DOs that Matched Diagnostic Rads ACGME- Advice?

[mary3x]

Hi everyone,

M2 here and starting to think about what type of career I want to have in medicine. For DOs that have successfully matched to Diagnostic Rads is there any advice that you can offer? I know that I will need a Step 1 in the 240s. Is research an absolute requirement? My school does not really have any research opportunities so I'm a 0 for that. From reading online I think elective rotations/LOR are important.

Appreciate anything! thanks

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[kelminak]

Hi everyone,

M2 here and starting to think about what type of career I want to have in medicine. For DOs that have successfully matched to Diagnostic Rads is there any advice that you can offer? I know that I will need a Step 1 in the 240s. Is research an absolute requirement? My school does not really have any research opportunities so I'm a 0 for that. From reading online I think elective rotations/LOR are important.

Appreciate anything! thanks

I'm just an MS1 but I've read a boatload on it since I want to do rads too. From what I've gathered:

• 240 is not a hard cutoff. It's the average, but people are getting in below that. Below 230 would be a death sentence.
• You want research and every school has some sort of research. Even if you couldn't find rads research, research in anything would be better than nothing.
• Auditions aren't mandatory unless you're trying to break into a big name place. They're great if you have a good personality, otherwise they're a hindrance.

Someone else can feel free to chime in if they've read/know differently.

 

[NecrotizingFasciitis]

You should check out the Rads forum on here. There's some good info in there, including an interesting thread on whether you should do an audition rotation (amongst many other things.)

 

[DNC127]

I'm just an MS1 but I've read a boatload on it since I want to do rads too. From what I've gathered:

• 240 is not a hard cutoff. It's the average, but people are getting in below that. Below 230 would be a death sentence.
• You want research and every school has some sort of research. Even if you couldn't find rads research, research in anything would be better than nothing.
• Auditions aren't mandatory unless you're trying to break into a big name place. They're great if you have a good personality, otherwise they're a hindrance.

Someone else can feel free to chime in if they've read/know differently.

wrong. read charting outcomes.

75% chance of matching with USMLE 210-220 for DOs
83% chance of matching with USMLE 220-230 for DOs
90+% chance of matching for DO's with a 230+

Basically if you are a slightly above average student rads is a lock. If you are a below average student rads is still in play, just not a lock.

 

[Eyeh8bullies]

I'm just an MS1 but I've read a boatload on it since I want to do rads too. From what I've gathered:

• 240 is not a hard cutoff. It's the average, but people are getting in below that. Below 230 would be a death sentence.
• You want research and every school has some sort of research. Even if you couldn't find rads research, research in anything would be better than nothing.
• Auditions aren't mandatory unless you're trying to break into a big name place. They're great if you have a good personality, otherwise they're a hindrance.

Someone else can feel free to chime in if they've read/know differently.

wrong. read charting outcomes.

75% chance of matching with USMLE 210-220 for DOs
83% chance of matching with USMLE 220-230 for DOs
90+% chance of matching for DO's with a 230+

Basically if you are a slightly above average student rads is a lock. If you are below average student rads is still in play, just not a lock.

Oof.

NRMP Charting Outcomes is the best stats out there. Take a look at that.

 

[Spectreman]

I’m getting more and more interested in rads too. I love anatomy, like with a passion. Would rather do surgery, but I genuinely don’t know if I can hang in terms of competition. I feel like rads would fulfill the anatomy drive and be really interesting. I actually worry it’s going to slowly become obsolete with modernized tech, but lately I’m coming around to the idea that the specialty won’t disappear in my lifetime.

I’m just a 2nd year though. Still have a lot of hoops to jump through.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I'm just an MS1 but I've read a boatload on it since I want to do rads too. From what I've gathered:

• 240 is not a hard cutoff. It's the average, but people are getting in below that. Below 230 would be a death sentence.
• You want research and every school has some sort of research. Even if you couldn't find rads research, research in anything would be better than nothing.
• Auditions aren't mandatory unless you're trying to break into a big name place. They're great if you have a good personality, otherwise they're a hindrance.

Someone else can feel free to chime in if they've read/know differently.

wrong. read charting outcomes.

Beat me to it. Somehow SDN got on this kick that a 240 is needed for anything outside of FM or path.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Beat me to it. Somehow SDN got on this kick that a 240 is needed for anything outside of FM or path.

I heard rads is 260+...

 

[kelminak]

wrong. read charting outcomes.

75% chance of matching with USMLE 210-220 for DOs
83% chance of matching with USMLE 220-230 for DOs
90+% chance of matching for DO's with a 230+

Basically if you are a slightly above average student rads is a lock. If you are a below average student rads is still in play, just not a lock.

