Pharmacy Guru himself, how exactly did he/she get in with those stats? And why should we assume he/she knows what a "URM" is? Why should we assume he/she would figure out what a "URM" is by reading our post? I guess you also assume that the OP got in because he was great in his interview and got lucky right? I'll be awaiting your response.

 

[balab]

Well than young seer, the Pharmacy Guru himself, how exactly did he/she get in with those stats? And why should we assume he/she knows what a "URM" is? Why should we assume he/she would figure out what a "URM" is by reading our post? I guess you also assume that the OP got in because he was great in his interview and got lucky right? I'll be awaiting your response.

Well that is the point I don't know, and you don't know either. SO why should we castigate him? If he says he is not a URM he is not. So, my point is, instead of groaning on URM's, you should all be just as incensed that a non URM got in with these stats as well.

 

[Dr.iz-n]

First of all, I'm not a "brah", I'm a African-American female. At this point, it's a shame that these assumptions and all this crap is going on. Whether you agree with affirmative action or not, I still feel like it is needed in some instances....I'm just irritated that we've totally lost the point of this original thread...Who cares how this person got there? This person could have had a glowing interview or other personal qualities that is necessary for pharmacy school...

Pick and choose your battles, don't come at me like you are "checking" someone...It's really not that serious (at least for me it isn't, maybe it is for you)

Are you mad brah? Or are you being fooled by the OP. I will educate you.

Notice the title of this thread. It is grammatically incorrect. The OP has stated he is not a URM, however we as doctors and scientist cannot assume that his answer is correct because we can't assume that the OP even knows what a URM is, much less a troll. It is widely assumed he is a URM base on his scores and his grammar and the fact that he has been accepted in more than one school. Yet he has failed to answer me when I asked him what a "URM" is.

Henceforth, the OP has yet to answer my question of what a URM is, I am highly disrespected.

Now to address your post Dirzn, the affirmative action and URM is not fair. It's either you're good or you're not. You have it or you don't. Not "Oh, 3.2 is not much worse than a 3.6 Asian kid, let's take this black/hispanic guy."

Check.

 

[Dr.iz-n]

I believe OTFuturePharmD might be implying that if you are of an URM, you usually have to have your stuff together--stellar EVERYTHING...Not saying the next person didn't try, but since there are not that many minorities going into these scientific fields, you have to be on top of your game EVEN MORE. I believe this is what this person was trying to say when he said he has to work "twice as hard"...

Those who are the majority in society will never understand how it feels to be a URM and how hard you have to work to get to the top so someone can look PAST your skin color...Some things may be easier to obtain if you aren't a URM, and that's just real....Some people even resent URMs being at these schools even though they have what it takes and have the credentials, but you know why they resent them? Because of their skin color, and it's a shame!

Its an unfair statement because you said you worked twice as hard as everyone else. I was just saying other people in this country have had their problems and difficulties as well. To suggest that you worked twice as hard compared to other nationalities isn't right. There are plenty of other ethinicities that weren't given anything as well, but I'm sure they had to work their butts off as well to get where they are now.

 

[MRSA Sucks]

Healthy discussion, but I just think it's kinda messed up that someone is so bitter that they turn it into a race issue, when reallly that person may not have been qualifieid...No worries, just my opinion...That's what upsets me...If you weren't qualified and didn't get in, it is what it is...Don't turn it into "oh, this person is an URM, that's why I didn't get in" type of issue...Please...

Hello,

I'm sorry but was that message referring to me? Please read my previous posts. Also, if you are indeed referring to me, I have not even applied to pharmacy schools yet.

 

[missy1984]

URMs and Affirmative Action suck!

I believe I was denied admission because of this. I had stellar stats, a great PS, great LORs, and great clinical experience. Yet, some people get into medical-pharmacy school with zero experience, a crappy ps, crappy grades, crappy everything. The only thing they have to their name is URM. adcoms need to get their acts straight. This is called reverse descrimination.

Oh the pain I have to go through for not being an URM..

Yes, I'm an Asian and technically we should be considered minorities (if you look at the entire population-not the applican) compared to Central and South Americans (just an example.)

You are definitely lacking in some area. How can you be a healthcare professional and say that URM's suck. If it makes you feel better you can blame it on AA. I can say with confidence that the adcom probably felt you would not be a good pharmacist and thats why you were probably rejected!

 

[iBeast]

First of all, I'm not a "brah", I'm a African-American female. At this point, it's a shame that these assumptions and all this crap is going on. Whether you agree with affirmative action or not, I still feel like it is needed in some instances....I'm just irritated that we've totally lost the point of this original thread...Who cares how this person got there? This person could have had a glowing interview or other personal qualities that is necessary for pharmacy school...

Pick and choose your battles, don't come at me like you are "checking" someone...It's really not that serious (at least for me it isn't, maybe it is for you)

Lol yep that is what's most important. Who needs to worry about his stats when he has the passion and willingness to help people! Yep that is very important to the patients.

You got me.

