Going to Dental School Will Almost Surely Wreck Your Finances

[Student Loan Planner]

In the financial industry, we refer to people who sell horrible high commission and high fee products to clients as being chained to their desk by the "golden handcuffs." I think one reason some of the really aggressive brokerage firms encourage their employees to spend a lot of money maintaining a lifestyle is because they know that once they get their people used to leasing mercedes and living in a 4000 square foot house that they aren't going to want to change. Once they got you this way, they can get you to do anything they want bc if you don't it means you could lose your lifestyle.

I wonder what the equivalent is in dentistry? The golden dentures? I bet you'll see a lot of folks over the coming 10 years get in big trouble for acting unethically as financial strain pushes anyone to do something they wouldn't normally do. Of course some folks are greedy, but usually its fueled by a need to 'pay the mortgage' that rationalizes the behavior.

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[Giovanotto]

In the financial industry, we refer to people who sell horrible high commission and high fee products to clients as being chained to their desk by the "golden handcuffs." I think one reason some of the really aggressive brokerage firms encourage their employees to spend a lot of money maintaining a lifestyle is because they know that once they get their people used to leasing mercedes and living in a 4000 square foot house that they aren't going to want to change. Once they got you this way, they can get you to do anything they want bc if you don't it means you could lose your lifestyle.

I wonder what the equivalent is in dentistry? The golden dentures? I bet you'll see a lot of folks over the coming 10 years get in big trouble for acting unethically as financial strain pushes anyone to do something they wouldn't normally do. Of course some folks are greedy, but usually its fueled by a need to 'pay the mortgage' that rationalizes the behavior.

I'm in medical school and I already feel guilty for rationalizing behaviors that are wrong but that I do anyways because the pressure from tuition is so high. I can't imagine it being any better in dentistry.

 

[786783]

I'm in medical school and I already feel guilty for rationalizing behaviors that are wrong but that I do anyways because the pressure from tuition is so high. I can't imagine it being any better in dentistry.

Possible counter argument: "I need to stay as ethical as possible as to avoid litigation at all costs, or else I'll lose my license Still having half a mil in debt for life."

 

[Student Loan Planner]

Possible counter argument: "I need to stay as ethical as possible as to avoid litigation at all costs, or else I'll lose my license Still having half a mil in debt for life."

What's the probability of this though? Probably close to 0 except in egregious circumstances.

 

[InformMe123]

Could you comment more on the debt situation with your specialists clients (particularly endo/perio/peds)? thank you

 

[Student Loan Planner]

Could you comment more on the debt situation with your specialists clients (particularly endo/perio/peds)? thank you

Endo/perio is probably closer to 500k, peds has been more like 600k, OMFS has been around 800k, Ortho has been 600-900k. Keep in mind that the folks who contact me aren't a random sample and are biased towards the folks that owe a lot, but that's the bad end of the debt distribution in each of those specialties. I've seen very large numbers for specialty programs in the major cities. If I was going to specialize I'd make sure I got into a program outside of California and NY

 

[cacazor]

Endo/perio is probably closer to 500k, peds has been more like 600k, OMFS has been around 800k, Ortho has been 600-900k. Keep in mind that the folks who contact me aren't a random sample and are biased towards the folks that owe a lot, but that's the bad end of the debt distribution in each of those specialties. I've seen very large numbers for specialty programs in the major cities. If I was going to specialize I'd make sure I got into a program outside of California and NY

because...?

 

[Likkriue]

because...?

Well I can answer for NY Higher cost of living and has some of the most expensive tuition for residency programs.

 

[monkeyteeth]

Endo/perio is probably closer to 500k, peds has been more like 600k, OMFS has been around 800k, Ortho has been 600-900k. Keep in mind that the folks who contact me aren't a random sample and are biased towards the folks that owe a lot, but that's the bad end of the debt distribution in each of those specialties. I've seen very large numbers for specialty programs in the major cities. If I was going to specialize I'd make sure I got into a program outside of California and NY

why is Ped so high? a lot of pedo programs offer stipend and it's only 2 years.Most, if not all, OMFS programs have stipends as well. Speaking of Ortho, 600K is expected, but $900K ?? Go broke or go home, I guess.

