Effect of Medical School Ranking on Competitive Specialty Aspirations

[prioritiesinline]

Hey everyone,

This is something that has been aching me for this application cycle so I figured I'd ask one here using another account.

I want to become a dermatologist. That is the the specialty I have chosen after doing much shadowing and and soul-searching. I'm very ahead for my age and so you're gonna have to trust that I've decided on derm after a thorough examination of other specialities. My back-up would have to be pathology, but I just need human interaction and much of it, as well.

Anyway, I am a traditional applicant this cycle with a LizzyM of 70. My GPA is 3.7 but it actually is 3.85 if you disregard classes I took in HS. I attend a prestigious top 20 undergrad institution and have have an overall superb application, I would say. Amazing reccs, amazing research, and the works. The only part of my app that is lacking is the clinical experience, but even for that, I have more than 80 hours of hospital volunteering. I didnt put on my app that I've shadowed a dermatologist, cause I didnt really wanna shoot myself in the foot right from the start. (Although my UG research was in a derm lab after all).

This cycle has been extremely underwhelming for me. Even though I applied the day AMCAS opened, it is now December and I have received only two interviews (one at an institution ranked ~60 and ~30 acc. to USNews).

The reason I am concerned is because I KNOW just how important good research/connections/networking are to match into derm. Even though I like the two schools that I've been invited at for interview, and I actually happen to like the ~60 one more than the ~30 one, I am extremely worried that attending a non-top 20 will sever my chances of matching at a top 20 for derm or even matching at all. This is because I refuse to match anywhere that is not a metropolitan city. I can't do the whole "Idc I'll match anywhere even if its in Kansas thing". I need urban life.

My fears aren't baseless, by the way. I have been carefully examining the match lists of several schools and have noticed that the top 20 schools seem to prefer themselves when it comes to recruiting for their derm programs. Is there anything I'm missing here?

Also, even though I applied so early and its not December, might a top 20 school still invite me for interview?


I would appreciate any feedback at all. Just please don't tell me "wait until med school to decide if derm is for you" or anything like that because that wouldn't be much help since I've already decided. And also, I'd really appreciate ya'll keeping it real with me to be honest. No "you COULD match at a top 20 if you find the cure to melanoma while attending the ~60 school". I am a humble though meticulous and hardworking applicant. I am willing to do whatever it takes.

Basically, what I'm asking is...if the top 30 school is the best I can get in this year, should I take a year or two off an reapply and try again for a top 20? I am unwilling to retake my MCAT (34) and would most likely just do research that year/maybe some more clinical volunteering.

Also, I just found this website called Doximity that lists derm residency programs and their rankings by medical schools. It only lists the top 10 though. If anyone has access and can let me know what the programs after the top 10 are, I'd appreciate it as it would allow me to check the strength of the ~30 and ~60 med schools I've interviewed at.

Also, I know rankings are a vicious and cruel and stupid thing, but I also happen to know just how important prestige/connections/networking are in dermatology--and not to mention research output of derm departments--and so I think the whole matching process necessitates me looking a things through a shallow lens, unfortunately :/

Please help this very anxious wannabe dermatologist!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Dermione Granger]

I'm confused..have you actually been accepted yet?

 

[prioritiesinline]

yes i have! i guess i was kind of ambiguous...what i meant is that i haven't been accepted (or even invited for interview) at any top 20s yet...

I'm confused..have you actually been accepted yet?

P.S. i know i sound like i might be a spoiled brat in this post (since getting into med school is a privilege in and of itself that many don't get to experience unfortunately) but i really am just trying to plan things out as far in advance as possible. i don't like any unexpected surprises and so that's why i'm posting.

 

[PatsyStone]

I want to become a dermatologist. That is the the specialty I have chosen after doing much shadowing and and soul-searching. I'm very ahead for my age and so you're gonna have to trust that I've decided on derm after a thorough examination of other specialities. My back-up would have to be pathology, but I just need human interaction and much of it, as well.

I'm assuming this is a joke/troll post. But in the event this is real my advice is to

mix this

with this

drink and repeat as necessary until you calm down.

 

[asmallchild]

Hey everyone,

This is something that has been aching me for this application cycle so I figured I'd ask one here using another account.

I want to become a dermatologist. That is the the specialty I have chosen after doing much shadowing and and soul-searching. I'm very ahead for my age and so you're gonna have to trust that I've decided on derm after a thorough examination of other specialities. My back-up would have to be pathology, but I just need human interaction and much of it, as well.

Anyway, I am a traditional applicant this cycle with a LizzyM of 70. My GPA is 3.7 but it actually is 3.85 if you disregard classes I took in HS. I attend a prestigious top 20 undergrad institution and have have an overall superb application, I would say. Amazing reccs, amazing research, and the works. The only part of my app that is lacking is the clinical experience, but even for that, I have more than 80 hours of hospital volunteering. I didnt put on my app that I've shadowed a dermatologist, cause I didnt really wanna shoot myself in the foot right from the start. (Although my UG research was in a derm lab after all).

This cycle has been extremely underwhelming for me. Even though I applied the day AMCAS opened, it is now December and I have received only two interviews (one at an institution ranked ~60 and ~30 acc. to USNews).

The reason I am concerned is because I KNOW just how important good research/connections/networking are to match into derm. Even though I like the two schools that I've been invited at for interview, and I actually happen to like the ~60 one more than the ~30 one, I am extremely worried that attending a non-top 20 will sever my chances of matching at a top 20 for derm or even matching at all. This is because I refuse to match anywhere that is not a metropolitan city. I can't do the whole "Idc I'll match anywhere even if its in Kansas thing". I need urban life.

My fears aren't baseless, by the way. I have been carefully examining the match lists of several schools and have noticed that the top 20 schools seem to prefer themselves when it comes to recruiting for their derm programs. Is there anything I'm missing here?

Also, even though I applied so early and its not December, might a top 20 school still invite me for interview?


I would appreciate any feedback at all. Just please don't tell me "wait until med school to decide if derm is for you" or anything like that because that wouldn't be much help since I've already decided. And also, I'd really appreciate ya'll keeping it real with me to be honest. No "you COULD match at a top 20 if you find the cure to melanoma while attending the ~60 school". I am a humble though meticulous and hardworking applicant. I am willing to do whatever it takes.

Basically, what I'm asking is...if the top 30 school is the best I can get in this year, should I take a year or two off an reapply and try again for a top 20? I am unwilling to retake my MCAT (34) and would most likely just do research that year/maybe some more clinical volunteering.