 

[JTrue14]

I believe OTFuturePharmD might be implying that if you are of an URM, you usually have to have your stuff together--stellar EVERYTHING...Not saying the next person didn't try, but since there are not that many minorities going into these scientific fields, you have to be on top of your game EVEN MORE. I believe this is what this person was trying to say when he said he has to work "twice as hard"...

Those who are the majority in society will never understand how it feels to be a URM and how hard you have to work to get to the top so someone can look PAST your skin color...Some things may be easier to obtain if you aren't a URM, and that's just real....Some people even resent URMs being at these schools even though they have what it takes and have the credentials, but you know why they resent them? Because of their skin color, and it's a shame!

Its definately a shame if you get looked past because of the color of your skin. I should know since I am a minority in this country, but the fact of the matter is its going to be impossible to please everyone. Sometimes the rules of the game may seem hurt one more than another and as unfair as that may be thats just the way it is. One person's set of ideals will probably be dramatically different from another persons. If I were to go to China, France, Russia or any other foreign country, you think I won't get looked down on?

The reason I felt it was unfair for the person to say he worked "twice as hard compared to everyone else" is because he shouldn't be too hasty in saying he worked so much harder than Asians, Caucasians, or any other ethinicities because he is African American. Its not like Asian people suddenly were given Pharmacist/other prof positions when they came to America or had anyone to look up to. Many Vietnamese people came here after the war with absolutely nothing. No family to help, and nothing of value. They had to learn a completely new language, take their NAPLEX exams, and overcome many other challenges that coming to a brand new country has to offer.

Like I said earlier, its going to be up to the individual (black, hispanic, asian, white, etc) to meet their own goals.

 

[elleNY]

Problem is, the playing field is NEVER level. Do people with mentally or emotionally challenged parents get some kind of affirmative action? What about those with incarcerated or drug addicted parents? What about those that get the crap kicked out of them every day before/after school by a loved on? There are always extenuating circumstances, whether it be life circumstance OR race. This is why affirmative action for minorities isn't necessarily "fair"..Life isn't fair.
BTW, I'm a liberal democrat so leave me alone! LOL!

xo
Elle

 

[Kruton]

Problem is, the playing field is NEVER level. Do people with mentally or emotionally challenged parents get some kind of affirmative action? What about those with incarcerated or drug addicted parents? What about those that get the crap kicked out of them every day before/after school by a loved on? There are always extenuating circumstances, whether it be life circumstance OR race. This is why affirmative action for minorities isn't necessarily "fair"..Life isn't fair.
BTW, I'm a liberal democrat so leave me alone! LOL!

xo
Elle

So you are arguing for affirmative action? If that is the case, why can't we just say Asians only. And then when people ask why reply nothing's fair.

 

[Passion4Sci]

Problem is, the playing field is NEVER level. Do people with mentally or emotionally challenged parents get some kind of affirmative action? What about those with incarcerated or drug addicted parents? What about those that get the crap kicked out of them every day before/after school by a loved on? There are always extenuating circumstances, whether it be life circumstance OR race. This is why affirmative action for minorities isn't necessarily "fair"..Life isn't fair.
BTW, I'm a liberal democrat so leave me alone! LOL!

xo
Elle

Elle, it seems as thought the first portion of your reply's hypothesis is that there's no need for affirmative action, because life isn't fair, and mentally ill, emotionally challenged, and abused people don't "receive special treatment."

However, you then go on to say that affirmative action isn't necessarily fair, that life isn't fair, and it seems as though your nested implicit assumption is that minorities need the help, and you wish that other equally disadvantaged folks (mentally ill, etc) could also receive some form of aid/advantage.

I doubt you actually meant this, so would you mind re-phrasing your reply in a more coherent manner? =)

 

[medicalCPA]

I believe this thread should be closed. This is not the place to debate the merits/demerits of affirmative action. On SDN's sociopolitical forums, you can debate to your heart's content.

 

[WEsternU2013]

This post may be valid...I had a 2.7 pharmcas gpa, zero volunteer/experience, 55 pcat score, and solid letter of recs. I was accepted to 3 schools and waiting on one more (Xula).

 

[elleNY]

Let me rephrase.. I agree with your assessment of my POV in your first paragraph, which addresses the idea that affirmative action for minorities is wrong/unfair because those with other serious challenges (that may impact their grades) are not afforded the same considerations. It is a fact of life that there are various impedements to learning (racial/educational/socioeconomical/etc)..and I think we just have to deal with the hand that we're delt, so to speak...
BUT...If, and only if, there IS affirmative action, for it to be ideal or fair, it needs to apply to all those aforementioned students in disadvantaged situations..NOT JUST ONE of the disadvantaged groups (re: URM).. but this just isnt feasible..
Does this make more sense? Perhaps I could have been, and still can be, more eloquent.
Be advised that I am typing these posts as my friend/hairdresser tugs at my scalp and yells at me to turn the computer off lol

xo
Elle

Elle, it seems as thought the first portion of your reply's hypothesis is that there's no need for affirmative action, because life isn't fair, and mentally ill, emotionally challenged, and abused people don't "receive special treatment."