 

[SmileItsLife]

I think like he explained, the worst of the worst come to him. If these people had a plan to only try to get into the "financially better" programs then he would never had to have meet them. However, you still can't discredit those people as never being you since tuition will keep increasing, and someone can easily fall down that hole as well.

All in all I think the morale of this story is enter dentistry if you still like, but enter with your eyes wide open.

 

[thegoatest]

I agree with you 100% OP. That is why I worked hard to get a military HPSP scholarship. I'll be graduating from UOP with zero debt, while the rest of my classmates drown in a half a million dollars plus interest for the rest of their careers with no retirement plan. I also invest the max amount into a Roth IRA each year and plan on specializing on the military's dime. 3 or 4 years of service in return is nothing compared to the slavery of lifelong debt. Most people going into this profession are very naive to their financial suicide, and that's why you're getting some hate on this thread. I, for one, appreciate the awareness you are raising.

 

[cacazor]

I agree with you 100% OP. That is why I worked hard to get a military HPSP scholarship. I'll be graduating from UOP with zero debt, while the rest of my classmates drown in a half a million dollars plus interest for the rest of their careers with no retirement plan. I also invest the max amount into a Roth IRA each year and plan on specializing on the military's dime. 3 or 4 years of service in return is nothing compared to the slavery of lifelong debt. Most people going into this profession are very naive to their financial suicide, and that's why you're getting some hate on this thread. I, for one, appreciate the awareness you are raising.

you sound like a sociopath

 

[DOC YANKEM]

Look guys, open your eyes. Look at the debt, I mean look at the numbers. They talk for themselves. To be honest, we inherited a big mess. A big mess! Quite frankly America is a mess. So we need to make America great again. Everything is a mess. Remember we inherited a big mess.

 

[mstanley614]

The two paths I would recommend for my friends going into Dental School today would be either go to the cheapest school you can find and plan on doing a lot of CE and self directed study during and after dental school, then go private sector to 30/45 min outside a larger city and find a small practice that needs some improvement... make that improvement and be on your way..... OR do what I did. I feel really lucky to have ended up where I am. Go to the most expensive awesome school you can find... Tufts, UOP, Midwestern AZ, Louisville... and go on the military's dime. Here are some convincing numbers... I was paid $2100/mo in living stipend for 4 years of school. The Navy paid for all my tuition, fees, books, loupes, my health insurance (not my family's), (not the required computer), totalling close to $500k. I got out of school and moved to a Naval base on the east coast and spent a year with the best schedule you could imagine... 0645 to 1/2/ or 3pm. Made $7000/mo AFTER taxes and will get out of the military already owning a practice.... On the flipside. this guy on the thread isn't blowing complete smoke... if you are hell bent on living in Southern California and driving your nice car to the event of your choice every weekend as soon as you graduate... maybe dental school isn't for you.... but if you do some research and choose wisely... you'll be ok. Find a successful mentor and keep their ear. GOOD LUCK!!!

 

[rivarat]

You're operating under the incorrect assumption that cost directly correlates with quality of education.

The two paths I would recommend for my friends going into Dental School today would be either go to the cheapest school you can find and plan on doing a lot of CE and self directed study during and after dental school...

 

[cacajuate]

The two paths I would recommend for my friends going into Dental School today would be either go to the cheapest school you can find and plan on doing a lot of CE and self directed study during and after dental school, then go private sector to 30/45 min outside a larger city and find a small practice that needs some improvement... make that improvement and be on your way..... OR do what I did. I feel really lucky to have ended up where I am. Go to the most expensive awesome school you can find... Tufts, UOP, Midwestern AZ, Louisville... and go on the military's dime. Here are some convincing numbers... I was paid $2100/mo in living stipend for 4 years of school. The Navy paid for all my tuition, fees, books, loupes, my health insurance (not my family's), (not the required computer), totalling close to $500k. I got out of school and moved to a Naval base on the east coast and spent a year with the best schedule you could imagine... 0645 to 1/2/ or 3pm. Made $7000/mo AFTER taxes and will get out of the military already owning a practice.... On the flipside. this guy on the thread isn't blowing complete smoke... if you are hell bent on living in Southern California and driving your nice car to the event of your choice every weekend as soon as you graduate... maybe dental school isn't for you.... but if you do some research and choose wisely... you'll be ok. Find a successful mentor and keep their ear. GOOD LUCK!!!