Oof.

NRMP Charting Outcomes is the best stats out there. Take a look at that.

Are you considering sample size at all? The 210-200 range has 8 people. 220-230 had 18. Your numbers aren't wrong, but don't you think there's some self-selection going on for those 8 people who were still willing to go for radiology in that range? What would the radiology forums recommend if you had a 215?

Just so we're all on the same page, here's the breakdown:

Is having a 25% chance you won't match considered safe on that sample? What's the point where the line is drawn? When I look at that graph, there's a pretty sharp rise at the 230+ mark where you have a 90% chance of being successful, and that's what I'd consider pretty safe. Maybe the term "death sentence" is a bit of a hyperbole if you want to nitpick that.

PS @Eyeh8bullies underlining me admitting I'm an M1 and saying "oof" while flaunting you've seen charting outcomes before doesn't make you look like a rockstar, but at minimum it's ironic considering your name.

 

[Spectreman]

Are you considering sample size at all? The 210-200 range has 8 people. 220-230 had 18. Your numbers aren't wrong, but don't you think there's some self-selection going on for those 8 people who were still willing to go for radiology in that range? What would the radiology forums recommend if you had a 215?

Just so we're all on the same page, here's the breakdown:

Is having a 25% chance you won't match considered safe on that sample? What's the point where the line is drawn? When I look at that graph, there's a pretty sharp rise at the 230+ mark where you have a 90% chance of being successful, and that's what I'd consider pretty safe. Maybe the term "death sentence" is a bit of a hyperbole if you want to nitpick that.

PS @Eyeh8bullies underlining me admitting I'm an M1 and saying "oof" while flaunting you've seen charting outcomes before doesn't make you look like a rockstar, but at minimum it's ironic considering your name.

When those charting outcomes say “not matched” does that mean they failed to match period, or they may have matched into something else?

 

[kelminak]

When those charting outcomes say “not matched” does that mean they failed to match period, or they may have matched into something else?

This one I’m not as sure on. They also give a breakdown for how many specialties the applicant applied to vs how many matched or not, so I get the feeling the unmatched step statistics are just specific to that specialty and doesn’t consider if they matched in another specialty.

 

[DNC127]

Are you considering sample size at all? The 210-200 range has 8 people. 220-230 had 18. Your numbers aren't wrong, but don't you think there's some self-selection going on for those 8 people who were still willing to go for radiology in that range? What would the radiology forums recommend if you had a 215?

Just so we're all on the same page, here's the breakdown:

Is having a 25% chance you won't match considered safe on that sample? What's the point where the line is drawn? When I look at that graph, there's a pretty sharp rise at the 230+ mark where you have a 90% chance of being successful, and that's what I'd consider pretty safe. Maybe the term "death sentence" is a bit of a hyperbole if you want to nitpick that.

PS @Eyeh8bullies underlining me admitting I'm an M1 and saying "oof" while flaunting you've seen charting outcomes before doesn't make you look like a rockstar, but at minimum it's ironic considering your name.

I am considering a sample that suggests having less that a 230 is not a death sentence. I PROMISE that the 18 DOs applying with a 220-230 WERE NOT "rock stars" with any aspect of their application. Its not like all 18 of them had stellar research (I doubt any did) or crazy connections (also doubt any did). Rads is not hard to match, this data proves it. Being average-above average will get you a rads spot somewhere. Hell, even not having a USMLE you have a better chance than not of getting a rads spot.

 

[cgk]

I am considering a sample that suggests having less that a 230 is not a death sentence. I PROMISE that the 18 DOs applying with a 220-230 WERE NOT "rock stars" with any aspect of their application. Its not like all 18 of them had stellar research (I doubt any did) or crazy connections (also doubt any did). Rads is not hard to match, this data proves it. Being average-above average will get you a rads spot somewhere. Hell, even not having a USMLE you have a better chance than not of getting a rads spot.

What about a the chances for a DO matching rads with USMLE 211 and COMLEX 451? Is it taking too much of a chance to apply? What are all the specialties that would be more realistic to apply and match with a reasonable level of certainty? Would not want to take a chance of having to SOAP.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Look at the new interactive charting outcomes and you can basically see how people with your exact app have faired.

 

[kelminak]

I am considering a sample that suggests having less that a 230 is not a death sentence. I PROMISE that the 18 DOs applying with a 220-230 WERE NOT "rock stars" with any aspect of their application. Its not like all 18 of them had stellar research (I doubt any did) or crazy connections (also doubt any did). Rads is not hard to match, this data proves it. Being average-above average will get you a rads spot somewhere. Hell, even not having a USMLE you have a better chance than not of getting a rads spot.

