Given the fact that Step 1 is now P/F, how worried should I be as an incoming DO student this summer?

[BuildingMyOwnLuck]

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Hello fellow midwesterner going to AZCOM. How did you not at least get II's with that LM score?

No idea, the only thing I know is that I'm Canadian and maybe I submitted late in mid-August.

 

[Mass Effect]

It sounds like you don’t personally know the stats for surgery either.
View attachment 295696
literally the majority of applicants without a step 1 score don’t match general surgery at acgme programs (which is every program now). In fact, the majority of people who take step 1 and match had above average scores. I’ve met people who’ve matched without step scores in general surgery too. But there’s objective data proving that these people are the exception and not the rule.

it’s cool that your desired field doesn’t value step scores very much. But it’s ignorant to imply that step scores haven’t helped applicants match fields/programs they otherwise wouldn’t have had a chance at.

Hold up, the chart you showed only showed USMLE scores. Did I miss the part that compared those who didn't take the USMLE? The ones who score less than 190, of course you'll have a tough time matching. But what about the ones who don't take it at all? Show me stats.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Hold up, the chart you showed only showed USMLE scores. Did I miss the part that compared those who didn't take the USMLE? The ones who score less than 190, of course you'll have a tough time matching. But what about the ones who don't take it at all? Show me stats.

Thats what the far right column is

 

[Ho0v-man]

Hold up, the chart you showed only showed USMLE scores. Did I miss the part that compared those who didn't take the USMLE? The ones who score less than 190, of course you'll have a tough time matching. But what about the ones who don't take it at all? Show me stats.

Its “score unknown”. It’s like you purposely ignored that just to cling to the hope that you’re right.

 

[libertyyne]

It sounds like you don’t personally know the stats for surgery either.
View attachment 295696
literally the majority of applicants without a step 1 score don’t match general surgery at acgme programs (which is every program now). In fact, the majority of people who take step 1 and match had above average scores. I’ve met people who’ve matched without step scores in general surgery too. But there’s objective data proving that these people are the exception and not the rule.

it’s cool that your desired field doesn’t value step scores very much. But it’s ignorant to imply that step scores haven’t helped applicants match fields/programs they otherwise wouldn’t have had a chance at.

IMO, the data actually refutes that psychiatry doesnt value step scores.

There is magically a higher rate of match at every increase in step score. This chart would be flat if they didnt care.
Peds on the other hand almost DGAF.

 

[Mass Effect]

Its “score unknown”. It’s like you purposely ignored that just to cling to the hope that you’re right.

First of all, no, I didn't. Why would I assume that score unknown means they didn't sit for the exam?

 

[libertyyne]

All Osteopathic seniors.

Applicants without step 1 score. There have been roughly 6 total applicants that matched gen surg without a step 1 score over 3 years. This is probably a singe program that has been doing this. On the flip side there have been greater than 100 applicants who have matched that did have a step score during the same time.

 

[Norwood-Sano]

General Surgery confuses me. Anecdotally, it seems like it's not sought after compared to the Ortho/ ENT / Uro crowd, yet the data shows fairly low matching. Is it just that surgery programs are looking for a specific type of applicant? Even at my school it seems like no one wants to do just plain old gen surgery.

 

[deleted859689]

I was thinking gen surg -> trauma surg

or IM -> CCM/PCC

or just gas.

I don’t mind being a primary care physician, however I would like to go academic IM to keep my doors open. I feel like this will be difficult given P/F step 1.

 

[hallowmann]

IMO, the data actually refutes that psychiatry doesnt value step scores.
View attachment 295753
There is magically a higher rate of match at every increase in step score. This chart would be flat if they didnt care.
Peds on the other hand almost DGAF.
View attachment 295754

Correlation does not necessarily equal causation. People who do well on Steps likely have a lot of other qualities that make them good candidates. They likely didn't fail a class, and they are probably high achieving in other ways (e.g. good standardized test takers, went to stronger schools likely with decent Psych departments that would afford them a better letter, motivated to study, maybe they did some interesting research, did a lot on the side, etc.). I can say for the Psych applications I've reviewed, the ones that consistently excelled in other areas (research, extracurriculars, etc.) were also the ones with the higher step scores.

Now I don't want to imply that board scores don't matter at all in Psych. Passing USMLE is important. Passing by a fair margin is ideal, nobody wants to be concerned that you won't pass the board exam. Above say 220 (or for some programs even a bit lower), the score itself becomes less and less important in Psych. Generally speaking, once you're beyond the area of concerned you might fail boards, other things become much more important.

 

[deleted407021]

Y’all are FREAKING OUT and need to step back from the Internet med student fever dream for a bit. There’re people in this thread making hard statements about how things are definitely going to go with this change and that’s not helpful for anyone coming to this site for a clear-headed impression of what to expect and how to plan around it.

