Florida Schools Application Thread (2008) part 2

[Dendrite]

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You speak so staunchly about this -- it's kind of amusing. Some of it is just down right funny. Do you work in the admissions office? You seem to know a lot about the admissions process at UF.

I don't really think anything you're saying is true. All schools admissions offices operate so differently, so to put fault at one school for not having any sort of parallels with another is ridiculous. As far as UF mostly accepting only Ivy Leaguers thus far, that's far off from what I can see. Have you seen the seen the UF COM 2012 group on facebook? It's 80% UF students, with a few from UCF and others from non-Ivy OOS schools.

As has been heavily discussed on this forum and others in SDN, you can't judge a school based off of it's match list. It's obvious with UF's board scores and other credentials that students do have the option of pursuing more competitive specialties but are opting not to for whatever reason. Some people have a true passion for FP, Peds, Psych, etc regardless of their previous research, grades, or board scores. UM has very, very similar stats and credentials as UF but (this year) students went for more competitive specialties. You speak as if UM and UF are rivaling to get the best match list.

👍

I am baffled by the generalization of how all ivy league students are rich, arrogant, and spoiled. I think axlax is using anecdotal experiences he had with UF to create generalizations.

It is impossible to fabricate conclusions based on a specific match list; we have no idea of the dynamics of the class. I even remember Axlax mentioning this in an earlier post.

The one thing I keep hearing time and time again, from med students who have just matched as well as physicians, is that the best residency spots will go to the most qualified physicians seeking those spots, regardless of where they got their undergraduate medical education.

 

[axlaxl1]

👍

I am baffled by the generalization of how all ivy league students are rich, arrogant, and spoiled. I think axlaxl is using anecdotal experiences he had with UF to create generalizations.

It is impossible to fabricate conclusions based on a specific match list; we have no idea of the dynamics of the class. I even remember Axlax mentioning this in an earlier post.

The one thing I keep hearing time and time again, from med students who have just matched as well as physicians, is that the best residency spots will go to the most qualified physicians seeking those spots, regardless of where they got their undergraduate medical education.

First, let me explain my position, I have no problem with IVY league students. My issues stems from the way UF treats everyone else that isn't from UF or an IVY league school. I am sorry, but I am not sitting on the admissions board at UF but I have spoken with people who are and others who know people on the board and have confirmed some of these practices.

The other poster stated UF takes mostly UF students because they have the largest pre-med group of students. This is in fact true for the most part. However, this will change dramatically with the two new medical schools opening up and the enlargement of the UM Boca campus. Still, I am totally fine with UF giving preference to UF students. To me that is no where near the issue. In fact, it speaks volume of their pre-med program that is top notch. Other pre-med programs should emulate a lot of things they do.

With all of that said, the practice they choose for obtaining medical students is (IMO) hurting them. I feel that if a student walks in with good numbers, good personality, and good extras they should be given equal chance of getting in being a Florida resident.

Come on, am I crazy? Do we not all remember our UF interviews this year. I felt like a popper in a field of princes and princesses. Not that I cared much but it was mightily different than either of my UM interviews.

Now what is interesting about this and why the process seems Purus for UF is that most of these gunners choose other schools. BUT, in the meanwhile they gave all the other people a bad taste in their mouth when receiving a big ole HOLD from UF when knowing the other students with higher status probably fared better, and yes of course UF students (which is OK by me as stated previously.)

Lastly, I did state earlier that the dynamics of the class is unknown so a final judgement can't be made about why exactly the match class took place as it did. However, with that said, I think a lackluster match class does say something. Meaning, the numbers seem a bit too low on second look. I mean they are the ones to brag about scores so why wouldn't the obvious bragging come with matching? As well, when a student chooses a school matching comes into play, especially those with choices. Top students make this decision everyday. In fact, one of the biggest regrets when concerning the school a student choose is how well are these students matching and how that might play out for them. Something to keep in mind this could be a one year anomaly, and perhaps next year it will level out better for UF. If that is the case then I am all wrong in my analysis but if it is like this again, and again, and again, then something needs a changing at the great UF.

 

[Team Zissou]

As for UF going for Ivy Leaguers...I agree completely. I turned in my app to UF in January...stupid, I know. I attribute the fact that I didn't even get an interview solely to this fact. But when I turned my app in in person, they had a bulletin board on the wall with a picture, name, and school listed for everyone who had been accepted up to that point. I was blown away, and disheartened. There were already upwards of sixty or seventy-five people on the board, and I randomly read where a few of them were from: Hopkins, Yale, Harvard, Yale, Hopkins, Duke, Duke, UF, Brown......

Yea im pretty sure Hopkins and Duke aren't Ivy..

 

[gujuDoc]

Yea im pretty sure Hopkins and Duke aren't Ivy..

I think a lot of people don't realize that Ivy league is just a league like the SEC or Big East or PAC 10, etc.

They here ivy league and assume it is referring top ranked schools just because top ranked schools are part of it. So they assume schools like Hopkins, MIT, and Duke are part of it though they aren't.

I think in that context most people are referring to top ranked schools.

 

[gujuDoc]

People come on now! We can't necessarily judge the match lists based on limited data. They do brag about board scores but you know what? How do we know that these students want these fields like ortho, plastics, rad onco, or derm? It is hard to decipher what is a good match list without delving into private data (how many people wanted derm that got derm vs. how many people that wanted derm but had to change to another field because they didn't match or have the scores to do derm for example).

Also, IM; IM is always big in numbers but that doesn't mean its not competitive. It means people are doing it to subspecialize in the more competitive things like cardiology, pulmonology/critical care, nephrology, allergy/immunology, hematology/oncology, and other fields. So take the match lists with a grain of salt. Look more to what kind of clinical experiences they give you, location, general gut feeling about the school.

 

[gujuDoc]

You speak so staunchly about this -- it's kind of amusing. Some of it is just down right funny. Do you work in the admissions office? You seem to know a lot about the admissions process at UF.

I don't really think anything you're saying is true. All schools admissions offices operate so differently, so to put fault at one school for not having any sort of parallels with another is ridiculous. As far as UF mostly accepting only Ivy Leaguers thus far, that's far off from what I can see. Have you seen the seen the UF COM 2012 group on facebook? It's 80% UF students, with a few from UCF and others from non-Ivy OOS schools.

As has been heavily discussed on this forum and others in SDN, you can't judge a school based off of it's match list. It's obvious with UF's board scores and other credentials that students do have the option of pursuing more competitive specialties but are opting not to for whatever reason. Some people have a true passion for FP, Peds, Psych, etc regardless of their previous research, grades, or board scores. UM has very, very similar stats and credentials as UF but (this year) students went for more competitive specialties. You speak as if UM and UF are rivaling to get the best match list.

I think this is a good post. Both schools are great. Both schools will give you great opportunities. Go to the one that is best fit for you.

 

[gujuDoc]

