Going to Dental School Will Almost Surely Wreck Your Finances

[Student Loan Planner]

Funny isnt it Travis, if you were so hot on making money, you would have kept your mouth shut, and let this whole thing blossom so you have tons of future business in the future, and trust me from what Im seeing many will be contacting you.

If I loved money I would've stayed in my seat as a bond trader. One of the guys I traded with as a counterparty at Barclays made $3 million a year as an employee. Saw some other Wall Street guys order two $150 cheesesteaks. Didn't know such a thing existed. As long as you last 3-5 years, getting laid off doesn't matter.

Lol DDS9994 you're right. For those who doubt me, ask the dental school deans who are recruiting you what the cost of attendance would be if accrued interest and origination fees were included in the school's estimate. The only time you have leverage over your dental school is when you haven't signed up yet.

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[Advance]

Man, you are truly something.

I have spoken to RECENT A&M grads and none of them have any problem with the amount of debt they've incurred in dental school.

Yeah, our average debt at graduation is 135k with the median being around 160k. I'm just curious where he's getting this info from.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

Man, you are truly something.

I have spoken to RECENT A&M grads and none of them have any problem with the amount of debt they've incurred in dental school.

I have no problem debating this and airing out info. Show us the debt and income profiles and let us know what year they graduated. What chance do you think someone who's embarrassed about their loans would actually tell you about it?

My sample size in the past 3 months from consults is 36. Average debt is $400,000. Average income $150,000. Typical client is 3 years out of dental school. But you have to be forward looking. You can't buy tuition from 2010-2014.

Also, nowhere did I say that income never changes. Even if you increase the $120,000 income 50% that I mentioned earlier, that still doesn't give you that much to live on

 

[Student Loan Planner]

Yeah, our average debt at graduation is 135k with the median being around 160k. I'm just curious where he's getting this info from.

A&M is a big time outlier by the way. So is Oklahoma and a couple other places.

 

[Advance]

A&M is a big time outlier by the way. So is Oklahoma and a couple other places.

I'm well aware.

At A&M they'll be a path forward. It won't be a fantastic path for most there, but at least a decent one will exist if you play your cards right, live frugally, go for practice ownership, practice in a place with good dental economics, etc. For folks at Tufts, NYU, Pacific and most other private and high cost public schools, the median student is going to be totally screwed

I'm just curious about this statement.

 

[DentalAptitude]

What if you go on to be a practice owner you say? Add another $500,000 of debt. Btw, the east and west coast major metro areas are totally saturated with dentists. The economics of the profession there are horrible. I speak with orthodontists barely making $200,000 all the time living in high cost of living areas. So if you want to make even a livable wage relative to your debt, you'll have to move to Timbuktu to open an office just to cover debt service on the practice loan compared to what you'd make as an associate.

How are you possibly credible as any sort of a financial planner when you use fear mongering language like that? On paper, funding an acquisition for a practice may be "debt." But in reality it's a line of capital that fuels investment in anticipation of cash flow after debt service and interest payments, something a high schooler could calculate.

Go back to DT and circlejerk with those other whiny dentists who moan about their "mediocore" incomes - which by the way are one of the highest averages in the country. You should know better that with proper planning, dental school is a very doable investment, especially in light that the majority of us pursue scholarships.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

I'm well aware.
I'm just curious about this statement.

If median debt is $160k for the class of 2016, that means it will be higher than that for the class of 2020. Say it's only $180,000. If you practice in Texas then you'll make a better than average income especially in the rural spots, but all I said was the path forward wouldn't be fantastic. Is $180,000 in debt with a $140,000 starting income that will grow 5% over time fantastic? I guess it could be. Depends on perspective. But again point of this thread is to show that for the median dental student, it's not a good bet

 

[Incis0r]

I'm not going to gum up this thread with links to my site or anything to show that this isn't the case. Check my profile if you're curious. My fee is very reasonable, and it's only applicable to people who are already sitting with massive debt loads and need help figuring out how to save as much as possible paying it back. None of you have that level of debt (yet) and there isn't anything I'm interested in selling you.

Man, I just wanted to put this out there.