However, you then go on to say that affirmative action isn't necessarily fair, that life isn't fair, and it seems as though your nested implicit assumption is that minorities need the help, and you wish that other equally disadvantaged folks (mentally ill, etc) could also receive some form of aid/advantage.

I doubt you actually meant this, so would you mind re-phrasing your reply in a more coherent manner? =)

 

[pharmocist]

When I originally posted this tread, I really didn't intend it to turn into what it has. To some, my story may seem outrageous, but thats the reason I wanted to share it. I wanted to give hope to those of you who may have had bad luck throughout your undergrad career. I started out college with a 2.0 for my first few semesters, but with hard work i managed to bring it a 2.8-2.9. So for those of you in my situation, have hope ( i belive its god grace that got me into these schools)

 

[confettiflyer]

When I originally posted this tread, I really didn't intend it to turn into what it has. To some, my story may seem outrageous, but thats the reason I wanted to share it. I wanted to give hope to those of you who may have had bad luck throughout your undergrad career. I started out college with a 2.0 for my first few semesters, but with hard work i managed to bring it a 2.8-2.9. So for those of you in my situation, have hope ( i belive its god grace that got me into these schools)

ok that explains it...that means you probably pulled a 3.7-4.0 for the final half of your college career where the classes are more difficult. I'd weigh this heavily in an admissions decision and in this case it sounds like the "overall GPA" didn't tell the whole story.

I'd rather take a 2.8 overall with a 3.7-4.0 average over the final 2 years vs. someone with a 2.9-3.0 steady over 4, just my personal preference.

 

[pharmocist]

ok that explains it...that means you probably pulled a 3.7-4.0 for the final half of your college career where the classes are more difficult. I'd weigh this heavily in an admissions decision and in this case it sounds like the "overall GPA" didn't tell the whole story.

I'd rather take a 2.8 overall with a 3.7-4.0 average over the final 2 years vs. someone with a 2.9-3.0 steady over 4, just my personal preference.

Yes, my situation was very similar to what you are describing. I remember reading a post by PointBreak that really inspired me and made me believe I could get into Pharm School, so i wanted tell my story to inspire someone else

 

[thephoenician88]

I don't understand why this derogatory and borderline racist thread has not been locked. The comments have nothing to do with the original poster nor his situation anymore because he hasn't provided enough information about his "success."

 

[Carboxide]

I don't understand why this derogatory and borderline racist thread has not been locked. The comments have nothing to do with the original poster nor his situation anymore because he hasn't provided enough information about his "success."

How is this thread RACIST? No one is discriminating against anyone...people are just sharing views.

 

[thephoenician88]

To call this back and forth argument of "unfair urm acceptances" and "certain group is dumber than another certain group" is just "sharing views" is a bit naive.

 

[dreezy10]

All of you complaining over someone getting in over you need to stop complaining.

whether it's the URM, or the rich guy whose parents made a donation to the school (This does happen) all you can do is do your best. Life is fair and unfair,

but people judge others WAY TOO MUCH.

worry about yourself and maximize your own potential. URM or ORM, work hard and stop judging so much.

So busy watching others, that you cant see your own flaws. sad.

 

[BenUstudent]

I believe this thread should be closed. This is not the place to debate the merits/demerits of affirmative action. On SDN's sociopolitical forums, you can debate to your heart's content.

I second that. or at least moved to the Sociopolitical forum rather than closed

 

[jasonbourne]

URMs and Affirmative Action suck!

I believe I was denied admission because of this. I had stellar stats, a great PS, great LORs, and great clinical experience. Yet, some people get into medical-pharmacy school with zero experience, a crappy ps, crappy grades, crappy everything. The only thing they have to their name is URM. adcoms need to get their acts straight. This is called reverse descrimination.

Oh the pain I have to go through for not being an URM..

Yes, I'm an Asian and technically we should be considered minorities (if you look at the entire population-not the applican) compared to Central and South Americans (just an example.)

Get over it!!! Affirmative action doesnt suck!!

-By the way, Asians make up 5% of the population, but from the stats i usually see from different pharm schools, they make up at least 15-30% of the class. You should be happy about that advantage.

-First of all, you should bring evidence to back up that claim because what you said is fiction. Let me explain to you what affirmative action is because it has been misintepreted by a lot of people:

you have a black and a white applicant, they are equally as qualified to become medical doctors or pharmacists. they posses the same experience, same E.C.s, etc. Now the adcom has to decide who to take. This is where Affirmative action sets in. The black person is then accepted because the adcom realizes that there has been a disparity when it comes to the number of blacks being accepted to the school when compared to whites. The adcom is not saying that they are not equally qualified. The adcom is saying they are trying to create a balance and make sure that one group is not being ignored.

Note: Affirmative action applies only when there is a tie.

It amuses me how a lot of people want to blame affirmative action for their rejections to pharm school. You should make up a better excuse. There are a lot of smart minorities out there but it seems like the ignorance and stereotypes of many people have made them believe that minorities who apply are not qualified. This is the main reason why schools like howard, Xavier, and FAMU are trying as hard as they can to produce a lot of black pharmacists so that there can be a balance in the society.