 

[libertyyne]

Correlation does not necessarily equal causation. People who do well on Steps likely have a lot of other qualities that make them good candidates. They likely didn't fail a class, and they are probably high achieving in other ways (e.g. good standardized test takers, went to stronger schools likely with decent Psych departments that would afford them a better letter, motivated to study, maybe they did some interesting research, did a lot on the side, etc.). I can say for the Psych applications I've reviewed, the ones that consistently excelled in other areas (research, extracurriculars, etc.) were also the ones with the higher step scores.

Now I don't want to imply that board scores don't matter at all in Psych. Passing USMLE is important. Passing by a fair margin is ideal, nobody wants to be concerned that you won't pass the board exam. Above say 220 (or for some programs even a bit lower), the score itself becomes less and less important in Psych. Generally speaking, once you're beyond the area of concerned you might fail boards, other things become much more important.

Yes , obviously correlation doe not imply causation, and there can be confounders , but i think acting like step 1 did not matter at all is kind of a disservice, even if your program does not particularly care for it, it is possible that other programs do, I gave an example of peds where literally the graph levels out at 220 and above as a field that really does not care once you are above 220.
There is a linear relationship between match and higher step 1 score in psych. It is possible that higher scorers tend to have their **** together, but it is also possible that people are subconsciously assigning higher value to the apps and achievements of higher scorers.

 

[hallowmann]

Yes , obviously correlation doe not imply causation, and there can be cofounders , but i think acting like step 1 did not matter at all is kind of a disservice, even if your program does not particularly care for it, it is possible that other programs do, I gave an example of peds where literally the graph levels out at 220 and above as a field that really does not care once you are above 220.
There is a linear relationship between match and higher step 1 score in psych. It is possible that higher scorers tend to have their **** together, but it is also possible that people are subconsciously assigning higher value to the apps and achievements of higher scorers.

Board scores are usually the last thing I look at unless someone failed. Others may do other things, but I can just give you my anecdotal experience. Mass Effect gave hers. I don't think if you head over to the Psych forum you'll find much difference of opinion that once you reach a threshold, for most programs other things become much more important.

All your graphs prove is that an applicant that's able to get >220 on the Step is basically guaranteed a Peds spot (>98%), and the fact that the curve is so steep before that actually seems to imply that Step score does matter in Peds.

Looking at the Psych curve as a whole it is a slightly positive line essentially. If anything this shows that confounders are probably more import in Psych, because no matter how high your Step goes, you don't significantly improve your matching potential. Sure there is a difference between ~90% and ~98% chances of matching between a 220 and 270 Step 1, but the absolute difference is relatively small compared to the huge difference in Step score. The curve, while positive, is relatively shallow.

 

[libertyyne]

Board scores are usually the last thing I look at unless someone failed. Others may do other things, but I can just give you my anecdotal experience. Mass Effect gave hers. I don't think if you head over to the Psych forum you'll find much difference of opinion that once you reach a threshold, for most programs other things become much more important.

All your graphs prove is that an applicant that's able to get >220 on the Step is basically guaranteed a Peds spot (>98%), and the fact that the curve is so steep before that actually seems to imply that Step score does matter in Peds.

Looking at the Psych curve as a whole it is a slightly positive line essentially. If anything this shows that confounders are probably more import in Psych, because no matter how high your Step goes, you don't significantly improve your matching potential. Sure there is a difference between ~90% and ~98% chances of matching between a 220 and 270 Step 1, but the absolute difference is relatively small compared to the huge difference in Step score. The curve, while positive, is relatively shallow.

there is a 75% chance at 200 and 98~ percent chance at 270 in psych, that is a huge difference.

 

[hallowmann]

there is a 75% chance at 200 and 98~ percent chance at 270 in psych, that is a huge difference.

Yeah, but most of that is between 200-220, which if you recall I said is kind of the threshold where Psych programs stop worrying about ability to pass Psych boards.

EDIT: Also, I just believed you there, but its actually 75% at 188ish (the curve doesn't extend beyond that), its 80% at 200.

 

[libertyyne]

Yeah, but most of that is between 200-220, which if you recall I said is kind of the threshold where Psych programs stop worrying about ability to pass Psych boards.

So step scores do matter up to a point. Its weird to me that psych likes to claim that they are somewhat special when it comes to board scores. The reality is that you cant just walk into any of the hyper competitive fields with just a board score it is the entire package that matters. However, increasing step score does correlate with higher probability of match. Psych is not some special outlier. Every specialty has a threshold around its median where the increase of match probability increases but the rate of increase is very little.

Edit: The 80 vs 75 makes no difference for the argument. The numbers linearly increase.
.

 

[hallowmann]

So step scores do matter up to a point. Its weird to me that psych likes to claim that they are somewhat special when it comes to board scores. The reality is that you cant just walk into any of the hyper competitive fields with just a board score it is the entire package that matters. However, increasing step score does correlate with higher probability of match. Psych is not some special outlier. Every specialty has a threshold around its median where the increase of match probability increases but the rate of increase is very little.

