Don't lost hope

[missy1984]

Caucasian women benefit the most from Affirmative Action! If anything it does not do enough. If you were passed over because you think its due to Affirmative Action maybe you didn't work hard enough. To my understanding Affirmative Action does not work by allowing someone less qualified pass. It may give you an edge if being compared to a candidate who has similar if not identical stat.

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[Passion4Sci]

BUT the hope is that it will inspire many younger African Americans to strive to become doctors or pharmacists so in the future,

Certainly, I would hate for your "OC Girl" example not to get into Pharmacy school despite her inferior grades just so that California can have an African-American Pharmacist that might or might not encourage other young African-Americans to pursue Pharmacy. Yes, that'd be a true heartbreak.

I don't understand the problem here, because I don't think the issue of parity is that much of a problem. If 9/10 of Pharmacists are White or Asian, who cares? 9/10 of NBA basketball allstars are African-American, but do you see affirmative action encouraging white players to step up? When I was growing up, all I wanted to do was play for the NBA, but there weren't enough white basketball players for me to look up to, so I stopped running laps and started reading science books.

This is a poor example (Professional sports vs. Pharmacy) but it illustrates the vague concept behind your hypothesis, MRSASucks. That is, allowing slightly less-qualified folks into programs based on the completely impossible to measure of "hope" that African-Americans will idolize this young Pharmacist and say, "Damn right, I'm going to go to Pharmacy school now!"

Has anyone stopped to think for a moment's time that not everyone is interested in the same professions, based on culture and a myriad of other factors? There are fewer men in secretarial postions than women, not just because of society's engendered social mores, but also because men are not interested in that kind of work. Perhaps, on the whole, African-Americans are not interested in the kind of work that Pharmacists do. That's not a statement against African-Americans so please don't go calling me a racist.

Regardless, if my stats are identical to OC Girl, and my ECs are identical, then I sure as hell HOPE that the decision comes down to more than the fact she's black and I'm white.

I mean seriously.

 

[yellowtibby]

Sigh, I'm sorry to have sparked such heated debate. However, it is an important issue.

This is my opinion of the issue:

I often talk with people who are mad at situations where an African American student who lives in the OC and drives an Acura got into UCSF or another highly selective public school with subpar stats. I understand the outrage because if you are Asian or white, you probably won't be able to get into a school like UCSF if you don't have at least a 3.6+.

However, I believe that there is HUGE disparity in not only the type of acceptances, but also the applicant pool in terms of ethnicity. If you look at the pharmacy/med class at UCSD or UCSF the students are mainly white and Asian. This is a problem. The University of California, which is a PUBLIC institution and represents higher education in our great state, should have a student population that actually looks like the people of California. We are FAR from an equilibrium where every ethnicity is represented equally.

Now back to the example of the African American who lives in the OC and had many opportunities in her life:

Was it necessarily fair that she got in rather than the Asian who grew up poor but worked hard and had good grades? Perhaps not, BUT the hope is that it will inspire many younger African Americans to strive to become doctors or pharmacists so in the future, we can gauge an African American or Hispanic equally with an Asia or Caucasian in terms of academic success. Of course, this alone cannot fix this problem but it is ONE step. There needs to be new policies that increase better educational opportunities for URM in poor neighborhoods.

One good example is Barack Obama. Lets face it, although his family was poor when he was little, he did not exactly face obstacles that a typical black teenager has to face in the U.S. I mean comon, he grew up in Honolulu and went to top-notch private schools. (Occidental & Columbia) But the thing is, he will inspire many minorities to run for President in the future.

Look, this is a very controversial issue obviously. Everyone has to realize that life is not ideal and these mechanisms are in place to reach an IDEAL situation where we can gauge an URM with an Asian or Caucasian equally in terms of academic success in the future. Right now, we are caught up in that strive for idealness.

The problem with this current system is that Asians take nearly the FULL brunt of the discrimination that arises in affirmative action. How does it make sense to discriminate against a population (Asians) that are 1.) already a disadvantaged group that has traditionally been marginalized 2.) the smallest minority among the minority groups with the least political clout and support organization. This type of systems make Asians the major scapegoat while having minimal deleterious effects on the other groups. If you were to substitute one group of individuals for another (again this practice is debatable) wouldn't it make the most sense to use the group that has been the most established with the longest chance to build net wealth, inheritance, and integrate into the American way of life?

Why punish Asians, many whose parents are first generation immigrants (Asian immigration wave happened in late 70's 80's and early 90's) and can't speak english? I would think they are the most vulnerable. People often say "oh it's ok they are the model minority" Problem is that, labeling them as the model minority is another racist scheme to discount the actual discrimination many Asians face on a day to day basis.

 

[MRSA Sucks]

The problem with this current system is that Asians take nearly the FULL brunt of the discrimination that arises in affirmative action. How does it make sense to discriminate against a population (Asians) that are 1.) already a disadvantaged group that has traditionally been marginalized 2.) the smallest minority among the minority groups with the least political clout and support organization. This type of systems make Asians the major scapegoat while having minimal deleterious effects on the other groups. If you were to substitute one group of individuals for another (again this practice is debatable) wouldn't it make the most sense to use the group that has been the most established with the longest chance to build net wealth, inheritance, and integrate into the American way of life?

Why punish Asians, many whose parents are first generation immigrants (Asian immigration wave happened in late 70's 80's and early 90's) and can't speak english? I would think they are the most vulnerable. People often say "oh it's ok they are the model minority" Problem is that, labeling them as the model minority is another racist scheme to discount the actual discrimination many Asians face on a day to day basis.

Hello,

Congrats on going to UConn BTW! I know, I know. I'm Asian American and my parents didn't know how to speak English.

