Follow up from "worth the debt"

[ClinicalABA]

I looked into all this. I know how much I will owe monthly under the most expensive 10 year plan, and have accounted for average salary and what positions are paying plus deducting taxes. I am comfortable with what it will be

Please let us know what salary you believe you will have that you would be comfortable paying off 200k in 10 years. Seriously- that will aid us in providing further advice.

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[Psychologist_dreamer]

Please let us know what salary you believe you will have that you would be comfortable paying off 200k in 10 years. Seriously- that will aid us in providing further advice.

It was in the high 30k range after taxes and the highest possible loan payment, with the average psychologist salary in the area. Looking at the hospital salary placements which are quite a bit higher than the average was I believe close to 50k after everything iirc?

I dont have my document that I calculated it all on.

Then I also estimated the debt that would accrue if I went back to school for social work or education with those average salaries, the taxes and max loan payments and what was left over and it was the same amount even though it was "less debt"

Then obviously when the debt is paid psych wise it would be a huge "pay increase" and by that time should be making an upper level salary as well, but I won't get that big boon later on in life with the other careers.

 

[Sanman]

Won't be earning 60k that's well below the salary for this area and what clinical positions are going for here. I looked into all this. I know how much I will owe monthly under the most expensive 10 year plan, and have accounted for average salary and what positions are paying plus deducting taxes. I am comfortable with what it will be and even if I career switch into one of my other areas of interest and have "less debt", I will actually have the same take home money anyways while paying off debt, and then cap out at a much lower salary.

What you're stating is also even well below the average social worker salary in this area so you're grossly wrong.

Psychotherapist - Queens, NY - Indeed.com

Sure, what do I know

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Psychotherapist - Queens, NY - Indeed.com

Sure, what do I know

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/...ologist-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM615_KO14,35.htm

 

[Sanman]

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/...ologist-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM615_KO14,35.htm

That is not an actual job. It also is not a starting salary, but a career average. Additionally, it is not helping the less fortunate. The link I provided is the type of salary you can expect if you plan to work with those who are less fortunate. I know people that worked there. Working with average NYC upper middle class clientele you make more. However, that goes against everything you stated in the previous post. It also assumes things like you can bank roll a private practice.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

You are making a lot of assumptions about things that have no grounding such as the population I want to or will work with and what I will do with my degree. There are many high paying jobs in this area outside of private practice as well and there are jobs if you scroll down. I assume you aren't from this area as well?

And really now, that's all I have to say about that!

I came here to discuss my ambivalence about the program and desire to apply to a few more schools I cut out of my application last time.

I appreciate you wanting to discuss finances for "other viewers" but if you want to educate the other members about it further please feel free to make your own thread unless you will be addressing what I am trying to discuss! Thanks.

 

[Sanman]

You are making a lot of assumptions about things that have no grounding such as the population I want to or will work with and what I will do with my degree. There are many high paying jobs in this area outside of private practice as well and there are jobs if you scroll down. I assume you aren't from this area as well?

And really now, that's all I have to say about that!

I came here to discuss my ambivalence about the program and desire to apply to a few more schools I cut out of my application last time.

I appreciate you wanting to discuss finances for "other viewers" but if you want to educate the other members about it further please feel free to make your own thread unless you will be addressing what I am trying to discuss! Thanks.

Actually I am a NYS licensed psychologist that lived and worked in the area early in my career. That posting was not random. I know someone who had that as their first job.

As for your other question. There is little to say that has not already been said. Doing so while already attending a PhD program is a bad idea. You did not want to move and seem to think an MSW will accrue similar debt to income ratio. So, what do you want to discuss exactly?

 

[ClinicalABA]

So being in upper 30s-low 40s during loan payment post all that will be a good increase that will allow me to increase my standard of living a bit...

Netting 40k after taxes, health insurance, and ~28k per year student loan payment would require a salary around 100-110k per year. That’s probably not where you are going to start off. I appreciate that you think you have this figured out, but I honestly think you’ve overestimated what you’ll be earning, underestimated expenses, and drastically underestimated the impact of that level of debt.

I too was raised by a single mother (who incidentally made quite a bit less than 25k). She provided me with all that I needed and more, and I never considered us to be poor or lacking in anything. I’m a pretty simple, frugal/cheap guy now. While it’s all relative to what you want/expect in life. You will be working pretty hard for a pittance for the nex 5-10 years of grad school and internship/post doc. Coming out of all that with 50% of your take home going to student loan debt will be a drag. I encourage you and others in a similar position to not underestimate how much of drag that monthly payment will be.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Netting 40k after taxes, health insurance, and ~28k per year student loan payment would require a salary around 100-110k per year. That’s probably not where you are going to start off. I appreciate that you think you have this figured out, but I honestly think you’ve overestimated what you’ll be earning, underestimated expenses, and drastically underestimated the impact of that level of debt.

I too was raised by a single mother (who incidentally made quite a bit less than 25k). She provided me with all that I needed and more, and I never considered us to be poor or lacking in anything. I’m a pretty simple, frugal/cheap guy now. While it’s all relative to what you want/expect in life. You will be working pretty hard for a pittance for the nex 5-10 years of grad school and internship/post doc. Coming out of all that with 50% of your take home going to student loan debt will be a drag. I encourage you and others in a similar position to not underestimate how much of drag that monthly payment will be.

Nope I've already calculated this and what it will be after taxes and loan payments with much lower salaries than you are stating and it is as I said, high 30s low 40s..the absolute highest I calculated was 110 and that was a bit higher. Thanks for your concern but as I said already I am not here to discuss this today..but rather ambivalence about the program and thinking of trying again this cycle for other fully funded programs for a bit of peace of mind and advice about that.

Also again. I appreciate your concern for "others who might be reading" but if you are so concerned and passionate about that topic feel free to create your own thread and discuss information there instead of continuing to derail when I've already said multiple times I have calculated everything from multiple salaries across multiple careers and am informed and aware of the financial side of it at this point and am not seeking or interested in advice on that end any longer. That was my original original post. Not this one!

Lastly, all that said, I will have more than 1 job. I want to have a clinical aspect i.e. hospital. or rent a room in an established practice clinic (which is quite normal here not many people have their very own practice but rather like dentists etc "rent a chair") and maybe adjunct or do some very lowkey teaching. Also I may keep my pt job which will pull the yearly loan payment in and of itself. Many many people with FT jobs in this area go in for a few hours nights and weekend for extra $$. Many of my coworkers have ft jobs too

 

[ClinicalABA]

Nope I've already calculated this and what it will be after taxes and loan payments with much lower salaries than you are stating and it is as I said, high 30s low 40s..the absolute highest I calculated was 110 and that was a bit higher. Thanks for your concern but as I said already I am not here to discuss this today..but rather ambivalence about the program and thinking of trying again this cycle for other fully funded programs for a bit of peace of mind and advice about that.