Also, I just found this website called Doximity that lists derm residency programs and their rankings by medical schools. It only lists the top 10 though. If anyone has access and can let me know what the programs after the top 10 are, I'd appreciate it as it would allow me to check the strength of the ~30 and ~60 med schools I've interviewed at.

Also, I know rankings are a vicious and cruel and stupid thing, but I also happen to know just how important prestige/connections/networking are in dermatology--and not to mention research output of derm departments--and so I think the whole matching process necessitates me looking a things through a shallow lens, unfortunately :/

Please help this very anxious wannabe dermatologist!

Medical school ranking helps but isn't the only determining factor. Med students change their mind about specialty selection so often that I would say it's a mistake to select a med school based solely on how well it would set you up for a derm residency. Pick the school that gives you the best chance to be successful and worry about matching later.

 

[prioritiesinline]

I'm assuming this is a joke/troll post. But in the event this is real my advice is to

mix this

with this

drink and repeat as necessary until you calm down.

I appreciate the humor but I am actually serious. I might come off as anxious and silly but I really am serious and looking for some solid advice cause I'm admittedly also a nerd and I guess kind of a "gunner"? I don't really see myself as a gunner though bc all of this is fueled by my anxiety/need to figure things out well in advance. So any true insight would be appreciated, thanks for the laugh, though.

 

[blackprophecy]

This is because I refuse to match anywhere that is not a metropolitan city. I can't do the whole "Idc I'll match anywhere even if its in Kansas thing". I need urban life.

 

[DermViser]

Hey everyone,

This is something that has been aching me for this application cycle so I figured I'd ask one here using another account.

I want to become a dermatologist. That is the the specialty I have chosen after doing much shadowing and and soul-searching. I'm very ahead for my age and so you're gonna have to trust that I've decided on derm after a thorough examination of other specialities. My back-up would have to be pathology, but I just need human interaction and much of it, as well.

Anyway, I am a traditional applicant this cycle with a LizzyM of 70. My GPA is 3.7 but it actually is 3.85 if you disregard classes I took in HS. I attend a prestigious top 20 undergrad institution and have have an overall superb application, I would say. Amazing reccs, amazing research, and the works. The only part of my app that is lacking is the clinical experience, but even for that, I have more than 80 hours of hospital volunteering. I didnt put on my app that I've shadowed a dermatologist, cause I didnt really wanna shoot myself in the foot right from the start. (Although my UG research was in a derm lab after all).

This cycle has been extremely underwhelming for me. Even though I applied the day AMCAS opened, it is now December and I have received only two interviews (one at an institution ranked ~60 and ~30 acc. to USNews).

The reason I am concerned is because I KNOW just how important good research/connections/networking are to match into derm. Even though I like the two schools that I've been invited at for interview, and I actually happen to like the ~60 one more than the ~30 one, I am extremely worried that attending a non-top 20 will sever my chances of matching at a top 20 for derm or even matching at all. This is because I refuse to match anywhere that is not a metropolitan city. I can't do the whole "Idc I'll match anywhere even if its in Kansas thing". I need urban life.

My fears aren't baseless, by the way. I have been carefully examining the match lists of several schools and have noticed that the top 20 schools seem to prefer themselves when it comes to recruiting for their derm programs. Is there anything I'm missing here?

Also, even though I applied so early and its not December, might a top 20 school still invite me for interview?


I would appreciate any feedback at all. Just please don't tell me "wait until med school to decide if derm is for you" or anything like that because that wouldn't be much help since I've already decided. And also, I'd really appreciate ya'll keeping it real with me to be honest. No "you COULD match at a top 20 if you find the cure to melanoma while attending the ~60 school". I am a humble though meticulous and hardworking applicant. I am willing to do whatever it takes.

Basically, what I'm asking is...if the top 30 school is the best I can get in this year, should I take a year or two off an reapply and try again for a top 20? I am unwilling to retake my MCAT (34) and would most likely just do research that year/maybe some more clinical volunteering.

Also, I just found this website called Doximity that lists derm residency programs and their rankings by medical schools. It only lists the top 10 though. If anyone has access and can let me know what the programs after the top 10 are, I'd appreciate it as it would allow me to check the strength of the ~30 and ~60 med schools I've interviewed at.

Also, I know rankings are a vicious and cruel and stupid thing, but I also happen to know just how important prestige/connections/networking are in dermatology--and not to mention research output of derm departments--and so I think the whole matching process necessitates me looking a things through a shallow lens, unfortunately :/

Please help this very anxious wannabe dermatologist!

Ok, #1 -- if you reapply to med school after getting acceptances this year, your career is essentially through. They will not take you knowing that you were accepted to med schools the year before. Needless to say to answer your question, you do not have to attend a Top 20 school to match into Derm. End of story.

I do very much agree with @asmallchild above, esp. since you have no idea at the end of 4 years whether you'll even be competitive for derm. If the fear of not getting into derm residency really is affecting you this much (and in all honesty it shouldn't), then you should go into PA or NP school. PAs don't require residencies and neither do NPs (although there are "official" derm NP residencies available).

 

[ratherbefishing]

You say you lack clinical experience but then say you "know" you want to do derm - before you've even had one day of medical school.

 

[DermViser]

You say you lack clinical experience but then say you "know" you want to do derm - before you've even had one day of medical school.

I believe he/she shadowed a dermatologist (most likely in the community) as an undergrad. Not surprising as it's relatively accessible to the public since it's outpatient, and not an inpatient hospital.

 

[luxaeterna]

You're gonna have a tough shot at getting the research opportunities and connections you'll need to succeed in the dermatology match at a lower ranked school, especially if you are aiming for a metropolitan program. I'd say withdraw this year and re-apply next year after doing some more research and clinical shadowing. Your MCAT is sub-par for the top schools, but if you are dead set on not retaking it then I'd say get in research and an interesting non-medical experience, like teaching abroad. Also, emphasize your passion for primary care in interviews - medical schools love that.

 

[prioritiesinline]

Hey everyone, thanks for the advice and *constructive* criticism.

It's actually really helpful. I'm learning lots. Like for example I did NOT know it is a career-ender to reapply with acceptances. I literally thought that it wouldn't be a big deal or taken into account. But apparently^, withdrawing is allowed and not punished as heavily?

But honestly folks from some of the above statements I do feel that I'm not quite being understood well or am being taken seriously. I want to do derm and am willing to do anything to do it. I'm incredibly ambitious, as I'm sure all of you are. So basically I'm just asking this to you folks like for the real deal.