Show me where I said psych was "special"? All programs are different in what they care about, but its pretty universal that they all want people to pass specialty boards.

The advice on this forum is about Step 1 scores becoming pass/fail. While people are an entire package, aspects of that package are more important in some fields than others. Some specialties have very clear board cutoffs, and no matter how impressive your app is, without that score chances of matching approach 50/50. All I'm telling you is the absolute score (i.e. the number) is less important in Psych than others. What we are saying is that Step 1 becoming pass/fail won't significantly change matching in Psych, because we've been comparing people with 220s and 240s primarily on other aspects of their app for a while now.

EDIT: You know, we're clearly not going to agree on this, so I'm going to stop here. If you want more info about Psych and the impact this has had, head over to the Psych forum.

 

[You shall know the Truth]

The sky is always falling in DO world.

Would you say the banner that was flung to the wind was actually a boomerang that is coming to hit us?

 

[Fishwithadeagle]

Although this is not the thread for it there are a number of things that can be going wrong . You could have a torpedo in your app. You could be from an unlucky state where a 512 won't buy you much, or you could have some other wierd vibe in your app.

Possible, not much I can do now, but I'll have some additional people hopefully review it.

 

[Fishwithadeagle]

As long as you are okay with primary care it will work out. Just remember you choose this path when your school starts shafting you. But many others have made it, you can too.

How will the school shaft you?

 

[DO_or_Die]

Focus on doing well on the COMLEX and see if you can fit in a research opportunity, get LOR in clinical rotations and write well thought out personal statements for residency. @Fat_Albert my state DO school average MCAT is 507 up from 506 last year and a 3.7 average GPA. DO schools are on the up-swing and do produce high caliber physicians. I work alongside multiple DO's that are all incredibly competent in their field. Within 5-10 years the average stats at DO schools will be on par with MD schools as overall competitiveness is increasing everywhere..

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

How will the school shaft you?

Only give you two days off a month for interviews on any given rotation. Schedule mandatory Kaplan board reviews on weekends (did I mention 8 hours of it?). Make you do a mandatory OMM month. Only allowed a specific number of rotations in a specific field.

There are always new ways being invented by DO schools to get in the way of their students.

Within 5-10 years the average stats at DO schools will be on par with MD schools as overall competitiveness is increasing everywhere..

No they won't. DO schools will always have lower stats. The national MD MCAT average was most recently a 513 I think. A 513 is roughly 96th percentile for DO matriculants according to the AACOM report...

 

[Fat_Albert]

Focus on doing well on the COMLEX and see if you can fit in a research opportunity, get LOR in clinical rotations and write well thought out personal statements for residency. @Fat_Albert my state DO school average MCAT is 507 up from 506 last year and a 3.7 average GPA. DO schools are on the up-swing and do produce high caliber physicians. I work alongside multiple DO's that are all incredibly competent in their field. Within 5-10 years the average stats at DO schools will be on par with MD schools as overall competitiveness is increasing everywhere..

Nah bro

 

[DO_or_Die]

Nah bro

Keep feeling that way it's okay, DO's will continue to be equal with their MD counterparts. I've been working as a nurse in a level 1 trauma children's hospital for close to 5 years and work alongside both MD and DO, at the end of the day no nurse or RT or PT cares, they just want a competent physician. The DO's that I work with have proven time and again that they are equivalent. I'm proud to be going DO and know that I will be receive high quality, patient centered training, "bro". 😉

 

[BorntobeDO?]

How will the school shaft you?

Lol my friend. By the time you are done you will know the answer, and I bet it will be new and improved shafts compared to me. Never underestimate the ingenuity of DO school admin in letting their apathy towards student derail careers.

But for the unknowing, here is some of the things I have either experienced or known others who have had it happen:
Addition of random required rotations that are impossible to switch. Possibly added after you matriculate so that you had no chance to know it was coming.
Cutting down options in the selective to not include specialties that DO's normally match in (i.e. anesthesia, PMR etc) then cutting down to only 1 elective in 3rd year.
Deciding that board prep time was not important and giving a earlier deadline to take boards than the previous class.
Forced to complete questions on COMBANK and have students sent to committee over trying to get improved resources like Uworld.
Having random faculty increase the amount of mandatory lectures and labs in their course by 3x over the previous year after you matriculate.
Having your school refuse to report the specifics of rotations or subspecialties associatied - i.e. all internal med rotations are internal - no indication whether outpatient or intpatient. Not differentiating between different services on a speciality - i.e. Psych ER vs Child and adolescent.
Limited time off for interviews like 2 days a rotation.
Rotation cordinators that routinely let things fall thru the cracks, and then place the blame on the student when a rotation falls apart due to lack of scheduling.