Also again. I appreciate your concern for "others who might be reading" but if you are so concerned and passionate about that topic feel free to create your own thread and discuss information there instead of continuing to derail when I've already said multiple times I have calculated everything from multiple salaries across multiple careers and am informed and aware of the financial side of it at this point and am not seeking or interested in advice on that end any longer. That was my original original post. Not this one!

Best of luck to you, then.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Best of luck to you, then.

I'm hoping for a 5 year update.

 

[MAClinician]

Thanks for this feedback. I just didn't think it would be necessary if I wasn't trying to transfer credits over and if I didn't confer a degree.

Considering the attitudes on the sub I think a sufficient, it's a for profit program with captive internships, would be enough of a justifiable reason to want to switch into another program if giving the opportunity no ?

You knew before you accepted the offer that Adelphi was for profit with a captive internship. That information was available for any applicant. If you try to use the cost of the program as the reason for your switch to a new program, you are very likely to come off as poorly informed and like you didn’t research graduate study in psychology enough. Even though you believe you did research enough. Those other programs will probably not view you in a positive light.

From what I envision of a faculty perspective, you have several years of research and a masters thesis with no publications or presentations, even in prep. This suggests, for a fully funded program, superficial involvement in the research. Like you showed up but didn’t take initiative. It’s unfortunate that your mentor was not as helpful as you had hoped from the MA program. Those other programs are going to wonder why you have experience but no products to show for it, when they review your application. It will probably be very difficult to get an interview, never mind an offer, if there has been no change in your stats since you applied last year. And this is not even taking into account the idea you want to “hide” your current enrollment while you apply. It is more likely to blow up in your face than to lead to a better funded program. JMO.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

So from the few people who actually answered my question your perspectives are dont apply to other funded programs then?

Interesting.

I honestly didn't think it was necessary to send transcripts talk about a program you might leave unless you were using a letter of recommendation, GPA, or transfer credits to the next institution. I feel like you all are acting like I'm trying to do something sneaky I just dont see why or what you would even report on that with ???

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

You knew before you accepted the offer that Adelphi was for profit with a captive internship. That information was available for any applicant. If you try to use the cost of the program as the reason for your switch to a new program, you are very likely to come off as poorly informed and like you didn’t research graduate study in psychology enough. Even though you believe you did research enough. Those other programs will probably not view you in a positive light.

From what I envision of a faculty perspective, you have several years of research and a masters thesis with no publications or presentations, even in prep. This suggests, for a fully funded program, superficial involvement in the research. Like you showed up but didn’t take initiative. It’s unfortunate that your mentor was not as helpful as you had hoped from the MA program. Those other programs are going to wonder why you have experience but no products to show for it, when they review your application. It will probably be very difficult to get an interview, never mind an offer, if there has been no change in your stats since you applied last year. And this is not even taking into account the idea you want to “hide” your current enrollment while you apply. It is more likely to blow up in your face than to lead to a better funded program. JMO.

Well their captive internship is apa accredited and only a few small number of people end up in it. I just figured if it needs to be discussed pointing out it is kind of crap and I ended up regretting it would suffice.

I have submitted to a conference which is blocking me from also submitting to othe journals until it's done, but won't hear back until December so ‍*shrug*

As for gre I know there's no point taking it again my math barely moved up from my first to second time where my verbal increased a lot. I just cant to that kind of math. My visio spatial skills are ****. Got 90 something percentile in verbal though, if only it could be balanced ! But I know it won't move up ti anything significant even with more prep. I prepped for months and literally my score on kath only moved 2 points and I dont know how much percentile, from a really bad to still bad one lol. Sucks too cause I'm killer at stats in our field. ****ing BS!

The only thing that would be different will be perhaps a better essay and more well formatted CV, and an acceptance to a conference and manuscript under review. I think I can submit it to the journal of the conference while my abstract is under review there

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Neither of my parents graduated high school. I grew up super poor. Funded programs were my *only* option, as I saw it.

And what would you have done had you not received full funding ? Not go to school?

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Would like some input from women out there who may be lurking!

And for those who would like to discuss my ambivalence and the weight of the pros and cons I discussed in my original post here. As well as what I said could be changed for a new application cycle.

I feel like many of those who commented unfortunately didn't read to my entire post or respond to anything I was discussing but rather fixated on a small fragment of everything I brought up to originally discuss and derailed. I would still like to discuss what I set out to in this original post !

So please people read the whole first post I made and give me some responses on that stuff please !

 

[MCParent]

And what would you have done had you not received full funding ? Not go to school?

Something that would not have resulted in debt. Probably a high skill trade. My life would not have ended if I hadn’t been a psychologist.

 

[LadyHalcyon]

You should realize by now that the narrative of this forum is "only funded programs are worth it" and "diploma mills are horrible." I'm not saying I disagree with these statements but basically mosts responses made on this forum will follow this trend, and the tone tends to feel very condescending. Also, someone will usually mention R1 programs. I understand your frustration but that's just the culture of this particular forum.

You are making a lot of assumptions about things that have no grounding such as the population I want to or will work with and what I will do with my degree. There are many high paying jobs in this area outside of private practice as well and there are jobs if you scroll down. I assume you aren't from this area as well?

And really now, that's all I have to say about that!

I came here to discuss my ambivalence about the program and desire to apply to a few more schools I cut out of my application last time.

I appreciate you wanting to discuss finances for "other viewers" but if you want to educate the other members about it further please feel free to make your own thread unless you will be addressing what I am trying to discuss! Thanks.

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[foreverbull]

[

I am referring to the salary survey that APA last released. https://www.williamjames.edu/alumni/career-services/upload/apa-grad-debt-salaries.pdf
Rates of about 32% with no debt. Pretty close to a third last I checked. Definitely going to be differences based on sampling errors, as the study you cited had a return rate of only about 13% of respondents. Definitely possible that there has been a trend change over the years, but I imagine it's somewhere in between if we had more people answer, from what we know about random sampling surveys.

Regardless, many people are choosing high levels of debt because they don't want to put in the work of getting a fully funded position. We see the excuses all of the time, and they usually have nothing to do with being disadvantaged, rather they do not wish to be inconvenienced. I'd have more sympathy if there was something like a provider shortage, rather than a surplus in pretty much every metro area in the US.