-By the way, I am black, 90% pcat, 3.8 GPA, ECs with american red cross, and lots of other organisations. So let your stereotypes not deceive you into thinking there are not many intelligent minorites out there. It is offensive for you to say

"Yet, some people get into medical-pharmacy school with zero experience, a crappy ps, crappy grades, crappy everything. The only thing they have to their name is URM."


I supposed you havent had some of the real life experiences some of us have faced. Its so easy to say Affirmative action sucks, but if u were in some of our shoes right now, You would understand what it means to be judged everywhere you go by the color of your skin.

 

[iBeast]

Why did you feel the need to mention that you are black? It's the year 2009 and Obama is president by the way.

 

[jasonbourne]

When I checked the stats a couple of years ago, Hispanics were the only minority group underrepresented in pharmacy admissions. Blacks were represented just slightly above the percentage of the US population indicated in the last census. Asians were significantly above the per capita ratio. And, whites were very slightly under, but it was less than a percentage point so it isn't really much to whine about.

Thats not true. Blacks are the most under represented in pharm school. I concede that hispanics are also under represented, but you should know blacks are the least represented.

 

[jasonbourne]

Why did you feel the need to mention that you are black? It's the year 2009 and Obama is president by the way.

I mentioned I am black because the person's post to whom i was replying made a statement that didnt make sense. why would he assume that the only thing some people have on their applications is "URMs".
I am a minority and i believe thats what he said is offensive. I am trying to let him know that affirmative action sets in only when there is a tie.
A lot of people dont understand that affirmative action takes place when there is a tie.

By the way, tha fact that Obama is president doesnt mean that racism doesnt exist. It would be naive to think of it in that way. If u want me to give you my life's experiences, I would be very happy to share them here

 

[jasonbourne]

I suppose it depends, but when I was (briefly) exploring UoPhoenix for an M.S. in Biology, they required a 3.0 in Undergraduate.

I don't really think a 3.0 is asking too much...

I wish I was a URM so I had more time to slack off and then blame my lack of GPA on where I was born or where my parents were born. That'd be swell.

I grew up every bit as poor as URM folks that get special treatment, and I put myself through college, then joined the Army to pay back my loans, and now I am continuing my education. I see no reason anyone needs special help with grades, etc that I didn't get, despite no one giving me any advantages that NON-underrepresented people are innately supposed to have available to them. My parents didn't go to college, my sister didn't go to college, and no one taught me "good study habits" - I figured it out for myself.

Going to take heat for this I'm sure, but someone's minority status is a piss-poor reason for letting someone into a prestigious school. You earn it on your own, or you're out, and that's that.

But that's why I'll never be president I guess.

This is what you said above:


"I wish I was a URM so I had more time to slack off and then blame my lack of GPA on where I was born or where my parents were born. That'd be swell."

What makes you believe that URMs slack off then blame their GPA on where they where born? It shows a lot of ignorance on your part.
I am also a URM. I dont believe URMs slack off. URMs have also served in the military like you did. Collin powell is a good example. We also work very hard but due to certain inequalities in socioecomic status, we may not always achieve what we want.

 

[Passion4Sci]

This is what you said above:


"I wish I was a URM so I had more time to slack off and then blame my lack of GPA on where I was born or where my parents were born. That'd be swell."

What makes you believe that URMs slack off then blame thei GPA on where they where born? It shows a lot of ignorance on your part.
I am also a URM. I dont believe URMs slack off. URMs have also served in the military like you did. Collin powell is a good example. We also work very hard but due to certain inequalities in socioecomic status, we may not always achieve what we want.

It's only anecdotal, but because I have witnessed it first hand, just as you've witnessed hard-working URMs who can't achieve what they want because of SES.

You're taking it personally because you are a URM, and if you'd read all of my posts instead of isolating one for your own purposes, you'd know that I acknowledged throughout that the military is very diverse. How could it be diverse if there were no URMs? This does not pass a logic test.

You are writing your reply with a knee-jerk, gut reaction and it shows.

I was taking a multi-culturality class a couple semesters ago, and I remember Colin Powell (And oddly enough, Barack Obama) coming up in class. Almost without question, the African-American students sneered at the mere mention of his name, saying such things as, "That white-washed ni**er isn't even close to being Black."

As a black man yourself, Jasonbourne (The coolest white cat I know, btw!), I'd like to know why you don't feel like your brethren in my class, who find "white-washed" black folks to be "not black" due to their success and/or opting-out of cultural activities in favor of "white" ones.

I am quite sure it varies state to state, but in California, while it most certainly is not written anywhere, there is an expectation on behalf of URMs that, if they get pretty decent grades, they can "ride the system." Is every URM like this? Hell no, of course not, and nowhere did I say that EVERY URM "rides the system."