As for why more people from UF get into UF than from say, USF, FSU, or UM, I think there are a few factors that come into play. For one, UF produces A LOT more pre-meds than other Florida schools. I can't give you a citation on this, but I've heard it said and I believe it. I was a pre-med at UF, and many of my classes were GIGANTIC, mostly full of pre-meds, and often there were 2 or 3 sections for each class. So just going by statistics alone, more UFers will get in. (In fact, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure more people from UF also get into USF, and I know this is the case for FSU as well. There are just more of us. (I didn't mention Miami b/c I honestly don't know anything about Miami or how many pre-meds it produces.) Also, pre-med courses at UF are pretty rigorous. I know they are everywhere, but the adcom at UF knows first hand just how rigorous it is, partly b/c a few of the courses are taught by med school faculty. Again, I'm not saying microbio is more rigorous at UF than at Miami...I'm just saying that there is a familiarity factor.
As for UF going for Ivy Leaguers...I agree completely. I turned in my app to UF in January...stupid, I know. I attribute the fact that I didn't even get an interview solely to this fact. But when I turned my app in in person, they had a bulletin board on the wall with a picture, name, and school listed for everyone who had been accepted up to that point. I was blown away, and disheartened. There were already upwards of sixty or seventy-five people on the board, and I randomly read where a few of them were from: Hopkins, Yale, Harvard, Yale, Hopkins, Duke, Duke, UF, Brown...they definitely go for IVYs. But honestly, I can't blame them. I think I'm just as qualified and will make just as good a med student as most of the people on that board. And in a way it is a little unfair that a person like you or me might not get in b/c our parents couldn't afford to foot the bill for an Ivy League education. But at the same time, if you put a 3.8 GPA from UF up against a 3.8 GPA from Harvard...most people will say that the Harvard app is more impressive. And it is so hard to differentiate between the top 20% of pre-meds anyway, this may be enought to make the difference.
I agree that for the most part, UFs med student facilities are pretty shabby. And I also agree that this is a legitimate thing to take into account. Facilities matter to me, too. That is, after all, where we will be pretty much living for the next couple of years.
I still maintain that a match list is a terrible way to judge a school. Most students, first of all, wish to remain in the state of Florida, or in another area that they have ties to. Some people choose residency based on "brand name" or whatever, but I would say most do not. Also, I don't care if I ace every test in med school and set a record for highest board scores ever...if I want to be a pediatrician, none of that will matter. I'm not going to open up my board scores and say, wow, I scored really high, now I have to be a dermatologist. Finally, I think the average pre-med is a terrible judge of what is a good residency anyway. Just b/c a school is top notch in terms of med school rankings does not, by any means, indicate that a particular residency program associated with that school is top notch. There are many great residency programs at places that most people have never heard of, and there are many programs at top 15 med school hospitals that are very average. In my mind, all of the schools in Florida are solid, and if you want to match into a competitive residency program, that's on you, not the school.
I will agree with you that there can be an air of snobbiness associated with UF, and I can understand this being a turn-off. I experienced this as an undergrad, even. It is true that some people at UF, including faculty members, students, administration, and alumni, seem to have the impression that UF is Harvard or something. I love UF and think it's an amazing school, but I also think some people there have an inflated opinion of themselves and the school.
Anyway, good luck next year, and wish me luck as I'm still waiting on an acceptance! Stupid late application...

Good post. I agree with all of it. I don't blame a school if they choose to take people from top tier schools. they just want the most competitive applicants. Isn't that what any school wants?

 

[mdgator]

Yea im pretty sure Hopkins and Duke aren't Ivy..

I wasn't at all asserting that Hopkins and Duke are Ivy...if you'll notice, I threw a UF in there, too. I was just making the point that the early acceptances to UF were mostly people from very prestigious schools, which I'm sure you'll agree that Duke and Hopkins ARE. Axlax said UF guns for Ivys. I was conceding that UF does go after grads from the Ivys as well as other prestigious schools.

 

[ILikeToMoveIt]

Hey guys, sorry to disrupt the flow, but does anyone know what financial aid forms are required for UM? I completed the FAFSA but besides that I'm not sure what I need to do. Thanks!

 

[mdgator]

However, with that said, I think a lackluster match class does say something.... Something to keep in mind this could be a one year anomaly, and perhaps next year it will level out better for UF. If that is the case then I am all wrong in my analysis but if it is like this again, and again, and again, then something needs a changing at the great UF.

I still completely do not get how you can imply that UF had anything short of a very solid match...definitely not a lackluster one. I just don't understand. Let me hit what, for me, seem to be the highlights: *note, I am using Miami's numbers from LAST YEAR, since I still haven't seen an official result from this year.

Miami: 10 anesth, 2 derm, 8 rad, 7 gen surg, 9 neuro, 3 neurosurg, 2 ortho, 1 rad onco, 1 uro, 2 optho, 1 ped neuro, 4 EM. These specialties account for 48/123 students. I would say a great match.

USF: 4 anesth, 1 derm, 7 rad, 9 gen surg, 7 neuro, 4 ortho, 3 rad onco, 1 plastics, 1 optho, 1 vasc surg, 15 EM. These account for 53 out of 115 students. Again, very solid.

UF: 6 anesth, 2 derm, 13 rad, 8 gen surg, 2 neuro, 1 neuro surg, 1 ortho, 2 rad onco, 4 uro, 4 optho, 6 EM, 3 oral surg (who did not participate in match); this accounts for 52/108

I don't see ANYTHING wrong with UF's match. If your basing your inference that the match was "lackluster" based on the name of the program rather than the specialty, then I want to know where you get your info regarding which programs are good and which aren't. Which is the better program, gen surg at Univ. of Arkansas in Little Rock, or Mercer in GA? Truthfully, off the top of my head, I have no idea which is better, and I'd bet you don't either. In fact, there's a good chance that both programs are very solid, and the people who matched there chose them based on location/ personal preferences, etc., and not name. Is Vanderbilt a great med school? Absolutely. Is there family med residency program leaps and bound better than family med at some place called Trident in South Carolina? No idea. How good a particular residency program is does not necessarily have a strong correlation with how well known the hospital or the medical school associated with it is.
Bottom line: Students who go to UF and score well on the boards, make good grades, and perform well in the wards will match very well into very good programs. Students who do the same at Miami will have similar success. You CANNOT judge the quality of education you will recieve at a particular school based on match results from one year, even if there is a significant difference from one school to the next. I think most med students and residents will tell you the same.

 

[Team Zissou]

I still completely do not get how you can imply that UF had anything short of a very solid match...definitely not a lackluster one. I just don't understand. Let me hit what, for me, seem to be the highlights: *note, I am using Miami's numbers from LAST YEAR, since I still haven't seen an official result from this year.

Miami: 10 anesth, 2 derm, 8 rad, 7 gen surg, 9 neuro, 3 neurosurg, 2 ortho, 1 rad onco, 1 uro, 2 optho, 1 ped neuro, 4 EM. These specialties account for 48/123 students. I would say a great match.

USF: 4 anesth, 1 derm, 7 rad, 9 gen surg, 7 neuro, 4 ortho, 3 rad onco, 1 plastics, 1 optho, 1 vasc surg, 15 EM. These account for 53 out of 115 students. Again, very solid.

UF: 6 anesth, 2 derm, 13 rad, 8 gen surg, 2 neuro, 1 neuro surg, 1 ortho, 2 rad onco, 4 uro, 4 optho, 6 EM, 3 oral surg (who did not participate in match); this accounts for 52/108

I don't see ANYTHING wrong with UF's match. If your basing your inference that the match was "lackluster" based on the name of the program rather than the specialty, then I want to know where you get your info regarding which programs are good and which aren't. Which is the better program, gen surg at Univ. of Arkansas in Little Rock, or Mercer in GA? Truthfully, off the top of my head, I have no idea which is better, and I'd bet you don't either. In fact, there's a good chance that both programs are very solid, and the people who matched there chose them based on location/ personal preferences, etc., and not name. Is Vanderbilt a great med school? Absolutely. Is there family med residency program leaps and bound better than family med at some place called Trident in South Carolina? No idea. How good a particular residency program is does not necessarily have a strong correlation with how well known the hospital or the medical school associated with it is.
Bottom line: Students who go to UF and score well on the boards, make good grades, and perform well in the wards will match very well into very good programs. Students who do the same at Miami will have similar success. You CANNOT judge the quality of education you will recieve at a particular school based on match results from one year, even if there is a significant difference from one school to the next. I think most med students and residents will tell you the same.

well said mdgator

 

[mdgator]

To add one more point, most people completely overlook the number matched into IM when analyzing match results, because these number don't tell you much. But many of these people will be pursuing very competitive fellowships in cardiology, nephrology, etc. Some of these people are likely among the most competitive students out there.

 

[mikedc813]

I still completely do not get how you can imply that UF had anything short of a very solid match...definitely not a lackluster one. I just don't understand. Let me hit what, for me, seem to be the highlights: *note, I am using Miami's numbers from LAST YEAR, since I still haven't seen an official result from this year.

Miami: 10 anesth, 2 derm, 8 rad, 7 gen surg, 9 neuro, 3 neurosurg, 2 ortho, 1 rad onco, 1 uro, 2 optho, 1 ped neuro, 4 EM. These specialties account for 48/123 students. I would say a great match.