Is this data from 2007? If so, a lot has changed in the past 11 years when it comes to student debt and tuition costs (in general, student debt has ballooned in the past several years: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cn...nces-jump-nearly-150-percent-in-a-decade.html), so it isn’t a stretch of the imagination to think the numbers have changed for the worse for psychology grad students, too. I would trust the newer numbers from from 2016 (@calimich) as a more relevant source than 11-year-old data. Despite the response rate, there was still quite a range of debt reported, and from a fair amount, no debt reported at all, whereas we'd likely expect only those with heavy debt to respond because they would be expected to have higher investment in the topic. In fact, your numbers and these numbers aren’t extremely far from each other, but a change we could expect with an increase in tuition over inflation rates in the past decade, cost of living increases, etc.

Perhaps some folks entering grad school don’t want to be “inconvenienced,” but then there are systemic issues or unexpected costs, or finding out later that some tuition isn’t covered, etc. Sometimes folks will specify that they did choose a higher debt path out of “convenience,” and sometimes there are more factors involved in debt. It doesn’t have to be an all-or-nothing scenario.

 

[MCParent]

Something that would not have resulted in debt. Probably a high skill trade. My life would not have ended if I hadn’t been a psychologist.

Oooo elevator technician. $80k salary with a high school diploma and apprenticeship. 13% projected job growth.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Something that would not have resulted in debt. Probably a high skill trade. My life would not have ended if I hadn’t been a psychologist.

And there's the big difference between us and why your model doesn't apply !

Must be great to be a man with those options ! Working class women dont have much opportunity to apprentice and get school for free while earning a middle-upper middle class salary.

What are working class women's options I ask ? And if they cant be in a 99-97% percentile they are doomed to servitude? Wow.

 

[MCParent]

And there's the big difference between us and why your model doesn't apply !

Must be great to be a man with those options ! Working class women dont have much opportunity to apprentice and get school for free while earning a middle-upper middle class salary.

What are working class women's options I ask ? And if they cant be in a 99-97% percentile they are doomed to servitude? Wow.

Trade schools ban women now? I mean, I knew trump was president but...

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

[


Is this data from 2007? If so, a lot has changed in the past 11 years when it comes to student debt and tuition costs (in general, student debt has ballooned in the past several years: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cn...nces-jump-nearly-150-percent-in-a-decade.html), so it isn’t a stretch of the imagination to think the numbers have changed for the worse for psychology grad students, too. I would trust the newer numbers from from 2016 (@calimich) as a more relevant source than 11-year-old data. Despite the response rate, there was still quite a range of debt reported, and from a fair amount, no debt reported at all, whereas we'd likely expect only those with heavy debt to respond because they would be expected to have higher investment in the topic. In fact, your numbers and these numbers aren’t extremely far from each other, but a change we could expect with an increase in tuition over inflation rates in the past decade, cost of living increases, etc.

Perhaps some folks entering grad school don’t want to be “inconvenienced,” but then there are systemic issues or unexpected costs, or finding out later that some tuition isn’t covered, etc. Sometimes folks will specify that they did choose a higher debt path out of “convenience,” and sometimes there are more factors involved in debt. It doesn’t have to be an all-or-nothing scenario.

Exactly. I've tried my hardest to keep debt to a minimum, go where I can, and work through all my schooling since high school to pay for living expenses, textbooks etc.

I did what I was told to do:volunteer in labs and clinical. Be as involved as possible. I took a year off between ba and ma just to do research lab and apply and was involved in lab and clinical work all through my ma. I did testing, coding. And loads of clinical and research stuff. I worked with loads of diverse and underprivileged populations in all sorts of areas. I did not 1 but 2 ma theses. 1 qualitative and 1 quantitative, one clinical one self report stuff; because I was ambitious. I got tied up with my qual where I wont be able submit stuff but I can for my Quant. Just never got mentored on that side of it. No ma students in my lab got authorship only PhD, and in my ba lab no students got authorship on any studies pi did at all.

I did everything I was told to do and more. And I would have done even more had I had the opportunity

I am now currently finally being offered authorship and getting the mentorship on my research more rather than doing slave labor for nothing more than bullets on a CV and a recc letter. But it wasn't just me that didn't get these opportunities, no one at my level in my labs did, and I got more opportunities than most of my lab members by being allowed to do clinical work. Almost no one else was granted that.

And I did all this while working and supporting myself with no help! I worked nights after class, research lab. And my clinical volunteering. I commuted 4 hours a day for my clinical stuff. I worked hard and I take great offense when people act like because I didn't get into r1 or authorship its cause I'm a lazy idiot who clearly isn't capable because that's far from the truth because if that was the case I wouldn't have been able to do what I did. And I think it's a real shame that the field is what it is where hard work like this frankly, doesn't pay off.

I'm sure people in less competitive areas get away with far less and get authorship far easier than its handed out here. And just because they have that and are better at geometry they get in even if they didn't work as hard as I did and do as much. Because the academics control the field and its quite a shame because they only care about numbers on geometry scores and number of authorship. It's quite a shame because that is not really reflective of all that being a good clinical psychologist entails and what prepares someone to work hard and so a good job.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Trade schools ban women now? I mean, I knew trump was president but...

Women cant do the same level of physical labor. Tell me a trade someone whose petite and 100 lbs can do lol.

All you're doing is enforcing elitism and proving my point you know. If you cant beat ridiculous odds and go into paywalled elitist education structure then screw you into the coal mines peasant is basically what you're saying lol.

Also do you know any working class people who have settled? Who had a dream and looked at the cost of education and the elitism and the attitudes your endorsing and said, there no place for me here ? And then entered into an extremely physically demanding and life threatening career they dont want because they feel they have no other options?
I suspect not because if you did you wouldn't be arguing that as some kind of better life choice.

You may have humble origins but you clearly have moved far beyond them and are quite out of touch with the reality of it. Or are completely in denial and using some pretty severe defense mechanisms to maintain this worldview you have.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Would like some input from women out there who may be lurking!

And for those who would like to discuss my ambivalence and the weight of the pros and cons I discussed in my original post here. As well as what I said could be changed for a new application cycle.

I feel like many of those who commented unfortunately didn't read to my entire post or respond to anything I was discussing but rather fixated on a small fragment of everything I brought up to originally discuss and derailed. I would still like to discuss what I set out to in this original post !

So please people read the whole first post I made and give me some responses on that stuff please !

