Given the fact that Step 1 is now P/F, how worried should I be as an incoming DO student this summer?

[BorntobeDO?]

Take Gas off that equation. That’s the one specialty that has a huge hard on for Step 1. Now, it will be moved to Step 2. That’s also one specialty where aways are filtered by USMLE cutoffs. So no a a academic GAS LOR or even Gas aways unless you take Step 2 early third year.

Agree Gas will be especially hit under this system for DOs.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[deleted831695]

Thanks
Do you foresee DO school admission stats declining the next few years?

If there's sufficient demand (which I'm sure there is), then no, admission stats will remain the same, or even increase. Enough people are willing to go into primary care and make $180k-$280k for 40-50 hours/wk.

 

[ak14]

If I'm 100% looking to go into family med and I'm starting at a DO school this fall should I be worried whatsoever? Planning on "Gunnin for Family Med" like @BorntobeDO?

 

[Whysoez]

If I'm 100% looking to go into family med and I'm starting at a DO school this fall should I be worried whatsoever? Planning on "Gunnin for Family Med" like @BorntobeDO? though

Most likely no.

 

[DennisReynolds]

There are no "tiers" when it comes to DO schools.

DO programs are DO programs... no matter what... and then there are your "non-brand" MD programs, and then your actual namebrand programs like Stanford, Harvard, Yale, etc.

This change screws over A LOT of students.

SO... if you're cool with going into IM, FM, Peds, Maybe EM, Maybe Anesthesia, Maybe Psych... then DO should be okay.

But you will have to rely on auditions and step 2 and research.

This definitely sucks and thank GOD I entered school at the time I did.

6 more weeks of this crap and I am done and I will drop the best thread ever on this forum to date.

Just wait on it.

 

[Alkaidius]

The point is nothing really changed...there’ll be a couple of years of chaos until schools and students develop a reliable system to study for STEP2...it’ll likely get moved up earlier than it traditionally has been. During this transition the top tier schools will have an advantage because their prestige has more impact. Ultimately more reliable study guides for Step 2 will be released, scores will creep, and we’ll be back right where we started in a decade.

 

[Lawpy]

THE MD'S HAVE WON. THE WAR THAT WAS RAGING BETWEEN DO'S AND MD'S IS NOW OVER. MD'S WERE MAD THAT CULTISTS HAD PERSUADED GOVERNMENT TO PRACTICE MEDICINE, AND THAT DO'S WERE ABLE TO HAVE SOME FORM OF EVIDENCE THAT THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO PRACTICE AKA "MY STEP SCORE IS JUST AS GOOD AS YOURS", BUT THEY HAVE TOOK THAT AWAY. IT'S OVER.

 

[Med.School.Hopeful]

What if they don’t implement the P/F until the proper curriculum changes have been made? They said no earlier than January 2022. Seems like they need more time to make this change.

 

[Whysoez]

What if they don’t implement the P/F until the proper curriculum changes have been made? They said no earlier than January 2022. Seems like they need more time to make this change.

Thus for the upcoming class of 2024, DO NOT SLACK OFF IN STEP 1 STUDYING just because there is a possibility that it will be P/F by the time you take it in 2022.

 

[Prescienced]

There are no "tiers" when it comes to DO schools.

DO programs are DO programs... no matter what... and then there are your "non-brand" MD programs, and then your actual namebrand programs like Stanford, Harvard, Yale, etc.

This change screws over A LOT of students.

SO... if you're cool with going into IM, FM, Peds, Maybe EM, Maybe Anesthesia, Maybe Psych... then DO should be okay.

But you will have to rely on auditions and step 2 and research.

This definitely sucks and thank GOD I entered school at the time I did.

6 more weeks of this crap and I am done and I will drop the best thread ever on this forum to date.

Just wait on it.

I've seen the "a DO is a DO is a DO" comment on here repeatedly and have always questioned its validity. A family member of mine who is a physician, and knew that I was very worried about this change, reached out to a local PD for his perspective on P/F, which seems to be at odds with "there are no tiers in DO schools".

