DVM/PhD options

[sheep girl]

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Anyone thinking of working on a DVM/PhD? What do you want to study and where at?

 

[theunraveler]

me...not sure yet but it would be something that benefit both man and animals...i will do it probably at university of queensland

 

[wi girl]

Also still debating, but if i did, it would be at UW (despite other claims, they do have a program that you can apply to the grad school after your first year); I really would like to do clinical stem cell research -- like implanting pancreatic stem cells into a diabetic cat. How cool would that be? Then again, I do research now, and can't see myself working for another 6 yrs on top of vet school (10 years?!?!?!) so I'm still thinking about it. Maybe my masters?

 

[sheep girl]

I have a masters in ruminant nutrition. But most univeristies will allow you to get a PhD without a MS. And there are vet schools that have programs that let you get your Phd while studing for your DVM. You finish both at the same time (in four years). This is the program that I am really talking about.

 

[nyanko]

I have a masters in ruminant nutrition. But most univeristies will allow you to get a PhD without a MS. And there are vet schools that have programs that let you get your Phd while studing for your DVM. You finish both at the same time (in four years). This is the program that I am really talking about.

I can't imagine that most of these schools let you get both in four years. UCD's program is either 6 or 7 years long, I can't remember off the top of my head.

Considering that a DVM takes 4 years and a PhD usually takes anywhere from 4-6, I have no idea how you'd finish a dual degree program in 4 years including all the necessary courses for a DVM plus a dissertation..

 

[wi girl]

No, I understand you can get a PhD w/o a masters; I was just thinking about doing a masters instead. I actually don't know of any PhD/DVM programs that allow you to graduate in still 4 years -- Penn specifically says 2 years of DVM classes, then 2-3 years rotations to find your lab then at least 3 years of research before you get your PhD -- and then you still have 4th year of DVM to do.

Cornell is similar, they say that you can finish 1.5 years earlier than enrolling sequentially, so not 10 years, but 8.5. And that's assuming your research works, and you get decent results.


Maybe you saw that you can get the degrees concurrently? That just means you get both at the same time -- i.e. one graduation ceremony.

Penn, Cornell, UW and UMN are all I really know about though, maybe other schools are different. Is there a particular school you're looking for?

 

[BobDog]

I have a masters in ruminant nutrition. But most univeristies will allow you to get a PhD without a MS. And there are vet schools that have programs that let you get your Phd while studing for your DVM. You finish both at the same time (in four years). This is the program that I am really talking about.

This can't be possible. Getting a PhD requires your full-time attention. There is no way that you could carry out a meaningful project while attending vet school, even if your summers were completely free. It has taken me just over 4 years to complete my PhD and that was putting in around 65 hours a week in the lab (not to mention time out side of the lab reading the literature etc...). I am more familiar with MD/PhD programs, and the ones I know of are 2 years med school (pre-clinical work), PhD (however long that takes you) and then the last 2 years of med school (clinical rotations).

 

[sheep girl]

I am looking at LSU. I know of alot PhD students that have finished in three years when they have done it separately. An extra semester of two may be need, but I am looking at five years, tops from my understanding.

 

[ri23]

You can get an MS and a DVM in four years, but I don't think it is possible to get a DVM/PhD in 4 years. I think you are looking at least at 7 years.

 

[nyanko]

I am looking at LSU. I know of alot PhD students that have finished in three years when they have done it separately. An extra semester of two may be need, but I am looking at five years, tops.

Do you realize what a PhD entails?

 

[VAgirl]

You finish both at the same time (in four years). This is the program that I am really talking about.

No, that's not at all what LSU says. LSU says time to complete DVM remains unchanged (4 years), but then you do your PhD work. They only say that it could shave 1-2 years off what it would have taken to complete the degrees sequentially. So even if you can get a PhD in 3 years (which sounds like lightening speed), it would be 5-6 years, and that seems overly optimistic.
http://www.vetmed.lsu.edu/dvm_phd_option.htm

 

[nyanko]

Anyway to contribute something other than a bit of disbelief to the thread, I want to do both degrees, but I don't know that a DVM/PhD combined program is going to be the way in which I will do it. I want to eventually become faculty at a vet school, preferably in the area of genetics, so I applied to both UCD's DVM and PhD in Genetics this year. I actually do need some guidance from those who have done this before if I get into the PhD program and not the DVM, though.