I repeat !

 

[Sanman]

Women cant do the same level of physical labor. Tell me a trade someone whose petite and 100 lbs can do lol.

All you're doing is enforcing elitism and proving my point you know. If you cant beat ridiculous odds and go into paywalled elitist education structure then screw you into the coal mines peasant is basically what you're saying lol.

Also do you know any working class people who have settled? Who had a dream and looked at the cost of education and the elitism and the attitudes your endorsing and said, there no place for me here ? And then entered into an extremely physically demanding and life threatening career they dont want because they feel they have no other options?
I suspect not because if you did you wouldn't be arguing that as some kind of better life choice.

You may have humble origins but you clearly have moved far beyond them and are quite out of touch with the reality of it. Or are completely in denial and using some pretty severe defense mechanisms to maintain this worldview you have.

I will definitely let all the working and lower middle class women I went to school with at my public university that they are doomed because instead of opting to get a PhD in psychology they are registered nurses, teachers, accountants, occupational therapists ,etc. I'll also let the two working class friends of mine that couldn't afford college straight away and have careers in banking and real estate that they are doomed to work for minimum wage. Especially the banker, as she settled for being a bank manager despite working her way through a teaching degree because she makes more money there. Or is it just that you are the only person here that can speak for the working class?

EDIT: FYI, nursing and social work are actually great fields for those that want to change their financial future. You can work jobs from HS on up and work your way through the field. I used to work with a nurse practitioner making six figures that started out as a CNA 40 years ago and worked her way up all the rungs saving money for school along the way. She is brilliant.

 

[LadyHalcyon]

Women cant do the same level of physical labor. Tell me a trade someone whose petite and 100 lbs can do lol.

All you're doing is enforcing elitism and proving my point you know. If you cant beat ridiculous odds and go into paywalled elitist education structure then screw you into the coal mines peasant is basically what you're saying lol.

Also do you know any working class people who have settled? Who had a dream and looked at the cost of education and the elitism and the attitudes your endorsing and said, there no place for me here ? And then entered into an extremely physically demanding and life threatening career they dont want because they feel they have no other options?
I suspect not because if you did you wouldn't be arguing that as some kind of better life choice.

You may have humble origins but you clearly have moved far beyond them and are quite out of touch with the reality of it. Or are completely in denial and using some pretty severe defense mechanisms to maintain this worldview you have.

I can't sleep and I'm sitting here thinking about unfinished intakes, notes, and treatment plans. Fun times. I know you asked to hear from women, I am a woman . Anyway, I incurred 30 grand in debt in undergrad and another 45 in grad school. I will say my school (a non diploma mill, university based PsyD program) was partially funded. Tuition each year was approximately 25 grand per year, although the cost of tuition decreased as the program progressed; the program was 5 years plus internship, 120 credits and average cost of credit was 900 dollars. I had a graduate assistantship each year that covered 6 credits and then I received an additional 10 grand in funding each year. I chose to take out loans due to the fact I am a single mom and the intensity of our program did not allow for outside employment. So basically, with interest, I have about 90 grand in debt. I also have a doctorate. To me, this was worth it. I also had limited options due to my child and having to stay in the same area as her father. Since graduating in June, I have signed up for the PAYE repayment plan where my monthly payment is based on my income. Because of having a dependent and the fact I only made 27,000 on internship, my payments for the next year are 0 dollars per month. I choose to pay more than that, but I don't have to. With this program my payments cannot exceed a certain percentage of my income (I have to report my income once per year and my payments are recalculated). This percentage is 10%. Also, with this program my payments are limited to 20 years and then the rest of my loans are forgiven. Sure I would like to pay off all my loans sooner, but I am also ok with paying 10% for 20 years. I understand some people may not be ok with a similar situation, but I am. I also am aware that given the state of our country this program may not exist in 20 years. Unfortunately, that is out of my control.

I think it is ideal to try to achieve education without procuring debt, but unfortunately the situation in our country right now in regards to higher education is horrible and, as a previous post mentioned, more people are choosing trade schools as they offer a good salary without the debt of pursuing a medical degree, law degree, or PsyD. I personally did not use ONLY logic when making my decision to attend graduate school. We as clinicians should know people rarely operate only based on logic, otherwise we may not have a job! I love psychology and have wanted to be a psychologist since junior year of high school. Although my program was not perfect, it provided me with amazing training and the fact I received 14 internship interviews and matched at my first choice speaks to that in my opinion. Throughout my training, even through the most stressful times-and trust me there were plenty, I have always had an underlying feeling of joy because I loved what I was doing and knew for a fact I made the right choice. I may have been happier in another career I suppose, but I doubt it. To me, that feeling is invaluable and I don't regret my decision.

I am sorry you are not enjoying your first month of the program. I believe some of your concerns are valid, yet it has only been one month and things may change. I guess it depends on your end goal. Obviously good training is essential, but a lot of that depends on practicum supervisors and university supervisors. As someone mentioned previously, there are many ways to supplement your classes with outside readings and create experiences that may not seem readily available. Fully funded PhD slots are difficult to obtain and I don't like how sometimes the attitude of this forum is "well you should have worked harder in undergrad." Sure, maybe you should have, but also maybe a 3.6 GPA with research experience and good enough GRE scores should be enough to get a funded education; other countries are able to accomplish this feat. Something is very wrong with our education system and I see the anxiety and pressure daily of college and even high school students freaking out because every year the stakes are higher. Is that the way education should be? I personally don't think so. There also are shortages of mental health providers in many parts of the country, and while social workers do fill this gap to some degree, their training simply doesn't compare to ours. Additionally, psychological testing is really OUR field and something that is also very much needed.

Ultimately it's your choice whether you want to reapply to a fully funded program, whether that is due to financial reasons or simply disappointment in the training. My suggestion would be to be patient and speak with you DCT or advisor about your concerns (obviously don't go in guns blazing ). This is YOUR education and you are paying for it. It is unrealistic to think it will be perfect, but if it really isn't meeting your needs then 5 years is a long time to be miserable. But if the end goal is to become a psychologist, then maybe stick it out; only you can make this choice. If you do apply, there are associated costs for application fees and obviously a delay in time. I am sorry if you feel attacked or berated by some of the comments. Given that we are clinicians, or clinicians in training, I am sometimes shocked by the lack of empathy and cognitive flexibility on this forum. It could be that I am misinterpreting because one can't always accurately depict tone through written word, but I don't think I am. Life is a journey full of ups and downs and everyone's path is different. Some people are not ok with debt and others are. Some people think all PsyD programs are inferior to PhD programs and some people don't. I think match rate is a really important Stat to focus on bc at the end of the day you need an APA accredited program with an APA accredited internship. Good luck on your journey and I hope you choose to provide an update in the near future.