I'll summarize generally:

1. They knew this was coming, and they aren't happy about it.
2. It will make it more difficult to distinguish between allopathic candidates.
3. Sees osteopaths as equivalent to allopaths.
4. Due to a surge in osteopathic applicants over the last couple of years, has become fairly comfortable interpreting COMLEX scores.
5. Invited more osteopaths to interview this year than ever before.
6. Ranked more osteopaths this year than ever before.
7. This change (P/F) will likely negative impact IMG's chances at interviewing and matching.
8. Step 1 was the way to objectively combat school's increasing tendency towards opaqueness with regards to students' performance.
9. Without Step 1, will need to differentiate using what objective metrics remain:
**Medical school attended** + **Step 2 scores**
10. A student coming from an osteopathic school with a strong reputation (lists PCOM, LECOM, among others) will still be attractive.

 

[Startingover123]

I've seen the "a DO is a DO is a DO" comment on here repeatedly and have always questioned its validity. A family member of mine who is a physician, and knew that I was very worried about this change, reached out to a local PD for his perspective on P/F, which seems to be at odds with "there are no tiers in DO schools".

I'll summarize generally:

1. They knew this was coming, and they aren't happy about it.
2. It will make it more difficult to distinguish between allopathic candidates.
3. Sees osteopaths as equivalent to allopaths.
4. Due to a surge in osteopathic applicants over the last couple of years, has become fairly comfortable interpreting COMLEX scores.
5. Invited more osteopaths to interview this year than ever before.
6. Ranked more osteopaths this year than ever before.
7. This change (P/F) will likely negative impact IMG's chances at interviewing and matching.
8. Step 1 was the way to objectively combat school's increasing tendency towards opaqueness with regards to students' performance.
9. Without Step 1, will need to differentiate using what objective metrics remain:
**Medical school attended** + **Step 2 scores**
10. A student coming from an osteopathic school with a strong reputation (lists PCOM, LECOM, among others) will still be attractive.

So when Comlex is made P/F then what?

 

[Whysoez]

So when Comlex is made P/F then what?

No one knows

 

[jw3600]

So when Comlex is made P/F then what?

Bro. Comlex is PF. No one gives a **** about that pseudoscience pile of garbage.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Bro. Comlex is PF. No one gives a **** about that pseudoscience pile of garbage.

Except you know the former AOA 50+ Gen Surgery or 40ish Ortho or 25+ Derm programs.

 

[jw3600]

Except you know the former AOA 50+ Gen Surgery or 40ish Ortho or 25+ Derm programs.

Didn’t the matches combine? Let’s see who these programs start taking.

 

[Spectreman]

I am planning on matriculating to a State DO school.

I received multiple DO accepts this cycle and but only applied to <10 MD school (no interviews). I had a solid MCAT but weaker GPA.

I’m very concerned because of the recent USMLE changes. As a state DO student (school with its own GME), how do you guys think this will effect me? Are good academic IM programs achievable anymore? Should I withdraw?

Imo if you’re sitting on multiple DO acceptances you can get into an MD school somewhere. There are schools that use your most recent 60 credits to calculate your GPA, play that game. Just my opinion, please don’t yell at me.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Didn’t the matches combine? Let’s see who these programs start taking.

They all still have a heavy DO bias, most of them match DO's and occasionally a USMD or IMG.

 

[Neopolymath]

Didn’t the matches combine? Let’s see who these programs start taking.

You and I both know you can't tell the anti-realistic sdn DO crowd anything lol, especially the ones that make it through M1 and still act so naive.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

You and I both know you can't tell the anti-realistic sdn DO crowd anything lol, especially the ones that make it through M1 and still act so naive.

Dude what are you talking about, look at the current residents of all those former AOA DO programs across all specialties MOST of them have DO's in them, why would this suddenly change?

 

[Neopolymath]

Imo if you’re sitting on multiple DO acceptances you can get into an MD school somewhere. There are schools that use your most recent 60 credits to calculate your GPA, play that game. Just my opinion, please don’t yell at me.

Agreed. Would have done that back in the day if it was a thing. Killed mcat and killing med school but got freaking owned by a directionless freshmen of college. I wish these naive and silly premeds and actual med students (who have no excuses to still be so naive and wrong) would just stop leading people astray.

 

[Neopolymath]

Dude what are you talking about, look at the current residents of all those former AOA DO programs across all specialties MOST of them have DO's in them, why would this suddenly change?