The point I was trying to make is that yes, it is probably unfair. It's just we are caught up in this strife for idealness. I just happen to believe the mechanism is the correct one despite it being unfair to Asians and Caucasians sometimes. That's just life. Also, Asians don't lobby enough to make a political impact. It's not necessarily because they are discriminated against that they have no political influence - Asians just don't lobby enough.

 

[Passion4Sci]

Hello,

Congrats on going to UConn BTW! I know, I know. I'm Asian American and my parents didn't know how to speak English.

The point I was trying to make is that yes, it is probably unfair. It's just we are caught up in this strife for idealness. That's just life.

"Idealness" based on whose definition of "ideal"?

 

[aboveliquidice]

***************** ATTENTION POSTERS *****************

Please keep posting civil - this is a VERY touchy subject - please use caution and respect the position of others (even if you do not agree with them).

Feel free to share your opinions - but remember, you are responsible for the content of your words - Use tact in your responses...

 

[MRSA Sucks]

"Idealness" based on whose definition of "ideal"?

As I posted above:

Look, this is a very controversial issue obviously. Everyone has to realize that life is not ideal and these mechanisms are in place to reach an IDEAL situation where we can gauge an URM with an Asian or Caucasian equally in terms of academic success in the future. Right now, we are caught up in that strive for idealness.

 

[165007]

Wow, is this what America has to look forward to? I am a black male myself, and to be honest, have never lived in the ghetto or any other poverty struck environment, but my parents were not rich and they had not gone to college. In fact, because of my athletic abilities, my parents generally assumed I would get a basketball or volleyball scholarship, but that all changed when I developed heart problems. Luckily I got academic scholarships so, tuition was paid for, but if I didn't have the money, working 40 hours a week and taking on 16 credits a semester would have meant another drop out. Most URM don't have the money because their parents didn't have the money to go to college and their parents' parents didn't have the money and sure as hell their parents' parents' parents didnt have the money or were not allowed to recieve education, so for someone to come on this forum and blast URMs for getting a little assistance when paying for college after x amount of years of oppression and having to live in places like ghettos and slum neighborhorhoods is appalling.

I'm all about carrying your weight and quite frankly, I wish Affirmative action would go away period, because even with good intentions, it does nothing but make minorities look bad and give non-minorities a scapegoat when they have a problem because a a minority got a position over someone else. Maybe that person was more qualified than you, maybe they gave a little extra at the interview, you never know, but don't go around demeaning a group of people because the government has it screwed up.

And Passion4sci those comments were uncalled for by the way. How dare you slander minorities like that! Extremely unprofessional and juvenile. my gpa may not be 3.85 with a 90 PCAT but I know I'm compotent, and very skilled and never in a day in my life have I EVER blamed my poor grades on "being black and held down by the man". I've been working my butt off in the lab, got a paper out and working on a second, so no laziness here. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and not call you a RACIST and say that you are inexperienced with and ignorant to URM. Like my mother always says, you never know until the shoe is on the other foot.

LOL I am sure you are! I laughed so hard when I read this.

 

[Kruton]

Caucasian women benefit the most from Affirmative Action! If anything it does not do enough. If you were passed over because you think its due to Affirmative Action maybe you didn't work hard enough. To my understanding Affirmative Action does not work by allowing someone less qualified pass. It may give you an edge if being compared to a candidate who has similar if not identical stat.

Oh my god. Please tell me you will never be my or any of my friend's or family's pharmacist.

If that is your line of thinking maybe the minorities should just "work harder".

 

[Passion4Sci]

As I posted above:

Look, this is a very controversial issue obviously. Everyone has to realize that life is not ideal and these mechanisms are in place to reach an IDEAL situation where we can gauge an URM with an Asian or Caucasian equally in terms of academic success in the future. Right now, we are caught up in that strive for idealness.

Oh, by "gauge" you mean compare, right?

For example, by allowing under-represented minorities into institutions where they otherwise would not be able to attend for whatever reason, we're gathering data with which we can compare equally across race and eliminate the need for any sort of racial questions?

Did I pretty much get your hypothesis correct there?

 

[missy1984]

Oh my god. Please tell me you will never be me or any of my friend's or family's pharmacist.

If that is your line of thinking maybe the minorities should just "work harder".

Read it again. If you think you were passed over for a minority you should work harder...that is usually a cope out excuse for someone who didn't get in...because i wasn't a minority ...please!

 

[Passion4Sci]

Read it again. If you think you were passed over for a minority you should work harder...that is usually a cope out excuse for someone who didn't get in...because i wasn't a minority ...please!

This is a very juvenile argument, though.

There are several instances where you will find very equally matched, qualified students applying for a limited number of seats, and oftentimes, the only discerning qualification ends up being one's race over the other.

In your case, where a white student with, say, a 3.4 GPA, a 50 PCAT, and no ECs gets passed over for a URM with a 3.79, 80 PCAT and 3 years of experience who then complains about being passed over "because the other guy was URM", well of course that's just a line of BS. Obviously.

But far more nebulous are the myriad cases where you'll have VERY evenly matched applicants who go head-to-head, and the URM wins on the basis of "creating a more ideal or well balanced pharmacy school" who otherwise would not have gotten the seat.

I don't think anyone's willing to sit here and say that the white dude in my example above would be at ALL justified in his complaint. But how about an evenly matched white candidate? What is your justification then about why he didn't get the seat, assuming he interviewed at least as well as the URM?

 

[MRSA Sucks]

Oh, by "gauge" you mean compare, right?

For example, by allowing under-represented minorities into institutions where they otherwise would not be able to attend for whatever reason, we're gathering data with which we can compare equally across race and eliminate the need for any sort of racial questions?

Did I pretty much get your hypothesis correct there?

No, I mean:

Right now when we compare academic success between an Asian/Caucasian with that of a Hispanic/African American, usually the Asian/Caucasian will have more success right? There is a disparity.