USF: 4 anesth, 1 derm, 7 rad, 9 gen surg, 7 neuro, 4 ortho, 3 rad onco, 1 plastics, 1 optho, 1 vasc surg, 15 EM. These account for 53 out of 115 students. Again, very solid.

UF: 6 anesth, 2 derm, 13 rad, 8 gen surg, 2 neuro, 1 neuro surg, 1 ortho, 2 rad onco, 4 uro, 4 optho, 6 EM, 3 oral surg (who did not participate in match); this accounts for 52/108

I don't see ANYTHING wrong with UF's match. If your basing your inference that the match was "lackluster" based on the name of the program rather than the specialty, then I want to know where you get your info regarding which programs are good and which aren't. Which is the better program, gen surg at Univ. of Arkansas in Little Rock, or Mercer in GA? Truthfully, off the top of my head, I have no idea which is better, and I'd bet you don't either. In fact, there's a good chance that both programs are very solid, and the people who matched there chose them based on location/ personal preferences, etc., and not name. Is Vanderbilt a great med school? Absolutely. Is there family med residency program leaps and bound better than family med at some place called Trident in South Carolina? No idea. How good a particular residency program is does not necessarily have a strong correlation with how well known the hospital or the medical school associated with it is.
Bottom line: Students who go to UF and score well on the boards, make good grades, and perform well in the wards will match very well into very good programs. Students who do the same at Miami will have similar success. You CANNOT judge the quality of education you will recieve at a particular school based on match results from one year, even if there is a significant difference from one school to the next. I think most med students and residents will tell you the same.

Agreed. You would never guess but one of the top ENT programs in the nation is in Oklahoma (where someone from USF matched). Who would have thought?

Match lists, as have been said before, can be extremely misleading about the ability of a school's graduating students. The #1 ranked person at USF is staying at USF for Medicine. The #2 ranked person is going to an EM program in the Midwest that I had never heard of (and I'm guessing you hadn't either). It can be emphasized enough that match lists have limited utility, if any at all, in determining which school is "better".

 

[wally47]

Would anyone out there like some popcorn or sour patch kids? Maybe some reese's M&Ms.

It's good that this discussion is taking place, although it sounds like it's close to becoming a fist fight. I think if you ask most students who attend either UM or UF the last thing they will tell you is to come to their school because they have a better match list. This is for good reason, as many students choose their school based on so many other factors. If I get the luxury of choosing you can bet that the factor with the lowest importance on my excel spreadsheet is Match List Results.

Examining the data, both lists show us that it is possible to get any residency for which the student is competitive. That's really all you can say. So for anyone inquiring, just know that if you go to UF, USF, UM, or FSU and are at the top of your class with great board scores w/ extras you don't have to worry about not getting a great residency.

Echoing the words of everyone I met during my interviews "choose the school that's right for YOU."

 

[deuist]

ugghhh... my stomach is turning from all of the pre-meds listing off "competitive" specialties. Let me give you a quick breakdown:

Competitive (i.e., average STEP I scores range from 230-240, many are published, many are AOA, yet only 75% of applicants match): derm, neuro surgery, ophtho, ortho, otolaryngology (ENT), plastic surgery, rad onc, rads, and urology

Moderately competitive (i.e., almost everyone matches, but the STEP I score needs to be around 220, half are published, a few are in AOA): anesthesiology, emergency medicine, ob/gyn, path, general surgery

Not competitive (i.e., sign your name and you're in): family med, internal med, neurology, peds, physical medicine, psych


Among fellowships for internal medicine, GI and cardiology are the hardest. Nephrology is relatively easy. Here in South Florida, in fact, we have so many nephrologists that many of them are forced to practice as general internists in addition to serving kidney disease.

 

[Tertbutyl]

Thanks for clearing all of that up. I admittedly was confused as to what was truly competitive/relatively easier.

Figures all the things I'm interested in are listed in the competitive section. I'm sure that will change though.

 

[axlaxl1]

I don't see ANYTHING wrong with UF's match. If your basing your inference that the match was "lackluster" based on the name of the program rather than the specialty, then I want to know where you get your info regarding which programs are good and which aren't. Which is the better program, gen surg at Univ. of Arkansas in Little Rock, or Mercer in GA? Truthfully, off the top of my head, I have no idea which is better, and I'd bet you don't either. In fact, there's a good chance that both programs are very solid, and the people who matched there chose them based on location/ personal preferences, etc., and not name. Is Vanderbilt a great med school? Absolutely. Is there family med residency program leaps and bound better than family med at some place called Trident in South Carolina? No idea. How good a particular residency program is does not necessarily have a strong correlation with how well known the hospital or the medical school associated with it is.
Bottom line: Students who go to UF and score well on the boards, make good grades, and perform well in the wards will match very well into very good programs. Students who do the same at Miami will have similar success. You CANNOT judge the quality of education you will recieve at a particular school based on match results from one year, even if there is a significant difference from one school to the next. I think most med students and residents will tell you the same.

It is funny because for the most part I am agreeing with what you are saying. However, I think what people who have criticized UF's match list and what I am saying is this. UF holds itself to this high standard of who they choose to let in the school. I think everyone on here agrees that UF guns for IVY, top tier schools, its own, and UCF (LOL Its a compliment T ans S). Yes, I absolutely agree that schools want top students but it was already stated to me that UM will actually increase their average MCAT score to 32, up a point from the previous year, based on the incoming recruits. Again, there is more than one way to obtain talent. UF IMO does it in an eccentric way that might be looked at by some people as pompous.

Why I am arguing the match list for is simple. As a school wants to obtain talent their matching results will matter. People could be looking at these results right now and thinking to themselves, "wow I am going to UM because I will have a better shot at a residency like such and such." Will it have a detrimental effect in the short term? No. In the long term? Perhaps, especially with the presence of two new medical schools and virtually three if you include Boca.

I throw in this analogy. Who thought that USF would be ranked higher than UF ever? I mean Miami (yes), FSU (yes), USF (HECK NO.) But, it happened and it spells trouble for the other big schools. Heck, FAU was the only school in Florida that won a bowl game this year. What does that do to the talent? Spreads it out and makes schools that weren't so "competitive" before into great competitors in the future.

I apologize, but the match does say something to me about were UF is heading. My comment of lackluster is only that because I believe UF is still held to a higher standard. So anything less than stellar for UF is lackluster, hence the term lacking luster, and not horrible or disgraceful or pitiful. Of course it is great and of course we don't know the makeup of the students choices but if it happens more often in the future we can safely say UF needs to reevaluate it's practices of choosing medical students. Again, choosing UF students to me is awesome I will never complain about that. UCF is even IVY league so I am ok with that too. But to put other Florida schools off the map like we ain't good enough, sorry I still have sour grapes in my mouth.

Do I know UF is an amazing school? YES! Will I still go there if accepted? No, I am happy with UM and very thankful for my acceptance. Would UF be a super close second? YES, absolutely. So please, I hope nobody is taking this to heart.

 

[SwampGator]

It is funny because for the most part I am agreeing with what you are saying. However, I think what people who have criticized UF's match list and what I am saying is this. UF holds itself to this high standard of who they choose to let in the school. I think everyone on here agrees that UF guns for IVY, top tier schools, its own, and UCF (LOL Its a compliment T ans S). Yes, I absolutely agree that schools want top students but it was already stated to me that UM will actually increase their average MCAT score to 32, up a point from the previous year, based on the incoming recruits. Again, there is more than one way to obtain talent. UF IMO does it in an eccentric way that might be looked at by some people as pompous.

Why I am arguing the match list for is simple. As a school wants to obtain talent their matching results will matter. People could be looking at these results right now and thinking to themselves, "wow I am going to UM because I will have a better shot at a residency like such and such." Will it have a detrimental effect in the short term? No. In the long term? Perhaps, especially with the presence of two new medical schools and virtually three if you include Boca.