Thanks for the support! More opinions are appreciated as well

 

[DermViser]

Hey everyone, thanks for the advice and *constructive* criticism.

It's actually really helpful. I'm learning lots. Like for example I did NOT know it is a career-ender to reapply with acceptances. I literally thought that it wouldn't be a big deal or taken into account. But apparently^, withdrawing is allowed and not punished as heavily?

But honestly folks from some of the above statements I do feel that I'm not quite being understood well or am being taken seriously. I want to do derm and am willing to do anything to do it. I'm incredibly ambitious, as I'm sure all of you are. So basically I'm just asking this to you folks like for the real deal.

Thanks for the support! More opinions are appreciated as well

Yes, if you get acceptances this year, and don't go and reapply again, schools will know and it will be game over.

If already before you've even entered medical school, your goal is to only enter one specialty which is probably one of the most competitive in medicine (second only to Plastics) to match into for residency, and nothing else will make you happy, then you are much better off entering NP or at least PA school, in which you have a much better chance of getting to do Derm as PAs and NPs don't require residency or board certification to practice in their specialty.

If you enter medical school, you HAVE to be flexible. If you are inflexible, then med school is not for you. End of discussion.

 

[prioritiesinline]

esp. since you have no idea at the end of 4 years whether you'll even be competitive for derm. If the fear of not getting into derm residency really is affecting you this much (and in all honesty it shouldn't), then you should go into PA or NP school. PAs don't require residencies and neither do NPs (although there are "official" derm NP residencies available).

Like this statement actually made me more worried. Do even people who try really hard somehow just not make it? What are these unforeseen obstacles? Bc honestly I'm the type of person who would start studying for step 1 literally next semester (and i plan to lol) but what i'm saying though is that getting into derm seems very formulaic and so i'm just asking for your folks' perspectives since you've been through the derm path and know more about the system.

 

[DermViser]

Like this statement actually made me more worried. Do even people who try really hard somehow just not make it? What are these unforeseen obstacles? Bc honestly I'm the type of person who would start studying for step 1 literally next semester (and i plan to lol) but what i'm saying though is that getting into derm seems very formulaic and so i'm just asking for your folks' perspectives since you've been through the derm path and know more about the system.

You'll figure out soon enough from the med school journey that just bc you "try hard" (whatever that means) you may not get the specialty you want. You won't know how competitive you are for dermatology until the beginning of MS-4. By then you've accumulated 3 years of medical school student loan debt. In medical school almost everyone works hard, esp. at top tier med schools. Studying for Step 1 from the first semester of MS-1 is no assurance for derm, and you wouldn't be the only person doing it anyways.

While getting into derm is "formulaic" in some ways (I guess) those things in and of themselves are very difficult to achieve in terms of preclinical grades, Step 1, clerkship grades, getting elected to Alpha Omega Alpha (AOA), and having research (and not just case reports, either) as the rest of your class will also be competing to do the same. Getting interviews is also another hurdle, as almost everyone on the interview trail has the above.

All the more reason you should go for PA school or NP school, where you have a much higher chance of getting to relatively the same destination esp. since you're already convinced that no other specialty in medicine will make you happy.

 

[prioritiesinline]

Yes, if you get acceptances this year, and don't go and reapply again, schools will know and it will be game over.

If already before you've even entered medical school, your goal is to only enter one specialty which is probably one of the most competitive in medicine (second only to Plastics) to match into for residency, and nothing else will make you happy, then you are much better off entering NP or at least PA school, in which you have a much better chance of getting to do Derm as PAs and NPs don't require residency or board certification to practice in their specialty.

If you enter medical school, you HAVE to be flexible. If you are inflexible, then med school is not for you. End of discussion.

Like you keep mentioning NP and PA but honestly I dont think I could do them because one of the key aspects of derm that I like is the independence and autonomy they have (even owning a practice, dare i say it). I really love that part and how it's one of the few old school specialties that can sustain itself to stay that way. Idk maybe I'm just a fool with dreams but I'd like to think that work put in is results put out in terms of matching into derm and that there must be some fool proof formula (such as planning really early and strategizing everything accordingly). Its just that I lack the foresight of what the process/system is actually like

 

[DermViser]

Like you keep mentioning NP and PA but honestly I dont think I could do them because one of the key aspects of derm that I like is the independence and autonomy they have (even owning a practice, dare i say it). I really love that part and how it's one of the few old school specialties that can sustain itself to stay that way. Idk maybe I'm just a fool with dreams but I'd like to think that work put in is results put out in terms of matching into derm and that there must be some fool proof formula (such as planning really early and strategizing everything accordingly). Its just that I lack the foresight of what the process/system is actually like

There are many states in which NPs can practice independently and autonomously. Even in states where they are not, both NPs and PAs in Derm, don't have physicians peering and looking over their shoulders as they are seeing patients. The reasons you list of independence and autonomy contribute to why Derm residency is so competitive. I realize up to now you believe that hard work always results in what you want at the end. Medical school is a different game bc EVERYONE is like this and this is definitely the case at top-tier medical schools. 50% of the class is at the bottom half of the class.

Bc you don't have foresight, that is why I am telling you now. I will say it in capital letters: THERE IS NO FOOLPROOF FORMULA THAT ENTITLES YOU TO A DERMATOLOGY RESIDENCY.

Which is why when you enter medical school, you have to be flexible in terms of specialty. If you can't do that, then med school is not for you.

 

[prioritiesinline]

You'll figure out soon enough from the med school journey that just bc you "try hard" (whatever that means) you may not get the specialty you want. You won't know how competitive you are for dermatology until the beginning of MS-4. By then you've accumulated 3 years of medical school student loan debt. In medical school almost everyone works hard, esp. at top tier med schools. Studying for Step 1 from the first semester of MS-1 is no assurance for derm, and you wouldn't be the only person doing it anyways.

While getting into derm is "formulaic" in some ways (I guess) those things in and of themselves are very difficult to achieve in terms of preclinical grades, Step 1, clerkship grades, getting elected to Alpha Omega Alpha (AOA), and having research (and not just case reports, either) as the rest of your class will also be competing to do the same. Getting interviews is also another hurdle, as almost everyone on the interview trail has the above.

All the more reason you should go for PA school or NP school, where you have a much higher chance of getting to relatively the same destination esp. since you're already convinced that no other specialty in medicine will make you happy.