Ideally, we want to strive for a situation that when we compare races, everyone will be more or less on the same level academically. We want to close the gap.

Allowing URM into institutions (even though they may not have great stats) is a mechanism to get to that ideal situation since it will inspire the younger generation of URMs to have an outlook where they believe they can be health care professionals as well. That way, when these younger generation URMs apply to professional school, they will have stats comparable with Asians/Caucasians. That way things are ideal.

 

[Pharmdapp87]

LOL I am sure you are! I laughed so hard when I read this.

LOL oops, spell check fail. Competent, you happy? competent... Gosh, you spell a few words wrong and someone's calling you out... I'm a scientist not, an English major lol!



SCRUBS IS ON!!!!!

 

[Passion4Sci]

No, I mean:

Right now when we compare academic success between an Asian/Caucasian with that of a Hispanic/African American, usually the Asian/Caucasian will have more success right? There is a disparity.

Ideally, we want to strive for a situation that when we compare races, everyone will be more or less on the same level academically.

Allowing URM into institutions (even though they may not have great stats) is a mechanism to get to that ideal situation since it will inspire the younger generation of URMs to have an outlook where they believe they can be health care professionals as well.

You don't think that this is more of a band-aid than an actual fix to the problem? In my opinion, this is a systemic issue, and introducing dozens of URM Pharmacists into the field will not make a dent in the issues we face as a society in terms of "equalizing the races."

Would you care to respond to my analogy, to wit, NBA players more often than not being African-American, and why there isn't a "URM" inlet for white players? I mean, not to be glib, but think about your hypothesis in something other than health care. How many children look up at NBA players (Wheaties, hello?) and say, "I wanna be like Mike", except Mike isn't white, he's black, so that might discourage the little boys from following their dreams of pro-ball. By your reckoning, the NBA oughta let less-qualified players onto the teams in order to strive for some hypothetical "ideality".

 

[MRSA Sucks]

You don't think that this is more of a band-aid than an actual fix to the problem? In my opinion, this is a systemic issue, and introducing dozens of URM Pharmacists into the field will not make a dent in the issues we face as a society in terms of "equalizing the races."

Would you care to respond to my analogy, to wit, NBA players more often than not being African-American, and why there isn't a "URM" inlet for white players? I mean, not to be glib, but think about your hypothesis in something other than health care. How many children look up at NBA players (Wheaties, hello?) and say, "I wanna be like Mike", except Mike isn't white, he's black, so that might discourage the little boys from following their dreams of pro-ball. By your reckoning, the NBA oughta let less-qualified players onto the teams in order to strive for some hypothetical "ideality".

I appreciate your NBA analogy. I understand what you're trying to say.

You can't compare the two. Health care and entertainment are not comparable in these terms. Less URMs in health care professions equate to poor care in minority populations which is one reason why there is a ridiculously large prevalence of certain diseases in African American/Hispanic populations.

As for the NBA, if say there are no white players, there won't be a life or death impact.

As for your band-aid analogy, this I understand and this is where a lot of the controversy lies. People often question if this is the right mechanism or not. In my opinion, I believe it is the correct mechanism if it is supplemented with far reaching political reforms in which there are better educational opportunities for URMs.

Thanks for your input.

 

[GatorRomp]

What I have an issue with is someone I grew up with getting a slot in a pharmacy program based on the fact that he or she is a URM, not based on the fact of merit.

Here you are generalizing! Your friend Miguel may be a specific example and he did not apply to pharmacy school.

Assuming we applied to the same Pharmacy school right now, despite me always having better grades, despite me always working when he'd go out partying, despite me putting forth my best efforts and coming prepared with a 3.73 cumulative 3.85 sci gpa, he might get the nod over me with a more modest 3.2 or 3.1, or even worse, based on the fact that he is a URM.

Oh my! Your last sentence is so full of ad hominem assumptions that it would be easy to see what adcoms would glean fairly quickly from your personality: lack of empathy and entitlement.

To say things like Gator did, where URMs are possibly working to support a family and going to school I respond with "Isn't everyone else?"

I respect your argument, however, you took mine out of context. I posted several links up there; I hope you delve a bit in the snapshot of what became of these individuals who were minorities and had excellent grades in spite of their overwhelming challenges!

Here, I post them again for your pleasure:

Dr. Benjamin Carson is a Neurosurgeon at Johns Hopkins!

Dr. Alefredo Quinones is a Neurosurgeon at Johns Hopkins!

URMs deserve no more special treatment than I do for doing what I have done in my life. As white people, as the "majority" (Which is changing...), we see everything with our white lens of privilege, this is true. I won't dispute that, when I am trying to get a job, the fact that I'm white might be of benefit to me over an equally-qualified minority just because he's a minority. I'm not blind to that fact, but I don't think the answer is letting URMs into professional schools (ANd graduate schools alike) in an effort to even that disparity out.

Look around you, what is the student ratio of your ethnicity to URM? All the interviews I attended, the ratio was a somber one at best. Stop assuming, please, that URM don't have the grades. On applications, just as you had to declare that you are white, minorities also had the same courtesy.

And for anyone out there thinking "Oh, he has no idea what it's like being around minorities" - Stop thinking that. There is no one more diverse place on this PLANET than the United States armed forces. Nowhere. I was bunked in Basic Training with guys from Harlem all the way to Anchorage. In Iraq, I fought alongside women from the self-labeled "pit of hell" and I fought alongside privileged "preppy white boys" from Palos Verdes or the Hamptons getting some life experience.

Then explain these:

Raising the flag on Iwo Jima

Raising the flag in New York

But Wait! You don't see URM screaming, I fought to save lives too.