BobDog, I know you've done a PhD and are now going to start a DVM. What did interviewers seem to think of that and what are your career goals, if you don't mind me asking? What was your dissertation on?

 

[hoodle]

I am currrently applying to DVM/PhD programs, and let me tell you - there is NO way you can do a program in less than 7 years. 7 is the optimal, efficient time period - instead of 4 and 4, you can shave a year off the total time by lessening the coursework for your PhD due to your DVM prerequisites. Many schools have different ways of organizing the structure, but none can routinely offer a program in under 7 years.

Another good way to get a PhD is to do a residency/PhD, or a "DVM seeking PhD" program. These are relatively common.

Nyanko - you applied to both grad and DVM at Davis? Did you apply under the VSTP (if you didn't, how are you going to pull it off?) Are you interviewing next week?

 

[nyanko]

Nyanko - you applied to both grad and DVM at Davis? Did you apply under the VSTP (if you didn't, how are you going to pull it off?) Are you interviewing next week?

Actually, I was discouraged from applying to the VSTP by some people on this board. My grades aren't nearly competitive enough to get in as a first-year to such an exclusive program. Therein lies my quandary.

Ideally, I'd get into the DVM this year and then apply to the VSTP after my first year in the DVM, which would make me more competitive according to some folks I've talked to on here. But I have my doubts that I'll even get into the DVM this year, though I think I have a very good shot at getting into the PhD in Genetics. So basically if what I think will happen does happen and I get into the PhD and not the DVM, I have a tough decision to make. I don't know if I can apply to the VSTP after my first year of a PhD or not or if I'd even be competitive for it then. I guess my best option would be to talk to the professor that I work under now in the school of vet med about it, but I'm kinda just waiting to see what happens before jumping the gun like that.

Good luck with your interview next week. 🙂

 

[wi girl]

I know of alot PhD students that have finished in three years when they have done it separately.

I need to find out what kind of PhD they were getting! In my lab right now, our oldest grad is looking to get hers after 6 years ... and that's with a major publication that was accepted this year (she's a 4th year).

 

[BobDog]

BobDog, I know you've done a PhD and are now going to start a DVM. What did interviewers seem to think of that and what are your career goals, if you don't mind me asking? What was your dissertation on?

First of all, I have always been interested in going to vet school. I just got WAY distracted by research in undergrad (sort of my personality sometimes). At the end of undergrad I knew that my Grades/GRE/Experience would get my into vet school but not into a DVM/PhD program. At the time I didn't really consider doing the DVM first, because I knew that I wanted to do research for sure. So I decided to do the PhD part, see how that worked out and then decide later on about the DVM.

My dissertation work was on gene regulation in cancer, specifically in the primary brain tumor glioblastoma. My project looked at the mechanism by which interferons (anti-viral cytokines) inhibited the expression of certain genes that are considered to be beneficial to tumors. I am now doing a post-doc project investigating mechanisms of chemo- and radiation-resistance. I am also obsessed with a field called comparative oncology, which is the study of cancer in animals with the hope of improving animal and human cancer treatment. I am particularly interested in the area of this field that studies spontaneously occurring cancer in companion animals for reasons outlined here:

http://more.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=5967919&postcount=4

As you can see, my projects and interests are very relevant to human and animal disease and so are my career goals. My interviewers have been very positive about my experience and what I can bring to the profession. I only lay all this out to show how things worked for me. There are a million different ways to get to vet school, and this is how I ended up here. I DO think that you should really be sure that you like research if you go decide to do a PhD only program like I have, because I have seen too many people who get here and then hate it (for a million different reasons). There are also no guarantees about how long a PhD will take (not even with a DVM/PhD program). It is just the nature of the work. Some projects run perfectly and some don't. Honestly, I had the data I am now writing up for my dissertation (that also comprises my two publications) in my first two years here. Then I had a series of experiments that simply didn't work. That is how things go.

I guess in the end, it is probably cheaper for the profession to let the NIH train me here and then rope me into vet school afterwards, but this way of getting to vet school won't work for everyone.

 

[nyanko]

I DO think that you should really be sure that you like research if you go decide to do a PhD only program like I have, because I have seen too many people who get here and then hate it (for a million different reasons). There are also no guarantees about how long a PhD will take (not even with a DVM/PhD program). It is just the nature of the work. Some projects run perfectly and some don't. Honestly, I had the data I am now writing up for my dissertation (that also comprises my two publications) in my first two years here. Then I had a series of experiments that simply didn't work. That is how things go.