I throw in this analogy. Who thought that USF would be ranked higher than UF ever? I mean Miami (yes), FSU (yes), USF (HECK NO.) But, it happened and it spells trouble for the other big schools. Heck, FAU was the only school in Florida that won a bowl game this year. What does that do to the talent? Spreads it out and makes schools that weren't so "competitive" before into great competitors in the future.

I apologize, but the match does say something to me about were UF is heading. My comment of lackluster is only that because I believe UF is still held to a higher standard. So anything less than stellar for UF is lackluster, hence the term lacking luster, and not horrible or disgraceful or pitiful. Of course it is great and of course we don't know the makeup of the students choices but if it happens more often in the future we can safely say UF needs to reevaluate it's practices of choosing medical students. Again, choosing UF students to me is awesome I will never complain about that. UCF is even IVY league so I am ok with that too. But to put other Florida schools off the map like we ain't good enough, sorry I still have sour grapes in my mouth.

Do I know UF is an amazing school? YES! Will I still go there if accepted? No, I am happy with UM and very thankful for my acceptance. Would UF be a super close second? YES, absolutely. So please, I hope nobody is taking this to heart.

Well, some of us could see that that wasn't going to last.

 

[mdgator]

First of all, don't worry, I'm not taking anything personally and I know you aren't either.

But you still haven't given me any evidence that UF'ss match list was "lackluster" by your own definition or any other. To illustrate, let me briefly compare the match list I was given at Duke, to UF's current list. (First column = Duke, second = UF

anesth: 5 -- 6
EM: 4 -- 6
surg: 5 -- 8
neuro surg 2 -- 1
neuro 1 -- 2
optho 7 -- 4
ortho 6 -- 1
rad onc 3 -- 2
rad 5 -- 13
uro 2 -- 4
derm 0 -- 2
plastics 1 -- 0

If you go by competitiveness of specialty, Duke matched 41 students into "competitive specialties", while UF matched 49. (I'm not sure how competitve oral surgery is, so I left it out.) Am I saying that UF's match list is better than Duke's? Absolutely not. I'm trying to demonstrate that you have to be a lot more knowledgeable about the match than 99% of pre-meds, including myself, to do any in-depth analysis regarding which of two schools had a better match. Period. As I said earlier, if you're going to judge by name recognition, you'd better do some serious research first, b/c name recognition when it comes to residencies is not NEARLY as reliable an indicator of quality as some may think.

 

[mdgator]

ugghhh... my stomach is turning from all of the pre-meds listing off "competitive" specialties. Let me give you a quick breakdown:

Competitive (i.e., average STEP I scores range from 230-240, many are published, many are AOA, yet only 75% of applicants match): derm, neuro surgery, ophtho, ortho, otolaryngology (ENT), plastic surgery, rad onc, rads, and urology

Moderately competitive (i.e., almost everyone matches, but the STEP I score needs to be around 220, half are published, a few are in AOA): anesthesiology, emergency medicine, ob/gyn, path, general surgery

Not competitive (i.e., sign your name and you're in): family med, internal med, neurology, peds, physical medicine, psych


Among fellowships for internal medicine, GI and cardiology are the hardest. Nephrology is relatively easy. Here in South Florida, in fact, we have so many nephrologists that many of them are forced to practice as general internists in addition to serving kidney disease.

Your post seemed to reference mine in particular. According to usmletomd.com, nephrology is a relatively competitive fellowship along with critical care/pulomology and endocrinology. As you said, not as competitive as gastro, but moreso than infectious disease, rheumatology, geriatrics, and some other IM subspecialties. The specialties you defined as moderately competitive to competitive almost exactly matched my list, except I included neuro, vascular surgery, and radiology, and left off ENT. If neuro is non-competitive, ma-bad. Hope my pre-med naivete didn't upset your stomach too much. peace

 

[axlaxl1]

First of all, don't worry, I'm not taking anything personally and I know you aren't either.

But you still haven't given me any evidence that UF'ss match list was "lackluster" by your own definition or any other. To illustrate, let me briefly compare the match list I was given at Duke, to UF's current list. (First column = Duke, second = UF

anesth: 5 -- 6
EM: 4 -- 6
surg: 5 -- 8
neuro surg 2 -- 1
neuro 1 -- 2
optho 7 -- 4
ortho 6 -- 1
rad onc 3 -- 2
rad 5 -- 13
uro 2 -- 4
derm 0 -- 2
plastics 1 -- 0

If you go by competitiveness of specialty, Duke matched 41 students into "competitive specialties", while UF matched 49. (I'm not sure how competitve oral surgery is, so I left it out.) Am I saying that UF's match list is better than Duke's? Absolutely not. I'm trying to demonstrate that you have to be a lot more knowledgeable about the match than 99% of pre-meds, including myself, to do any in-depth analysis regarding which of two schools had a better match. Period. As I said earlier, if you're going to judge by name recognition, you'd better do some serious research first, b/c name recognition when it comes to residencies is not NEARLY as reliable an indicator of quality as some may think.

Duke's is really lackluster, especially their houty touty butt's. 35 avg MCAT hmmmmm. LOL, JK! Point taken.

But, U.M. must be SUPERB. How about that argument.

 

[mdgator]

Duke's is really lackluster, especially their houty touty butt's. 35 avg MCAT hmmmmm. LOL, JK! Point taken.

But, U.M. must be SUPERB. How about that argument.

Haha! I honestly don't know. I still haven't seen UM's list. (If you have it, please do share.) It must be pretty spectacular, because I'm hearing a lot of good things. I didn't apply to UM b/c I'm not much of a city person and it's really far away from home, for a state school, and some other factors. But if my late application comes back to bite my rear and I have to apply again, I think that UM will be one of my top 3 or 4 choices. As the application cycle has progressed, there have been a few schools that I've learned more about and I've really regretted not applying. UM is one of them.

 

[BrainBuff]

There is some truth to the fact that the outcome of the match is seen by a lot of people as how successful the school was in placing the students in high ranked or prestigious programs and/or competitive specialties. Top tier universities are full of students coming from top high schools and top tier medical schools are full of students that graduated from top tier universities. Why would residency programs be any different for the most part? Of course these are not absolutes, but certainly a general pattern.

It would not be unusual for UF to accept all the ivy leaguers it can, hoping that they choose to attend. However, the fact is that they don't choose to attend, hence the 80% of freshmen from UF that end up being part of the class, which someone was bringing up earlier.

There something about a "brand name" and the ivy league has that, whether undergrad, med school or residency and irrelevant from the true quality of the program. I still remember a classmate of mine that wanted to go to med school at Princeton..(true story, btw)

 

[BrainBuff]

I would also like to add that unfortunately UF suffers from a pathetically inflated ego. This reflected in their neurology match results. It was one of the few programs in Neurology that had unfilled positions. For Neurology, that's pretty bad. It shows that they ended up not ranking certain students at all because they thought they were going to fill with their top choices. Someone was comparing them earlier to "lackluster" results from Duke. Well, the same thing happened to them (they only filled 1 of 5 positions). Duke behaves just as bad, btw

 

[REL]

...but necessary talk all the same. You are fortunate to have several solid MD programs in Florida. Lots of discussion about match lists which several have pointed out have to do with very little --- certainly not a factor for choosing a medical school for the premed group. As already pointed out residencies are a factor of two things: 1) what you want to do (subfactor - what you have seen/done), and 2) faculty connections to get you into that program. Thankfully the 3 long-established MD programs in the state are all great at getting you experiences in medical school and have clinical faculty from everywhere.

Ivy League - I am translating to mean: really meaning very good undergrad programs. Again, I have first-hand experience that shows that USF, UM, and UF have Med I's every year from the Harvard's, Duke's, Stanford's, UCLA's, etc. I did a 3 year comparison of USF, UM, and UF as to where their entering students went to UG school and I can share that once I get back to the office (I am currently on the road). You will be suprised in come cases, but the reality is that these 3 MD programs have a solid numbers of students from these programs.