Summary: I respect what you are trying to allude to. Your latest post made a convincing argument that you seem genuine and that you value fairness. However, the ratio suggested above may suggest a different story in reality. In fact, the opposite may be true: most minorities may have to show higher scores (as you mentioned above). Furthermore, you are really competing with every student and your slippery slope contributes to more of the same flawed reasoning.

I still think this thread is a troll.

 

[missy1984]

This is a very juvenile argument, though.

There are several instances where you will find very equally matched, qualified students applying for a limited number of seats, and oftentimes, the only discerning qualification ends up being one's race over the other.

In your case, where a white student with, say, a 3.4 GPA, a 50 PCAT, and no ECs gets passed over for a URM with a 3.79, 80 PCAT and 3 years of experience who then complains about being passed over "because the other guy was URM", well of course that's just a line of BS. Obviously.

But far more nebulous are the myriad cases where you'll have VERY evenly matched applicants who go head-to-head, and the URM wins on the basis of "creating a more ideal or well balanced pharmacy school" who otherwise would not have gotten the seat.

I don't think anyone's willing to sit here and say that the white dude in my example above would be at ALL justified in his complaint. But how about an evenly matched white candidate? What is your justification then about why he didn't get the seat, assuming he interviewed at least as well as the URM?

Your first scenario is usually not the case. As far as the second, you actually stated it, the minority will bring diversity to the class therefore enhancing the academic experience of the student body. What is the justification to choose the white guy? If he is qualified he will get in somewhere. Again if they both have stellar stats then they both will get in. If the two candidates are being compared, its because the best have been selected and they down to the "maybes" ...hence the try harder statement. Its no different from preference to legacy students and instate students. Schools are going to do what will benefit them. Again this is all based on hypothetical situations. No one really knows why one applicant is being chosen over another. I just dont like the fact that people assume that affirmative action allows people who are not qualified to get in, which is not the case! Ideally affirmative action is supposed to imitate society. If minorities make up 25% of the population then 25% of the student body should be minorities. Obviously this is not true, based on what I have read, Asians are the majority in the schools that were mentioned.

 

[missy1984]

You don't think that this is more of a band-aid than an actual fix to the problem? In my opinion, this is a systemic issue, and introducing dozens of URM Pharmacists into the field will not make a dent in the issues we face as a society in terms of "equalizing the races."

Would you care to respond to my analogy, to wit, NBA players more often than not being African-American, and why there isn't a "URM" inlet for white players? I mean, not to be glib, but think about your hypothesis in something other than health care. How many children look up at NBA players (Wheaties, hello?) and say, "I wanna be like Mike", except Mike isn't white, he's black, so that might discourage the little boys from following their dreams of pro-ball. By your reckoning, the NBA oughta let less-qualified players onto the teams in order to strive for some hypothetical "ideality".

Again Affirmative action is not about letting less qualified people in !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[yellowtibby]

Caucasian women benefit the most from Affirmative Action! If anything it does not do enough. If you were passed over because you think its due to Affirmative Action maybe you didn't work hard enough. To my understanding Affirmative Action does not work by allowing someone less qualified pass. It may give you an edge if being compared to a candidate who has similar if not identical stat.

Read it again. If you think you were passed over for a minority you should work harder...that is usually a cope out excuse for someone who didn't get in...because i wasn't a minority ...please!

The problem with these statements is that, according to the admission profile for the University of Michigan, a lot of people did work harder. For example, The average SAT scores for admitted students at UMich are as follows: Asian 1400, White 1350, Hispanic 1260, Black 1160. Also the GPA trend is similar with Asians and Whites having GPAs of 3.8 and 3.9 respectively and Hispanic and Blacks having lower 3.6 and 3.4 respectively. Since UMich is a very competitive school I'm gonna assume most have decent EC's. With those stats, how could you tell someone to work harder? I'm pretty sure if you have a near 4.0 and 1300+ on the SATs that you've worked pretty hard in school.

http://www.debatingracialpreference.org/MCRI-CEO-reUM.htm

If you want more details there is the link.

 

[missy1984]

So we let less qualified b-ball players in, little white kids are not going to look up to someone getting their behind whipped all over the court so it would be pointless.

 

[missy1984]

The problem with these statements is that, according to the admission profile for the University of Michigan, a lot of people did work harder. For example, The average SAT scores for admitted students at UMich are as follows: Asian 1400, White 1350, Hispanic 1260, Black 1160. Also the GPA trend is similar with Asians and Whites having GPAs of 3.8 and 3.9 respectively and Hispanic and Blacks having lower 3.6 and 3.4 respectively. Since UMich is a very competitive school I'm gonna assume most have decent EC's. With those stats, how could you tell someone to work harder? I'm pretty sure if you have a near 4.0 and 1300+ on the SATs that you've worked pretty hard in school.

http://www.debatingracialpreference.org/MCRI-CEO-reUM.htm

If you want more details there is the link.

I see your point, but these stats don't give details about who was rejected. What i see is that the best were accepted and the majority of the best were white and Asian and then when it came down to the maybes the minorities were selected over the white people. So they were still qualified to get in. I see the unfairness, but if you 2 candidates with similar stats ...the benefit of the school comes into play.

 

[Deja]

I lost hope when i saw the title haha of this thread, and when this thread turned in to an affirmative action debate =/

OP got in to pharmacy schools is not entirely impossible, I mean we dont know who wrote his recommendation and what experience he had, or if he have a degree, which all could be major factors in getting in to pharmacy schools

 

[Pharmdapp87]

You don't think that this is more of a band-aid than an actual fix to the problem? In my opinion, this is a systemic issue, and introducing dozens of URM Pharmacists into the field will not make a dent in the issues we face as a society in terms of "equalizing the races."