I disagree with most of this post. If you are hugely in debt, do not buy a small practice and fix it up. That little practice isn't going to cover your $5500/month debt payment. You need to buy an expensive practice that is cash flowing like crazy to cover your debt.



I will agree with the military route if you could live that lifestyle for a while.

 

[Blueshirts]

What's the probability of this though? Probably close to 0 except in egregious circumstances.

Insurance companies can audit a practice on their billed services dating back many years, if they find instances of over treatment or improper billing then they extrapolate it and expect that X% of all associated cases were managed in this way. They expect a balloon payment, and it can be to the tune of sometimes hundreds of thousands - Source is from a close plastic surgeon friend with over 30 years experience.

 

[deleted696582]

if you are hell bent on living in Southern California and driving your nice car to the event of your choice every weekend as soon as you graduate

The pre-dent dream.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

why is Ped so high? a lot of pedo programs offer stipend and it's only 2 years.Most, if not all, OMFS programs have stipends as well. Speaking of Ortho, 600K is expected, but $900K ?? Go broke or go home, I guess.

I think its just bc most of the peds I've spoken w came out of schools and programs in the Northeast. Maybe a avg number is been 400 to 500

The Ortho 800 to 900 club is mostly from a couple schools. 600 if you go regional

OMFS just has a really long training period during which the interest continues to accrue

 

[Likkriue]

Private schools are already churning people out with 500k debt. So 600k for Peds isn't out of the realm of reality.

I'm guessing perio and Endo folks don't contact him as much. Also he did say this is a limited sample size.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

Private schools are already churning people out with 500k debt. So 600k for Peds isn't out of the realm of reality.

I'm guessing perio and Endo folks don't contact him as much. Also he did say this is a limited sample size.

Right since the sample size is small for some of these specialty groups that are also clients there are other factors at play like geography. I'll tell you that the cost of living in the major metro area specialty programs really kills ppl. Tack on another 40k a year for COL in NYC and then the origination fees and accrued interest that's being deferred for the future and even a 2 year program can really hurt

 

[Puppylover22]

Me after reading this thread:

 

[mstanley614]

I disagree with most of this post. If you are hugely in debt, do not buy a small practice and fix it up. That little practice isn't going to cover your $5500/month debt payment. You need to buy an expensive practice that is cash flowing like crazy to cover your debt.



I will agree with the military route if you could live that lifestyle for a while.

With IBR and with good direction in business sense (i.e. breakaway practice.. Farran... whoever you want consultants) the small practice outside of town with plenty of room to grow is exactly the thing to do especially if you've gone to a very inexpensive school. The pressure is gone and the revenue, if growing gradually and in a stable rate, determines your payback... and you may qualify for forgiveness based on where you choose to practice. gotta check into that before you make ANY decisions but 10 years in an "underserved" area might be the ticket!

 

[rivarat]

...The small practice outside of town with plenty of room to grow is exactly the thing to do especially if you've gone to a very inexpensive school.

You've missed the whole point of this thread.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

You've missed the whole point of this thread.

In fairness, if they went to Texas A&M or Oklahoma then the comment might still be fine as is haha

 

[mstanley614]

You've missed the whole point of this thread.

explain the point then? "wreck your finances" is hardly a guarantee, granted, I've got some acquaintances from school that will probably be calling this guy in a few years... but it most definitely wasn't dentistry that ruined their finances.... the deans and administrators are in fact jacking up prices.... why.... already stated previously the ratio of applicants to seats.... but the onus is on the individual.... I think this thread is worth reading to open their eyes... but scaring someone away from dentistry who has a good head on their shoulders, no way... dentistry is still viable and its working great for plenty of us. Be smart with your debt and structure your practice like a business instead of a charity event and you'll be fine

 

[Student Loan Planner]

explain the point then? "wreck your finances" is hardly a guarantee, granted, I've got some acquaintances from school that will probably be calling this guy in a few years... but it most definitely wasn't dentistry that ruined their finances.... the deans and administrators are in fact jacking up prices.... why.... already stated previously the ratio of applicants to seats.... but the onus is on the individual.... I think this thread is worth reading to open their eyes... but scaring someone away from dentistry who has a good head on their shoulders, no way... dentistry is still viable and its working great for plenty of us. Be smart with your debt and structure your practice like a business instead of a charity event and you'll be fine

Assume you're not rich and are financing your dental degree completely on your own without family help. Now assume you go to your in state school and try to keep costs reasonably low. You'll leave with around $300,000 to $400,000 in 2021 when you graduate dental school depending on loan policy and interest rates. If you're insanely entrepreneurial and location indifferent I agree you can move to middle of nowhere and work hard and you'll be a millionaire in your late 30s.

