FL amendment approved

[jonwilli]

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For those not from FL, yesterday they approved 3 ammendments that will affect docs:

#3 Lawyers only can make 30% of the first 250,000 awarded and 10% over that plus expenses.

#7 Malpractice claims against docs, hospitals, etc. will be open record now

#8 Three strikes and you are out. No doctor with 3 malpractice suits decided in court will be able to have a license in FL. Of course, this will not affect settled cases, which will force docs to settle more instead of fight them in court. Also, the speculation is that they are trying to make it retroactive, but i do not know how that will work yet. There go the neurosurgeons, OBs, etc.

 

[Robz]

mark my words...the 3 strikes amendment will be challenged in supreme court. I am betting it will be found unconsitutional.

Too many issues....no time frame....settlements....destruction of life and family of those with removed licenses (MD/DO fliping burgers)....

 

[Sessamoid]

mark my words...the 3 strikes amendment will be challenged in supreme court. I am betting it will be found unconsitutional.

Too many issues....no time frame....settlements....destruction of life and family of those with removed licenses (MD/DO fliping burgers)....

What about it do you think the courts will find unconstitutional? If that's what Floridians want, then fine. They can deal with having limited access to high-risk specialties, once the OBs, EPs, and neurosurgeons decide to move somewhere where it isn't so hostile. I'm so glad I moved...

 

[Robz]

What about it do you think the courts will find unconstitutional? If that's what Floridians want, then fine. They can deal with having limited access to high-risk specialties, once the OBs, EPs, and neurosurgeons decide to move somewhere where it isn't so hostile. I'm so glad I moved...

I bet the lawyers will find something about affecting people livelyhood and what are you to do with someone that has practiced for 40 years and finally got a third lawsuit in OB/GYN that stops them from practicing. Since they no longer will have a FL license then they may not be able to go to anothe state due to retroprocity (sp?).

Sorry but I know you have been a doctor in our community for most of your life but now cause of your mistakes you have to retire/work at walmart/make tacos at taco bell/go back to school for another job.

I know physicians are held to a higher standard and that good. You just don't see these type of admentments being thrown around to other professions. If your a lawyer that loses 3 death row cases and your defendant dies you don't lose your license...extreme cases but you get the point.

It sounds like a good idea...lets get rid of all the "bad" doctors. I think its a little extreme in their wording. Now...3 convictions in a court of law in 5..maybe 10 years, thats a case to ask the AMA to step in and do some regularion or removal of licenses. To add to the point FL just passes another law that allows the malpractice record of hospitals and physicians to be released to the public. This means that a patient can do the shopping on a physician and know their record and past. Also, from what I gathered in the wording of the amendment when I read it is that a settlement is considered one of the 3 types of convictions. Now, if its an out of court settlement I would think not but any in court settlement I think would be. Since a lot of insurance companies settle this can cause a problem in the long run.

 

[Sessamoid]

I bet the lawyers will find something about affecting people livelyhood and what are you to do with someone that has practiced for 40 years and finally got a third lawsuit in OB/GYN that stops them from practicing. Since they no longer will have a FL license then they may not be able to go to anothe state due to retroprocity (sp?).

Nothing prevents that person from getting a license in another state. It may be tougher, but it's still very possible. So what constitutional tenet is it again that you're saying is violated here? You seem to be saying that it's just not fair. Well, welcome to the legal world. Nobody said it had anything to do with fairness.

 

[dradams]

I may be wrong about this, but I was under the impression that if you settled a case out of court it would still count as one of the three strikes. I heard this from a doc I know who said that because of this, the 3 strikes amendment will affect a lot of docs in FL.

 

[DrQuinn]

I may be wrong about this, but I was under the impression that if you settled a case out of court it would still count as one of the three strikes. I heard this from a doc I know who said that because of this, the 3 strikes amendment will affect a lot of docs in FL.

Nope. That's why the lawyers wanted it. It will nto affet settlements... this way the physicians will be SCARED to go to court as they don't want three marks against htem, so they'll settle out MUCH MUCH easier. So instead of settling for $100k like we used to, the lawyers will not only settle out for lets say $500k. Its a win win situation for the lawyers. Yeah, we cut down their fees but they'll make up for that in volume.

Q

 

[flighterdoc]

mark my words...the 3 strikes amendment will be challenged in supreme court. I am betting it will be found unconsitutional.

Too many issues....no time frame....settlements....destruction of life and family of those with removed licenses (MD/DO fliping burgers)....

Especially if it's retroactive - sounds like a bill of attainder...