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[McMurphy]

Working class (petite) woman here with mild physical limitations. Because I've already accrued what I believe is too much debt between undergrad and my masters program, a fully funded program is a must for me. If I dont end up in a fully funded program, I would look into a trade or perhaps engineering.

For what its worth, I work as a masters level practitioner at a site which also serves as an APA accredited captive internship site for a local diploma mill. Three of my coworkers returned to the site after finishing their internship because they had difficulty finding a job elsewhere and are currently severely underpaid. One was struggling to buy a house because of his debt to income ratio and decided to switch to sales because he could make more there. I'm sure the stigma of their program did not assist them in their job search...

I'm not saying that these are typical experiences. They could be outliers, but it was enough for me to think twice about accruing more debt, especially from programs not well regarded.

 

[WisNeuro]

[


Is this data from 2007? If so, a lot has changed in the past 11 years when it comes to student debt and tuition costs (in general, student debt has ballooned in the past several years: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cn...nces-jump-nearly-150-percent-in-a-decade.html), so it isn’t a stretch of the imagination to think the numbers have changed for the worse for psychology grad students, too. I would trust the newer numbers from from 2016 (@calimich) as a more relevant source than 11-year-old data. Despite the response rate, there was still quite a range of debt reported, and from a fair amount, no debt reported at all, whereas we'd likely expect only those with heavy debt to respond because they would be expected to have higher investment in the topic. In fact, your numbers and these numbers aren’t extremely far from each other, but a change we could expect with an increase in tuition over inflation rates in the past decade, cost of living increases, etc.

Perhaps some folks entering grad school don’t want to be “inconvenienced,” but then there are systemic issues or unexpected costs, or finding out later that some tuition isn’t covered, etc. Sometimes folks will specify that they did choose a higher debt path out of “convenience,” and sometimes there are more factors involved in debt. It doesn’t have to be an all-or-nothing scenario.

I wouldn't, with that sampling rate in an anonymous internet survey method, especially when they also included nonclinical psych degrees. As I mentioned, the answer is probably somewhere in between, but new doesn't trump poor methodology. Also, even if we take the new numbers at face value, that is a large portion of people still going through with 0 grad school debt. Doesn't change the fact that everyone has access to the numbers. They know the tuition, they know the future salaries, they can do the math if they so choose. I mean, I am no Trump fan, but I totally hope that he eliminates the PSLF or at least nerfs the hell out of it. Too many people counting on it to make terrible decisions that we pay for in various ways.

 

[ClinicalABA]

You should realize by now that the narrative of this forum is "only funded programs are worth it" and "diploma mills are horrible."

Yeah- I think that’s often the message. But within that message is the advice that, just maybe, doing a little bit more up front may potentially save you quite a bit more in the future. Where that doesn’t work, I just think it’s important for propspective students to have an understanding of the financial realities of paying huge amounts of student loan debt on an entry level psychologists salary. In my current job we have practicum students from a local, expensive professional school. The mode response to questions of regarding incurring such debt is something along the lines of “I had no choice but to take out loans, I guess I’ll just get a job and try my best to pay it off.” No forethought about the realities of that debt. These students do not start out after graduating in 100k salary jobs- more like 60-70k, if lucky, in an expensive area of the country (greater Boston). They will be held hostage by this debt for decades. For many, it was never an option to “not pursue the dream of being a psychologist,” regardless of the cost. Sad thing is, we (my company) needs more psychologists in my area (more rural, but not the Styx), pay decent for a starting gig, but can’t find any! Meanwhile, underserved and very needy families and children need to wait 6 months + to get an appointment.

I do fear that the condescending attitude around here can obscure the underlying facts of the arguments.

BTW- Diploma mills ARE horrible- they exploit people who have the noble dream of helping others, and spit out an inferior product that hurts clients. How you define “diploma mill” is somewhat subjective.

As to the OP, She made an informed decision to enroll in an expensive program, and it seems it was somewhat out of feeling there were no other choices (including not pursuing a doctorate in Psych). Now, a few weeks into it, she has concerns. I don’t think some of her math adds up, and I have tried to offer some financial insight based on more than speculation (I looked at my pay stub and loan statements)! Some of her concerns may be legit and insurmountable (though it is really pretty early in the game to be sure). Teansfering to a less expensive (or any non-predatory) program will be very difficult. I don’t know that there is a easy answer for her. Continuing to pursue the doctorate at her current institution will be expensive and may be frustrating/unfulfilling. I’m not trying to be condescending, but that’s the reality.

 

[WisNeuro]

Yeah- I think that’s often the message. But within that message is the advice that, just maybe, doing a little bit more up front may potentially save you quite a bit more in the future.

It's definitely the message. What new people do not understand is that most areas in the field of psych are over saturated. Salaries are not keeping up with inflation. Many large institutions are replacing therapists with mid-levels. The sky isn't falling yet, but the stars are definitely a lot closer to us than they were several years ago. The levels of debt are increasing, while the earning power is decreasing. I know all of these dreamers think that they will be making money in the 90th%+ in the salary survey, but obviously most of them will not. We'll also still have to see how the landscape changes as the ACA continues to be gutted from within, and we see millions who no longer have insurance. I'm hoping for better outcomes in healthcare, but I wouldn't be putting my money on things getting better in the compensation arena. Odds are stable at best, most likely declining.

 

[LadyHalcyon]

Yeah- I think that’s often the message. But within that message is the advice that, just maybe, doing a little bit more up front may potentially save you quite a bit more in the future. Where that doesn’t work, I just think it’s important for propspective students to have an understanding of the financial realities of paying huge amounts of student loan debt on an entry level psychologists salary. In my current job we have practicum students from a local, expensive professional school. The mode response to questions of regarding incurring such debt is something along the lines of “I had no choice but to take out loans, I guess I’ll just get a job and try my best to pay it off.” No forethought about the realities of that debt. These students do not start out after graduating in 100k salary jobs- more like 60-70k, if lucky, in an expensive area of the country (greater Boston). They will be held hostage by this debt for decades. For many, it was never an option to “not pursue the dream of being a psychologist,” regardless of the cost. Sad thing is, we (my company) needs more psychologists in my area (more rural, but not the Styx), pay decent for a starting gig, but can’t find any! Meanwhile, underserved and very needy families and children need to wait 6 months + to get an appointment.