UF premed production - I dont currently have access to the "applicant" numbers, but UF does the best job of undergrad BS/BA production for medical school based on numbers eligible for entry. The follow shows "matriculant" numbers from Florida schools over a recent 3 year period (these numbers are about 2 years old) -- usually about half of the applicants from a Florida school matriculate so you can generally double the matriculant numbers to guesstimate the applicant pool from that school. Of note the "applicant" MCAT, BPCM, and GPA averages will be less than those averages presented below simply because they are the averages of ALL applicants, presented below are the averages for matriculants.
- UF - 532, 29.4 MCAT, 3.6 BPCM, 3.7 GPA
- UM - 271, 27.9 MCAT, 3.7 BPCM, 3.7 GPA
- USF - 125, 28.8 MCAT, 3.6 BPCM, 3.7 GPA
- FSU - 89 - 28.4 MCAT, 3.5 BPCM, 3.6 GPA
- UCF - 51 - 27.8 MCAT, 3.6 BPCM, 3.6 GPA
- FAMU - 49 - 24.0 MCAT, 3.4 BPCM, 3.5 GPA
- FIU - 47 - 27.0 MCAT, 3.4 BPCM, 3.5 GPA

The remainder of the Florida undergrad institutions put less than 40 students into MD programs over the same 3 year period.

 

[UFMed]

It is funny because for the most part I am agreeing with what you are saying. However, I think what people who have criticized UF's match list and what I am saying is this. UF holds itself to this high standard of who they choose to let in the school. I think everyone on here agrees that UF guns for IVY, top tier schools, its own, and UCF (LOL Its a compliment T ans S). Yes, I absolutely agree that schools want top students but it was already stated to me that UM will actually increase their average MCAT score to 32, up a point from the previous year, based on the incoming recruits. Again, there is more than one way to obtain talent. UF IMO does it in an eccentric way that might be looked at by some people as pompous.

Why I am arguing the match list for is simple. As a school wants to obtain talent their matching results will matter. People could be looking at these results right now and thinking to themselves, "wow I am going to UM because I will have a better shot at a residency like such and such." Will it have a detrimental effect in the short term? No. In the long term? Perhaps, especially with the presence of two new medical schools and virtually three if you include Boca.

I throw in this analogy. Who thought that USF would be ranked higher than UF ever? I mean Miami (yes), FSU (yes), USF (HECK NO.) But, it happened and it spells trouble for the other big schools. Heck, FAU was the only school in Florida that won a bowl game this year. What does that do to the talent? Spreads it out and makes schools that weren't so "competitive" before into great competitors in the future.

I apologize, but the match does say something to me about were UF is heading. My comment of lackluster is only that because I believe UF is still held to a higher standard. So anything less than stellar for UF is lackluster, hence the term lacking luster, and not horrible or disgraceful or pitiful. Of course it is great and of course we don't know the makeup of the students choices but if it happens more often in the future we can safely say UF needs to reevaluate it's practices of choosing medical students. Again, choosing UF students to me is awesome I will never complain about that. UCF is even IVY league so I am ok with that too. But to put other Florida schools off the map like we ain't good enough, sorry I still have sour grapes in my mouth.

Do I know UF is an amazing school? YES! Will I still go there if accepted? No, I am happy with UM and very thankful for my acceptance. Would UF be a super close second? YES, absolutely. So please, I hope nobody is taking this to heart.

UF shouldn't be penalized because they deem certain applicants more competitive than others- as an institution this is their right. It's not as if USF selects less competitive applicants for the sake of not seeming snobby to disgruntled premeds. All institutions shoot for high-caliber applicants, and whether they be from MIT, JHU or wherever, we simply can't pull the snob card because these applicants have stellar applications. It's the nature of the beast. I went to a cheap state school in Florida, but I don't hold animosity against FL kids who chose to go to Harvard or Yale. "Ivy" students aren't always snobby and rich either. I could make the same argument for students at UMiami: UMiami is far more expensive than FSU, UF or USF (and soon UCF and FIU); I don't want to go there because I don't like those " snobby rich kids who can actually afford UM" lol! (jk)
Of course UMiami can afford to put a fancy gym on top of a high rise building overlooking downtown Miami 🙄 (it charges more for the same education taught somewhere else).
Then again, UF does have good facilities (and they're building a new COM and research center across the street as it is)- but you have to look at it in the context of the entire university. UF (like FSU, USF) is nestled on its main college campus- where the med students are not isolated from the rest of the university. I don't have to take the monorail, or walk over homeless people, to make it back to my campus and use the libraries, student union or gym. I say you should start being more accepting of these "rich, snobby, Ivy" kids- you're probably going to meet alot of them at UM in the fall.

 

[UFMed]

...but necessary talk all the same. You are fortunate to have several solid MD programs in Florida. Lots of discussion about match lists which several have pointed out have to do with very little --- certainly not a factor for choosing a medical school for the premed group. As already pointed out residencies are a factor of two things: 1) what you want to do (subfactor - what you have seen/done), and 2) faculty connections to get you into that program. Thankfully the 3 long-established MD programs in the state are all great at getting you experiences in medical school and have clinical faculty from everywhere.

Ivy League - I am translating to mean: really meaning very good undergrad programs. Again, I have first-hand experience that shows that USF, UM, and UF have Med I's every year from the Harvard's, Duke's, Stanford's, UCLA's, etc. I did a 3 year comparison of USF, UM, and UF as to where their entering students went to UG school and I can share that once I get back to the office (I am currently on the road). You will be suprised in come cases, but the reality is that these 3 MD programs have a solid numbers of students from these programs.

UF premed production - I dont currently have access to the "applicant" numbers, but UF does the best job of undergrad BS/BA production for medical school based on numbers eligible for entry. The follow shows "matriculant" numbers from Florida schools over a recent 3 year period (these numbers are about 2 years old) -- usually about half of the applicants from a Florida school matriculate so you can generally double the matriculant numbers to guesstimate the applicant pool from that school. Of note the "applicant" MCAT, BPCM, and GPA averages will be less than those averages presented below simply because they are the averages of ALL applicants, presented below are the averages for matriculants.
- UF - 532, 29.4 MCAT, 3.6 BPCM, 3.7 GPA
- UM - 271, 27.9 MCAT, 3.7 BPCM, 3.7 GPA
- USF - 125, 28.8 MCAT, 3.6 BPCM, 3.7 GPA
- FSU - 89 - 28.4 MCAT, 3.5 BPCM, 3.6 GPA
- UCF - 51 - 27.8 MCAT, 3.6 BPCM, 3.6 GPA
- FAMU - 49 - 24.0 MCAT, 3.4 BPCM, 3.5 GPA
- FIU - 47 - 27.0 MCAT, 3.4 BPCM, 3.5 GPA

The remainder of the Florida undergrad institutions put less than 40 students into MD programs over the same 3 year period.

Very interesting! Thanks REL!

 

[deuist]

UM has still not posted its match list online yet. I managed to get my hands on an internal PDF with the results. Keep in mind that UM will have more matches into competitive specialties by virtue of having the largest medical school in the state. The numbers I present for UM might be slightly different what gets posted to the website due to the way I counted military students.

.....................................FSU.....UF.....USF.....UM
Anesthesiology...................2........6....... 4.......19
Dermatology......................1........2........1.......5
Emergency Medicine............4........6......15.......12
Family Medicine.................10........7........6.......5
Internal Medicine...............11.......14.....25.......36
Med/Peds.........................0........2........0.......1
Neurological Surgery...........0........1........0.......0
Neurology.........................0........2........7.......4
Obstetrics & Gynecology.....11.......7........4.......8
Ophthalmology...................1........4........1.......9
Orthopaedic Surgery...........3........1........4.......3
Otolaryngology..................0........1........1.......4
Pathology.........................1........2........3.......2
Pediatrics.........................4........17.....15.......10
Physical Medicine...............0........1........2.......0
Plastic Surgery..................1........0........1.......1
Psychiatry........................3........5........6.......6
Radiation Oncology............0........2........3.......1
Radiology-Diagnostic..........2........13......7.......7
Surgery, General...............3........8........9.......15
Urology...........................0........4.........0.......3
Vascular Surgery...............0........0........1.......0

 

[chudog15]

and how did you get your hands on such an internal memo?