 

[docB]

Anyone in FL should make plans to get out (Quinn). This is one of the most onerous pieces of legislation I've ever seen. Imagine some of the possibilities:

You're a doc who already has 2 "strikes." Every lawyer in the state will be constantly suing you because they know you will want to settle rather than fight and possibly get your last strike.

The cost of any offered settlement will go up because of the added incentive not to go to court.

Getting dropped from a suit that you're not really involved in will get harder because the lawyers know you have a greatly increased incentive to settle.

There are big sections on all license and privilege applications about having a license revoked. If you strike out in FL you probably won't be able to leave and start over somewhere else.

 

[Febrifuge]

...You're a doc who already has 2 "strikes." Every lawyer in the state will be constantly suing you because they know you will want to settle rather than fight and possibly get your last strike.

I'm not a doc yet, and I'm no lawyer either, so I'll leave it to those with more and better info. But that's where I start to wonder if there could be a good constitutional argument. There's an effect of denying due process to physicians in that situation. There also seems to be an equal protection problem, if physicians as a class have such a divergent experience with a system that's supposed to serve everybody.

 

[dradams]

Thanks for clearing that up. That does sound pretty bad for the docs. Quinn, do ER docs get sued a lot like some of the high risk specialties? I'm going to be attending NSU starting next year and am interested in EM (among other things).

 

[docB]

But that's where I start to wonder if there could be a good constitutional argument. There's an effect of denying due process to physicians in that situation.

The lawyer's argument would be that this has nothing to do with due process. You can still have your due process and your day in court. You would be choosing to settle not being denied the opportunity to go to court. The fact that the cost of losing a court case is loss of licensure would be irrelevent as a constitutional argument.

There also seems to be an equal protection problem, if physicians as a class have such a divergent experience with a system that's supposed to serve everybody.

There is already an equal protection problem but it doesn't mean anything. Lawyers can be sued for malpractice too. They just never are. Just because docs are getting screwed won't count for much.

Remember some of the horrible things about medical malpractice cases:
-Lawyers write the laws, try and judge the cases and it all happens on their turf, in a realm foreign to doctors. That's why it's just desserts to refuse to treat them when they come on our turf.
-Jury trials are not about right and wrong. They are about money and showmanship. If a lawyer can sway the emotions of 12 people with no medical knowledge he hits the jackpot.
-Outcomes are more important than care.
-Documentation is more important than care.

 

[captbadass]

For those not from FL, yesterday they approved 3 ammendments that will affect docs:

#3 Lawyers only can make 30% of the first 250,000 awarded and 10% over that plus expenses.

#7 Malpractice claims against docs, hospitals, etc. will be open record now

#8 Three strikes and you are out. No doctor with 3 malpractice suits decided in court will be able to have a license in FL. Of course, this will not affect settled cases, which will force docs to settle more instead of fight them in court. Also, the speculation is that they are trying to make it retroactive, but i do not know how that will work yet. There go the neurosurgeons, OBs, etc.

i believe #7 was more along the lines of opening up all medical record to outside scrutiny, not just malpractice cases. i remember hearing a doc say that if 7 passes, then lawyers can just kind of flip through records looking for cases of malpractice to pursue. the situation in florida is ridiculous right now. i will definitely not be practicing in my home state of florida if things continue in this direction. it's a shame because the population continues to grow but with the malignant environment for physicians you can be sure that very few new docs will want to start a practice in florida.

 

[aphistis]

How could a law opening medical records take effect right now, with the HIPAA Gestapo alive and well?

 

[captbadass]

How could a law opening medical records take effect right now, with the HIPAA Gestapo alive and well?

This amendment would give patients the right to review, upon request, records of health care facilities' or providers' adverse medical incidents, including those which could cause injury or death. Provides that patients' identities should not be disclosed.

 

[DrQuinn]

Anyone in FL should make plans to get out (Quinn). This is one of the most onerous pieces of legislation I've ever seen. Imagine some of the possibilities:

You're a doc who already has 2 "strikes." Every lawyer in the state will be constantly suing you because they know you will want to settle rather than fight and possibly get your last strike.

The cost of any offered settlement will go up because of the added incentive not to go to court.

Getting dropped from a suit that you're not really involved in will get harder because the lawyers know you have a greatly increased incentive to settle.

There are big sections on all license and privilege applications about having a license revoked. If you strike out in FL you probably won't be able to leave and start over somewhere else.

I definately plan on getting the hell out of Dodge when I'm done with residency. Goin' up to Virginia, a staunch Republican state that takes great care of its physicians. 1 million dollar cap on non economic damages.