Would you care to respond to my analogy, to wit, NBA players more often than not being African-American, and why there isn't a "URM" inlet for white players? I mean, not to be glib, but think about your hypothesis in something other than health care. How many children look up at NBA players (Wheaties, hello?) and say, "I wanna be like Mike", except Mike isn't white, he's black, so that might discourage the little boys from following their dreams of pro-ball. By your reckoning, the NBA oughta let less-qualified players onto the teams in order to strive for some hypothetical "ideality".

I see where you're going with this statement and it makes logical sense, but I think the only difference is in a society where Blacks make up a small percentage of the population having individuals who succeed and are doing well for themselves is something to look forward to. When only 19% of your race holds a Bachelors degree or higher it's easier to understand why the black community looks for heroes everywhere. You forget, basketball used to be dominated by Caucasians. Where did the drive to be a basketball star come from when the first black basketball player was dreaming to play in the NBA? I don't expect people to understand, but it is the reason.

 

[Passion4Sci]

Summary: I respect what you are trying to allude to. Your latest post made a convincing argument that you seem genuine and that you value fairness. However, the ratio suggested above may suggest a different story in reality. In fact, the opposite may be true: most minorities may have to show higher scores (as you mentioned above). Furthermore, you are really competing with every student and your slippery slope contributes to more of the same flawed reasoning.

I still think this thread is a troll.

I admire your very well put together reply above. For the sake of space, I'm going to reply to your points in this.

1. Isn't everything more or less based upon generalizations, Gator? Even your two fantastic examples of Neurosurgeons working in prestigious settings are specific examples that do not represent the majority, which can be as suspect as my hypothetical tit-for-tat with "OC Girl". I think to ignore the importance of generalization as a human basis for observation ignores social learning theory - That is to say, if Person A and Person B grow up in virtually the same circumstances, but Person A succeeds and Person B fails (or does not meet the same level of success that Person A does), why should race even enter the equation? Not withstanding MRSA's hypothesis that AA is good for "creating an ideal", to encourage more URMs to aspire to be pharmacists and to equal out the ratio of "ORM:URM", any sort of preferential treatment based on race is tantamount to the same discrimination that African-Americans decry about "driving while black." So, what am I doing, "Applying to Pharmacy School While White"?

2. An ad hominem attack is not the same as stating an observation or factual analysis. If I said, "Gator, you're stupid", I would be commiting the ad hominem logical fallacy. I am not attacking Miguel's person (Ad hominem means "at the person") or personality but rather am demonstrating the difference between my study habits and his (I stayed home and read, he came home drunk/still drinking, etc). To call this ad hominem seems to be a reach.

3. I have excellent grades and I am not a minority, but I might as well have been. Why isn't there a Hall of Achievement dedicated to white folks who grew up in the same circumstances as minorities and still managed to succeed? Oh, are we assuming white people are innately more able to succeed despite circumstances and therefore it doesn't need to be recognized?

4. I can't argue the fact that the ratio of Me-types to URM-types is low. That stands to reason on prima facie and I'd be a fool to attempt to rebut that (and you knew that by writing your statement in that way), HOWEVER, we're not addressing the question of why the disparity exists. Is it because well-qualified URMs are not chosen to attend schools because they're URMs, or is it because URMs automatically have the deck stacked against them and they don't even bother trying, or is it because URMs who have excellent qualifications go somewhere other than Pharmacy school? I don't think there are good answers for ANY of these questions.

5. You want me to explain two paintings done by presumably white men? Your rebuttal to my statement about the armed forces being a diverse culture in and of itself is a painting of Iwo Jima's flag-raising, and the flag-raising at the center of the WTC? C'mon, your logical capacity is obviously expansive enough to understand that 2 examples of something do not automatically mean that it is accurate or two. Furthermore, I fail to see what firefighters have to do with the military - While Fire Depts are paramilitary, they are far and away separated from the Armed Forces, please do not compare the two as you'll only embarass yourself. It is well known that many minorities participated in WWII (and were then subsequently discriminated against by the VA for the home loans in the late 40s/50s but that's a matter of public record and for one I don't think anyone is unapologetic for).

You're not really saying that the military of today is even remotely cross-sectioned like the military was in the '40s, are you?

Anyway, you're right, this thread does seem to be a troll, and I am sorry I got myself involved in it. We're obviously arguing in circles, so I guess the best course of action is to simply agree to disagree and go about our happy, merry pharmacological lives.

 

[GatorRomp]

I just want to remind everyone, as future pharmacists I ask that we keep the conversation civil and uphold the highest standard of professionalism we can as future professional. UF thought it was so important, we actually had to sign a professionalism form. There is nothing I hate the most than absolutely poor writing when a good argument on the merit is taking place. When writing, try to imagine yourself in a debate. Believe me, this forum can be a good starting point for good writing for your personal statement. We owe it to ourselves.

Passion4Sci, I appreciate your ideas even if we can agree to disagree (on the main issue). Carry on forum...

 

[Pharmdapp87]

So we let less qualified b-ball players in, little white kids are not going to look up to someone getting their behind whipped all over the court so it would be pointless.

LMAOI literally laughed when I saw this!

 

[Passion4Sci]

I just want to remind everyone, as future pharmacists I ask that we keep the conversation civil and uphold the highest standard of professionalism we can as future professional. UF thought it was so important, we actually had to sign a professionalism form. There is nothing I hate the most than absolutely poor writing when a good argument on the merit is taking place. When writing, try to imagine yourself in a debate. Believe me, this forum can be a good starting point for good writing for your personal statement. We owe it to ourselves.

Passion4Sci, I appreciate your ideas even if we can agree to disagree (on the main issue). Carry on forum...

I need to gig you here Gator. Check the bold. I couldn't resist! Your advice is sound, though.