Wait, you don't mean mostly everyone starts out wanting to do derm and then through the process realizes they're not competitive and changes their mind? Or just more than there are spots for? And since everyone is competitive then would there be an advantage to a pre-derm attending a lesser ranked med school and being able to perform better there?

 

[prioritiesinline]

Ugh from the above statements, i have to say: the idea of not becoming a dermatologist makes me really sad. Honestly, it's like my one dream and what i think about at least for a little bit each day.

I know me saying this may further make me seem unserious/trolllike or whatever was said before. But I can assure you i'm just someone who obsessively just really wants to do derm

 

[DermViser]

Wait, you don't mean mostly everyone starts out wanting to do derm and then through the process realizes they're not competitive and changes their mind? Or just more than there are spots for? And since everyone is competitive then would there be an advantage to a pre-derm attending a lesser ranked med school and being able to perform better there?

Sigh. There are a set number of derm residency programs and set number of spots. By the time MS-4 has hit, a lot of self-selection and weeding out has occurred in terms of who is realistically able to match into a Derm residency as a 4th year med student. Does every medical student who enters want to do Derm? No. But competitive specialties are competitive for a reason. There are more people wanting the specialty than there are spots available.

Even a lesser ranked medical school doesn't mean you'll be at the top of the class there. It's not like all the smart people went to top tier med schools and all the idiots and lunkheads went to their state public med school. People there are smart as well. There are a lot of different reasons why people choose to matriculate at a specific med school besides just academics. Any permutation of playing the odds, that you can think of, people have thought of before.

Like I said, and I will say it again, if as a pre-MS-1 the only specialty that will make you happy is Dermatology and no other specialty, you will be absolutely miserable in medical school in which you will do anything but Derm in terms of preclinicals and clinical clerkships. And if at the end it doesn't pan out and a Dean of Student Affairs (bc most Derm faculty members don't want the trouble of doing so) has to give it to you straight that Derm is not in the cards based on your academics/application, you'll be even more miserable.

 

[prioritiesinline]

Like honestly I hear you out @DermViser and I get the being flexible but honestly i feel like derm and specifically being a dermatologist is whatd really combine all the factors im looking for in a career. For example, ophtho is cool and would provide a similar lifestyle but i'm not that crazy about the biology of the eyes for now. Meanwhile psych is kind of ambiguous and i feel like i would be kinda unsure about everything. And theres no enough hands on medicine involved. Internal medicine is cool and can be autonomous but i feel like i need to specialize in order to be good at something (personally)

 

[DermViser]

Ugh from the above statements, i have to say: the idea of not becoming a dermatologist makes me really sad. Honestly, it's like my one dream and what i think about at least for a little bit each day.

I know me saying this may further make me seem unserious/trolllike or whatever was said before. But I can assure you i'm just someone who obsessively just really wants to do derm

I understand. At least in this forum here we all like Derm, so I don't think you're trolling at all. A little wet behind the ears in terms of knowing the realities, but not trolling. Which is why I am giving you an alternative route to relatively the same destination. PAs practice in many areas of Dermatology and don't have to do residency to achieve that. Based on your obvious dedication to doing well academically, you'll probably do quite well in PA school and get to do Derm.

All I am saying is that going into med school, with the only and sole purpose of getting into Derm is a recipe for disaster - both emotionally and financially.

 

[DermViser]

Like honestly I hear you out @DermViser and I get the being flexible but honestly i feel like derm and specifically being a dermatologist is whatd really combine all the factors im looking for in a career. For example, ophtho is cool and would provide a similar lifestyle but i'm not that crazy about the biology of the eyes for now. Meanwhile psych is kind of ambiguous and i feel like i would be kinda unsure about everything. And theres no enough hands on medicine involved. Internal medicine is cool and can be autonomous but i feel like i need to specialize in order to be good at something (personally)

Greater than 80% of IM residents subspecialize (do a fellowship) after an IM residency. I agree with you Derm combines a lot of good things that many med students want. That is why it is so competitive and getting even more ridiculously competitive - with people taking time off from med school to do Derm research (which isn't a guarantee).

You'll see at the end that many times, in terms of lifestyle at least, NP/PA/Physician doing Derm is very similar. I think you're more going off of perception of what a vast difference it will make if you're a physician doing derm. It isn't.

The filter to get into Derm residency is pretty tight for med students. Quite different in the PA and NP world where the filter just isn't as tight, and the PA and NPs students aren't as smart, and in which you can be a big fish in a small pool.

 

[DermViser]

I appreciate the humor but I am actually serious. I might come off as anxious and silly but I really am serious and looking for some solid advice cause I'm admittedly also a nerd and I guess kind of a "gunner"? I don't really see myself as a gunner though bc all of this is fueled by my anxiety/need to figure things out well in advance. So any true insight would be appreciated, thanks for the laugh, though.

@PatsyStone isn't joking.

 

[prioritiesinline]

Sigh. There are a set number of derm residency programs and set number of spots. By the time MS-4 has hit, a lot of self-selection and weeding out has occurred in terms of who is realistically able to match into a Derm residency as a 4th year med student. Does every medical student who enters want to do Derm? No. But competitive specialties are competitive for a reason. There are more people wanting the specialty than there are spots available.

Even a lesser ranked medical school doesn't mean you'll be at the top of the class there. It's not like all the smart people went to top tier med schools and all the idiots and lunkheads went to their state public med school. People there are smart as well. There are a lot of different reasons why people choose to matriculate at a specific med school besides just academics. Any permutation of playing the odds, that you can think of, people have thought of before.

Like I said, and I will say it again, if as a pre-MS-1 the only specialty that will make you happy is Dermatology and no other specialty, you will be absolutely miserable in medical school in which you will do anything but Derm in terms of preclinicals and clinical clerkships. And if at the end it doesn't pan out and a Dean of Student Affairs (bc most Derm faculty members don't want the trouble of doing so) has to give it to you straight that Derm is not in the cards based on your academics/application, you'll be even more miserable.

Like honestly med school and its requirements wouldnt be an issue at all. I actually think its going to be a lot of fun because i love biology and the body and just the idea and experience of medical school. I want to know more about everything. And i most likely would do IM+fellowship if not "able" to match into derm. Its just that i am literally willing to do anything to match. Like even take multiple years off to do research in derm during med school-get hella pubs, etc. As a worst case scenario, i would be even down to go to ANY derm residency anywhere, even tho id most likely be bitter there and have pictures of SF/LA/NY/Philly attached to my walls during it (imaging myself matching somewhere on a farm as i write this). Lol. Ughhhh i wish you had better news for me but i appreciate you keeping it real @DermViser

But now that the warnings are aside,
What positive advice do you have for me knowing my intentions?