But all that is not the worst part, its what causes all those things that is my problem. The attitude of admin towards students. It is clear that at my school and many others, that the students are simply a problem that must occasionally be dealt with. We are always the issue.

Not every DO school is like this, but I would wager more are than aren't, especially among the new ones.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Keep feeling that way it's okay, DO's will continue to be equal with their MD counterparts. I've been working as a nurse in a level 1 trauma children's hospital for close to 5 years and work alongside both MD and DO, at the end of the day no nurse or RT or PT cares, they just want a competent physician. The DO's that I work with have proven time and again that they are equivalent. I'm proud to be going DO and know that I will be receive high quality, patient centered training, "bro". 😉

I worked at multiple level 1 trauma centers prior to DO school as a nurse as well and will be graduating DO this May. What nursing or RT or PT thinks doesn't matter. They have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to DO school. The DO's you met overcame their school, the school didn't make them.

Good on you for picking the physician route, you deserve praise for that.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Correlation does not necessarily equal causation. People who do well on Steps likely have a lot of other qualities that make them good candidates. They likely didn't fail a class, and they are probably high achieving in other ways (e.g. good standardized test takers, went to stronger schools likely with decent Psych departments that would afford them a better letter, motivated to study, maybe they did some interesting research, did a lot on the side, etc.). I can say for the Psych applications I've reviewed, the ones that consistently excelled in other areas (research, extracurriculars, etc.) were also the ones with the higher step scores.

Now I don't want to imply that board scores don't matter at all in Psych. Passing USMLE is important. Passing by a fair margin is ideal, nobody wants to be concerned that you won't pass the board exam. Above say 220 (or for some programs even a bit lower), the score itself becomes less and less important in Psych. Generally speaking, once you're beyond the area of concerned you might fail boards, other things become much more important.

I agree with the 220 take. However, I think psych has loved all the attention its getting and I think that prestige will carry you far in it, especially in a pass/fail system.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

DO's will continue to be equal with their MD counterparts.

The DO's that I work with have proven time and again that they are equivalent. I'm proud to be going DO and know that I will be receive high quality, patient centered training.

Pretty much no one says that MD's and DO's are different in practice. DO's are not equivalent to MD's in the match, and that's what everyone talks about.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Y’all are FREAKING OUT and need to step back from the Internet med student fever dream for a bit. There’re people in this thread making hard statements about how things are definitely going to go with this change and that’s not helpful for anyone coming to this site for a clear-headed impression of what to expect and how to plan around it.

If your coming to SDN for a clear-headed impression, you came to the wrong place.

 

[Fat_Albert]

Keep feeling that way it's okay, DO's will continue to be equal with their MD counterparts. I've been working as a nurse in a level 1 trauma children's hospital for close to 5 years and work alongside both MD and DO, at the end of the day no nurse or RT or PT cares, they just want a competent physician. The DO's that I work with have proven time and again that they are equivalent. I'm proud to be going DO and know that I will be receive high quality, patient centered training, "bro". 😉

Congrats. Tell that to residency directors

 

[Scrubs101]

cutting down to only 1 elective in 3rd year.

wait you guys are getting electives in third year ?!

*insert we’re the millers wait you guys are getting paid meme*

 

[deleted898021]

wait you guys are getting electives in third year ?!

*insert we’re the millers wait you guys are getting paid meme*

We basically get 3! You can do an elective for your IM2 and Gen surgery 2 and then there’s an elective rotation the schools provides on top of that.

 

[Fishwithadeagle]

@BorntobeDO? Damn dude that sucks. I didn't realize that so many of the different schools had ways they were trying to screw the students. One of the schools I interviewed at seemed to have the feeling that the faculty was always worried about the students destroying the school or something and there was no trust. It was such a turn off from that school (in addition to being ran through a security checkpoint to get to my interview).

I'm just hoping if I was accepted to a more established program that it would allow me to avoid some of the uncertainty of these programs and hopefully avoid the challenges that come with it.

 

[Whysoez]

@BorntobeDO? Damn dude that sucks. I didn't realize that so many of the different schools had ways they were trying to screw the students. One of the schools I interviewed at seemed to have the feeling that the faculty was always worried about the students destroying the school or something and there was no trust. It was such a turn off from that school (in addition to being ran through a security checkpoint to get to my interview).

I'm just hoping if I was accepted to a more established program that it would allow me to avoid some of the uncertainty of these programs and hopefully avoid the challenges that come with it.

I got that feeling from LECOM E

 

[iamdamiancray]

Lol my friend. By the time you are done you will know the answer, and I bet it will be new and improved shafts compared to me. Never underestimate the ingenuity of DO school admin in letting their apathy towards student derail careers.