My contention is that there should not be a system to ride. Like I've said, time and time again, I lived and played in the same ghetto, drug- and gang-infested place that hundreds, nay thousands, of URMs did, and do I get the same benefit of the doubt that they might in school with equal credentials to mine? Nah, 'course not, because people look at me and think "Hm, a white boy wearing a Ralph Lauren with Brooks Brothers shoes, he's gotta have rich parents" just like they look at a highly-achieving URM and say, "Man, that guy must've really pulled himself up by his bootstraps to get where he is today, I bet his people are proud of him."

Don't believe that stuff is said? Spend 6 hours at just about any human services agency and you'll hear enough it'll make you SICK to your stomach.

Fact: High-achieving Whites have this expected of them, and when they don't achieve, something went wrong.
Fact: High-achieving minorities are commended, lauded, and down-right idolized (almost to the point of offending them). This doesn't apply to Asians, as they are "the model minority" and success is, too, expected of them.

I remember our instructor split the clase onto two sides. One side, she asked students who identified themselves as "white" to stand. The other side, you guessed it, had anyone who identified themselves as "minority." She then asked a series of questions, and the idea was, afetr each question was read, you stepped forward if you'd ever heard/experienced a thing like that in your life. When she read the question, "Someone in my life has told me that I make my people proud", almost without exception, minorities stepped forward, while not a SINGLE white person did.

Why is that, do you think?

Food for thought.

 

[FarscapeGirl]

We all face prejudices because of the way we look. It's how humans work. It explains why we dress up for interviews and feel awkward when we show up some place under-dressed. However, I know that certain groups receive way more unpleasant and often unwarranted stereotypes than others. Minorities and the overweight, for instance. These groups face a lot of blatant discrimination in our society.

That being said, I don't think we should be concentrating on making sure we have enough ethnic groups in college classes. Instead, we should make caveats for anyone of a lower socioeconomic group, regardless of their skin color. I remember the guy that lived across from me in my college dorm was a very smart guy, but he grew up in a not so great part of LA. He did very well, but his school did not have the opportunities that mine did in a suburb in northern CA. He happened to be African American, but anyone who lived in that neighborhood would have faced similar difficulties.

I really believe we should be making the lower levels of public schooling, from pre-school to high school, more equal for all our students. All public schools should offer advanced level classes. We should be doing more to ensure children of all races don't go hungry. There should be more opportunities for those who want to attend college but can't afford it.

The fact that our society still discriminates against the minorities and makes it sometimes prohibitively expensive to attend college for a lot of the lower classes means we lose out on the skills and knowledge of certain groups of people from being useful to our culture.

 

[Passion4Sci]

We all face prejudices because of the way we look. It's how humans work. It explains why we dress up for interviews and feel awkward when we show up some place under-dressed. However, I know that certain groups receive way more unpleasant and often unwarranted stereotypes than others. Minorities and the overweight, for instance. These groups face a lot of blatant discrimination in our society.

That being said, I don't think we should be concentrating on making sure we have enough ethnic groups in college classes. Instead, we should make caveats for anyone of a lower socioeconomic group, regardless of their skin color. I remember the guy that lived across from me in my college dorm was a very smart guy, but he grew up in a not so great part of LA. He did very well, but his school did not have the opportunities that mine did in a suburb in northern CA. He happened to be African American, but anyone who lived in that neighborhood would have faced similar difficulties.

I really believe we should be making the lower levels of public schooling, from pre-school to high school, more equal for all our students. All public schools should offer advanced level classes. We should be doing more to ensure children of all races don't go hungry. There should be more opportunities for those who want to attend college but can't afford it.

The fact that our society still discriminates against the minorities and makes it sometimes prohibitively expensive to attend college for a lot of the lower classes means we lose out on the skills and knowledge of certain groups of people from being useful to our culture.

I assume you're still in California.

California is blessed with some of the most amazing financial aid in the country, most of it aimed at lower-income, SES-disadvantaged folks.

The only excuse for someone who grows up in the ghetto of Los Angeles proper to not get an education is laziness, pure and simple. From the Board of Governors fee waiver to CalWORKS/CalGRANT A and B and Perkins/Stafford (federal) programs, there's really NO shortage of money.

but, we all know that URMs and even white folks like me who grow up in disadvantaged areas don't just need money, Farscapegirl, they need opportunity. Environment is the worst thing to overcome, moreso than skin color, growing up in a bad area. Falling into the wrong crowd, getting into illicit substances, and general carousing/trouble-making (i.e., bad friends) is what starts folks on the path to loserdom.

And let's face it, some people just don't want to be successful. People enjoy being lazy. TV, video games, you name it.

As far as making sure people don't go hungry, well, I posit that would belong in a whole other thread that might become a huge animal because of how heated that debate is. I won't even touch that one.

And it seems, even in crappy Sacramento high schools, that very, very advanced classes are taught. When I was in high school (class of 99...), no one took Calculus. I was home-schooled Freshman/Sophomore year then went to "bona fide" HS for Jr/Sr. AP didn't exist, and the highest math was Pre-Calc. Now, HS students here can take Linear freakin' Algebra if they feel so inclined. And that's not at a posh, picky upper crust HS.

Things are changing, slowly.