No one chooses to go to a former AOA program in general. Former AOA programs have and will be getting more MDs. This isn't some crazy claim.

 

[jw3600]

They all still have a heavy DO bias, most of them match DO's and occasionally a USMD or IMG.

Wait what. Hasn't the match been combined for like 9 seconds? How could you possibly comment on trends?
Everything is different.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

If there's sufficient demand (which I'm sure there is), then no, admission stats will remain the same, or even increase. Enough people are willing to go into primary care and make $180k-$280k for 40-50 hours/wk.

Admission stats have already been declining just due to expansion. Why do you think they would improve?

 

[Chibucks15]

No one chooses to go to a former AOA program in general. Former AOA programs have and will be getting more MDs. This isn't some crazy claim.

Now this is just blatantly false cmon now

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Wait what. Hasn't the match been combined for like 9 seconds? How could you possibly comment on trends?
Everything is different.

Bruh lol there have been former DO programs filling exclusively in the nrmp for the past 2 years....

 

[Neopolymath]

Now this is just blatantly false cmon now

If you said I went to this program that happened to be AOA due to location I would agree. No one applies to AOA programs aside from filling out their app though. That's like saying you chose DO over MD.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

If you said I went to this program that happened to be AOA due to location I would agree. No one applies to AOA programs aside from filling out their app though. That's like saying you chose DO over MD.

LOL bro you have no clue what your talking about, there’s people at my school who chose the former AOA program over a MD prorgam due to fit, location etc. people don’t care about prestige in the real world unlike SDN world.

 

[Chibucks15]

If you said I went to this program that happened to be AOA due to location I would agree. No one applies to AOA programs aside from filling out their app though. That's like saying you chose DO over MD.

So in fact, people do go to AOA programs on purpose. Some do just fine training with your goals; many are more laid back than ACGME ones too. The cut throat nature of certain academic places is absolutely awful. Sweeping generalities play well on SDN though I guess. Same as talking out your ass

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

So in fact, people do go to AOA programs on purpose. Some do just fine training with your goals; many are more laid back than ACGME ones too. The cut throat nature of certain academic places is absolutely awful. Sweeping generalities play well on SDN though I guess. Same as talking out your ass

The funniest thing is that these people will chase the academic name and be miserable compared to the person who chose a solid community program. The only exception to this is if your going for Cards/GI/heme onc and need to go to a solid university IM program, that’s literally the ONLY time that the tier of the program even remotely matters. Of course sdn won’t get this lol

 

[BorntobeDO?]

The funniest thing is that these people will chase the academic name and be miserable compared to the person who chose a solid community program. The only exception to this is if your going for Cards/GI/heme onc and need to go to a solid university IM program, that’s literally the ONLY time that the tier of the program even remotely matters. Of course sdn won’t get this lol

That’s not the only time. Rheum and Pulm/CC are also competitive. Allergy is to a lesser extent. The only sub specialty that I see as easily available to any IM doc is Nephro or something like ID where the pay is worse than general IM.

 

[jw3600]

Bruh lol there have been former DO programs filling exclusively in the nrmp for the past 2 years....

There was a separate match 2 years ago?
Are you saying desirable programs that were formerly DO are filling with only DOs while being in the Acgme match?

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

There was a separate match 2 years ago?
Are you saying desirable programs that were formerly DO are filling with only DOs while being in the Acgme match?

lol there were DO programs that made it to initial ACGME accreditation and only filled in the NRMP, and did not participate in the AOA match....

 

[Giovanotto]

@Epilepsy365; Glad you brought up VSAS. Before even getting to ERAS and residency applications, I suspect OMS3s are going to get shafted even harder with aways. I hate to say it, but in the short term, this is going to make matching anything in the academia setting more difficult.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

If I'm 100% looking to go into family med and I'm starting at a DO school this fall should I be worried whatsoever? Planning on "Gunnin for Family Med" like @BorntobeDO?

How did I miss this. Yes join the cult of the true believers. Remember the only FM programs that matter have osteopathic recognition...

If you are 100% on FM you have no issue. Now if your actually like me and were undecided, but thought you might like some of the medium competitive stuff (psych PMR, gas, academic IM). Then you would be better served doing everything you could to become MD.