But for the unknowing, here is some of the things I have either experienced or known others who have had it happen:
Addition of random required rotations that are impossible to switch. Possibly added after you matriculate so that you had no chance to know it was coming.
Cutting down options in the selective to not include specialties that DO's normally match in (i.e. anesthesia, PMR etc) then cutting down to only 1 elective in 3rd year.
Deciding that board prep time was not important and giving a earlier deadline to take boards than the previous class.
Forced to complete questions on COMBANK and have students sent to committee over trying to get improved resources like Uworld.
Having random faculty increase the amount of mandatory lectures and labs in their course by 3x over the previous year after you matriculate.
Having your school refuse to report the specifics of rotations or subspecialties associatied - i.e. all internal med rotations are internal - no indication whether outpatient or intpatient. Not differentiating between different services on a speciality - i.e. Psych ER vs Child and adolescent.
Limited time off for interviews like 2 days a rotation.
Rotation cordinators that routinely let things fall thru the cracks, and then place the blame on the student when a rotation falls apart due to lack of scheduling.

But all that is not the worst part, its what causes all those things that is my problem. The attitude of admin towards students. It is clear that at my school and many others, that the students are simply a problem that must occasionally be dealt with. We are always the issue.

Not every DO school is like this, but I would wager more are than aren't, especially among the new ones.

Bro, I got no clue who you are but for some reason I think I know what med school you are talking about. And you’re sending all these children in this thread to primary care . Didn’t you say that all but T-25 kids should think of primary care? How many PCPs are we gonna end up having then bruh. 181 US med schools (MD/DO) - 25 US med schools = 156 US med schools X ~100 students = 15,600 PCPs. What is this, family practice gala . Exaggeration should have limits. The 100/100 kids at Harvard will not go to surgery. There will still be DO surgeons and DO dermatologists and DO ophthalmologists. My own brother who went to a new DO schools just matched to ophtho this year. Please stop spreading the paranoia. The schooling might have sucked for you but not for everyone. It’s all, at the end, fate. You can do the work. But you can’t erase fate. I love your responses, but don’t make personal experiences dictate everyone else’s experience. Say some stuff that you liked about med school as well.


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[BorntobeDO?]

Bro, I got no clue who you are but for some reason I think I know what med school you are talking about. And you’re sending all these children in this thread to primary care . Didn’t you say that all but T-25 kids should think of primary care? How many PCPs are we gonna end up having then bruh. 181 US med schools (MD/DO) - 25 US med schools = 156 US med schools X ~100 students = 15,600 PCPs. What is this, family practice gala . Exaggeration should have limits. The 100/100 kids at Harvard will not go to surgery. There will still be DO surgeons and DO dermatologists and DO ophthalmologists. My own brother who went to a new DO schools just matched to ophtho this year. Please stop spreading the paranoia. The schooling might have sucked for you but not for everyone. It’s all, at the end, fate. You can do the work. But you can’t erase fate. I love your responses, but don’t make personal experiences dictate everyone else’s experience. Say some stuff that you liked about med school as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I like that in exchange for all the BS I get a med degree and that I expect to match. I plan to post something about my school specifically later, what was above was not just my school.

And I did not make any comment to the effect that anybody but T25 should think about primary care. That sounds like a premed. Any MD has more options than primary. They can match with relative ease in most specialties.

Anecdote time: I met a USMD from a top 50 school on the trail at one of my FM interviews. He told me he was the only person in his class applying straight up FM. Most MDs will not be forced into primary care if they don’t want to be.

 

[iamdamiancray]

I like that in exchange for all the BS I get a med degree and that I expect to match. I plan to post something about my school specifically later, what was above was not just my school.

And I did not make any comment to the effect that anybody but T25 should think about primary care. That sounds like a premed. Any MD has more options than primary. They can match with relative ease in most specialties.

Anecdote time: I met a USMD from a top 50 school on the trail at one of my FM interviews. He told me he was the only person in his class applying straight up FM. Most MDs will not be forced into primary care if they don’t want to be.

Again, every time I come to SDN, I feel like the DO is being portrayed as the most powerless medical degree in the world. But like nobody ever talks about something positive about the degree that hundreds of thousands of Americans already attained. The more and more people continue to talk about it, the more and more I stop caring. It’s like we DOs hate to be DOs, which makes no sense. Like can anyone talk about a single positive experience from school and show to PreMeds or anyone in general that 38 COCA accredited medical schools will allow you a chance to be whatever doctor you want to be. Don’t give me crap about DOs being forced into primary care. The MD schools that I had gotten into had exactly the same pattern of matches. The main 3 bulk went to EM, IM, FM. The 4th semi-bulk matched to Ob-Gyn and Anesthesiology. The 5th semi-bulk matched to GS. Then I saw a few ortho and 2-3 neurosurgery. 98%-100% students matched. This is not an MD or DO pattern; this is US medical school pattern. My DO acceptances were Top 5 of the DO tier and MDs were mid tiers in MD tier. When the match list looked the same to me, I simply felt comfortable picking DO as one of those schools was like half of any of my other med school acceptances cost-wise. I’m performing well and am pretty sure lots of others are. I don’t see why we can’t pursue competitive residencies when we are AMGs. It’s meant to be competitive. Will I not have the right to try for what I want when I have the logistics for it. Not seeing the point. Again, I love your feedback. Your knowledge is vast, but your pessimism can be a bit invasive at times Lol.