 

[deuist]

It's available for the students here. Since it has everyone's name on it, I'm not going to post it to SDN.

 

[timurx]

Hey all...since everyone was wondering...i saw that UM finally put up a copy of their match list for this year...here is it:

http://www.mededu.miami.edu/match2008/residency_search/MATCH RESULTS CLASS OF 2008.pdf

 

[shawn128]

So much for USF 🙁 I got middle tier waitlisted.

I understand that there may still be a small chance for me to get in (if at all) but...I just don't want to get my hopes up.

I've been giving heavy consideration to USF COM's MS in Medical Sciences. Does anyone have any advice? They've already told me that the only problem with my app was numbers.

 

[axlaxl1]

...but necessary talk all the same. You are fortunate to have several solid MD programs in Florida. Lots of discussion about match lists which several have pointed out have to do with very little --- certainly not a factor for choosing a medical school for the premed group. As already pointed out residencies are a factor of two things: 1) what you want to do (subfactor - what you have seen/done), and 2) faculty connections to get you into that program. Thankfully the 3 long-established MD programs in the state are all great at getting you experiences in medical school and have clinical faculty from everywhere.

Ivy League - I am translating to mean: really meaning very good undergrad programs. Again, I have first-hand experience that shows that USF, UM, and UF have Med I's every year from the Harvard's, Duke's, Stanford's, UCLA's, etc. I did a 3 year comparison of USF, UM, and UF as to where their entering students went to UG school and I can share that once I get back to the office (I am currently on the road). You will be suprised in come cases, but the reality is that these 3 MD programs have a solid numbers of students from these programs.

UF premed production - I dont currently have access to the "applicant" numbers, but UF does the best job of undergrad BS/BA production for medical school based on numbers eligible for entry. The follow shows "matriculant" numbers from Florida schools over a recent 3 year period (these numbers are about 2 years old) -- usually about half of the applicants from a Florida school matriculate so you can generally double the matriculant numbers to guesstimate the applicant pool from that school. Of note the "applicant" MCAT, BPCM, and GPA averages will be less than those averages presented below simply because they are the averages of ALL applicants, presented below are the averages for matriculants.
- UF - 532, 29.4 MCAT, 3.6 BPCM, 3.7 GPA
- UM - 271, 27.9 MCAT, 3.7 BPCM, 3.7 GPA
- USF - 125, 28.8 MCAT, 3.6 BPCM, 3.7 GPA
- FSU - 89 - 28.4 MCAT, 3.5 BPCM, 3.6 GPA
- UCF - 51 - 27.8 MCAT, 3.6 BPCM, 3.6 GPA
- FAMU - 49 - 24.0 MCAT, 3.4 BPCM, 3.5 GPA
- FIU - 47 - 27.0 MCAT, 3.4 BPCM, 3.5 GPA

The remainder of the Florida undergrad institutions put less than 40 students into MD programs over the same 3 year period.

Wow, I have to give mad congrats to UF because this is an excellent job. One thing to notice is that the percentages are actually different because the schools are vastly different sizes in pre-med students. With that said, UF has the most pre-med students in their bio program in the state. Nevertheless producing 177 medical students per year is amazing.

My school should be embarrassed. 😳 .

REL what do you think is the biggest contributor to this? If you look at the numbers you can pretty much go right down the line and see the schools with an established medical school program have the largest numbers. I do believe UM by percentage is closer to UF than it seems, perhaps the same can be said for USF. So, obviously having a medical school has an effect on students entering into the schools specifically for a pre-med program.

Now, as a TA I can say I sometimes am ashamed at certain students claiming their pre-med status. They don't even try. I am baffled by this. How can UF and UM pump out so many medical students and the rest of Florida schools have such low numbers? Do you see better programs from UF and UM and USF? Can other schools do more to help their students achieve their goal?

 

[wally47]

If you look at the number of undergrads Miami does churn out a greater total percentage of premeds. But I think you nailed it head axl... it is because the schools have their own medical school. What this says for the future, Watch out for UCF! But now that FAU, FIU, FSU, and UCF will/have established medical schools on campus their premed numbers will likely increase.

undergrads
UF -34,500
FSU-32,500
UM-10,300
USF-34,000
FAU-20,500
FIU-30,000
UCF-41,000

 

[gujuDoc]

If you look at the number of undergrads Miami does churn out a greater total percentage of premeds. But I think you nailed it head axl... it is because the schools have their own medical school. What this says for the future, Watch out for UCF! But now that FAU, FIU, FSU, and UCF will/have established medical schools on campus their premed numbers will likely increase.

undergrads
UF -34,500
FSU-32,500
UM-10,300
USF-34,000
FAU-20,500
FIU-30,000
UCF-41,000

Of all schools I think UCF's number will increase because there are a lot of opportunities in orlando and with the med school there it will be increased ever so much. Not to mention the fact that I've heard great things about the quality of their undergrad classes by comparison to other schools. Heck, they let their students take gross anatomy and are one of the few places to offer histo every year for undergrads.

 

[gujuDoc]

Wow, I have to give mad congrats to UF because this is an excellent job. One thing to notice is that the percentages are actually different because the schools are vastly different sizes in pre-med students. With that said, UF has the most pre-med students in their bio program in the state. Nevertheless producing 177 medical students per year is amazing.

My school should be embraced. 😳 .

REL what do you think is the biggest contributor to this? If you look at the numbers you can pretty much go right down the line and see the schools with an established medical school program have the largest numbers. I do believe UM by percentage is closer to UF than it seems, perhaps the same can be said for USF. So, obviously having a medical school has an effect on students entering into the schools specifically for a pre-med program.

Now, as a TA I can say I sometimes am ashamed at certain students claiming their pre-med status. They don't even try. I am baffled by this. How can UF and UM pump out so many medical students and the rest of Florida schools have such low numbers? Do you see better programs from UF and UM and USF? Can other schools do more to help their students achieve their goal?

I don't think it has to do with more numbers. People know that UMiami and UF have some of the top notch education so the smartest students go there. Furthermore, these places also have the best opportunities and some of the best quality professors and education compared to places like USF. I think UCF should be up there though in the future as more people discover how good UCF is and as its medical school shoots forward.

 

[gujuDoc]

Wow, I have to give mad congrats to UF because this is an excellent job. One thing to notice is that the percentages are actually different because the schools are vastly different sizes in pre-med students. With that said, UF has the most pre-med students in their bio program in the state. Nevertheless producing 177 medical students per year is amazing.

My school should be embraced. 😳 .

REL what do you think is the biggest contributor to this? If you look at the numbers you can pretty much go right down the line and see the schools with an established medical school program have the largest numbers. I do believe UM by percentage is closer to UF than it seems, perhaps the same can be said for USF. So, obviously having a medical school has an effect on students entering into the schools specifically for a pre-med program.

Now, as a TA I can say I sometimes am ashamed at certain students claiming their pre-med status. They don't even try. I am baffled by this. How can UF and UM pump out so many medical students and the rest of Florida schools have such low numbers? Do you see better programs from UF and UM and USF? Can other schools do more to help their students achieve their goal?

One more thing, UF and UMiami have better premed programs, better quality of instruction, a lot of the smarter higher SAT/ACT scoring students go there because of the brand name, and it has better opportunities in terms of things like student organizations, volunteer opportunities, etc. Like you said you are a TA. Well there's maybe one or 2 classes at most USF would allow students to TA unless they were grad student.

These are probably the reasons you see better candidates from there.

Oh and overall I heard UF has about 48,000 students not 34,000. I've also heard that USF with all 4 campuses has about 42,000 students.

 

[gujuDoc]

It's available for the students here. Since it has everyone's name on it, I'm not going to post it to SDN.

You realize the link below this post I've quoted has all the names too so that was pointless since Miami and USF both don't give a care to blockout names from the public match list records on their websites right???

UF is the only school I know that doesn't make public the people's names that are attached to the residency positions. Although they did in 2005. Just not since then.