But considering that avg dental incomes have been on a long steady decline from PPOs and debt just keeps increasing, I think your typical dental student who's not reading SDN will have a really, really hard time. Most people aren't going to own their own practice in this generation of dentists and that makes the ROI a lot harder to justify

 

[mstanley614]

Assume you're not rich and are financing your dental degree completely on your own without family help. Now assume you go to your in state school and try to keep costs reasonably low. You'll leave with around $300,000 to $400,000 in 2021 when you graduate dental school depending on loan policy and interest rates. If you're insanely entrepreneurial and location indifferent I agree you can move to middle of nowhere and work hard and you'll be a millionaire in your late 30s.

But considering that avg dental incomes have been on a long steady decline from PPOs and debt just keeps increasing, I think your typical dental student who's not reading SDN will have a really, really hard time. Most people aren't going to own their own practice in this generation of dentists and that makes the ROI a lot harder to justify

Yeah... I think you're right... out of 110 in my class.... I would be surprised if 80% paid back their loans before 20 years out... honestly I think a lot of them are planning on loan forgiveness so they're paying the minimum and living as they please. Not a great idea in my book to bank on the Fed keeping things stable for you. It would be stupid to discount what this guy is saying if you've got debt more than 2 times your annual gross income.... Times have changed for sure and what you said in the beginning about going into dentistry if you're passionate about it, not for the cash, very true. The trends are going to cross and cost/benefit will sway the other way.... and the people in rural America will be the ones to suffer in addition to all these high debt non-business oriented brand new dentists pleaded with Corporate to let them work for 120k/yr. There is still more than 30% of Americans without "true" access to dental care Farran said it was like 32% down from 40% in 2000. Schools pumping out lots of dentists with the desire to move to urban high life. I'm on board with you Mister Student Loan Planner guy... FOLKS... STOP GOING TO DENTAL SCHOOL IN DROVES....

 

[321931]

I think one of the BEST things you can do for yourself is SHADOW a new graduate. One that is out about 2-4 years. Comparing a 60 year old dentist or childhood dentist to a new graduate is like comparing apples to oranges. Because guess what, you won't be the 60 year old dentist, you are the new generation of dentists.

Seriously, go do your shadowing.

On the same note, go shadow NEW computer engineers. Go and ask them how their work life is like. If there is one thing I regret is not looking into computer science more. My brother in law graduated 30k in debt, and starting out 100k salary as a data engineer at a start-up. He gets free lunches everyday and full benefits. My groomsmen at my wedding works at Facebook as a senior engineer: zero debt at graduation, sign on bonus, 140k salary (sky is the limit or until he gets poached by another tech firm), free lunches, stock options, and benefits.

Dentistry is not all doom and gloom, I don't have any debt because my parents paid for half and I paid off about 200k. I have a good life now, but my groomsmen who graduated 4 years ahead of me has a way better headstart than me on finances. I do think however that I do have "better" lifestyle compared to him....just because he does work alot, but if I had debt, I couldn't afford to work 3-4 days a week, refer out stuff (because I'm lazy and don't want to do Pediatric/Endodontics) and go travel all day. Or maybe I could.

These are simply my opinions.

 

[thegoatest]

He gets free lunches everyday and full benefits. My groomsmen at my wedding works at Facebook as a senior engineer: zero debt at graduation, sign on bonus, 140k salary (sky is the limit or until he gets poached by another tech firm), free lunches, stock options, and benefits.

You really want free lunches.

 

[cacazor]

People in here are way underestimating the percentage of students that have parental help

 

[blablabla1]

People in here are way underestimating the percentage of students that have parental help

100% this

 

[MaizeGoBlue]

People in here are way underestimating the percentage of students that have parental help

What about the students that don't?