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[sab3156]

Again, every time I come to SDN, I feel like the DO is being portrayed as the most powerless medical degree in the world. But like nobody ever talks about something positive about the degree that hundreds of thousands of Americans already attained. The more and more people continue to talk about it, the more and more I stop caring. It’s like we DOs hate to be DOs, which makes no sense. Like can anyone talk about a single positive experience from school and show to PreMeds or anyone in general that 38 COCA accredited medical schools will allow you a chance to be whatever doctor you want to be. Don’t give me crap about DOs being forced into primary care. The MD schools that I had gotten into had exactly the same pattern of matches. The main 3 bulk went to EM, IM, FM. The 4th semi-bulk matched to Ob-Gyn and Anesthesiology. The 5th semi-bulk matched to GS. Then I saw a few ortho and 2-3 neurosurgery. 98%-100% students matched. This is not an MD or DO pattern; this is US medical school pattern. My DO acceptances were Top 5 of the DO tier and MDs were mid tiers in MD tier. When the match list looked the same to me, I simply felt comfortable picking DO as one of those schools was like half of any of my other med school acceptances cost-wise. I’m performing well and am pretty sure lots of others are. I don’t see why we can’t pursue competitive residencies when we are AMGs. It’s meant to be competitive. Will I not have the right to try for what I want when I have the logistics for it. Not seeing the point. Again, I love your feedback. Your knowledge is vast, but your pessimism can be a bit invasive at times Lol.


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The overall quality of the matches from the lowest tier MD schools absolutely destroys the best matches of multiple DO schools combined, lol. I don't think we really understand what you are talking about.

 

[Kardio]

Again, every time I come to SDN, I feel like the DO is being portrayed as the most powerless medical degree in the world. But like nobody ever talks about something positive about the degree that hundreds of thousands of Americans already attained. The more and more people continue to talk about it, the more and more I stop caring. It’s like we DOs hate to be DOs, which makes no sense. Like can anyone talk about a single positive experience from school and show to PreMeds or anyone in general that 38 COCA accredited medical schools will allow you a chance to be whatever doctor you want to be. Don’t give me crap about DOs being forced into primary care. The MD schools that I had gotten into had exactly the same pattern of matches. The main 3 bulk went to EM, IM, FM. The 4th semi-bulk matched to Ob-Gyn and Anesthesiology. The 5th semi-bulk matched to GS. Then I saw a few ortho and 2-3 neurosurgery. 98%-100% students matched. This is not an MD or DO pattern; this is US medical school pattern. My DO acceptances were Top 5 of the DO tier and MDs were mid tiers in MD tier. When the match list looked the same to me, I simply felt comfortable picking DO as one of those schools was like half of any of my other med school acceptances cost-wise. I’m performing well and am pretty sure lots of others are. I don’t see why we can’t pursue competitive residencies when we are AMGs. It’s meant to be competitive. Will I not have the right to try for what I want when I have the logistics for it. Not seeing the point. Again, I love your feedback. Your knowledge is vast, but your pessimism can be a bit invasive at times Lol.


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It’s easy to see a % breakdown of “who goes where,” it’s harder to assess the relative competitiveness of these matches.

For example, two schools may send 30% of their students into IM. If all of School A’s matches go to MGH, BID and UWash - and School B’s matches go to small community IM progs - then the outcomes are not equal.

This isn’t to say that we do not have much to be grateful for - but people seldom post here about “how excellent everything is going.”

 

[iamdamiancray]

It’s easy to see a % breakdown of “who goes where,” it’s harder to assess the relative competitiveness of these matches.

For example, two schools may send 30% of their students into IM. If all of School A’s matches go to MGH, BID and UWash - and School B’s matches go to small community IM progs - then the outcomes are not equal.

This isn’t to say that we do not have much to be grateful for - but people seldom post here about “how excellent everything is going.”

IM is IM, bro. GS is GS. Ortho is Ortho. I’ve never inquired about where the internist/ surgeon/ doctor in general about where he or she went for residency. People in the world dreams about our US residencies. It’s just plainly ungrateful in general to see our accomplishments as nothing.