Yeah, I'm very very nearly 100% sure that I also want to go into research - specifically I want to be faculty at a vet school, preferably in genetics. I did an independent undergraduate honors thesis and know pretty well the ups and downs of research (I worked with Drosophila and basically had to throw away almost the whole first half of my research because of something we would have thought was completely unrelated that was mutated in the stocks I was using) and still love it.

The only problem I have is that I'm already not young. I am somewhat easily distracted and ended up finishing a Computer Science BS and then one year later going back to do one in Molecular Biology & Microbiology when I decided I wanted to try for vet school. So like you, I was enamored by research in the process of getting that degree and that's how I decided what I want to do. However I'm 27 and starting a PhD now and then a DVM after that (in possibly up to 6 years or so) seems very daunting. I'm lucky in that I have a significant other who is in a PhD program right now so he by and large understands, and we don't plan on having kids so I don't have any real need to get finished before I'm 35 or whatever to start a family, but I still feel like being 35 or 36 and fresh out of school will limit me in some way. 🙁

 

[alliecat44]

Since I've never really felt the pull for research, I can't really comment on it, except to say that I totally admire you guys and am very grateful that other people want to do it! 🙂

BobDog, just wanted to say that comparative onc is awesome and to rock on. 🙂 I know a veterinary pathologist at NIH conducting a study on canine gliomas. They're such terrible tumors...whenever we had a case that was a confirmed tumor (w/ MRI), we asked owners for permission for NIH to take the brain. Very cool stuff and GBMs scare the crap out of me. 🙂 Good job and keep up the good work! We need you! 😍

 

[BobDog]

Since I've never really felt the pull for research, I can't really comment on it, except to say that I totally admire you guys and am very grateful that other people want to do it! 🙂

BobDog, just wanted to say that comparative onc is awesome and to rock on. 🙂 I know a veterinary pathologist at NIH conducting a study on canine gliomas. They're such terrible tumors...whenever we had a case that was a confirmed tumor (w/ MRI), we asked owners for permission for NIH to take the brain. Very cool stuff and GBMs scare the crap out of me. 🙂 Good job and keep up the good work! We need you! 😍

It was actually a guy (Chand Khanna DVM PhD) from the NIH/NCI that got me really fired up about comparative onc. I knew what I wanted to do, but didn't know how possible it was. He is doing it, and doing it well! He is the head of the comparative oncology program at NCI. He spoke at our UAB Comprehensive Cancer Center retreat and got a room full of human clinicians (not always the most DVM friendly group) excited about the prospects of using comparative onc to improve human patient care. He is a great speaker (and also an adjunct at Penn 😀). Hopefully after residency he will let me do a fellowship in his lab 👍.

 

[alliecat44]

Oh my gosh, I know Dr. Khanna--he works at Friendship Hospital for Animals. He is AMAZING in comparative onc--forgot he was an investigator in that study, too.

Did you know Michelle Silver? She did her general rotating internship at my practice (referral center in VA) and then did an oncology internship with us + rotations with Dr. Khanna. She matched to an onco residency in Boston and should be finishing up her first year there.

Dr. Khanna is a god! He's wonderful. 🙂 🙂

 

[sheep girl]

Two of my friends completed their PhD in three years in ruminant nutrition, while I was working on my masters ( in two years I first authored 2 major publications and 5 small ones). I have another friend that is finishing his Phd in parasitology. He started in 2005-2006. He will defend in mid-July. I know in genetics and physiology the programs last a whole lot longer. I work in a physo lab that conducted breast and gastro cancer research on rodents (Klf9 and Klf15 research). PhD students in that lab stayed for at least four years and post-docs were staying for at least 5 to 6 years. But, this is not what I want to do. Each area of research requires a different amount of time.

 

[handh02]

When I interviewed at Tufts last year, the people doing my interview said the most likely way to complete a dual degree at Tufts was to do the first 2 years of DVM, do 2-4 years of research for a MS/PhD, and then come back for the last 2 years of DVM. Although Tufts doesn't exactly have a dual degree program, it sounded much quicker than enrolling sequentially, and they were really pretty encouraging of it.

(As a side note, I didn't get accepted, but was wait listed. My SO and I couldn't wait for that long to decide our future, which would mean moving cross country, so we've gone on to other things. I still plan on coming back a re-applying after a few years though.)