 

[Student Loan Planner]

People in here are way underestimating the percentage of students that have parental help

I agree, which causes the average loan stats to be wildly misleading for folks who don't have any family support and are going into school without the knowledge of what a fully financed dental degree looks like, and that's why I started this thread to try to help people know what's happening out there in the real world

 

[Student Loan Planner]

On the same note, go shadow NEW computer engineers. Go and ask them how their work life is like. If there is one thing I regret is not looking into computer science more. My brother in law graduated 30k in debt, and starting out 100k salary as a data engineer at a start-up. He gets free lunches everyday and full benefits. My groomsmen at my wedding works at Facebook as a senior engineer: zero debt at graduation, sign on bonus, 140k salary (sky is the limit or until he gets poached by another tech firm), free lunches, stock options, and benefits.

I've got one friend who works at Facebook, one at Uber, one who just left Twitter, and another at Google. Their work environment is absolutely insane. Themed cafeteria rooms, break rooms stocked with massage chairs, entertainment centers, video game consoles, and more. Unbelievable views out the window, five star dining for three meals a day. Heck they even have a bar at work on their floor where they can get whatever they want to drink and they can pound down a six pack while coding. Most make more money than any dentist except one who's got a $1 million practice and no debt service

If you've got the personality for it, I'd definitely study computer languages and engineering

 

[thegoatest]

I've got one friend who works at Facebook, one at Uber, one who just left Twitter, and another at Google. Their work environment is absolutely insane. Themed cafeteria rooms, break rooms stocked with massage chairs, entertainment centers, video game consoles, and more. Unbelievable views out the window, five star dining for three meals a day. Heck they even have a bar at work on their floor where they can get whatever they want to drink and they can pound down a six pack while coding. Most make more money than any dentist except one who's got a $1 million practice and no debt service

If you've got the personality for it, I'd definitely study computer languages and engineering

If you're going to argue finances, wonderful. But I kindly suggest keeping it at that... Dentists have a great lifestyle, especially for family-oriented folks who aren't about that big city life. I agree with everything you are saying about financial stability, trust me. But I could care less if I ever become a millionaire, especially doing something I don't enjoy. Dentistry/Oral Surgery is what interests me, that's what I enjoy learning about, and that's what brings me satisfaction. It's not about the money, or the five star dining, or that god-awful liquor for everyone. In fact, multiple studies show that "happiness" levels plateau around $70,000, but that's beside the point.... Avoiding debt whenever possible is a great message! But at the same time, perhaps the ridiculous cost of dental school might actually weed out those who are in it just to become rich someday. It may be surprising, but some people really are driven by sincere interest and not the size of their bank accounts. If it weren't for them we wouldn't have teachers.

I just think it's slightly cynical to assume many dental students are in it for the reasons you're implying and not for their sincere interest in that field of healthcare. There are obviously better ways to make money out there, obviously, but that's not what satisfies our curiosity.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

If you're going to argue finances, wonderful. But I kindly suggest keeping it at that... Dentists have a great lifestyle, especially for family-oriented folks who aren't about that big city life. I agree with everything you are saying about financial stability, trust me. But I could care less if I ever become a millionaire, especially doing something I don't enjoy. Dentistry/Oral Surgery is what interests me, that's what I enjoy learning about, and that's what brings me satisfaction. It's not about the money, or the five star dining, or that god-awful liquor for everyone. In fact, multiple studies show that "happiness" levels plateau around $70,000, but that's beside the point.... Avoiding debt whenever possible is a great message! But at the same time, perhaps the ridiculous cost of dental school might actually weed out those who are in it just to become rich someday. It may be surprising, but some people really are driven by sincere interest and not the size of their bank accounts. If it weren't for them we wouldn't have teachers.

I just think it's slightly cynical to assume many dental students are in it for the reasons you're implying and not for their sincere interest in that field of healthcare. There are obviously better ways to make money out there, obviously, but that's not what satisfies our curiosity.