Believe me, I know that I am going against the grain in my ideology when it comes to URMs and treatment thereof, and the reasons why I have gone into many times over again.

Good debate.

 

[pharmocist]

First of all I am not a TROLL....

I got into the following schools

Midwestern CCP
Midwestern Glendale
Washington State University
University of Appalachia

On Hold for

University of Charleston
MCPHS-Worchester

Alot of the school i applied to were private b/c i figured i those were my best chances

AND BTW--I am not a URM

 

[Kruton]

Your first scenario is usually not the case. As far as the second, you actually stated it, the minority will bring diversity to the class therefore enhancing the academic experience of the student body. What is the justification to choose the white guy? If he is qualified he will get in somewhere. Again if they both have stellar stats then they both will get in. If the two candidates are being compared, its because the best have been selected and they down to the "maybes" ...hence the try harder statement. Its no different from preference to legacy students and instate students. Schools are going to do what will benefit them.

Please inform me on how you know that just because someone's skin color is different they will bring diversity to the class. Maybe in 1965. I respectfully assert that your ideas are dated. Take a look at where I live. Supposedly, we are "terrible" about racism. Now, I do not know about where you live, but where I am from the students do not care about color. Now diversity isn't a bad thing, but maybe it should be different ways of thinking. Not appearance.

In response to "why choose the white guy?", I say why choose the Black/Hispanic/whatever guy? If the two are both "maybes" then why shouldn't both try harder?

And this is much different from legacy and instate students.

 

[Kruton]

First of all I am not a TROLL....

I got into the following schools

Midwestern CCP
Midwestern Glendale
Washington State University
University of Appalachia

On Hold for

University of Charleston
MCPHS-Worchester

Alot of the school i applied to were private b/c i figured i those were my best chances

AND BTW--I am not a URM

I may believe you if you care to elaborate on that long story you made short in the first post.

 

[MRSA Sucks]

I may believe you if you care to elaborate on that long story you made short in the first post.

Yeah, I would like to know too. If you had a 2.8 but a really high PCAT score (90+) than I can understand why you could have gotten in. But a 56 is not that high. You must have done something else crazy good since getting multiple admissions is unbelievable for those stats.

Congrats again!

 

[iBeast]

First of all I am not a TROLL....

I got into the following schools

Midwestern CCP
Midwestern Glendale
Washington State University
University of Appalachia

On Hold for

University of Charleston
MCPHS-Worchester

Alot of the school i applied to were private b/c i figured i those were my best chances

AND BTW--I am not a URM

Do you even know what an "URM" is? Serious question.

Thanks.

 

[studentvt07]

First of all I am not a TROLL....

I got into the following schools

Midwestern CCP
Midwestern Glendale
Washington State University
University of Appalachia

On Hold for

University of Charleston
MCPHS-Worchester

Alot of the school i applied to were private b/c i figured i those were my best chances

AND BTW--I am not a URM

My sincere apology to the OP.

To the rest of you guys, please don't hijack this thread and make it a URM thread. I recently made a thread just for this topic.

Cheers!

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=8075355#post8075355

 

[Kruton]

I am sure a spy will tell he is not a spy.

 

[goinkhead]

I applied to about 8 schools last year, most of them being in California...

All the schools I applied to had less than 10% URM. I would imagine that this is the case for most of the schools in the nation. Are there any schools actively practicing affirmative action? I think some people in this thread are bitter that they weren't accepted.

 

[bananaface]

When I checked the stats a couple of years ago, Hispanics were the only minority group underrepresented in pharmacy admissions. Blacks were represented just slightly above the percentage of the US population indicated in the last census. Asians were significantly above the per capita ratio. And, whites were very slightly under, but it was less than a percentage point so it isn't really much to whine about.

 

[missy1984]

I think some people in this thread are bitter that they weren't accepted.

and there you have it!

 

[missy1984]

Please inform me on how you know that just because someone's skin color is different they will bring diversity to the class. Maybe in 1965. I respectfully assert that your ideas are dated. Take a look at where I live. Supposedly, we are "terrible" about racism. Now, I do not know about where you live, but where I am from the students do not care about color. Now diversity isn't a bad thing, but maybe it should be different ways of thinking. Not appearance.

In response to "why choose the white guy?", I say why choose the Black/Hispanic/whatever guy? If the two are both "maybes" then why shouldn't both try harder?

And this is much different from legacy and instate students.

Yes, a "different skin color" does bring diversity because it more than skin color...its CULTURE..which is another topic.

 

[Dr.iz-n]

This is sad--here we are discussing all this crap about race and URMs, and the original name of this thread was "DON"T LOSE HOPE". But somehow we are on a discussion about affirmative action, racism, discrimination, etc.

Why do you all think such policies are in place at schools (i.e. affirmative action)? Because everyone knows that in our society many of our things are based on color and race, and so they have to put measures in place to try and get adequate representation from URMs. If they didn't, we all know what the outcome would be--a lack of diversity in our professional schools...

To assume that this person is a URM who had a low PCAT and lower GPA and was able to get into pharmacy is a typical stereotype. I just think that's very sad...

It's just like with the craiglist killer who was attending boston medical school. The media keeps saying he didn't fit the typical profile of a criminal--why? Because of his race? Was he suppose be an "uneducated minority" (sarcasm)? Was it Because he was in med school? Was it Because he was at a good medical school? Please...Sounds like he had a lot of issues to me as stuff comes out more...But I'm sure he had a high MCAT score, great GPA, etc, so they let him in (sarcasm). Yet there could have also still been a URM who had the SAME MCAT SCORE SAME GPA, etc, and still may not have gotten into the school because of their race...Whoever mentioned something earlier about white privelege had a good point...These types of conversations just tick me off because it shows we still have SO many underlying issues about race in our country. Get over yourselves, quit being pissy if you didn't get into pharmacy school, and don't worry about the next man, worry about yourself and how YOU'RE going to get into pharmacy school...Who cares at this point?