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[AnatomyGrey12]

Again, every time I come to SDN, I feel like the DO is being portrayed as the most powerless medical degree in the world. But like nobody ever talks about something positive about the degree that hundreds of thousands of Americans already attained. The more and more people continue to talk about it, the more and more I stop caring. It’s like we DOs hate to be DOs, which makes no sense. Like can anyone talk about a single positive experience from school and show to PreMeds or anyone in general that 38 COCA accredited medical schools will allow you a chance to be whatever doctor you want to be. Don’t give me crap about DOs being forced into primary care. The MD schools that I had gotten into had exactly the same pattern of matches. The main 3 bulk went to EM, IM, FM. The 4th semi-bulk matched to Ob-Gyn and Anesthesiology. The 5th semi-bulk matched to GS. Then I saw a few ortho and 2-3 neurosurgery. 98%-100% students matched. This is not an MD or DO pattern; this is US medical school pattern. My DO acceptances were Top 5 of the DO tier and MDs were mid tiers in MD tier. When the match list looked the same to me, I simply felt comfortable picking DO as one of those schools was like half of any of my other med school acceptances cost-wise. I’m performing well and am pretty sure lots of others are. I don’t see why we can’t pursue competitive residencies when we are AMGs. It’s meant to be competitive. Will I not have the right to try for what I want when I have the logistics for it. Not seeing the point. Again, I love your feedback. Your knowledge is vast, but your pessimism can be a bit invasive at times Lol.


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1. There is no DO tier.
2. % matching in a field is a worthless metric for a multitude of reasons.
3. DO's are not really considered AMG's by PD's.
4. You will be pursuing the same residencies that the below average students at the MD school you passed up are using as safeties.

IM is IM, bro. GS is GS. Ortho is Ortho.

Ortho, yes. The other two? Absolutely not. Not even close.

There are very real sacrifices made when you go to a DO school instead of an MD school. You made a decision that I truly believe you will come to regret when you get to the end of 3rd year or are applying and are seeing where you are getting interviews compared to MD students of the same caliber. Part of me wonders if you are realizing your mistake and are in denial, because you keep making posts like this that are full of inaccuracies, almost like you are trying to convince yourself instead of us.

 

[Kardio]

IM is IM, bro. GS is GS. Ortho is Ortho. I’ve never inquired about where the internist/ surgeon/ doctor in general about where he or she went for residency. People in the world dreams about our US residencies. It’s just plainly ungrateful in general to see our accomplishments as nothing.


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My guy, you’re wrong. Why do you think ~90% of USMDs applying for Cards fellowship get it while only ~60% of USDOs and ~50% of IMGs/FMGs get it?

Hint: Not all IM programs are created equal, and USMDs, USDOs, IMGs and FMGs are not evenly distributed across the spectrum of IM residencies.

People in the world dreams about our US residencies. It’s just plainly ungrateful in general to see our accomplishments as nothing.

Although agree with your sentiment of gratitude, these conversations occur across the SES spectrum all over the world.

 

[The Hound]

@AnatomyGrey12 why do you think DOs are not considered AMGs by PDs? Just curious.

 

[Roxas]

Lol my friend. By the time you are done you will know the answer, and I bet it will be new and improved shafts compared to me. Never underestimate the ingenuity of DO school admin in letting their apathy towards student derail careers.

But for the unknowing, here is some of the things I have either experienced or known others who have had it happen:
Addition of random required rotations that are impossible to switch. Possibly added after you matriculate so that you had no chance to know it was coming.
Cutting down options in the selective to not include specialties that DO's normally match in (i.e. anesthesia, PMR etc) then cutting down to only 1 elective in 3rd year.
Deciding that board prep time was not important and giving a earlier deadline to take boards than the previous class.
Forced to complete questions on COMBANK and have students sent to committee over trying to get improved resources like Uworld.
Having random faculty increase the amount of mandatory lectures and labs in their course by 3x over the previous year after you matriculate.
Having your school refuse to report the specifics of rotations or subspecialties associatied - i.e. all internal med rotations are internal - no indication whether outpatient or intpatient. Not differentiating between different services on a speciality - i.e. Psych ER vs Child and adolescent.
Limited time off for interviews like 2 days a rotation.
Rotation cordinators that routinely let things fall thru the cracks, and then place the blame on the student when a rotation falls apart due to lack of scheduling.

But all that is not the worst part, its what causes all those things that is my problem. The attitude of admin towards students. It is clear that at my school and many others, that the students are simply a problem that must occasionally be dealt with. We are always the issue.

Not every DO school is like this, but I would wager more are than aren't, especially among the new ones.

You're hitting the nail on the head with this. Couldn't agree more.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

@AnatomyGrey12 why do you think DOs are not considered AMGs by PDs? Just curious.

Because they aren't USMD's. It's that simple. We also aren't classified as such by the NRMP.

 

[iamdamiancray]

Because they aren't USMD's. It's that simple. We also aren't classified as such by the NRMP.

So you’re self questioning your own status? As what? USMD? MD is not the only medical degree in the world and as a DO u know it better. We’re working for a DO not an MD. The NRMP says MD seniors and DO seniors. Both, as it clearly shows, are allotted as people who goes to “medical school” and note it doesn’t say “osteopathic medical school.” Whenever you go to any list of American medical schools, every DO program will show up. In fact, AT Still University is the first one that shows up. Every national organization OR international organization recognizes every DO as an American Medical Graduate. Or else, what the heck are we? We’re legally defined as AMGs. Now what PDs think may affect my residency but he/ she can’t deny laws. In fact, this was the point of my argument. Why are we self hating?