I do fear that the condescending attitude around here can obscure the underlying facts of the arguments.

BTW- Diploma mills ARE horrible- they exploit people who have the noble dream of helping others, and spit out an inferior product that hurts clients. How you define “diploma mill” is somewhat subjective.

As to the OP, She made an informed decision to enroll in an expensive program, and it seems it was somewhat out of feeling there were no other choices (including not pursuing a doctorate in Psych). Now, a few weeks into it, she has concerns. I don’t think some of her math adds up, and I have tried to offer some financial insight based on more than speculation (I looked at my pay stub and loan statements)! Some of her concerns may be legit and insurmountable (though it is really pretty early in the game to be sure). Teansfering to a less expensive (or any non-predatory) program will be very difficult. I don’t know that there is a easy answer for her. Continuing to pursue the doctorate at her current institution will be expensive and may be frustrating/unfulfilling. I’m not trying to be condescending, but that’s the reality.

I agree that diploma mills are bad and almost predatory. I also agree people need to be aware of the impact a 200k student loan debt will have on their lives, given that for at least the first 5 years they may likely only make 60k. In our local CMHC psychologists are overworked (productivity constantly tracked) and the starting salary for an ECP can be as low as 45k. I also agree with you that sometimes the delivery of the content on this forum obscures the message and I suppose I find it ironic, given the fact we are trained on how to deliver messages to our patients to gain "buy in". I know a girl who completed her doctorate through Capella (not accredited and online) and is now completing an unaccredited internship. I am sure she spent a LOT of money and I'm not even sure she will able to be licensed. Things like that kill me and I definitely think people need to be more informed.

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[LadyHalcyon]

It's definitely the message. What new people do not understand is that most areas in the field of psych are over saturated. Salaries are not keeping up with inflation. Many large institutions are replacing therapists with mid-levels. The sky isn't falling yet, but the stars are definitely a lot closer to us than they were several years ago. The levels of debt are increasing, while the earning power is decreasing. I know all of these dreamers think that they will be making money in the 90th%+ in the salary survey, but obviously most of them will not. We'll also still have to see how the landscape changes as the ACA continues to be gutted from within, and we see millions who no longer have insurance. I'm hoping for better outcomes in healthcare, but I wouldn't be putting my money on things getting better in the compensation arena. Odds are stable at best, most likely declining.

It also depends on the the field of psychology you are interested in. My friend found a job paying 105k right out of post-doc, but it's in corrections. Same goes for health psychologists. There is money to be made but we do not make the same money as physicians and I have seen some of my peers rack up over 200k in debt.

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[WisNeuro]

It also depends on the the field of psychology you are interested in. My friend found a job paying 105k right out of post-doc, but it's in corrections. Same goes for health psychologists. There is money to be made but we do not make the same money as physicians and I have seen some of my peers rack up over 200k in debt.

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There are definitely outliers, but it's not a good idea to count on being an outlier. Also, the landscape is changing. Heck, I'm at a large hospital in my metro area and we have exactly 1 health psychologist on staff. And this person is pure inpatient. We have 0 outpatient psychologists doing therapy on staff in all of our 3 metro hospitals. The VAs may still be something of a safe bastion for psychologists at the moment, but the rest of the landscape is changing. There are fewer jobs and an ever increasing number of applicants. We just posted for a part-time job in the rehab setting and got over 50 applications. For a part-time position.

 

[LadyHalcyon]

There are definitely outliers, but it's not a good idea to count on being an outlier. Also, the landscape is changing. Heck, I'm at a large hospital in my metro area and we have exactly 1 health psychologist on staff. And this person is pure inpatient. We have 0 outpatient psychologists doing therapy on staff in all of our 3 metro hospitals. The VAs may still be something of a safe bastion for psychologists at the moment, but the rest of the landscape is changing. There are fewer jobs and an ever increasing number of applicants. We just posted for a part-time job in the rehab setting and got over 50 applications. For a part-time position.

It's actually kind of the opposite where I am. I am in city but not a huge one and there is definitely a shortage of providers. I see postings all the time for positions, but I'm not sure how competitive the salaries are. I guess we will just wait and see how Healthcare plays out. At least our field is doing better than pharmacy. I've heard it's a disaster; schools basically accepting anyone and people who have recently graduated still unemployed after 1 year. That would be horrible.

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[Sanman]

I also agree with you that sometimes the delivery of the content on this forum obscures the message and I suppose I find it ironic, given the fact we are trained on how to deliver messages to our patients to gain "buy in".
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While this is true and responses can vary, I'm not being paid to be on here and I'm not trying again "buy-in". The truth is that many new to this forum already come in with the idea that they "need" a doctorate in psychology and ask us how to fix an impossible situation after the fact. Few if any pop in and ask us what is the best path with an open mind. IMO, if you cannot get funding, an MSW or retraining in nursing with the goal of psych NP are much less costly and better options for many people. Other types of psychology programs are also an option. You don't need to be a clinical psychologist to be a therapist. Few if any are gung-go about neuropsych only.

 

[WisNeuro]

It's actually kind of the opposite where I am. I am in city but not a huge one and there is definitely a shortage of providers. I see postings all the time for positions, but I'm not sure how competitive the salaries are. I guess we will just wait and see how Healthcare plays out. At least our field is doing better than pharmacy. I've heard it's a disaster; schools basically accepting anyone and people who have recently graduated still unemployed after 1 year. That would be horrible.

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I wouldn't look at the number of postings as an indicator. In some circumstances, it's just that the employer cannot keep anyone in that job. We have a practice in town that underpays and has ****ty benefits, so they see people take the job and leave in less than a year frequently. I see their job postings come back up all the time. In these circumstances, multiple job postings are just an indicator of how terrible the job itself is, not scarcity.

 

[calimich]

There are definitely outliers, but it's not a good idea to count on being an outlier.

Yet isn't this kinda what the anecdotal stories of, "I'm from a disadvantaged background and I earned my phd with little no to debt. So can you" are communicating?

 

[WisNeuro]

Yet isn't this kinda what the anecdotal stories of, "I'm from a disadvantaged background and I earned my phd with little no to debt. So can you" are communicating?

I wouldn't call 20-33% an "outlier."

 

[Sanman]

I wouldn't call 20-33% an "outlier."

And that is the no debt number if recall the previous posts. I wouldn't be counted under that coming from a fully funded program. The numbers with under $100k debt should be sizable.