Can we please get back to stories about hope and inspiration (i.e, the ORIGINAL thoughts about this thread. Geez!)

When I checked the stats a couple of years ago, Hispanics were the only minority group underrepresented in pharmacy admissions. Blacks were represented just slightly above the percentage of the US population indicated in the last census. Asians were significantly above the per capita ratio. And, whites were very slightly under, but it was less than a percentage point so it isn't really much to whine about.

 

[MRSA Sucks]

This is sad--here we are discussing all this crap about race and URMs, and the original name of this thread was "DON"T LOSE HOPE". But somehow we are on a discussion about affirmative action, racism, discrimination, etc.

Why do you all think such policies are in place at schools (i.e. affirmative action)? Because everyone knows that in our society many of our things are based on color and race, and so they have to put measures in place to try and get adequate representation from URMs. If they didn't, we all know what the outcome would be--a lack of diversity in our professional schools...

To assume that this person is a URM who had a low PCAT and lower GPA and was able to get into pharmacy is a typical stereotype. I just think that's very sad...

It's just like with the craiglist killer who was attending boston medical school. The media keeps saying he didn't fit the typical profile of a criminal--why? Because of his race? Was he suppose be an "uneducated minority" (sarcasm)? Was it Because he was in med school? Was it Because he was at a good medical school? Please...Sounds like he had a lot of issues to me as stuff comes out more...But I'm sure he had a high MCAT score, great GPA, etc, so they let him in (sarcasm). Yet there could have also still been a URM who had the SAME MCAT SCORE SAME GPA, etc, and still may not have gotten into the school because of their race...Whoever mentioned something earlier about white privelege had a good point...These types of conversations just tick me off because it shows we still have SO many underlying issues about race in our country. Get over yourselves, quit being pissy if you didn't get into pharmacy school, and don't worry about the next man, worry about yourself and how YOU'RE going to get into pharmacy school...Who cares at this point?

Can we please get back to stories about hope and inspiration (i.e, the ORIGINAL thoughts about this thread. Geez!)

Discussing this issue is absolutely healthy. I'm not sure what you're upset about?

 

[yappy]

"so they have to put measures in place to try and get adequate representation from URMs. If they didn't, we all know what the outcome would be--a lack of diversity in our professional schools..." - Dr.iz-n

I disagree with this statement. I believe that URM would gain admission if they were qualified with out such programs. Is the fear that without AA students would be denied because they are ethnic - racism? If this is not the reason, the process should be based off what admissions believe to be the best pharmacy candidates.

 

[pharmady]

Are you going to a culture school or a pharmacy school? The point is to accept students who will be great pharmacists. If they happen to be from a certain ethnic background, cool! However, giving somebody an edge simply because of their SKIN color, or more politically correct ethnic background, is racist. People of all ethnic backgrounds have grown up in poor and discriminated areas, only some receive the benefit of the doubt.

Coming from an affluent community I know many affluent URM's who were admitted to schools or received scholarships they generally may not have received if they were not a URM. Another example is an african american kid who lived behind me. His parents were well off and lived in a nice house, he was kicked out of the state due to his gang activities. People from all walks of life have decisions to make.

About the griping Asain-Americans, I understand you may have come from a rough background. I sympathize that affirmative action policies discriminate against you. Part of my family (dad's side) immigrated to the US in the 1700's. They fought in the revolutionary war in order to be able to live in this country. Until my dad earned his two year degree from a community college, no one else on his side of the family went to college. He used to be the only working parent I had. His best friend came from similar circumstances and now does tech startups in Cali making 7 or more figures a year.

Your life is what you make of it. Be proud of your background and your cultural heritage! However, your cultural background should not be the deciding factor for admission when comparing to people of similar stats. Perhaps a unique story about someone's adverse background during an interview may be.

 

[OTFuturePharmD]

Isn't that a bit unfair of a statement? Pretty much everyone had sometype of diffculty in their lives. Asians have to meet and overcome the stereotypes "good at math/sci but not so much at english" and also the expectations of parents who overcame immigrating to the United States from a war-torn country with next to nothing. Many of these kids were given next to nothing while growing up, but were able to succeed through hard work and determination.
Caucasians are having to overcome reverse discrimination in order to get into schools, so their standards are set a bit higher. They obviously dont think this is fair, but thats how the rules are currently set. If they want to get into a school they have no choice but to work through that obstacle.

How is that statement unfair? It is a fact of my life.....I did not get into school because I am African American. I worked my butt off just like anyone else. No school showed me preference over white students because of affirmative action. Much of your statment can be labeled as blanket and general. I have met and gone to school with many people who have never had any difficulty in life and had things handed to them. I have met some minorities that have grown up with a silver spoon. But for every minority (not just AA) I have met like this, I have met 10 others who have lived very difficult and horrible lives. Yes, affirmative action has flaws that people are trying to fix. Let's be honest, with out it the majority of minorities would never have a chance. It is not due to lesser grades than white students, but because they may not have the connections or the financial resources. There are many schools who put all students with financial difficulties under minorities. Schools are very diligent. Schools work very hard to ensure that reverse discrimination does not happen. Some may say that is not true. If it is not, where are the statistics from the school administrations proving that affirmative action creates a vast incident of reverse discrimination. The point of affirmative action is to have places of learning that reflect society. With out it where would we be.

 

[pharmplz11]

...

 

[Dr.iz-n]

Healthy discussion, but I just think it's kinda messed up that someone is so bitter that they turn it into a race issue, when reallly that person may not have been qualifieid...No worries, just my opinion...That's what upsets me...If you weren't qualified and didn't get in, it is what it is...Don't turn it into "oh, this person is an URM, that's why I didn't get in" type of issue...Please...