 

[AdamSanders]

I supposed you havent had some of the real life experiences some of us have faced. Its so easy to say Affirmative action sucks, but if u were in some of our shoes right now, You would understand what it means to be judged everywhere you go by the color of your skin.

Try being a white kid growing up in a ghetto neighborhood with nearly all black and hispanic residents. I don't think black kids growing up in suburbs get jumped and robbed based on their color, but a white kid in my neighborhood did. My friend was robbed at gun point right next to me, and guess why it happened? Yep, because we were white. Oh, let me guess, we are just being racist and guessing that's the reason why it happened, huh? Nope, the kid told us.

So yeah, some white people do know what it is like to be judged based on the color of our skin. And so if it was a tie between me and a well-off URM, he should get the nod based solely on the color of his skin? Just doesn't seem right to me.

 

[AdamSanders]

We all face prejudices because of the way we look. It's how humans work. It explains why we dress up for interviews and feel awkward when we show up some place under-dressed. However, I know that certain groups receive way more unpleasant and often unwarranted stereotypes than others. Minorities and the overweight, for instance. These groups face a lot of blatant discrimination in our society.

And I am overweight, so I hope they took note of that during my interview and gave me brownie points

 

[jasonbourne]

Try being a white kid growing up in a ghetto neighborhood with nearly all black and hispanic residents. I don't think black kids growing up in suburbs get jumped and robbed based on their color, but a white kid in my neighborhood did. My friend was robbed at gun point right next to me, and guess why it happened? Yep, because we were white. Oh, let me guess, we are just being racist and guessing that's the reason why it happened, huh? Nope, the kid told us.

So yeah, some white people do know what it is like to be judged based on the color of our skin. And so if it was a tie between me and a well-off URM, he should get the nod based solely on the color of his skin? Just doesn't seem right to me.

If there is a tie btw you and a URM, In most cases, the URM would get the nod. This is so because the admissions commitee recognizes the numerous obstacles URM's have to face. Poverty, lack of jobs, Drug and sexual Abuse, etc. Many people dont understand this and would always say that racism does not exist. Unless you are a URM, you might not be able to understand. LEt me give you this assignment. Go to any black or hispanic friend you have and ask them how the society has treated them in different aspects. Some of their experiences would bring tears to your eyes.

It is also offensive for people to assume that URM's are not qualified for admissions but always get accepted. That is not true.

URM's GET ACCEPTED ONLY WHEN THERE IS A TIE.
a LOT OF PEOPLE ARE MAKING BASELESS ASSUMPTIONS AND DONT EVEN UNDERSTAND THE CIRCUMSTANCES UNDER WHICH AFFIRMATIVE ACTION APPLIES.

-At 7 years old, I was attacked by some people and they kept calling me the N-word.

-I went to get a job at the math lab but they didnt grant it to me. They said I needed cal III. At that time, I had just cal I and Cal II. I came back later and found that they had employed a white girl who had just precalculus!!! I confronted the person to whom I applied and i told them straight up that what they did is discrimination.

-some dude refused that i should be his roomate. He told one of his friends that i am a thug!!! Why would someone i dont know just assume that i am a thug due to the color of my skin.

-Anytime officers pull me over, they always try to look for excuses to search my car even though my insurance and registration are always in tact.

-My brother was arrested right before me for a crime he didnt commit. The judge dropped all the charges and said the police had no basis for arresting him.

-I couldnt see my ex girlfriend just because her grand parents lived with them, and they couldnt stand colored people. I was threatened by her dad one day.

I could keep going on and on but i was just giving you a minor glimpse of what some of us have to deal with everyday. There are many other experiences i have had but i cant list all.

I have gone through a lot in life. Many people cant stand what i have been through. So we all must understand that affirmative action was designed to address such problems and help inspire all kids on earth that they can achieve whatever they want.

 

[jasonbourne]

Try being a white kid growing up in a ghetto neighborhood with nearly all black and hispanic residents. I don't think black kids growing up in suburbs get jumped and robbed based on their color, but a white kid in my neighborhood did. My friend was robbed at gun point right next to me, and guess why it happened? Yep, because we were white. Oh, let me guess, we are just being racist and guessing that's the reason why it happened, huh? Nope, the kid told us.

So yeah, some white people do know what it is like to be judged based on the color of our skin. And so if it was a tie between me and a well-off URM, he should get the nod based solely on the color of his skin? Just doesn't seem right to me.

This can all be blamed on the media. The media has potrayed the blacks and hispanics as Gangsters and thugs and we all know it. The media gives the impression that black men are scary, always do drugs, drop out of school, are heavily armed. By the way, we get shot at more than any other group in the world. Did u see the incident that occured recently in oakland where a guy was mudered. There is absolutely no reason why that officer shot him. All these stereotypes have created the negative impact in socioeconomic status of minorities. This is the reason why adcoms are trying to help reduce this huge disparity.

However i must agree with you on one thing you said.

"So yeah, some white people do know what it is like to be judged based on the color of our skin."