On the real tho, I actually applied to one family med residency, cause of location, that had osteopathic recognition. I had super strong ties to the area. They ghosted me. Yeah they were a backup, but it’s not like I told them that.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

There are no "tiers" when it comes to DO schools.

DO programs are DO programs... no matter what... and then there are your "non-brand" MD programs, and then your actual namebrand programs like Stanford, Harvard, Yale, etc.

This change screws over A LOT of students.

SO... if you're cool with going into IM, FM, Peds, Maybe EM, Maybe Anesthesia, Maybe Psych... then DO should be okay.

But you will have to rely on auditions and step 2 and research.

This definitely sucks and thank GOD I entered school at the time I did.

6 more weeks of this crap and I am done and I will drop the best thread ever on this forum to date.

Just wait on it.

Thank you! I have been waiting for that post. Your last one was great.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I was just about to post about this as well. I'm applying soon and am changing my list from half DO to only a couple of them.

However, isn't dropping an acceptance to med school something that's viewed as a huge red flag the next cycle?

On the md side yes, but DO and MD are separate apps. You shouldn’t reapply to a school that you already rejected after acceptance, but you can apply to any other DO school and they won’t care.

 

[hallowmann]

That’s not the only time. Rheum and Pulm/CC are also competitive. Allergy is to a lesser extent. The only sub specialty that I see as easily available to any IM doc is Nephro or something like ID where the pay is worse than general IM.

Don't forget Geri.. there's still Geri...

@Epilepsy365; Glad you brought up VSAS. Before even getting to ERAS and residency applications, I suspect OMS3s are going to get shafted even harder with aways. I hate to say it, but in the short term, this is going to make matching anything in the academia setting more difficult.

I'm at an institution that doesn't take DOs for rotations, but has many residency programs that are DO friendly. I think we're going to still see university matches, but there will be an even greater regional emphasis. My institution knows the local DO program and bets on their quality all the time. The same was true of the T20 university I'm familiar with that even took some DOs with COMLEX only from local DO schools (yes, these were less competitive specialties like PM&R, Neuro and FM).

 

[BTR41]

Hi incoming DO student (thinking about reapplying). I am currently deciding between Western (COMP NW) and CCOM. I was going to pick Western since it’s less expensive and I liked it better. But due to this new system should I choose CCOM? They have a good reputation with Chicago schools and every year match a very large majority of their students to programs at Rush, Loyola, U of Illinois, etc. Now with this new stupid system would it be better to go to CCOM since they have more research available, are older, and have a good relationship with some Chicago schools. I just know Oregon does not have enough residencies already in their state so most ppl from COMP NW go out of state for residency. But with p/f step 1 that could be harder now and matching on the west coast is already competitive. Input would be great!
**still highly considering reapplying since I had 3 MD IIs but need to get that MCAT up. But having a school in my back pocket seems like the smartest thing to do.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Hi incoming DO student (thinking about reapplying). I am currently deciding between Western (COMP NW) and CCOM. I was going to pick Western since it’s less expensive and I liked it better. But due to this new system should I choose CCOM? They have a good reputation with Chicago schools and every year match a very large majority of their students to programs at Rush, Loyola, U of Illinois, etc. Now with this new stupid system would it be better to go to CCOM since they have more research available, are older, and have a good relationship with some Chicago schools. I just know Oregon does not have enough residencies already in their state so most ppl from COMP NW go out of state for residency. But with p/f step 1 that could be harder now and matching on the west coast is already competitive. Input would be great!
**still highly considering reapplying since I had 3 MD IIs but need to get that MCAT up. But having a school in my back pocket seems like the smartest thing to do.

If you have to have one I would pick COMP. I guess the real answer is pick the one that is closer to where you want to be after med school.