 

[getupkidschic]

i too am interested in getting a phd as well....right now im thinking wildlife conservation biology or something similar. i had looked at the tufts program, but since i was rejected that is out! but all of the other schools i applied to have this option---univ of edinburgh--you take time off of your dvm program to pursue it....univ of fl---you have to apply separately, takes about 7 yrs...miss state seems like they just recently started this program. i have an interview for that on the same day as my interview for the dvm program. surprisingly, their program is the most appealing to me: 1st 2 yrs are spent on your phd, then all 4 yrs of dvm, then finish your research, etc. they say it takes about 7 yrs in total. i really liked how all 4 yrs of vet school are together. they also provide a stipend & tuition waiver during the phd related yrs & then $10,000 each yr of the dvm program. so yeah, starkville is looking better & better.

 

[sheep girl]

Because I thought I had misunderstood something about the DVM/PhD option that I am intrested in, I talked face-to-face with some of the LSU faculty at a conference this weekend. I was told that the average time required for the five students that have previously completed the program was about 5yrs. (You apply for grad school after the first semester and you work on it during breaks and during sessions, if you are capable handling the load) But, it depends on your intrests and if you wait untill after clinicals or during clinicals to finish. Also, it may depend on your advisor (etc) and experience.

 

[akitavet]

I dont know either about the timing, but I did get invited to apply to the DVM/PhD program at Illinois. I wasnt considering it really until I noticed that they waive tuition and give a partial stipend. Well that got my attention. I left a PhD program with an MS to pursue vet school, so I thought I was going to be saying goodbye to academic research, but looking at whats being studied at IL, it sounds soooo cool! Well at least maybe if I got the letter about the DVM/PhD program, they think Im good enough for at least vet school. Here's hoping!

 

[BobDog]

Oh my gosh, I know Dr. Khanna--he works at Friendship Hospital for Animals. He is AMAZING in comparative onc--forgot he was an investigator in that study, too.

Did you know Michelle Silver? She did her general rotating internship at my practice (referral center in VA) and then did an oncology internship with us + rotations with Dr. Khanna. She matched to an onco residency in Boston and should be finishing up her first year there.

Dr. Khanna is a god! He's wonderful. 🙂 🙂

Nope, just know Dr. Khanna. He is the man. Very nice guy. Like I said, crossing my fingers that I can do a fellowship in his lab after residency. A chance to learn from the master 😀.

 

[banditalfi]

Because I thought I had misunderstood something about the DVM/PhD option that I am intrested in, I talked face-to-face with some of the LSU faculty at a conference this weekend. I was told that the average time required for the five students that have previously completed the program was about 5yrs. (You apply for grad school after the first semester and you work on it during breaks and during sessions, if you are capable handling the load) But, it depends on your intrests and if you wait untill after clinicals or during clinicals to finish. Also, it may depend on your advisor (etc) and experience.

I am by no means doubting the information they gave you at LSU, but a recurring theme throughout all of my research on the DVM/PhD programs has been that it really isn't beneficial to truncate the PhD time. Faculty members at the vet schools I've been to as well as ones at my undergrad have said numerous times that a 1-2 year PhD isn't going to pull any weight.

 

[BobDog]

Because I thought I had misunderstood something about the DVM/PhD option that I am intrested in, I talked face-to-face with some of the LSU faculty at a conference this weekend. I was told that the average time required for the five students that have previously completed the program was about 5yrs. (You apply for grad school after the first semester and you work on it during breaks and during sessions, if you are capable handling the load) But, it depends on your intrests and if you wait untill after clinicals or during clinicals to finish. Also, it may depend on your advisor (etc) and experience.

It is good you got this information from the source, but a general warning is that the people running graduate programs can only give you their experience. They can't guarantee anything, and their estimates of time to completion will probably slant towards the shorter time frame. Your field is obviously very different than mine. With one year (full-time, mind you) in my lab, you would barely be getting a strong enough grasp on the techniques needed to even start a project. You could then start a project and if everything went perfectly (VERY unlikely) you could probably finish a project in 2 years, maybe. This is all highly hypothetical, of course. The problem is that there is alot more to a good PhD program that just bench work. You need to learn how to write papers, how to write grants, how to manage the work of technicians/other students and how to present your work. I just don't see how you can do this as a part time/summer student, especially in 1 year or so.