 

[axlaxl1]

One more thing, UF and UMiami have better premed programs, better quality of instruction, a lot of the smarter higher SAT/ACT scoring students go there because of the brand name, and it has better opportunities in terms of things like student organizations, volunteer opportunities, etc. Like you said you are a TA. Well there's maybe one or 2 classes at most USF would allow students to TA unless they were grad student.

These are probably the reasons you see better candidates from there.

Oh and overall I heard UF has about 48,000 students not 34,000. I've also heard that USF with all 4 campuses has about 42,000 students.

gujuDoc, you ready for this? For the first time I have to disagree with a lot of what you are saying; but I still love ya 🙂 Are the pre-med programs better? I am ok with that charge but can you site why they are better? An undergrad being a T.A. is certainly not a reason why a school is better. In fact, I will blow any grad student out of the water with my TA experience and knowledge of the subject material. I mean, I don't get your thing with undergrads being T.A.'s? I mean, a lot of grad students are master students waiting to get into med school some way or another because they weren't competitive enough in the first place. I rather have a top student helping my students out then some stressed master and or PhD student who really doesn't want to be teaching in the first place. So, I have to disagree with the TA comment.

A lot of smarter students with better SAT/ACT scores make for a better pre-med program. Unfortunately, GuJu I have to agree with you. The unfortunate part is, it is sad. But, I am confused a little, what are the requirements to be a biology major? Don't all bio programs require a pretty high SAT?

That leaves quality of instruction. I believe the quality of instruction is fine but rather the quality of advising that is an issue. But I just wanted a more detailed answer to why this might be an issue rather than "we are better" and that is why answer. Not that you gave that but I would want my school to become better without a miracle or perhaps it just needs one anyway.


🙁 still depressed after our poor showing in the pre-med battles.

 

[ufgrad00]

....

 

[ufgrad00]

All right. I have to give my two cents.

UF is NOT a good pre-med program. It is the thunderdome. It is not supportive to its students. We had the luck of the draw as far as decent professsors went, some classes were taught well and were graded based on regular grading scales (A>90, B+>87, B>80, etc.) or some version thereof. Other professors would say in the very beginning of class that he would not award any A's and the curves would be brutal. Unless you were a heartless robot.

Most of all my professors hated pre-meds, so it was a pain to find some that would write a supportive letter of rec. During my last spring semester, I found out from students who were not accepted anywhere based on their letters which were unsupportive, that both of the professors I had asked originally were the authors of bad letters. And these were people were even the TA's for the class and the professors still gave bum letters. As you can tell, I asked other professors to write them for me, and they did not teach regular pre-med type courses like the first two professors. Instead they taught ecology/botany type of courses.

Anyways, I got to go, but I can go on about how unbelievably competitive the students in the classes were, or how discouraging it is to hear that a third of the will get a D or lower based on the class grading curve. Anyone here who has taken the physics lab at UF, knows how frustrating it is to work hard make a 95 average and still come out with a B.

I'll stop ranting, but UF is not a supportive educational environment. They could care less about you or your goals, so long as you continue to pay tuition.

 

[wally47]

One more thing, UF and UMiami have better premed programs, better quality of instruction, a lot of the smarter higher SAT/ACT scoring students go there because of the brand name, and it has better opportunities in terms of things like student organizations, volunteer opportunities, etc. Like you said you are a TA. Well there's maybe one or 2 classes at most USF would allow students to TA unless they were grad student.

These are probably the reasons you see better candidates from there.

Oh and overall I heard UF has about 48,000 students not 34,000. I've also heard that USF with all 4 campuses has about 42,000 students.

Maybe you should update wikipedia then.😎

 

[Tertbutyl]

Most premeds are undergrads. I think those numbers were representative of # of undergrads versus total number of students at the universities.

 

[mdgator]

All right. I have to give my two cents.

UF is NOT a good pre-med program. It is the thunderdome. It is not supportive to its students. We had the luck of the draw as far as decent professsors went, some classes were taught well and were graded based on regular grading scales (A>90, B+>87, B>80, etc.) or some version thereof. Other professors would say in the very beginning of class that he would not award any A's and the curves would be brutal. Unless you were a heartless robot.

Most of all my professors hated pre-meds, so it was a pain to find some that would write a supportive letter of rec. During my last spring semester, I found out from students who were not accepted anywhere based on their letters which were unsupportive, that both of the professors I had asked originally were the authors of bad letters. And these were people were even the TA's for the class and the professors still gave bum letters. As you can tell, I asked other professors to write them for me, and they did not teach regular pre-med type courses like the first two professors. Instead they taught ecology/botany type of courses.

Anyways, I got to go, but I can go on about how unbelievably competitive the students in the classes were, or how discouraging it is to hear that a third of the will get a D or lower based on the class grading curve. Anyone here who has taken the physics lab at UF, knows how frustrating it is to work hard make a 95 average and still come out with a B.

I'll stop ranting, but UF is not a supportive educational environment. They could care less about you or your goals, so long as you continue to pay tuition.

I partly agree, and partly disagree with this post based on my own experiences. Overall, I think UF's pre-med program is top-notch. There are some truly great profs, and if you do well in UF's program, I think it opens many doors for you. Every grad/professional school in the state and many throughout the country hold UF's microbiology and other pre-med-type programs in very high regard. I think it also allows unlimited access to research and many other opportunities. (I'm speaking mostly for UF's microbio program, which is the most popular route for pre-meds.) I think it's set up so that the highly intelligent, hard-working, self-starter type students that stand a good chance of getting into med school in the first place will thrive. But, because it's a pretty rigorous program, many others will not.

I agree that some classes are well-taught, while some others are not. My microbiology class was terribly taught! Worst prof I ever had. I also agree that UF is not as supportive of its students as it could be. They kind of have the attitude that they will give you the opportunity to excel on your own, but no one is going to go out of their way to help you. If you get it, you get it...you don't, you don't. Also, in my experience, our pre-health advisor was AWFUL! He gave me the worst advice imaginable on some issues. Luckily, I found a microbio advisor who was very helpful. Finally, I understand how people may complain about the unnecessary difficulty of some classes. I think there are classes at UF, some pre-med and some not, that are much more difficult than they're supposed to be. I remember having those feelings of anxiety when the prof stood up in front of the class on the first day and promised that half the class would drop, half of those remaining would fail, and no more than 5% would make an A.

I think that there are improvements that could be made at UF; I think most of these problems arise from the shear size of the program/school. But overall, I think I got a superb education at UF, and I'm proud to have gone there.

 

[gujuDoc]

gujuDoc, you ready for this? For the first time I have to disagree with a lot of what you are saying; but I still love ya 🙂 Are the pre-med programs better? I am ok with that charge but can you site why they are better? An undergrad being a T.A. is certainly not a reason why a school is better. In fact, I will blow any grad student out of the water with my TA experience and knowledge of the subject material. I mean, I don't get your thing with undergrads being T.A.'s? I mean, a lot of grad students are master students waiting to get into med school some way or another because they weren't competitive enough in the first place. I rather have a top student helping my students out then some stressed master and or PhD student who really doesn't want to be teaching in the first place. So, I have to disagree with the TA comment.

A lot of smarter students with better SAT/ACT scores make for a better pre-med program. Unfortunately, GuJu I have to agree with you. The unfortunate part is, it is sad. But, I am confused a little, what are the requirements to be a biology major? Don't all bio programs require a pretty high SAT?

That leaves quality of instruction. I believe the quality of instruction is fine but rather the quality of advising that is an issue. But I just wanted a more detailed answer to why this might be an issue rather than "we are better" and that is why answer. Not that you gave that but I would want my school to become better without a miracle or perhaps it just needs one anyway.


🙁 still depressed after our poor showing in the pre-med battles.

You missed my point!!! I wasn't saying you were worse because you were an undergrad TA. I was showing the point with the TA thing that you have the opportunity to learn by teaching. We are not allowed to have opportunities like. Another example of what i was saying is that you have better premed organizations that are more organized with more volunteering, shadowing, and other opportunities, you have students who are competitive by more numerically and nonnumerically. The TAing opportunity is just an example of one of those numerous nonnumerical opportunities USF students don't have a chance to get involved in except for one case.