Besides def attending a school this year, what could i do in M1 to position myself amazingly? Should I do derm research the summer before M1?


By the way, considering that Ive done derm research as an UG, im also wondering if this has had something to do w my med school interview invites? Like i wonder it some schools see my UG derm experience as me being really thirsty really early on? Bc its funny bc i didnt enter the position originally wanting derm, it was to check out research.

Do i look thirsty?

I know med schools apps are a crapshoot and theres no real formula to them but it is v surprising that certain schools of similar reputation to my current two candidates havent uttered a word or even rejected me outright. I know noone is entitled to anything in this process but i keep envisioning the adcoms all like "this applicant is thirsty, reject pile"

 

[DermViser]

Like honestly med school and its requirements wouldnt be an issue at all. I actually think its going to be a lot of fun because i love biology and the body and just the idea and experience of medical school. I want to know more about everything. And i most likely would do IM+fellowship if not "able" to match into derm. Its just that i am literally willing to do anything to match. Like even take multiple years off to do research in derm during med school-get hella pubs, etc. As a worst case scenario, i would be even down to go to ANY derm residency anywhere, even tho id most likely be bitter there and have pictures of SF/LA/NY/Philly attached to my walls during it (imaging myself matching somewhere on a farm as i write this). Lol. Ughhhh i wish you had better news for me but i appreciate you keeping it real @DermViser

But now that the warnings are aside,
What positive advice do you have for me knowing my intentions?

Besides def attending a school this year, what could i do in M1 to position myself amazingly? Should I do derm research the summer before M1?


By the way, considering that Ive done derm research as an UG, im also wondering if this has had something to do w my med school interview invites? Like i wonder it some schools see my UG derm experience as me being really thirsty really early on? Bc its funny bc i didnt enter the position originally wanting derm, it was to check out research.

Do i look thirsty?

I know med schools apps are a crapshoot and theres no real formula to them but it is v surprising that certain schools of similar reputation to my current two candidates havent uttered a word or even rejected me outright. I know noone is entitled to anything in this process but i keep envisioning the adcoms all like "this applicant is thirsty, reject pile"

I swear this thread is becoming like Pre-Allo.

1.Doing well in medical school, esp. in the basic sciences in the first 2 years, is more than just liking Biology. The volume and detail in medical school will be much greater than anything you've experienced in undergrad up to this point.
2. There are many students who are also willing to do anything to match. You are not special in this regard. This includes doing a year of Derm research. I don't think many schools allow you to take 2 years off solely to do Derm research.
3. Even the worst, lowest ranked Derm residency in the country is still competitive, bc Derm is just that competitive. That's the reality. You can not be geographically picky when it comes to Derm. Derm programs in SF (UCSF), LA (UCLA), NY (NYU, Mt. Sinai, etc.), Philadelphia (UPenn), are top derm programs not only bc of the programs themselves, but location.

You're putting way too many caveats as to what you want in terms of specialty, residency location, etc. at this point.

You really should not start doing derm research until the summer of MS-1 bc MS-1 will be difficult enough to do master the info and do well as far as grades.

Well you are kind of like a 10 or 11 in intensity, and need to take it down a couple of notches.

 

[DermViser]

See here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/m1-advice.1106969/

 

[DermViser]

It's actually really helpful. I'm learning lots. Like for example I did NOT know it is a career-ender to reapply with acceptances. I literally thought that it wouldn't be a big deal or taken into account. But apparently^, withdrawing is allowed and not punished as heavily?

Of course it's a big deal. It reflects on your judgement. Medical school is difficult enough to get into and with acceptances you're willing to throw those away to get something better. Withdrawing is only fine, bc then you have no way of knowing whether you would have been accepted or not to that school before applying again. Again it reflects judgement.

 

[deleted480308]

Like honestly med school and its requirements wouldnt be an issue at all. I actually think its going to be a lot of fun because i love biology and the body and just the idea and experience of medical school. I want to know more about everything. And i most likely would do IM+fellowship if not "able" to match into derm. Its just that i am literally willing to do anything to match. Like even take multiple years off to do research in derm during med school-get hella pubs, etc. As a worst case scenario, i would be even down to go to ANY derm residency anywhere, even tho id most likely be bitter there and have pictures of SF/LA/NY/Philly attached to my walls during it (imaging myself matching somewhere on a farm as i write this). Lol. Ughhhh i wish you had better news for me but i appreciate you keeping it real @DermViser

But now that the warnings are aside,
What positive advice do you have for me knowing my intentions?

Besides def attending a school this year, what could i do in M1 to position myself amazingly? Should I do derm research the summer before M1?


By the way, considering that Ive done derm research as an UG, im also wondering if this has had something to do w my med school interview invites? Like i wonder it some schools see my UG derm experience as me being really thirsty really early on? Bc its funny bc i didnt enter the position originally wanting derm, it was to check out research.

Do i look thirsty?

I know med schools apps are a crapshoot and theres no real formula to them but it is v surprising that certain schools of similar reputation to my current two candidates havent uttered a word or even rejected me outright. I know noone is entitled to anything in this process but i keep envisioning the adcoms all like "this applicant is thirsty, reject pile"

You have mediocre stats for a top 20 program, the silence isn't because you are thirsty

 

[LostinLift]

This was an obvious trap set for dermviser

 

[DermViser]

This was an obvious trap set for dermviser

I don't think it is, but it very well might be. It's not uncommon for premeds to be infatuated with a particular specialty and only concentrate on that specialty alone. Even if the OP is trolling, this thread has the benefit of helping lurkers here to see the realities, that you just can't go into med school with the caveat that you will be only happy going into 1 particular specialty only, much less a competitive one.