That's the attitude you gotta have to be a dentist. Didn't mean to have that come off as implying dentistry can't be something you do for interests and passion. Just for folks who were asking what they would do if they didn't do dentistry. If this thread serves to give the folks who are truly interested academically and professionally in the practice of dentistry a heads up about how to tackle their debt and choose a school and scares off the folks who were thinking about dentistry for the money then that's a great result. The folks doing it for the passion will end up making more money from less supply, and the schools will have to reduce tuition eventually from reduced demand

 

[thegoatest]

That's the attitude you gotta have to be a dentist. Didn't mean to have that come off as implying dentistry can't be something you do for interests and passion. Just for folks who were asking what they would do if they didn't do dentistry. If this thread serves to give the folks who are truly interested academically and professionally in the practice of dentistry a heads up about how to tackle their debt and choose a school and scares off the folks who were thinking about dentistry for the money then that's a great result. The folks doing it for the passion will end up making more money from less supply, and the schools will have to reduce tuition eventually from reduced demand

I appreciate that. My apologies for coming off harsh. Just adding a little bit of perspective outside of finances.

 

[SmileItsLife]

I've got one friend who works at Facebook, one at Uber, one who just left Twitter, and another at Google. Their work environment is absolutely insane. Themed cafeteria rooms, break rooms stocked with massage chairs, entertainment centers, video game consoles, and more. Unbelievable views out the window, five star dining for three meals a day. Heck they even have a bar at work on their floor where they can get whatever they want to drink and they can pound down a six pack while coding. Most make more money than any dentist except one who's got a $1 million practice and no debt service

If you've got the personality for it, I'd definitely study computer languages and engineering

Yeah, but those people are basically living at their jobs WITHOUT walls anywhere. I think you need to have a certain personality for it. The grass is always greener somewhere else, so as long as you can find a job without having to live paycheck to paycheck I think that is a good idea to do what you love.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

Yeah, but those people are basically living at their jobs WITHOUT walls anywhere. I think you need to have a certain personality for it. The grass is always greener somewhere else, so as long as you can find a job without having to live paycheck to paycheck I think that is a good idea to do what you love.

Totally agree. The number one thing is to like what you do. I'm of the opinion that you can like multiple different things. And not having debt gives you choices. Shadow a ton of dentists, pay to go to a dental convention and talk to folks there, hang out on dentaltown and see what practicing dentists are talking about, etc

 

[Alpha Centauri]

What about the students that don't?

Get a richer family

 

[DentistScientist]

deleted. should have read the thread.

 

[Ollivander]

It's a shame the sticky from this thread was removed. This thread was one of the more helpful and educational threads I've read in my years on this forum. It sucks that it'll get buried now, and future pre-dental students might go into the profession blind. I think dentistry is still a good profession to get into if you're that passionate about it where you don't care about massive returns until late in your career, or paying your student and practice loans off until your 50's or later. However, if you're seeking financial independence at an earlier age in life I'm not sure this is the route to take any longer unless you're 1) Going to a cheap in-state school, or 2) Having a sizable portion/all of your education paid for by the military or your parents.

 

[allantois]

Lmao did NYU and USC bribe SDN to have the thread unstickied?

 

[thegoatest]

Lmao did NYU and USC bribe SDN to have the thread unstickied?

They can afford it fo sho!

 

[torque]

OP brings some legitimate concerns and everyone needs to be made aware of the financial risks of going in to dentistry.
With that said, every situation is unique: rich parents, HPSP, NHSC, housing situations, in-state schools, etc.
So just be mindful of these risks before you think you can buy a Tesla right out of school.
But do NOT deter yourself from going in to dentistry if it is indeed your passion.

 

[thegoatest]

But do NOT deter yourself from going in to dentistry if it is indeed your passion.

Mike Rowe (and myself) would disagree... Don't pursue your passion, chase opportunity...

 

[Flemish]

Knew I should've went to online financial planning school.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

OP brings some legitimate concerns and everyone needs to be made aware of the financial risks of going in to dentistry.
With that said, every situation is unique: rich parents, HPSP, NHSC, housing situations, in-state schools, etc.
So just be mindful of these risks before you think you can buy a Tesla right out of school.
But do NOT deter yourself from going in to dentistry if it is indeed your passion.

With all due respect, you won't truly find out if dentistry is your passion until you start practicing, or at least work on patients in D3 and D4

 

[DOC YANKEM]

With all due respect, you won't truly find out if dentistry is your passion until you start practicing, or at least work on patients in D3 and D4

Some dental students were dismissed for not having the manual dexterity.