Gotcha, so it is nitpicking that. I already conceded that was over dramatic. We don’t know the stories of them, but you’re probably right that at least a chunk of the 220s applied wisely to the least competitive rads residencies that took DOs and maybe made good impressions during auditions.

I think it’d be rough to apply under 230 but obviously not impossible. Under 220, 75% isn’t enough of a guarantee for me.

 

[kelminak]

What about a the chances for a DO matching rads with USMLE 211 and COMLEX 451? Is it taking too much of a chance to apply? What are all the specialties that would be more realistic to apply and match with a reasonable level of certainty? Would not want to take a chance of having to SOAP.

You can look at the chart I posted above and see there’s a 25% chance of not matching in the 211+ range, which you’re at the bottom of. I’d ask in the WAMC thread of the rads forums for the best opinions.

Charting outcomes can give you an idea of the most common low score specialties.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I think it’d be rough to apply under 230

You can think that all you want but do not advise others on this because the actual data says that you are wrong.

 

[CoomassieBlue57]

When those charting outcomes say “not matched” does that mean they failed to match period, or they may have matched into something else?

This one I’m not as sure on. They also give a breakdown for how many specialties the applicant applied to vs how many matched or not, so I get the feeling the unmatched step statistics are just specific to that specialty and doesn’t consider if they matched in another specialty.

Charting outcomes are for first choice only. Those students in green on the bar graph may have applied to multiple specialties and matched or soap'ed.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

For what it's worth. Two of my friends/classmates matched ACGME DR--

One with only COMLEX scores and the other took USMLE Step I. It's my understanding that both had average to slightly above Level 1 scores (<600). The one who took Step I received a below average score on it. Both had below average Level 2 scores. Both received several interviews and had no issues matching. There was nothing extraordinary about either of their applications.

Lol at 240 or bust. SDN overinflation at it's finest.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

There’s a reason why people keep saying that a USMLE >220 will keep you in the game for 90% of specialties out there.

DR doesn’t belong in the 10%.

 

[blah2468]

My USMLE is 230 but COMLEX <500. Am I going to have trouble getting interviews and get screened out of programs due to my COMLEX? A lot of programs seem to have a 500 cutoff It makes me worried and I think I should just go for IM or EM in fear of not matching

 

[blah2468]

Well I just feel like many programs receive so many applicants that utilizing another screen will help them narrow down applicants. Sorry I have pretty bad anxiety.

 

[sab3156]

Well I just feel like many programs receive so many applicants that utilizing another screen will help them narrow down applicants. Sorry I have pretty bad anxiety.

Calm down. No one cares about your COMLEX.

I am shocked at how uninformed DO applicants are.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

My USMLE is 230 but COMLEX <500. Am I going to have trouble getting interviews and get screened out of programs due to my COMLEX? A lot of programs seem to have a 500 cutoff It makes me worried and I think I should just go for IM or EM in fear of not matching

PD: “What is the Comlex? That’s too complex for my ACGME pea brain. Ah, the USMLE. Excellent.”

 

[blah2468]

After looking at FREIDA COMLEX cutoffs for some programs, I'm still starting to think blowing off OMM was a huge mistake. But thank you both for the reassurance.

 

[sab3156]

After looking at FREIDA COMLEX cutoffs for some programs, I'm still starting to think blowing off OMM was a huge mistake. But thank you both for the reassurance.

You still don't get it, do you?

I am constantly amazed myself. But, are you really that shocked? At this point you have obviously figured out how incredibly bad and clueless "advising" is at DO schools. I know a girl who is applying to anesthesiology right now with <410 comlex x2/ no steps and she is only applying to 8 programs...

Reminds me of some of the year 2 ortho and neursurgery gunners I've met who still have no plans to do any research.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

After looking at FREIDA COMLEX cutoffs for some programs, I'm still starting to think blowing off OMM was a huge mistake. But thank you both for the reassurance.

No ACGME PD gives a rat's fart about OMM... and they will give just about as much weight to your COMLEX. You have a 230, that's what they know. If you get asked about it (you won't) then just say, "I didn't study the OMM for COMLEX" and they won't even bat an eye.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Will echo what others say about matching into DR with < 230 on Step 1. It's not hard if you apply broadly.

As well, DR programs care a lot about 'fit'. You spend a lot of time with the people in your program and it's important that you fit in well and get along. Interviews are very chill but it's important to do the dinners, etc to get to know people.