Q

 

[docB]

I definately plan on getting the hell out of Dodge when I'm done with residency. Goin' up to Virginia, a staunch Republican state that takes great care of its physicians. 1 million dollar cap on non economic damages.
Q

Why not Vegas?

I just talked to a buddy of mine who's chief res at one of the gas programs down there. He really wanted to take this cool job in Ft Pierce (FL) but now I think he's gonna bail out. I don't blame him.

 

[Sessamoid]

Why not Vegas?

I just talked to a buddy of mine who's chief res at one of the gas programs down there. He really wanted to take this cool job in Ft Pierce (FL) but now I think he's gonna bail out. I don't blame him.

Funny. When I first moved to Florida, the house I rented was owned by an anesthesiologist at the hospital I had just started at. I never quite met the guy because the malpractice insurance costs had recently driven him to move out of state permanently.

 

[jayman]

FL is all screwed up...it's no wonder that the Gods have chosen to smite them with hurricanes, underachieving NBA teams (the Heat and Magic??? Please...), and an ever-expanding elderly population who can't drive their cars worth $hit.

Oh well...just another state I won't be applying to residency for. Maybe these laws are an indirect way to exert some population control...really sick patients who need specialists or just your good old geriatrician won't have access or will have to wait a long while to get seen...and they may die/acquire some morbidity due to the delay...old and sick people get picked off - sounds like someone wants to maximize a few Darwinian forces.

Scum-sucking lawyers can do whatever they want, but I agree with DocB (I think that's who it was) who stated that when they come on our turf, they'd better keep it a secret that they are a$$-munching malpractice lawyers.

 

[southerndoc]

It sounds like a good idea...lets get rid of all the "bad" doctors. I think its a little extreme in their wording. Now...3 convictions in a court of law in 5..maybe 10 years, thats a case to ask the AMA to step in and do some regularion or removal of licenses. To add to the point FL just passes another law that allows the malpractice record of hospitals and physicians to be released to the public. This means that a patient can do the shopping on a physician and know their record and past. Also, from what I gathered in the wording of the amendment when I read it is that a settlement is considered one of the 3 types of convictions. Now, if its an out of court settlement I would think not but any in court settlement I think would be. Since a lot of insurance companies settle this can cause a problem in the long run.

Is it really such a good idea? Consider this:

* The average emergency physician is sued every 3 years. If we adopt the 3 in 10 policy, guess who is out of a job in 3 years?

* Most juries award based on patient sympathy, not based on actual medical negligence or malpractice. Will a review board actually review these cases to determine if the physician indeed deviated from a standard of care?

* Physicians who do leave the community will likely go unreplaced. Suddenly Florida doesn't look as attractive to lure new physicians into the state. Who wants to become settled in a particular town or city only to have to move their entire family, leave their friends, etc. because they have to move to another state to practice if they get 3 lawsuits?

* By passing this legislation, Floridians will be done a disservice and will likely become a federal government area of need within 20 years.

* This legislation will now cause former plaintiffs and malpractice attorneys to find it harder to find care than in previous years. Why? Because more physicians will use patient profiling services, such as DoctorsKnow.Us.

 

[Sessamoid]

Is it really such a good idea? Consider this:

Well, Floridians can't blame it on the politicians, as this was a citizen initiative. They voted for this themselves, so if they find themselves without any doctors in a few years, then it's their own faults.

 

[Robz]

Is it really such a good idea? Consider this:

* The average emergency physician is sued every 3 years. If we adopt the 3 in 10 policy, guess who is out of a job in 3 years?

* Most juries award based on patient sympathy, not based on actual medical negligence or malpractice. Will a review board actually review these cases to determine if the physician indeed deviated from a standard of care?

* Physicians who do leave the community will likely go unreplaced. Suddenly Florida doesn't look as attractive to lure new physicians into the state. Who wants to become settled in a particular town or city only to have to move their entire family, leave their friends, etc. because they have to move to another state to practice if they get 3 lawsuits?

* By passing this legislation, Floridians will be done a disservice and will likely become a federal government area of need within 20 years.

* This legislation will now cause former plaintiffs and malpractice attorneys to find it harder to find care than in previous years. Why? Because more physicians will use patient profiling services, such as DoctorsKnow.Us.

Like I said...it "sounds" like a good idea but in reality its crap. My hope is that there will be litigation that will help protect the physicians from completely losing their quality of life due to settlements and the like. You just don't see amendments like this for any other profession.