 

[prioritiesinline]

i am not trolling, nor am i setting "traps" to anyone. as i have expressed over and over, i just really REALLY want to do derm and am looking for super early advice so i could make the stars align as best as they can. even if the most i can make them align is to match in kansas or nebraska or even overseas if such an option exists. i know i said i prefer urban life, but realistically, i would go to one of these places and then just move out after residency.

i get the sense that my ambition is being ridiculed by some posters on this thread and i have to wonder if it has something to do with fear/regret of you folks not having planned early etc.

for example, when i worked in derm research as an UG i got the sense that the M2 in that lab trying to prep herself to match had a mildly antagonistic relationship with me, even though i was always very nice, respectful, etc. what i noticed particularly is when i would mention stuff about becoming competitive to match (like i told her she should take a year off and do research/get pubs to increase her chances, this rubbed her the wrong way bc she lashed out at me saying "ohhh thats not REQUIRED!!!!! i don't HAVE to do that"). Me saying to her that she should do it just to be safe provoked an even worse reaction and she basically told me idk what I'm talking about.

and other stuff too, like telling her about board scores and all this good stuff. she didnt seem to like the fact that i knew so much (and maybe more) at such a young age. i might be going out on a limb here, but i would even go as far to say that she felt threatened (competitively-wise). not by me per se, but by the realization that individuals like myself exist out there, against who she will be competing in the match--the so-called, early-planners. i was just trying to be nice to her, though, and genuinely was giving her good advice........


as a final note, as intense as i may come off, i do feel it is important to note that is really only my ambitions and goals which are naturally intense. i feel like everything i do i have to work 3x as hard for to achieve than anyone else. for ex., i had a bad history with the SAT in HS and so when the MCAT came along, i made sure to study WELL in advance and much more intensely this time around. in the end, i guess i did well, but comparing that to my fellow peer who studied for it for literally 3 weeks and got 2 points higher than me (i studied for 5 months nonstop, mind you), its not hat hotshot of an accomplishment. so basically, i'm not the most naturally gifted person, but i am willing to work hard and do what it takes. because i feel that i need to work extra extra hard, i'm trying to basically elucidate things or potential roadblocks early on so i can strategize around them. just thought i'd get a little personal so you get a better idea of where i'm going from. i'm intense, but its cause i have to be to keep up.

thanks for all the great advice @DermViser

 

[asmallchild]

Change of plans: moved to pre-allo instead for more people to peruse and for others to chime in.

 

[allantois]

There's a PA I know of who only does Botox and nothing else!
Pretty nice gig if you think about it.

http://www.anthonyloren.com/about-us.php

There's literally a derm residency by me where they pay residents $0 (zero!) and another one which pays $20,000 and yet another one which requires you to first be a primary care specialist

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Hey everyone,

This is something that has been aching me for this application cycle so I figured I'd ask one here using another account.

I want to become a dermatologist. That is the the specialty I have chosen after doing much shadowing and and soul-searching. I'm very ahead for my age and so you're gonna have to trust that I've decided on derm after a thorough examination of other specialities. My back-up would have to be pathology, but I just need human interaction and much of it, as well.

Anyway, I am a traditional applicant this cycle with a LizzyM of 70. My GPA is 3.7 but it actually is 3.85 if you disregard classes I took in HS. I attend a prestigious top 20 undergrad institution and have have an overall superb application, I would say. Amazing reccs, amazing research, and the works. The only part of my app that is lacking is the clinical experience, but even for that, I have more than 80 hours of hospital volunteering. I didnt put on my app that I've shadowed a dermatologist, cause I didnt really wanna shoot myself in the foot right from the start. (Although my UG research was in a derm lab after all).

This cycle has been extremely underwhelming for me. Even though I applied the day AMCAS opened, it is now December and I have received only two interviews (one at an institution ranked ~60 and ~30 acc. to USNews).

The reason I am concerned is because I KNOW just how important good research/connections/networking are to match into derm. Even though I like the two schools that I've been invited at for interview, and I actually happen to like the ~60 one more than the ~30 one, I am extremely worried that attending a non-top 20 will sever my chances of matching at a top 20 for derm or even matching at all. This is because I refuse to match anywhere that is not a metropolitan city. I can't do the whole "Idc I'll match anywhere even if its in Kansas thing". I need urban life.

My fears aren't baseless, by the way. I have been carefully examining the match lists of several schools and have noticed that the top 20 schools seem to prefer themselves when it comes to recruiting for their derm programs. Is there anything I'm missing here?

Also, even though I applied so early and its not December, might a top 20 school still invite me for interview?


I would appreciate any feedback at all. Just please don't tell me "wait until med school to decide if derm is for you" or anything like that because that wouldn't be much help since I've already decided. And also, I'd really appreciate ya'll keeping it real with me to be honest. No "you COULD match at a top 20 if you find the cure to melanoma while attending the ~60 school". I am a humble though meticulous and hardworking applicant. I am willing to do whatever it takes.

Basically, what I'm asking is...if the top 30 school is the best I can get in this year, should I take a year or two off an reapply and try again for a top 20? I am unwilling to retake my MCAT (34) and would most likely just do research that year/maybe some more clinical volunteering.

Also, I just found this website called Doximity that lists derm residency programs and their rankings by medical schools. It only lists the top 10 though. If anyone has access and can let me know what the programs after the top 10 are, I'd appreciate it as it would allow me to check the strength of the ~30 and ~60 med schools I've interviewed at.

Also, I know rankings are a vicious and cruel and stupid thing, but I also happen to know just how important prestige/connections/networking are in dermatology--and not to mention research output of derm departments--and so I think the whole matching process necessitates me looking a things through a shallow lens, unfortunately :/

Please help this very anxious wannabe dermatologist!

the bolded is probably why your cycle has been underwhelming. you're full of yourself. that's ok, lots of kids your age are. but it's what it is. nobody who says ish like "ahead for my age" or "wise beyond my years" can be taken particularly seriously. we'll see about your dermatology decision regardless of how sure you are right now. the odds are frankly that you'll test out of it (that's not a knock on you, most of us fall in that spectrum) regardless of where you go.

 

[ratman7]

Why are you so anxious before you're even in med school... you're basically flushing your life down the toilet at this point. Just because you "shadowed" or "did research" for a relatively small amount of time (compared to the several years actual dermatologists spend practicing, learning) doesn't make you know their work. Calm down, enjoy life, and go enjoy your free time while you have it.

 

[DermViser]

Change of plans: moved to pre-allo instead for more people to peruse and for others to chime in.

Oh boy!

 

[asmallchild]

Oh boy!

I do appreciate your attempts at trying to get through to the OP. I'm still not sure whether it's a troll post or not but like you said, it does have information that is worth reading for others. And like you mentioned, probably more for a pre-allo crowd than a derm residents/attendings forum where it was originally posted.

 

[DermViser]

I do appreciate your attempts at trying to get through to the OP. I'm still not sure whether it's a troll post or not but like you said, it does have information that is worth reading for others. And like you mentioned, probably more for a pre-allo crowd than a derm residents/attendings forum where it was originally posted.