 

[WisNeuro]

Yeah, that was the no debt number. When it comes to the survey I posted, about 70% of the sample reported less than 40k in graduate school related debt.

 

[PsyDr]

Few if any pop in and ask us what is the best path with an open mind.

I’m going make this into a poster.


@calimich, @Magick91683 @WisNeuro

I think that the crux of your disagreement is that one side is arguing acting based upon demographics while the other is arguing that performance is the more cogent variable.

I also think that you guys have now moved onto the abstract. It might be easier to discuss it in the abstract using galudet as an example.

 

[deleted106747]

So I decided to accept the offer at adelphi. And was and have been ambivalent about it since posting my thread.

So. That weekend of decision after my thread.
Actually Sunday evening at about 8pm, I spent almost an hour with a potential mentor on the phone discussing my ambivalence and situation. (I had met with him once before already).
I also spent a good amount of time with a current PhD student in cccuny (which I applied and didn't get an interview at).
I think I got good input from both.
My friend is still sort of idealistic but confirmed a dispute I had in the original thread with you lot {that most people in the NYC area do get placed in apa internships here unless they choose and want to relocate. Rather than be forced to becauselack of opportunity}. She will have a little less debt than me at the end of it all and plans to do PSLF.
Since my original thread I decided this was something I do not want to do or count on because of the tax bomb.

Now the faculty input
I got great advice from this faculty member on my back up plans of teaching. And trying to relocate to a European country I am eligible for citizenship which I failed to mention in my original post here to you all. Firstly, he previously taught beforehand in this geographic area I believe, and as such was able to describe to me the key differences in approach and relating with patients/students in the context of what was relevant to me and it helped me remember why I ultimately did choose the psych career path all these years ago. So that was great. He acknowledged the financial difficulties of the program and empathized it's really difficult for the low SES students and suggested I adjunct/continue doing the PT work I am doing if I want to keep my debts low.
I shared with him my realization that "career switching" into a lower paying field and accumulating more educational debt with what I currently have would at the end of the day leave me in the same financial boat regardless as if I went to derner. He shared with me that then at this point it is a philosophical sort of decision of what do I want from my life & career and when that will be the deciding factor. (Which was something many of you said as well)
He also gave me a little bit of insight RE relocation not exactly from my approach. But from the reverse in the sense that getting educated in that country will not enable me to work clinically in the u.s. without some difficulty and need for further education. This quite frankly, is not a concern of mine. I would rather live in that country then middle America, and if I leave I do not plan on ever returning.

So. After all this, I decided **** it. This is my dream and I have done a lot to try to achieve it and maybe I am just not good enough for fully funded programs.. And accepted the offer. Since I have been very ambivalent though.

Right before school I submitted my master's thesis to a conference, but that isn't until the spring. I also planned on submitting for publication but unfortunately I didn't realise the conference I submitted to to present has a stipulation your manuscript cannot be under review at another journal as they have a corresponding journal, even just while it is under review I suppose for the conference. So that sort of messed up my plan. I won't here back till December if it was accepted for the conference, but am thinking of submitting the full article l to that journal then.

I also ended up placing with a different research mentor then the 1 I originally pursued, but it turns out to be a better fit and I am satisfied.

Now. I have started and am now in my 3rd week of classes and I am having issues with the program I didn't quite expect.

I so far, am not satisfied whatsoever with the quality of the professors or the effort they are putting into the courses. Nor their attitudes, tone, and way of speaking in classes. Now it is quite similar to how a lot of professors at my previous institution for my master's spoke, but a much lower level of what I feel like effort and organization on part of their teaching approach. This is really different to what I expected from the program and a big contrast to a plus I describe below.
-I am also very disappointed with outdated readings. Now I don't mean theoretical. I mean applied. I knew we would jabr old theoretical readings, but we should at least have current applied reflecting DSM V and ICD10 which we really dont so far.
-the funding **** has been v frustrating. Apparently the 15k stipend is taxed. And for a month now i can get no one yo tell me how the taxes are applied, or how much so i can calculate how much loan I need for tuition assistance. I think a majority of students are wealthy so it doesn't matter. Or take out excess grad loans for living expenses so it doesn't matter. But I dont. And for a month between HR, student financial services, payroll, etc no one had been able to tell me how much taxes will be charged and if it will deduct from the amount applied to my tuition billing account. This this this frustrating and I still haven't applied for my grad plus as a result.
-and obviously, the debt overall.

Now. What I am satisfied with so far:
-most mentoring professors are very involved, interested, and supportive of students on a level I have never seen before but really really appreciate, value, and think is really helpful at this level especially to people navigating this field from underpruvileged/1st gen college backgrounds. I also find the director's very responsive which is great.
-I really love my research mentor so far and feel I am finally getting the mentorship I deserve and have wanted. I have a lot of interests and I feel I finally have someone who gives a **** about them for the first time. I'm already almost done conceptualizing the pilot study for my dissertation, I **** you not. And have been offered authorship opportunity on case studies. I am esctstic as I have been pulling for this sort of mentorship for gosh, 4 years at my previous institutions and never really received it.
- I will be providing input on the curriculum to faculty which will be great I think to potentially address my concerns with the disorganized teaching and outdated stuff (I mean literally, were reading therapy books that are from early 2000s still talking about dsm 3 and 4 in psychopathology which I find unacceptable and not preparing me for not only the current climate but what will be expected post graduation {DSM V and ICD 10}
10}
-I will probably have the opportunity to teach undergrad courses next year.


That all being said, I'm still a little ambivalent. I have had thoughts of dropping out, pursuing my idea of relocating outside the us permanently, and applying to other programs.

The idea of applying to other programs is still a bit appealing to me. There are programs I decided to cut out of my applications last year for financial reasons that I am thinking of applying to this cycle while still attending adelphi.

I have even thought of biting the bullet and just applying to the programs out of the country I am interested in as well.

I have considered re applying to some programs but nothing about my application has changed or will change. I will not be retaking the gre, have not yet had any publications or conferences still. Is it even worth it to apply to other programs? I'm thinking it might be even for peace of mind. I have edited my CV since and I like the format I have now much better than I applied with last year. Also i know sometimes there's cohort effect luck that goes into it sometimes.