UFgrad, you may disagree with me but your courses may be tougher but your students come out coming prepared beyond belief for things like the MCAT because you get through the material. Half way through this thread we had this discussion when we were talking about premed courses. UF has far greater quality of instruction in comparison to USF. Students do have higher standardized scores as well. When you compare that to USF you have a spell for higher chances of getting better MCAT scores and with a good GPA stronger chance of acceptance from the numerical standpoint. Non-numerically your students have some of the strongest ECs compared to the average USF premed.

You wouldn't believe the number of people who are failing the MCAT here and end up going to the islands because they couldn't even get a 20. then there's another large subset who can't get past 23 or 24-26 rage and end up in DO schools. When you compare the numbers there are far less number of people getting decent MCAT scores.

 

[lettingo]

I have to agree that the pre-med program at UF is awful. I was basically told by my advisers (those in CLAS... you know the ones) that I had no shot of getting in to med school. Since then, I have interviewed at competitive programs (Northwestern, UNC, Duke, etc.) and have been accepted at several schools. Those advisers really have no clue. By the way, I got interviews at these schools but was rejected post-secondary by UF! Oh well.

Anyhow, as far as I know, UF undergrads generally aren't allowed to TA classes. And those pre-med organizations are just black holes - I didn't join any of them. I've done pretty well in the process without them.

There are a lot of gunner types at UF. I mean, how many of my fellow UF undergrads weren't at the very top of their high school class? UF has a great reputation and the our recent success in athletics has only made it an even more desirable school. That being said, I wish I had gone elsewhere. The culture got a little depressing after a while. Survival of the fittest at its finest.

 

[mdgator]

I have to agree that the pre-med program at UF is awful. I was basically told by my advisers (those in CLAS... you know the ones) that I had no shot of getting in to med school. Since then, I have interviewed at competitive programs (Northwestern, UNC, Duke, etc.) and have been accepted at several schools. Those advisers really have no clue. By the way, I got interviews at these schools but was rejected post-secondary by UF! Oh well.

Anyhow, as far as I know, UF undergrads generally aren't allowed to TA classes. And those pre-med organizations are just black holes - I didn't join any of them. I've done pretty well in the process without them.

There are a lot of gunner types at UF. I mean, how many of my fellow UF undergrads weren't at the very top of their high school class? UF has a great reputation and the our recent success in athletics has only made it an even more desirable school. That being said, I wish I had gone elsewhere. The culture got a little depressing after a while. Survival of the fittest at its finest.

Although I explained in my prev. post that I love UF and I got a great education there, I agree with you that there are a LOT of gunnerish students.
I also felt like I was somewhat competitive at some top-notch schools (also interviewed at Duke), but was rejected at UF pre-interview. (But I deserved it b/c I submitted my app in January.)

 

[gujuDoc]

All right. I have to give my two cents.

UF is NOT a good pre-med program. It is the thunderdome. It is not supportive to its students. We had the luck of the draw as far as decent professsors went, some classes were taught well and were graded based on regular grading scales (A>90, B+>87, B>80, etc.) or some version thereof. Other professors would say in the very beginning of class that he would not award any A's and the curves would be brutal. Unless you were a heartless robot.

Most of all my professors hated pre-meds, so it was a pain to find some that would write a supportive letter of rec. During my last spring semester, I found out from students who were not accepted anywhere based on their letters which were unsupportive, that both of the professors I had asked originally were the authors of bad letters. And these were people were even the TA's for the class and the professors still gave bum letters. As you can tell, I asked other professors to write them for me, and they did not teach regular pre-med type courses like the first two professors. Instead they taught ecology/botany type of courses.

Anyways, I got to go, but I can go on about how unbelievably competitive the students in the classes were, or how discouraging it is to hear that a third of the will get a D or lower based on the class grading curve. Anyone here who has taken the physics lab at UF, knows how frustrating it is to work hard make a 95 average and still come out with a B.

I'll stop ranting, but UF is not a supportive educational environment. They could care less about you or your goals, so long as you continue to pay tuition.

Maybe, but at least your professors can get through the material. I would say USF's undergrad is the same way with many classes. I dont think you described anything that was different from USf except that caliber of your students and the caliber of opportunities and fact that your professors mostly get through the material is there. I had a brother who went to UF for biomed engineering and chemical engineering. He's taken most of the premed courses and when he describes his education there and he always tells me he'd not trade that UF education. I remember at in a few summer classes people from other universities like Miami and UF telling me their classes were tougher then ours.

One of the bio 2 classes here was all evolution unlike at UF. Furthermore, the professor used old tests that he didnt' keep so most students cheated their way through the class. For Physics, people were allowed to have cheat sheets so people had a tough time when they had to memorize things at MCAT time. This is the kind of stupidity at USF.

On the topic of SAT scores, the minimum to get in when I entered in 2001 was 970 whereas at UF you have to have at least 1200 for most people and at 1060 at minimum. This is based on the old 1600 scale. So people had lower averages at USF as most people who were there were not the most competitive people in the state.

Not to say we haven't had competitive applicants. I'm just saying there is a reason why UF and Umiami predominate.

 

[mdgator]

Maybe, but at least your professors can get through the material. I would say USF's undergrad is the same way with many classes. I dont think you described anything that was different from USf except that caliber of your students and the caliber of opportunities and fact that your professors mostly get through the material is there. I had a brother who went to UF for biomed engineering and chemical engineering. He's taken most of the premed courses and when he describes his education there and he always tells me he'd not trade that UF education. I remember at in a few summer classes people from other universities like Miami and UF telling me their classes were tougher then ours.

One of the bio 2 classes here was all evolution unlike at UF. Furthermore, the professor used old tests that he didnt' keep so most students cheated their way through the class. For Physics, people were allowed to have cheat sheets so people had a tough time when they had to memorize things at MCAT time. This is the kind of stupidity at USF.

On the topic of SAT scores, the minimum to get in when I entered in 2001 was 970 whereas at UF you have to have at least 1200 for most people and at 1060 at minimum. This is based on the old 1600 scale. So people had lower averages at USF as most people who were there were not the most competitive people in the state.

Not to say we haven't had competitive applicants. I'm just saying there is a reason why UF and Umiami predominate.

We did get through all the material in our classes at UF. But that doesn't mean all the material was covered. I had a few courses that went something like this: Prof lectures on chapter 7 and part of ch. 8. At the end of lecture, he advises everyone to study chapters 9 and select parts of chapter 10 on his own, as they will be on the test. The next day, Prof lectures on chapter 11 and 12, and assigns ch. 13 as "self-study material." Rinse and repeat. On test day, self study material made up 40-50% of test questions. Most classes weren't like this, but a few were.

 

[gujuDoc]

I have to agree that the pre-med program at UF is awful. I was basically told by my advisers (those in CLAS... you know the ones) that I had no shot of getting in to med school. Since then, I have interviewed at competitive programs (Northwestern, UNC, Duke, etc.) and have been accepted at several schools. Those advisers really have no clue. By the way, I got interviews at these schools but was rejected post-secondary by UF! Oh well.

Anyhow, as far as I know, UF undergrads generally aren't allowed to TA classes. And those pre-med organizations are just black holes - I didn't join any of them. I've done pretty well in the process without them.

There are a lot of gunner types at UF. I mean, how many of my fellow UF undergrads weren't at the very top of their high school class? UF has a great reputation and the our recent success in athletics has only made it an even more desirable school. That being said, I wish I had gone elsewhere. The culture got a little depressing after a while. Survival of the fittest at its finest.

If the bolded is your basis of why UF is not good, I assure you that also is at every school. Every premed I know has said the same about USF advisors.

Even if there are gunners and bad advisors, you still miss the point. The nonnumerical opportunities far out number what I've seen at USF and the courses are still tons times better even if they are more competitive and because they are more competitive and Fl. school admissions people know this they take the caliber of a student from UF more seriously.