 

[Passion4Sci]

This can all be blamed on the media. The media has potrayed the blacks and hispanics as Gangsters and thugs and we all know it. The media gives the impression that black men are scary, always do drugs, drop out of school, are heavily armed. By the way, we get shot at more than any other group in the world. Did u see the incident that occured recently in oakland where a guy was mudered. There is absolutely no reason why that officer shot him. All these stereotypes have created the negative impact in socioeconomic status of minorities. This is the reason why adcoms are trying to help reduce this huge disparity.

However i must agree with you on one thing you said.

"So yeah, some white people do know what it is like to be judged based on the color of our skin."

In the world, huh?

 

[jasonbourne]

It's only anecdotal, but because I have witnessed it first hand, just as you've witnessed hard-working URMs who can't achieve what they want because of SES.

You're taking it personally because you are a URM, and if you'd read all of my posts instead of isolating one for your own purposes, you'd know that I acknowledged throughout that the military is very diverse. How could it be diverse if there were no URMs? This does not pass a logic test.

You are writing your reply with a knee-jerk, gut reaction and it shows.

I was taking a multi-culturality class a couple semesters ago, and I remember Colin Powell (And oddly enough, Barack Obama) coming up in class. Almost without question, the African-American students sneered at the mere mention of his name, saying such things as, "That white-washed ni**er isn't even close to being Black."

As a black man yourself, Jasonbourne (The coolest white cat I know, btw!), I'd like to know why you don't feel like your brethren in my class, who find "white-washed" black folks to be "not black" due to their success and/or opting-out of cultural activities in favor of "white" ones.

I am quite sure it varies state to state, but in California, while it most certainly is not written anywhere, there is an expectation on behalf of URMs that, if they get pretty decent grades, they can "ride the system." Is every URM like this? Hell no, of course not, and nowhere did I say that EVERY URM "rides the system."

My contention is that there should not be a system to ride. Like I've said, time and time again, I lived and played in the same ghetto, drug- and gang-infested place that hundreds, nay thousands, of URMs did, and do I get the same benefit of the doubt that they might in school with equal credentials to mine? Nah, 'course not, because people look at me and think "Hm, a white boy wearing a Ralph Lauren with Brooks Brothers shoes, he's gotta have rich parents" just like they look at a highly-achieving URM and say, "Man, that guy must've really pulled himself up by his bootstraps to get where he is today, I bet his people are proud of him."

Don't believe that stuff is said? Spend 6 hours at just about any human services agency and you'll hear enough it'll make you SICK to your stomach.

Fact: High-achieving Whites have this expected of them, and when they don't achieve, something went wrong.
Fact: High-achieving minorities are commended, lauded, and down-right idolized (almost to the point of offending them). This doesn't apply to Asians, as they are "the model minority" and success is, too, expected of them.

I remember our instructor split the clase onto two sides. One side, she asked students who identified themselves as "white" to stand. The other side, you guessed it, had anyone who identified themselves as "minority." She then asked a series of questions, and the idea was, afetr each question was read, you stepped forward if you'd ever heard/experienced a thing like that in your life. When she read the question, "Someone in my life has told me that I make my people proud", almost without exception, minorities stepped forward, while not a SINGLE white person did.

Why is that, do you think?

Food for thought.

I agree to 80% of your post. I remember a time when a lot of African Americans were still curious about OBAMA. When i hung out with fella brothers, many of them werent going to vote for him. It happens. The reason is because many brothers like people they can relate to.
For instance bill clinton is very popular among blacks because of his life story. He grew up poor and faced a lot of the problems URMs face today. This enabled him to connect with my fella brothers. When Barack came, many were not sure what to think of him. However I appologize if i came up too strong in my initial response. We have all learned a lot from this discussion.

 

[jasonbourne]

And I am overweight, so I hope they took note of that during my interview and gave me brownie points

Hilarious

 

[iBeast]

I agree to 80% of your post. I remember a time when a lot of African Americans were still curious about OBAMA. When i hung out with fella brothers, many of them werent going to vote for him. It happens. The reason is because many brothers like people they can relate to.
For instance bill clinton is very popular among blacks because of his life story. He grew up poor and faced a lot of the problems URMs face today. This enabled him to connect with my fella brothers. When Barack came, many were not sure what to think of him. However I appologize if i came up too strong in my initial response. We have all learned a lot from this discussion.

Hmm I may not be accurate on the statistics, but I hear 99.9% of black people voted for Obama? Or something along those numbers.

Oh and to correct your statement earlier, black people may get shot at the most in America, not the world, but black people also shoot the most as well, and most of their violence goes unreported.

Blaming the media would be the easy way out...lets not go there.

And as for URM's...trust me bro, it happens when there isn't a tie. A urm with a 3.6 GPA and a regular guy with a 3.7 GPA, everything else being equal, the URM will get the nod. You may feel offended because you are a URM, but so am I because I am Asian..and we have to compete hardest out of everyone to have a seat in class. And the sad thing about it is it's expected.