For example, I am in a program where we did all of our coursework and rotations our first year. I didn't accomplish a whole lot in my lab rotations, because I was pretty busy with coursework. This coursework was difficult, but probably nothing compared to first year DVM coursework. In this year I learned how each lab worked and if I liked the people and mentor and I learned the techniques, but I sure as heck didn't get any data that would have even gotten 1 paper published (let alone a whole project completed). Then I picked a lab and finished my project in 3.5 years (4.5 years total for my PhD). I would think it would be hard to finish a masters project in 1.5 years or so while also completing DVM work.

My point to all of you considering doing graduate programs is that you should understand that getting out fast is good, but if you get out without proper training and enough solid publications you will put yourself in a difficult position when the time comes to produce good research/acquire funding later on down the road. Even the best mentor would have trouble teaching you all of these things this fast.

Of course, this is all based on a very lab/bench oriented view of science. Maybe other types of science are less strict and less competitive, but in my field if you don't learn how to write grants and present/publish data you will not survive 😀.

 

[BobDog]

I am by no means doubting the information they gave you at LSU, but a recurring theme throughout all of my research on the DVM/PhD programs has been that it really isn't beneficial to truncate the PhD time. Faculty members at the vet schools I've been to as well as ones at my undergrad have said numerous times that a 1-2 year PhD isn't going to pull any weight.

While I was typing my epic post based on my experiences, Banditalfi said the exact same thing 😀.

 

[VAgirl]

While I was typing my epic post based on my experiences, Banditalfi said the exact same thing 😀.

But we love hearing it in your words, too, BobDog. 😀

 

[Tiger1]

I was wondering if there is any current DVM/PhD students on the SDN board that would like to share their experience/schedule. I will be a first year vet student this fall, and could possibly be accepted into a dual-degree program. I am interested in your experience the first two years and what your schedule was like. Thanks.

 

[biobean]

i'm also interested to hear what people have to say about DVM/PhD programs. i've been accepted to one and also to a school that doesn't have the dual degree program. not sure yet which to do...would it be a bad idea to go to the latter and do a PhD program afterwards (aside from the financial differences)?

 

[hopperjr]

I am also *considering* applying to DVM/PhD programs this fall, however I am unsure whether or not I have enough vet/animal experience to be very competitive. I would at least like to apply to graduate school this fall, I'm just questioning whether a DVM/PhD might be doable/worthwhile. I worked as a vet assistant the summer after my freshman year in college so I should have the minimum 400hrs NC State requires, but nothing above that aside from my equestrian activities. I do have significant research experiences, which are supposed to be the more important, but I am still worried my lack of vet experience or a LOR from a vet may make me less competitive. 🙁 I could do the PhD and then vet school but I might still run into the problem of a lack of clinical hours...

I currently have a full-time research job right now that I enjoy (steady hours + benefits + opportunity for publication) and I do not really want to quit this job. Anyone have ideas on whether or not I should try and pursue more vet experience before Oct? The director at NCSU I talked to said it wouldn't be worth it unless I could add at least 100hrs experience which I doubt I'd be able to do without quitting my awesome job.

Furthermore, I am a bit worried about living on a very small stipend (or none at all) for 7-8 years. What if I want to have a child at some point?

Any thoughts/experiences on the programs? 😕

 

[hoodle]

NCSU has a great program. I really liked it - it's very new, but with a lot of administrative power behind it, and great research opportunities at UNC as well as NCSU. You may as well apply, right? You could also contact the director of the program to discuss your specifics.

 

[CanadianGolden]

Well, when you consider that in vet school you get no stipend...and have student loans... 🙂

My stipend for next year is a regular graduate stipend (like any PhD student would get) and they pay vet and graduate school tuition. Doing a DVM/VMD/PhD is not really any different than getting a PhD in terms of finances.

 

[IvyLynx]

Don't know if anyone's considering NCSU, but I was told by head of admissions that you need at least 2 years of independent research to even be considered. GPA near a 4.0 is good. I had a 3.83 at the time and was told my GPA was good/competitive. Pretty much all he said. They take 2 people a year currently.

 

[VAgirl]

Also don't forget that research (biomedical, etc.) done under a PhD counts under vet experience on VMCAS!!! Don't shortchange yourself, because you may have many more vet experience hours than you're currently thinking.

Oh, it's also really important to note that you need a letter of recommendation from a vet for all (or the overwhelming majority) of vet schools. Not sure if it's the same for applying to DVM/PhD programs, but I would assume so since I think you have to be independently accepted by both the vet school and the grad school.