No, I understand. It's more a moment for the comments, now that the thread has been moved to pre-allo (which is the correct move as the OP is a pre-med).

 

[mimelim]

I echo everything that @DermViser has said in this thread. Just a few other thoughts and I'll be a little blunter since I am in surgery after all (har har).

#1 You have no idea what clinical medicine is about. You don't. And that is fine. You've shadowed a Dermatologist, maybe a few other doctors and have less than 1 of my work weeks worth of hospital 'volunteering' as your basis for being all knowing about yourself and what you want to do. This isn't bad, nor is it even abnormal. We are the sum total of our experiences. However, as someone evaluating your application, you are dangerous as an applicant. If your attitude is, "I know it all and I know all about myself and yet I say things like, "Derm or bust!", things can go down hill very, VERY fast. Personally, I would be very hesitant to offer you a spot based on this alone.

#2 You say things like, "Amazing reccs, amazing research, and the works." to go with a 3.85/34 and are sitting with few interviews and not at your top choices. This does not compute. This is a major red flag. Yes, low clinical experience can hurt an application, but it will not sink you pre-interview everywhere. Given that the average pre-med has zero clue what a good LOR looks like or what good research looks like, I would hazard a guess that with these types of statements, you don't either. This is a pretty big red flag that there is this large disconnect.

#3 If you can't imagine doing anything but Dermatology in a large city, then you need a reality check. I'm sorry, but you do. Good goal? Yes. Realistic if you are a very great student and driven? Yes. Absolutely. There are a limited number of spots and Dermatology is a very desirable field for a lot of reasons. And, the vast majority of people want to be in major urban areas for a variety of reasons.

 

[DermViser]

i am not trolling, nor am i setting "traps" to anyone. as i have expressed over and over, i just really REALLY want to do derm and am looking for super early advice so i could make the stars align as best as they can. even if the most i can make them align is to match in kansas or nebraska or even overseas if such an option exists. i know i said i prefer urban life, but realistically, i would go to one of these places and then just move out after residency.

i get the sense that my ambition is being ridiculed by some posters on this thread and i have to wonder if it has something to do with fear/regret of you folks not having planned early etc.

for example, when i worked in derm research as an UG i got the sense that the M2 in that lab trying to prep herself to match had a mildly antagonistic relationship with me, even though i was always very nice, respectful, etc. what i noticed particularly is when i would mention stuff about becoming competitive to match (like i told her she should take a year off and do research/get pubs to increase her chances, this rubbed her the wrong way bc she lashed out at me saying "ohhh thats not REQUIRED!!!!! i don't HAVE to do that"). Me saying to her that she should do it just to be safe provoked an even worse reaction and she basically told me idk what I'm talking about.

and other stuff too, like telling her about board scores and all this good stuff. she didnt seem to like the fact that i knew so much (and maybe more) at such a young age. i might be going out on a limb here, but i would even go as far to say that she felt threatened (competitively-wise). not by me per se, but by the realization that individuals like myself exist out there, against who she will be competing in the match--the so-called, early-planners. i was just trying to be nice to her, though, and genuinely was giving her good advice........

as a final note, as intense as i may come off, i do feel it is important to note that is really only my ambitions and goals which are naturally intense. i feel like everything i do i have to work 3x as hard for to achieve than anyone else. for ex., i had a bad history with the SAT in HS and so when the MCAT came along, i made sure to study WELL in advance and much more intensely this time around. in the end, i guess i did well, but comparing that to my fellow peer who studied for it for literally 3 weeks and got 2 points higher than me (i studied for 5 months nonstop, mind you), its not hat hotshot of an accomplishment. so basically, i'm not the most naturally gifted person, but i am willing to work hard and do what it takes. because i feel that i need to work extra extra hard, i'm trying to basically elucidate things or potential roadblocks early on so i can strategize around them. just thought i'd get a little personal so you get a better idea of where i'm going from. i'm intense, but its cause i have to be to keep up.

thanks for all the great advice @DermViser

Ok, so I'll bite. First off, Nebraska doesn't have a Dermatology residency in the entire state. #2 - Your ambition isn't being ridiculed. What is being ridiculed (by others, not myself) is that you've already gotten things planned so much to the point that it is constricting. That's a red flag bc they are a lot of things during med school that won't go your way, and you have to be resilient. Going into medical school with the attitude of, I will only be happy in medicine if I get to do x specialty, is not only a bad move financially, but also will make your entire med school experience miserable bc you'll see everything thru the lens of only that specialty. Kind of like this:

Something like a specialty decision is done at least after having finished 1 year of med school. It's great to plan and I applaud you for it, but to brush off people's advice as somehow being due to jealousy or "not having planned early" is quite gunnerish (that may not have been what you intended, but as you'll realize in clerkships, what you intended and what is felt can be quite different and affect your evaluations immensely). It's an important skill to master more than just medical knowledge. Medical school isn't just filling out multiple choice exams and getting a grade. So much of your medical school performance has to be known, and only near the end will you know which specialties you are still eligible for. You could plan your entire Step 1 study schedule out right now, and it still wouldn't make a difference.

Going into med school with only 1 specialty and 1 specialty only that will make you happy is a very bad move from an emotional and financial standpoint. Hence why I said PA (more this one) or NP would be better for you since they can practice derm without having to go thru a filter and have applied for and completed a derm residency. And as dedicated and ambitious as you are, you'll probably excel. What's holding you back is honestly, your ego, and I doubt you've shadowed an NP or PA.

The reason the MS-2 probably didn't like your advice is bc #1 - she's still an MS-2 so she still has a lot to complete on her medical school performance and bc #2 - you're the LAST person she wants to hear about match advice from since you are a premed. Right or wrong, you are just a premed although obviously you're more knowledgeable than your average in this area.

I understand your ambition and goals are intense, and you kind of want to know the roadblocks ahead of you and prepare for them but you haven't even been accepted to medical school yet. Not to mention, you won't always be prepared for every single road block ahead of you. I would also work on your studying efficiency, bc 5 months is a LONG TIME to study for the MCAT (I don't know what your score is).

Edit: Oops, realize you got a 34 on the MCAT and you've been accepted to med school, just not to a Top 20. I'll then say it again, if you give up that acceptance and reapply next year for the goal of getting into Top 20 med school, it will not turn out well for you. They WILL know you had an acceptance and will put 2 and 2 together. I'll also repeat (again), you're putting yourself in huge danger both emotionally, mentally, and financially, if you enter medical school with the viewpoint that you will ONLY be able to be happy in medicine if you do dermatology and no other specialty.