Now strengths of my application:
-clinical experience (training and volunteering alongside externs/interns in a therapy modality being researched by my ma research lab)
-resesrch experience that involves administering psychological testing
-extensice field research work in diverse and underserved urban populations and my clinical experience with those populations as well

Neutral aspects:
-GPA: for what it's worth. Its consistent. 3.6 both for under grad and MA
- good recc letters that I am confident with and very happy with those that I've seen

Weaknesses:
-really conflicting GPA scores. I believe between 92-96% percentile verbal. But around 48-54% quant. I can't remember exact scores as I've taken it twice.
-no authorship
-no formal conference presentations

Possible room for improvement:
-my essay & research interests: I am thinking that my essay was not very good last year. And that my research interests may have been described too narrowly. I think I also failed by over-emphasizing the wrong things and under emphasizing the right things perhaps?
I think my essay is an area that can tilt my chances in one way or another and I really dont know where it stands currently.
-Cv: but I've already edited that to be better looking and more direct I think.

Now I'm wondering, do you all think it's worth it to apply to some fully funded PhD programs that I didn't last year. And possibly reapply to some given all of the things above? Is it not worth it with those gre scores and lack of research products despite experience?
And should I apply to the international program in Europe?

Lastly just for context, I do not plan to disclose whatsoever that I am currently enrolled at adelphi if I apply elsewhere and I will not use those transcripts or any recommendations from here at any point if I apply and potentially go elsewhere.

I also wanted to thank everyone for the really detailed responses on the last thread. Despite how heated it got. It forced my to better investigate things like internship placements, licensure requirements, my financial plan, etc. As a result I calculated on student loans Gov with projective estimates of student loan payments post adelphi and post re-education in another field, and crossed referenced that with both average salaries in various areas and deducted what will be left of each of the varying salaries after taxes and the appropriate 10 year loan repayments. I also looked at how the taxes will change with dependents, and some expected salary gains over the years which helped inform my decision more quantitatively.

I was coming from an emotional place, and many of you were coming from a biased place in my original thread whether you will admit it or not; and neither resulted in positively valenced interactions between us despite the best intentions, good questions, and important perspectives.

Anyways, I hope to have some good feedback once more and thought after that debacle I owed you all an update.

Thanks,
Dreamer

I think that if you did decide to switch programs, you'd have the most success if you pitched your reason for switching to the program, i.e. "I really loved Adelphi, but my clinical and research interest in xxx made me realize that your program, and you specifically as a mentor, is a better fit for my long-term goals." Much like when you leave a job, you don't say negative things about it, but positive things about the place you want to go.

 

[Justanothergrad]

I think that if you did decide to switch programs, you'd have the most success if you pitched your reason for switching to the program, i.e. "I really loved Adelphi, but my clinical and research interest in xxx made me realize that your program, and you specifically as a mentor, is a better fit for my long-term goals." Much like when you leave a job, you don't say negative things about it, but positive things about the place you want to go.

It will still look very odd if someone goes to a program for a few weeks and makes this decision. This would be a red flag to me. I've had people apply to me from other programs, but they ALWAYS include letters from their current DCT/advisor and it has NEVER been a few weeks into a program.

I’m going make this into a poster.

I'd buy this poster.

 

[MCParent]

Women cant do the same level of physical labor. Tell me a trade someone whose petite and 100 lbs can do lol.

All you're doing is enforcing elitism and proving my point you know. If you cant beat ridiculous odds and go into paywalled elitist education structure then screw you into the coal mines peasant is basically what you're saying lol.

Also do you know any working class people who have settled? Who had a dream and looked at the cost of education and the elitism and the attitudes your endorsing and said, there no place for me here ? And then entered into an extremely physically demanding and life threatening career they dont want because they feel they have no other options?
I suspect not because if you did you wouldn't be arguing that as some kind of better life choice.

You may have humble origins but you clearly have moved far beyond them and are quite out of touch with the reality of it. Or are completely in denial and using some pretty severe defense mechanisms to maintain this worldview you have.

You know elevator technicians don’t sit at the top of the building pulling the elevator cable, right? The machine pieces tend to either weight 5 lbs or 5000.
You know the state of American fitness means most men can’t lift 100 lbs, right?
Frankly, I think some people have already decided to be victims of fate and are just searching for how to justify that.

 

[Justanothergrad]

You know elevator technicians don’t sit at the top of the building pulling the elevator cable, right? The machine pieces tend to either weight 5 lbs or 5000.
You know the state of American fitness means most men can’t lift 100 lbs, right?
Frankly, I think some people have already decided to be victims of fate and are just searching for how to justify that.

I was talking with a female colleague yesterday about this (poverty background who's family could barely afford food growing up - and who has a family that still struggles economically). They found the whole idea of debt being required to achieve their goals worthy of a very enthusiastic eye roll.

 

[WisNeuro]

You know elevator technicians don’t sit at the top of the building pulling the elevator cable, right? The machine pieces tend to either weight 5 lbs or 5000.
You know the state of American fitness means most men can’t lift 100 lbs, right?
Frankly, I think some people have already decided to be victims of fate and are just searching for how to justify that.

Or welding. don't need to be built for that. hours may suck, but good pay, and usually lots of opportunities for overtime for bank.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Or welding. don't need to be built for that. hours may suck, but good pay, and usually lots of opportunities for overtime for bank.

Or electrician.
Or plumber.
Or, Or, Or..

 

[deleted106747]

It will still look very odd if someone goes to a program for a few weeks and makes this decision. This would be a red flag to me. I've had people apply to me from other programs, but they ALWAYS include letters from their current DCT/advisor and it has NEVER been a few weeks into a program.

Oh yes, I forgot to add that if it were me, I would leave the program and gain experience in the area of interest, so it doesn't look flaky.

 

[LadyHalcyon]

I’m going make this into a poster.


@calimich, @Magick91683 @WisNeuro

I think that the crux of your disagreement is that one side is arguing acting based upon demographics while the other is arguing that performance is the more cogent variable.

I also think that you guys have now moved onto the abstract. It might be easier to discuss it in the abstract using galudet as an example.

Maybe it comes down to a difference in values. I don't mean that in a condescending way at all either. I understand the logic behind WisNeuro's argument and I assume he? has WAY more knowledge regarding what it's actually like to work as a licensed psychologist and the financial barriers/limitations. I am only a post-doc and maybe I am being naive, I certainly can own up to that. That being said, I do still think there is money in group private practice (please don't crush my dream). Where I'm working now I get 65% of what Medicaid and Medicare pay and I was actually pleasantly surprised to learn that it wasn't as low as I thought. I understand everyone's contract with insurance panels varies but ideally I would like to have a group private practice with a heavy focus on forensic evaluations. During my internship year I saw how much money these forensic psychologists were making and I want in on that!

I think I got off topic.. I just am ready to make some money!

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