Discussing this issue is absolutely healthy. I'm not sure what you're upset about?

 

[fhx06]

TL;DR version: I don't see how a minority with low stats deserve a spot in admissions just because of the color of their skin; patients generally don't give a crap. Being able to succeed and become competent healthcare professional whom we can trust people's lives to should be the guiding factor not the politics of race.


Affirmative action in professional schools is interesting. I think it's a very "slippery slop" argument when it comes to admissions into these schools only because of the intended outcome: a well-trained professional with the knowledge and capabilities to handle the lives entrusted to them in the future.

Any person can argue about how he or she is interested in pharmacy but when it comes right down to it, academics and experience along with the interview must be the deciding factor when it comes to admissions, not the color of a person's skin. The ability for a person to pass the rigorous courses and maintain composure during tough times far outweighs a person's skin color. In another context: a future patient generally could care less what color your skin is as long as the doctor/pharmacist/nurse can figure out how to make the person better.

Do I believe I automatically desire a spot in a school just because of my race when someone else has better stats than I do? No.

Do I believe I automatically desire a spot in a school even if my stats are similar to someone who is not a minority? No. I do believe, however, that I should have the same chances at an interview as this person; if this person is invited to an interview, why should I be passed over? Then, the task is up to the two of us to make an impression.

So what if the person has had a rough experience? What if the person had to work two jobs, raise a family, etc. while attending school and that is the reason why this person has low stats? Well, that is what the personal statements are for: tell your story.

If it is true that people who are mad are simply displacing their anger for being rejected, I think they should compare their stats with the average admitted stats of the school in question, not automatically assume it is a race issue.

 

[JTrue14]

How is that statement unfair? It is a fact of my life.....I did not get into school because I am African American. I worked my butt off just like anyone else. No school showed me preference over white students because of affirmative action. Much of your statment can be labeled as blanket and general. I have met and gone to school with many people who have never had any difficulty in life and had things handed to them. I have met some minorities that have grown up with a silver spoon. But for every minority (not just AA) I have met like this, I have met 10 others who have lived very difficult and horrible lives. Yes, affirmative action has flaws that people are trying to fix. Let's be honest, with out it the majority of minorities would never have a chance. It is not due to lesser grades than white students, but because they may not have the connections or the financial resources. There are many schools who put all students with financial difficulties under minorities. Schools are very diligent. Schools work very hard to ensure that reverse discrimination does not happen. Some may say that is not true. If it is not, where are the statistics from the school administrations proving that affirmative action creates a vast incident of reverse discrimination. The point of affirmative action is to have places of learning that reflect society. With out it where would we be.

Its an unfair statement because you said you worked twice as hard as everyone else. I was just saying other people in this country have had their problems and difficulties as well. To suggest that you worked twice as hard compared to other nationalities isn't right. There are plenty of other ethinicities that weren't given anything as well, but I'm sure they had to work their butts off as well to get where they are now.

 

[Kruton]

I have been reading these posts and I have got to say I am starting to think that college and pharmacy school will be easy if you can have extremely poor reading comprehension and logical thinking skills and still do well. Let me say again, NO ONE ASSUMED THE OP WAS A URM (and he/she even claims he/she isn't). I HAVE NOT FOUND ANYONE THAT HASN'T GOTTEN INTO PHARMACY SCHOOL AND IS BLAMING IT ON AFFIRMATIVE ACTION.

 

[iBeast]

This is sad--here we are discussing all this crap about race and URMs, and the original name of this thread was "DON"T LOSE HOPE". But somehow we are on a discussion about affirmative action, racism, discrimination, etc.

Why do you all think such policies are in place at schools (i.e. affirmative action)? Because everyone knows that in our society many of our things are based on color and race, and so they have to put measures in place to try and get adequate representation from URMs. If they didn't, we all know what the outcome would be--a lack of diversity in our professional schools...

To assume that this person is a URM who had a low PCAT and lower GPA and was able to get into pharmacy is a typical stereotype. I just think that's very sad...

It's just like with the craiglist killer who was attending boston medical school. The media keeps saying he didn't fit the typical profile of a criminal--why? Because of his race? Was he suppose be an "uneducated minority" (sarcasm)? Was it Because he was in med school? Was it Because he was at a good medical school? Please...Sounds like he had a lot of issues to me as stuff comes out more...But I'm sure he had a high MCAT score, great GPA, etc, so they let him in (sarcasm). Yet there could have also still been a URM who had the SAME MCAT SCORE SAME GPA, etc, and still may not have gotten into the school because of their race...Whoever mentioned something earlier about white privelege had a good point...These types of conversations just tick me off because it shows we still have SO many underlying issues about race in our country. Get over yourselves, quit being pissy if you didn't get into pharmacy school, and don't worry about the next man, worry about yourself and how YOU'RE going to get into pharmacy school...Who cares at this point?

Can we please get back to stories about hope and inspiration (i.e, the ORIGINAL thoughts about this thread. Geez!)

Are you mad brah? Or are you being fooled by the OP. I will educate you.

Notice the title of this thread. It is grammatically incorrect. The OP has stated he is not a URM, however we as doctors and scientist cannot assume that his answer is correct because we can't assume that the OP even knows what a URM is, much less a troll. It is widely assumed he is a URM base on his scores and his grammar and the fact that he has been accepted in more than one school. Yet he has failed to answer me when I asked him what a "URM" is.

Henceforth, the OP has yet to answer my question of what a URM is, I am highly disrespected.

Now to address your post Dirzn, the affirmative action and URM is not fair. It's either you're good or you're not. You have it or you don't. Not "Oh, 3.2 is not much worse than a 3.6 Asian kid, let's take this black/hispanic guy."

Check.