Regarding self justifying, if I was that type of guy, I would go MD any day considering I was successful at it. I have love for my DO community. It’s something that I wanted to pursue for a long time b/c of family traditions. My point is why ever time I come to SDN, I got a population of DOs hating on themselves or their schools. I don’t need to justify anything b/c I’m okay with where fate takes me. I’m going to try my best for residency and the rest God knows. But nobody ever talks about holistic health or how OMM, despite having pseudoscientific components, helps people to critically think which helps you in the long run. We never talk about a good match. It’s like when u come to Medical Students - DO forums, you come to a barren land full of hungry carnivores who hate their lives or something like this **serious background music** **dead corpses**. There should be some sense of pride. Some joy of achievements. SDN says it’s for healthy medical discussions or what not but SDN prolly is the first step to a medical student’s mental health deterioration. Kids come here to check out the DOs and that’s the picture they see. Change that.


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[AnatomyGrey12]

So you’re self questioning your own status? As what? USMD? MD is not the only medical degree in the world and as a DO u know it better. We’re working for a DO not an MD. The NRMP says MD seniors and DO seniors. Both, as it clearly shows, are allotted as people who goes to “medical school” and note it doesn’t say “osteopathic medical school.” Whenever you go to any list of American medical schools, every DO program will show up. In fact, AT Still University is the first one that shows up. Every national organization OR international organization recognizes every DO as an American Medical Graduate. Or else, what the heck are we? We’re legally defined as AMGs. Now what PDs think may affect my residency but he/ she can’t deny laws. In fact, this was the point of my argument. Why are we self hating?

Bro you need to actually read documents instead of just throw out random arguments based on emotion. The NRMP does NOT classify DO's as AMG's. They are in the "Other" category. It was only recently they even added a section on their main match info that was titled "Osteo," and developed a separate Charting Outcomes for us.

Of course we are "American Medical Graduates" if your criteria is that we are physically in the U.S. But that isn't what gets classified as AMG's by the NRMP. I don't care what other organizations classify us as because, quite frankly, it doesn't matter. 1. The people that affect our matches, PDs, and the organization that runs the match, NRMP, do NOT classify us the same as USMD's. We are not considered the same, and our match outcomes are not the same.
It 100% classifies us different and to sit here and argue otherwise is blatantly wrong.

I'm not self-hating, you are projecting. Reality is reality and pointing it out isn't self-hating. You made a bad decision and are starting to realize that all the talk on here about the match differences between MD's and DO's was very real. It's ok. Just work hard and make the most of it.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

But nobody ever talks about holistic health or how OMM, despite having pseudoscientific components, helps people to critically think which helps you in the long run.

Because holistic health is a buzz phrase that means nothing, and OMM is not based in science and, quite honestly, is an embarrassment a lot of the time.

We never talk about a good match.

When match day rolls around that's pretty much all we do bro.

 

[iamdamiancray]

Bro you need to actually read documents instead of just throw out random arguments based on emotion. The NRMP does NOT classify DO's as AMG's. They are in the "Other" category. It was only recently they even added a section on their main match info that was titled "Osteo," and developed a separate Charting Outcomes for us.

Of course we are "American Medical Graduates" if your criteria is that we are physically in the U.S. But that isn't what gets classified as AMG's by the NRMP. I don't care what other organizations classify us as because, quite frankly, it doesn't matter. 1. The people that affect our matches, PDs, and the organization that runs the match, NRMP, do NOT classify us the same as USMD's. We are not considered the same, and our match outcomes are not the same.
It 100% classifies us different and to sit here and argue otherwise is blatantly wrong.

I'm not self-hating, you are projecting. Reality is reality and pointing it out isn't self-hating. You made a bad decision and are starting to realize that all the talk on here about the match differences between MD's and DO's was very real. It's ok. Just work hard and make the most of it.

I am not too concerned about it since I can see 275 USMLE Step 1 and 830 COMLEX Step 1 on my resume right now. I have done my work. It’s time for me to work for the DO community. I live for a purpose. Proving a community that is underrepresented. Yes, money is and was my primal motivation. But now I realize that I may have to look beyond grades and money from time to time. See you on DO Day, tho we will not know each other.


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[Kardio]

I am not too concerned about it since I can see 275 USMLE Step 1 and 830 COMLEX Step 1 on my resume right now. I have done my work. It’s time for me to work for the DO community. I live for a purpose. Proving a community that is underrepresented. Yes, money is and was my primal motivation. But now I realize that I may have to look beyond grades and money from time to time. See you on DO Day, tho we will not know each other.


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