 

[Whysoez]

Hi incoming DO student (thinking about reapplying). I am currently deciding between Western (COMP NW) and CCOM. I was going to pick Western since it’s less expensive and I liked it better. But due to this new system should I choose CCOM? They have a good reputation with Chicago schools and every year match a very large majority of their students to programs at Rush, Loyola, U of Illinois, etc. Now with this new stupid system would it be better to go to CCOM since they have more research available, are older, and have a good relationship with some Chicago schools. I just know Oregon does not have enough residencies already in their state so most ppl from COMP NW go out of state for residency. But with p/f step 1 that could be harder now and matching on the west coast is already competitive. Input would be great!
**still highly considering reapplying since I had 3 MD IIs but need to get that MCAT up. But having a school in my back pocket seems like the smartest thing to do.

Normally I would lean towards COMPNW due to lower tuition, cost of living and OR is a no sale tax state (Plus people pump gas for you). However I feel like your reasonings are justified at this moment in time.

 

[Fishwithadeagle]

Imo if you’re sitting on multiple DO acceptances you can get into an MD school somewhere. There are schools that use your most recent 60 credits to calculate your GPA, play that game. Just my opinion, please don’t yell at me.

Not OP, but you say that and I'm a reapplicant with a 512 / 3.74. No love from the MD's

 

[BTR41]

@Fishwithadeagle is reapplication stigma really that bad?

 

[andmcat2017]

People dropping DO acceptance because of this is CRAZY. DOs can still take COMLEX (which is scored) and if anything, this change takes the stress off of Step 1. Study your ass of to be a doctor. Your quality of being a doctor won't be diminished by your degree, DO or MD.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Not OP, but you say that and I'm a reapplicant with a 512 / 3.74. No love from the MD's

Sounds like you need to apply more broadly using the MSAR. Maybe establish residency in Texas lol.

 

[Fishwithadeagle]

Sounds like you need to apply more broadly using the MSAR. Maybe establish residency in Texas lol.

I applied to 39 total schools, of which 7 were DO, and were all +1/2 above my MCAT score or lower.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I applied to 39 total schools, of which 7 were DO, and were all +1/2 above my MCAT score or lower.

Maybe pay a service to review your personal statement. Something is wrong if your numbers are alright but you can’t get love.

 

[Fishwithadeagle]

@Fishwithadeagle is reapplication stigma really that bad?

See, that's the thing, I'm not entirely sure. I know I messed up the previous cycle for applying so late (secondaries) to all these schools. I was just working out the logistics of applying as I've come to learn way more in this past year. None rejected me really last year until the very end of the year. This year I am getting rejections consolidated around January / February. Entirely new ps. New job in clinical research working with patients. New volunteering at a syringe exchange. ETC.

Basically who knows, and I just know that reapplying for a third time could be really bad, and I guess if I just push through, at the very least I can do IM, which I will be happy to do (just as long as it isn't in ND or somewhere like that).

 

[Fishwithadeagle]

Maybe pay a service to review your personal statement. Something is wrong if your numbers are alright but you can’t get love.

Possibly, I had 2 physicians who acted as mentors read it, and also the two premed advisors, to which all okayed it. So I no longer know what it could be other than just being a cookie cutter applicant without enough stuff standing out from the rest. I attempted some things, but maybe they didn't work.

My current situation revolves around having multiple DO acceptances, this change, and what to do in the coming months.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Possibly, I had 2 physicians who acted as mentors read it, and also the two premed advisors, to which all okayed it. So I no longer know what it could be other than just being a cookie cutter applicant without enough stuff standing out from the rest. I attempted some things, but maybe they didn't work.

My current situation revolves around having multiple DO acceptances, this change, and what to do in the coming months.

Well, my first comment is that you might get some MD love this cycle cause it’s not over and you haven’t been rejected from everywhere. The second is that your issue is that your getting rejected before the interview. You need someone who is involved with admissions to go over your stuff. Not your premed advisor, or physician who are distant from the process, someone who has done it more recently and at the medical school level. Something in your app is causing these schools to ignore it, you have to figure out what that is.

 

[Lambert Eaton]

if all this does end up happening and it's bad as everyone thinks it's gonna be and you're gunning for something like ortho, derm, optho, rads, etc, one workaround might be to go through something like army HPSP. like obviously it's not fullproof but there's not really any DO bias as like half of military physicians are DOs and they really only expect you to take comlex if ur a DO and not USMLE. obviously this would be for someone who was thinking about or wanted to serve in the first place as there are also many downsides to HPSP. but I do think it would probably give people better shots at the top specialties