I had a lowish Step 1 that was brought up on several interviews but was also told that my high Step 2 made up for it at several others. The one thing a high Step 1 score will dictate, to some extent, is the tier of program you'd be extended interviews for off the bat. Of course the very top tier just won't consider DOs, period.

Getting back to the OP: research is not a make or break. It's helpful but certainly not if it would at all affect your academics/boards. Elective rotations are important at historically DO programs but are much less common for ACGME programs where it's not the norm. Historically DO programs might consider your COMLEX but they still mostly weigh the Step scores since they also have MD applicants to compare you to and conversions are not all that reliable.

 

[Eyeh8bullies]

PS @Eyeh8bullies underlining me admitting I'm an M1 and saying "oof" while flaunting you've seen charting outcomes before doesn't make you look like a rockstar, but at minimum it's ironic considering your name.

I apologize @kelminak if I came off as facetious. I guess I could have done without the "oof." But I've seen too many MS1s give inappropriate advice (like your advice of 240+ or nothing) so I wanted to highlight your background to the op so he/she can get the best advice.

You can think that all you want but do not advise others on this because the actual data says that you are wrong.

This. I agree with what @AnatomyGrey12 has been posting.

 

[Eyeh8bullies]

No ACGME PD gives a rat's fart about OMM... and they will give just about as much weight to your COMLEX. You have a 230, that's what they know. If you get asked about it (you won't) then just say, "I didn't study the OMM for COMLEX" and they won't even bat an eye.

fun fact, I had one program director tell me that my step was great (230's) but told me that my COMLEX was too low (550s) so he most likely won't consider my application... albeit it was a former AOA program.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

albeit it was a former AOA program.

This is why.

 

[kelminak]

I apologize @kelminak if I came off as facetious. I guess I could have done without the "oof." But I've seen too many MS1s give inappropriate advice (like your advice of 240+ or nothing) so I wanted to highlight your background to the op so he/she can get the best advice.



This. I agree with what @AnatomyGrey12 has been posting.

I didn't ever say 240 or nothing (unless you just typod). I was overdramatic about 230. It's not a death sentence, but I wouldn't want to be in that position. We can be allowed to have different opinions on this board of what is safe to match a specialty while still remaining respectful.

 

[Oh_Gee]

Will echo what others say about matching into DR with < 230 on Step 1. It's not hard if you apply broadly.

As well, DR programs care a lot about 'fit'. You spend a lot of time with the people in your program and it's important that you fit in well and get along. Interviews are very chill but it's important to do the dinners, etc to get to know people.

I had a lowish Step 1 that was brought up on several interviews but was also told that my high Step 2 made up for it at several others. The one thing a high Step 1 score will dictate, to some extent, is the tier of program you'd be extended interviews for off the bat. Of course the very top tier just won't consider DOs, period.

Getting back to the OP: research is not a make or break. It's helpful but certainly not if it would at all affect your academics/boards. Elective rotations are important at historically DO programs but are much less common for ACGME programs where it's not the norm. Historically DO programs might consider your COMLEX but they still mostly weigh the Step scores since they also have MD applicants to compare you to and conversions are not all that reliable.

how do we figure which programs are considered top tier? just screen out programs that have no DOs on their rosters?

 

[sab3156]

fun fact, I had one program director tell me that my step was great (230's) but told me that my COMLEX was too low (550s) so he most likely won't consider my application... albeit it was a former AOA program.

You should have asked him how much OMM knowledge is required for osteopathic radiology.

Osteopathy... never ceases to amaze.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

how do we figure which programs are considered top tier? just screen out programs that have no DOs on their rosters?

That's a fair rough estimate. Not to say that you shouldn't shoot a few applications to 'reach' places but if you want to maximize your yield pay attention to whether or not programs have DOs and their average USMLE ranges as reported on FREIDA.

 

[DNC127]

I didn't ever say 240 or nothing (unless you just typod). I was overdramatic about 230. It's not a death sentence, but I wouldn't want to be in that position. We can be allowed to have different opinions on this board of what is safe to match a specialty while still remaining respectful.

Statistically speaking, you (and most DO's) most likely will be.

 

[kelminak]

Statistically speaking, you (and most DO's) most likely will be.

Good thing there are a plethora of resources available online to show us how to do better than average if we're willing to put in the work.

 

[blah2468]

Good thing there are a plethora of resources available online to show us how to do better than average if we're willing to put in the work.

Everyone has access to those resources, on top of that there is a component of luck to it as well. Unfortunately, you don't see the huge number of people who actually don't do well on USMLE on SDN even though they 100% matured zanki, bros, UFAPed x3. Its good to reach for scores, but your statement saying you wouldn't want to be in that situation is a bit ignorant. Just a fair warning, work as hard as you can obviously, but there are plenty of people with your attitude at my school ending up not even taking USMLE due to low NBME scores (despite gunning since year 1). You just don't see them post on SDN. There is no magic formula to get you to score above average.