 

[poorlilrich]

I've been lurking on SDN for a few weeks now and the reason I'm posting is because I feel strongly about this subject. I'm an African, but I've been in the United States for so long (8 years) that I have become Americanized. Unless I tell them otherwise, most people would think I'm just another African American male. I just recently decided to pursue pharmacy as a career, so I'm still reading up on the process and everything.

I may be the minority here, but I think affirmative action is great thing for pharmacy schools to implement. It promotes diversity and encourages the minorities to get into fields they would have not otherwise considered. On the flip side, it also motivates the overly represented minorities to work harder. In my opinion affirmative action should only be applied when the two applicants have identical or very similar stats.

There has to be a way to choose an applicant over another when they have identical stats; I mean they can't just throw the names in a hat and choose randomly. This is where the Universities should use affirmative action. The selection of those few African American, Native American or Mexican student over the Caucasian or Asian (with similar stats) does wonders for the school environment and dynamics. When I get into pharmacy school I dont want to deal with the same types of people daily; it makes for a monotonous school life.

This works both ways; the predominantly African American schools should employ the same techniques when choosing between an African American and a Caucasian or Asian with similar stats. They should select the white or Asian candidate because it ups the variability of the school, which in turn makes for a better environment for both teachers and students.

Let's not forget the assumption that the students up for admission have identical stats and there is no major way to differentiate between the resumes except for race. If one of the students is clearly more qualified than the other, he/she should definitely get in over their counterpart.

 

[ThinkTooMuch]

i r lost hope.

 

[Passion4Sci]

i r lost hope.

"Pi are not round, pi r square."

"Pi r round"

"No, Pi r 2 squared"

 

[ThinkTooMuch]

plz mister, can i has that yummy piez?

 

[poorlilrich]

"professor please interdict the allocation of this confection to those unbefitting simpletons over hither"

 

[jasonbourne]

Hmm I may not be accurate on the statistics, but I hear 99.9% of black people voted for Obama? Or something along those numbers.

Oh and to correct your statement earlier, black people may get shot at the most in America, not the world, but black people also shoot the most as well, and most of their violence goes unreported.

Blaming the media would be the easy way out...lets not go there.

And as for URM's...trust me bro, it happens when there isn't a tie. A urm with a 3.6 GPA and a regular guy with a 3.7 GPA, everything else being equal, the URM will get the nod. You may feel offended because you are a URM, but so am I because I am Asian..and we have to compete hardest out of everyone to have a seat in class. And the sad thing about it is it's expected.

Look at the statistics of any school you want. Asians make up 5% of US population but usually consists of at least 15-30% of most pharm and med schools. It is a fact that you can check. This is a pretty good advantage that you should be happy about. Got to UT austins website or UH or A&M. It is clear that they make up a majority pharm or med school students when you consider their proportion in the US population. However, you cant keep assuming that URMs dont perform as much as you guys do. There are also many other URMs that perform as good or better than the average.. By the way, it is funny that you hear that 99.9% voted Obama but you cant check it yourself. Obama got 92% of the black vote. John kerry had 90% and Al Gore also had about 90%. I dont see what you are trying to imply but you should know that almost all blacks in America are Democrats.

Note: I must agree with you that asians are a minority in USA, but they are not underepresented when it comes to health profession schools (pharm or med school). Its a fact.

 

[Deja]

Look at the statistics of any school you want. Asians make up 5% of US population but usually consists of at least 15-30% of most pharm and med schools. It is a fact that you can check. This is a pretty good advantage that you should be happy about. Got to UT austins website or UH or A&M. It is clear that they make up a majority pharm or med school students when you consider their proportion in the US population. However, you cant keep assuming that URMs dont perform as much as you guys do. There are also many other URMs that perform as good or better than the average.. By the way, it is funny that you hear that 99.9% voted Obama but you cant check it yourself. Obama got 92% of the black vote. John kerry had 90% and Al Gore also had about 90%. I dont see what you are trying to imply but you should know that almost all blacks in America are Democrats.

Note: I must agree with you that asians are a minority in USA, but they are not underepresented when it comes to health profession schools (pharm or med school). Its a fact.

asians may not be under-represented in the health profession( i dont know, and i really don't want to google and check your stats), but all iBeast was saying is that schools often require Asians to have better grade than others to be accepted, which is also a fact (at least according to a documentary I watched in a class)... and I don't know why you guys are talking about who voted for obama... also, another reason why Asians aren't under-represented might be because most Asian are studying in the science related fields

and damn, i was looking through the thread trying to see why is this thread so off-topic, and i see that all it took was some1 asking if the poster was a minority... jesus

 

[jasonbourne]

asians may not be under-represented in the health profession( i dont know, and i really don't want to google and check your stats), but all iBeast was saying is that schools often require Asians to have better grade than others to be accepted, which is also a fact (at least according to a documentary I watched in a class)... and I don't know why you guys are talking about who voted for obama... also, another reason why Asians aren't under-represented might be because most Asian are studying in the science related fields

and damn, i was looking through the thread trying to see why is this thread so off-topic, and i see that all it took was some1 asking if the poster was a minority... jesus

hahaha. Its funny how i sometimes get off topic

 

[pharmplz11]

...