I agree with most of your points. I used to want to come practice in florida and it was a reason I went to medical school here. Now, I am looking to doing residency elsewhere and leaving the state due to a lot of issues around here including the 3 strikes and malpractice costs rising. It today's ligitious society its all to easy to get sued.

 

[docB]

* By passing this legislation, Floridians will be done a disservice and will likely become a federal government area of need within 20 years.

More like by this Spring based on what I'm hearing. I already know 2 docs (one gas, one EM) who will be moving from or aborting a planned move to the sunshine and litigation state.

 

[Annette]

This amendment would give patients the right to review, upon request, records of health care facilities' or providers' adverse medical incidents, including those which could cause injury or death. Provides that patients' identities should not be disclosed.

It took a letter and a phone call from an attending for me to get just the number of CVAs my hospital treated over a 5 year period from medical records! Now any piece of slime can puruse the records? Thank goodness I never wanted to practice in Florida.

 

[Surgery2Do]

I am in Tampa, Florida and last week took my mother to St. Joes. Hosp. ER, the nurse told me that many doctors are planning to leave the state of Florida and already notified the hospital.

I am in the match this year and was planning to apply to Tampa Gen. Hosp., but now I am not sure I desire to stay in Florida.

Most people voting did not even understand the amendments because they were twisted and misleading.

Many doctors put out signs vote Yes on 3, but I only know of one doctor who mentioned to my grandmother what the votes on 7 & 8 meant for doctors.

Everyone of my friends and family voted yes for 3 and no for 7 & 8, but all 3 got a yes and 7 & 8 is bad medicine.

What gets me is on 8 they referred to the amendment as bad doctors, what about bad greedy lawyers.

At least most people voted for Bush and I am glad he will get 4 more years. It is sad that John Edwards wife has breast cancer, but I would be afraid to assume her medical care.

Some ob/gyn's in Tampa have told me that they will be refusing to give medical care to lawyers.

 

[fuegorama]

Yep, my boy lost.

However, have any of you folks that are complaining so loudly about these Fl. amendments missed the switch.

Fl. went republican in a big way. The same folks who put W in for 4 more also voted against physicians.

As a profession we must acknowledge this shift.
The face of the GOP is no longer the money-clutching pin-striped robber baron rushing to his Thursday golf round with the town docs.

No, this historical figure has been replaced by a guy with a short-sleeve white button up shirt equipped with flaming crosses for eyes.

He and his "brethren" are fed a fairly constant stream of commercials that end with "getting the money you deserve" as they gaze with unblinking attention at CBN and FOX. (really, have you watched a half-hour of that cr@p?)
Litigators throw big money after this stuff because this is their audience.

If we look at these two seemingly disparate voting patterns in Florida, we see the true issue with this election.

No matter the distance from the truth, regardless of the separation of image and reality, the winner is the guy who can sell it to the public.

We as docs (present and future) must do a better job of selling our concerns. To paraphrase what a poster said in another thread, "I see docs as greedy, small-minded SOBs". That image is shared by a large segment of our population. We can change this image. Some reality dosing is what we desparately need to be prescibing.


If it passes, tort reform in its present incarnation will be largely ineffectual. Until our patients are made aware of the real costs of an outrageous/imbalanced civil system, we will lose this fight.

 

[Su4n2]

i am wondering what the AMA and the doctors of FL did to counter this ammendment. was this a big issue, or was it just slipped in?
what do you think should have been done diffrently?
susan

 

[captbadass]

i am wondering what the AMA and the doctors of FL did to counter this ammendment. was this a big issue, or was it just slipped in?
what do you think should have been done diffrently?
susan

trial lawyers basically used 7 and 8 as bargaining tools for the fma to drop 3. the fma wouldn't budge on 3, thus, 7 and 8 remained on the ballot. i dont recall seeing any advertising against 7 or 8. the fma's focus was definitely getting 3 passed. i will be starting med school next aug and i look forward to seeing how this situation takes shape over the next several years. im hoping that by the time i am starting a residency this situation will be resolved. obviously, people are going to have to suffer and die from decreased access, physician shortages, etc. for things to change. this is unfortunate, but we all must remember that the your friendly, neighborhood trial lawyer is simply looking out for the little guy 😉 .

 

[Surgery2Do]

I am in Tampa and people were stating that they could not even understand the amendments they were voting for, so most of them just said yes to everything.

The way that amendment 8 read to the non medical community was that the state was banning bad doctors who cut the wrong leg off in surgery.


As the doctors leave the state of Florida, things will eventually change.

I wonder if the residency programs will have problems matching this year?