 

[Bobcat18]

Matched at one of the “top 30” DR programs and from what I could tell from the interview season Step 1, research and clinical year grades are all that matter pre-interview. Once you get the interview “fit” is the most important. There are a ton of radiology programs out there so as others have said just matching isn’t extremely competitive but when it comes to matching at a larger academic named institution you have to have all 3 of the pre-interview requirements (250+, research and great clinical grades). Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

Excuse my ignorance but what are the negatives of being accepted into a community DR program? I imagine that getting a fellowship will be harder but is there anything else? I’m Just wondering because I have a 241 and literally zero research and i’ve been doing just okay on clinical rotations.

 

[sab3156]

Good thing there are a plethora of resources available online to show us how to do better than average if we're willing to put in the work.

Everyone uses those resources, lol...

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Everyone uses those resources, lol...

I agree, although to be fair I think people greatly underestimate the time and effort it takes to truly master those resources. It's easy to say, "I'm going to UFAPS it" but its a whole other level to actually know those sources cold.

 

[Oh_Gee]

Matched at one of the “top 30” DR programs and from what I could tell from the interview season Step 1, research and clinical year grades are all that matter pre-interview. Once you get the interview “fit” is the most important. There are a ton of radiology programs out there so as others have said just matching isn’t extremely competitive but when it comes to matching at a larger academic named institution you have to have all 3 of the pre-interview requirements (250+, research and great clinical grades). Let me know if you have any questions.

what kind and how much research we talking?

 

[Oh_Gee]

That's a fair rough estimate. Not to say that you shouldn't shoot a few applications to 'reach' places but if you want to maximize your yield pay attention to whether or not programs have DOs and their average USMLE ranges as reported on FREIDA.

what about a program with all MD's but the assistant PD is a DO?

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Y'all be gettin all hot n bothered in here

 

[Bobcat18]

There are plenty of amazing community programs out there but I'd say the big drawback in being at more of a community program is that, on average, you'll see less complex cases. The reason for this is because academic centers typically have their own cancer centers, transplant services and are hospitals that are level one trauma centers- versus community programs you'll see more bread and butter cases sprinkled in with complex cases.

Excuse my ignorance but what are the negatives of being accepted into a community DR program? I imagine that getting a fellowship will be harder but is there anything else? I’m Just wondering because I have a 241 and literally zero research and i’ve been doing just okay on clinical rotations.

 

[Bobcat18]

For research I think quality > quantity. You want to be a part of a project (not necessarily lead researcher) that results in something substantial (preferably publication) and a project that you made a significant contribution towards. These types of projects result in better interview conversations during interview season because you can better articulate how you contributed and the impact that the project has on the community.

what kind and how much research we talking?

 

[zero0]

Calm down. No one cares about your COMLEX.

I am shocked at how uninformed DO applicants are.

Go easy on the poor boy.

God knows how much kool-aid they've funneled down his throat at whatever Hogwarts school of wizardry he had the sorry misfortune of attending.

@blah2468 I don't like absolutes, but I would genuinely be shocked if any ACGME PD even looked at, much less mentioned your COMLEX

 

[W19]

Are you considering sample size at all? The 210-200 range has 8 people. 220-230 had 18. Your numbers aren't wrong, but don't you think there's some self-selection going on for those 8 people who were still willing to go for radiology in that range? What would the radiology forums recommend if you had a 215?

Just so we're all on the same page, here's the breakdown:

Is having a 25% chance you won't match considered safe on that sample? What's the point where the line is drawn? When I look at that graph, there's a pretty sharp rise at the 230+ mark where you have a 90% chance of being successful, and that's what I'd consider pretty safe. Maybe the term "death sentence" is a bit of a hyperbole if you want to nitpick that.

PS @Eyeh8bullies underlining me admitting I'm an M1 and saying "oof" while flaunting you've seen charting outcomes before doesn't make you look like a rockstar, but at minimum it's ironic considering your name.

Anything below 85% is not a great odd in that game IMO...

 

[PapaStill]

Go easy on the poor boy.

God knows how much kool-aid they've funneled down his throat at whatever Hogwarts school of wizardry he had the sorry misfortune of attending.

@blah2468 I don't like absolutes, but I would genuinely be shocked if any ACGME PD even looked at, much less mentioned your COMLEX

...My school said that COMLEX 2 was the one that mattered lol.