 

[deleted480308]

It's like watching a few movies with planes in it and applying to pilot training but only if I can fly 737 because screw those other sh$%&y planes, oh and also only in this one town I like, oh and I don't fly before 3pm because I need to watch my soaps.

 

[DermViser]

It's like watching a few movies with planes in it and applying to pilot training but only if I can fly 737 because screw those other sh$%&y planes, oh and also only in this one town I like, oh and I don't fly before 3pm because I need to watch my soaps.

Funny I would have described this entire thing as seeing a plane flying, crashing, and bursting into flames in very slow motion.

I agree though. You can't put caveats when you're going into medical school, at least not initially. You certainly can't say, I only want to match Derm and only do it in a major metropolitan city like San Francisco/Los Angeles/NYC/Philadelphia.

I think it's good this thread was moved bc I think @PatsyStone's or any other applicant's head would have exploded.

 

[DermViser]

You're gonna have a tough shot at getting the research opportunities and connections you'll need to succeed in the dermatology match at a lower ranked school, especially if you are aiming for a metropolitan program. I'd say withdraw this year and re-apply next year after doing some more research and clinical shadowing. Your MCAT is sub-par for the top schools, but if you are dead set on not retaking it then I'd say get in research and an interesting non-medical experience, like teaching abroad. Also, emphasize your passion for primary care in interviews - medical schools love that.

Accept she already has acceptances. It would be one thing if she withdrew before getting any acceptances but she already has one in hand. I think @Goro or @LizzyM have the gravitas to say what will happen if she gives up the acceptance and applies again next year.

Also why would Top 20 schools be preferential towards primary care? They're obviously not.

 

[Goro]

We have rejected people who have failed out or withdrew from other medical schools.

MD schools, because they can see where you've been accepted, will be even more ruthless in rejecting anyone so foolish to as to do something like what OP was speculating on.

OPs post made me think her attitude was "Derm or I'm not gonna be a doctor". We'll see how far that goes, assuming that it wasn't a troll post.

Accept she already has acceptances. It would be one thing if she withdrew before getting any acceptances but she already has one in hand. I think @Goro or @LizzyM have the gravitas to say what will happen if she gives up the acceptance and applies again next year.

Also why would Top 20 schools be preferential towards primary care? They're obviously not.

 

[NoDakDok]

I have got to give it to you, @DermViser, you're sticking this out like a champ. I think I'd be writing a script for metoprolol and calling for a cardio consult at this point if I were you.

For OP: For the love of God, don't withdraw. That's silly. Any medical school in the country can get you into any specialty anywhere. It may not be ideal to go to an unranked state school instead of going to UCSF if you want to go into UCSF's dermatology residency, but that doesn't mean if you do well enough you can't accomplish that. It's far more on you than it is on your alma mater. The fact you only attended a Top 20 undergrad isn't the reason you only have 2 interviews, you are the reason you only have 2 interviews. If you perform like a stiff at Harvard you're still a stiff. If you perform like Doogie Howser at Podunk State University, you're still Doogie Howser.

 

[DermViser]

We have rejected people who have failed out or withdrew from other medical schools.

MD schools, because they can see where you've been accepted, will be even more ruthless in rejecting anyone so foolish to as to do something like what OP was speculating on.

OPs post made me think her attitude was "Derm or I'm not gonna be a doctor". We'll see how far that goes, assuming that it wasn't a troll post.

Do you mean withdrew as in leaving the medical school before failing and being kicked out? Or are you referring to people who withdrew applications from med schools before they've received acceptances?

 

[PatsyStone]

I think it's good this thread was moved bc I think @PatsyStone's or any other applicant's head would have exploded.

It wouldn't explode, but it's difficult to understand. Currently going through the application process, I will say that I significantly underestimated how brutal the derm match is. Maybe it has always been this way, or maybe things are getting more competitive, but after talking to other applicants, it seems like having an awesome Step 1 + awesome Step 2 + pubs + research year + AOA =/= tons of interviews, let alone at top programs/programs in desirable locations. Everyone knows derm is competitive, but I don't think people really understand how crazy it actually is. Consequently, when people say "I haven't started med school yet, but I want to match derm," it's ludicrous because they don't realize that even if you get a 260 on Step 1 with AOA, you are in no way, shape, or form guaranteed a spot, no matter how bad you want it or good your intentions are. I'm all for aiming high, but matching derm is exhausting

 

[DermViser]

I have got to give it to you, @DermViser, you're sticking this out like a champ. I think I'd be writing a script for metoprolol and calling for a cardio consult at this point if I were you.

For OP: For the love of God, don't withdraw. That's silly. Any medical school in the country can get you into any specialty anywhere. It may not be ideal to go to an unranked state school instead of going to UCSF if you want to go into UCSF's dermatology residency, but that doesn't mean if you do well enough you can't accomplish that. It's far more on you than it is on your alma mater. The fact you only attended a Top 20 undergrad isn't the reason you only have 2 interviews, you are the reason you only have 2 interviews.

For the OP or for me? (hard for me to tell as it could apply to either, lol). I realize it's really hard to explain it well enough for premeds to understand. I think @PatsyStone's idea above might be the right idea (esp. for me). Up to this point, your typical SDN premed has gotten everything they've wanted with the work they put in (barring the Top 20 schtick but let's put that aside from the OP for now). So it's very difficult to explain in a tangible way how much tighter the filter and bottleneck get once you enter medical school.

 

[DermViser]

It wouldn't explode, but it's difficult to understand. Currently going through the application process, I will say that I significantly underestimated how brutal the derm match is. Maybe it has always been this way, or maybe things are getting more competitive, but after talking to other applicants, it seems like having an awesome Step 1 + awesome Step 2 + pubs + research year + AOA =/= tons of interviews, let alone at top programs/programs in desirable locations. Everyone knows derm is competitive, but I don't think people really understand how crazy it actually is. Consequently, when people say "I haven't started med school yet, but I want to match derm," it's ludicrous because they don't realize that even if you get a 260 on Step 1 with AOA, you are in no way, shape, or form guaranteed a spot, no matter how bad you want it or good your intentions are. I'm all for aiming high, but matching derm is exhausting

I meant more the intensity and caveats. We've had derm rotators with this much intensity and I swear it drives us nuts sometimes (not a judgement on OP).