I may not agree with every single thing you've written, but you've gotten some rough responses and you've been nothing short of classy in your reactions.. Thank you for being civil and restrained . And thank you for coming over to talk about the potential ramifications.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

How are you possibly credible as any sort of a financial planner when you use fear mongering language like that? On paper, funding an acquisition for a practice may be "debt." But in reality it's a line of capital that fuels investment in anticipation of cash flow after debt service and interest payments, something a high schooler could calculate.

Go back to DT and circlejerk with those other whiny dentists who moan about their "mediocore" incomes - which by the way are one of the highest averages in the country. You should know better that with proper planning, dental school is a very doable investment, especially in light that the majority of us pursue scholarships.

Explain to everyone what your plan is then. You're free to post your own breakeven analysis disproving my numbers.

 

[DogsGottaEat]

Your break-even assumptions are honestly laughably bad.

Also, don't fall for the line "anyone that gets into dental school can make $X in the corporate world." I did this with medicine a few years back (family issues) and it just isn't true unless you want to be a slave to a corporate entity. My first job paid 45k, btw. This was 4 years ago. I could be an MD currently halfway through intern year. Instead, I am making 65k/yr currently. You have to be willing to sell your soul for those big $ corporate positions. Also, many will require an MBA/Master's that isn't incorporated into your analysis (top programs = 2 years @60k+).

33 MCAT, 3.8 cGPA/sGPA in case anyone is curious. I did it for family reasons and I am quite happy I did but I am now strongly considering going to DO route (once you give up an MD admission you basically are blacklisted going forward) or dentistry. Just poking around here to get all of the facts on dentistry before ruling it out.

The corporate world has a ton of landmines that never get brought up in these discussions. It paints a rosy picture of corporate work while making the med professions sound like a hellscape. They can both be ****ty so do whichever one you prefer. My advice is this, if you are on the fence get a job for a year and reapply for 2018 starting class. It will still be there. I have a gut feeling most on this forum would hate the corporate world.

Sidenote: Before, you lambast me for considering going back I am in a position where my spouse is the primary breadwinner (physician), can pay tuition outright and we have no outstanding debts.

 

[chill45]

The breakeven analysis above shows a similar savings rate among all three. Some folks pointed out that that's not adjusting for the higher living standard that dentists would have over that period, which is true. Here's the breakeven analysis assuming everybody lives on the same flat dollar amount of money every year. I'm assuming an extreme amount of success in private practice, and a higher than average corporate associate salary. Breakevens are 2032 for the private practice dentist, 2054 for the corporate dentist taking less risk. 38 years is a long breakeven, and this is the optimistic scenario
View attachment 213870

So let me get this straight, you're telling me that my friend joe who graduated college is getting a $4,000-$6,000 a year raise every year for eternity!?!?!? Show me some people that are 15 years out of college that are making $130,000 a year and have a net worth of $800,000. Your net worth for them is increasing by $90k-$100k each year at that point yet they are "only" making $130,000 which will equate to roughly $70k-$80k take home pay after taxes and THEN they have to pay all their bills with that. Right now those charts a joke because they are just a bunch of numbers in an excel sheet with no real world data or calculations to back up where you are getting them, feel free to provide them though.

I'm not saying it's not hard to pay back $300k in loans, but you are taking every example to the extreme and saying 90% of people will never pay them back which is just ridiculous. Most people will not graduate with $500k in loans and I don't know ANYBODY who is 37 and makes $130k a year (ok maybe 1 or 2 people) but nowhere NEAR a net worth of $800k. Saying the breakeven point is 38 years just blows my mind.

 

[afdent11]

How are you possibly credible as any sort of a financial planner when you use fear mongering language like that? On paper, funding an acquisition for a practice may be "debt." But in reality it's a line of capital that fuels investment in anticipation of cash flow after debt service and interest payments, something a high schooler could calculate.

Go back to DT and circlejerk with those other whiny dentists who moan about their "mediocore" incomes - which by the way are one of the highest averages in the country. You should know better that with proper planning, dental school is a very doable investment, especially in light that the majority of us pursue scholarships.

Putting "debt" in quotation marks doesn't make it go away or make it any less real. And "pursuing" scholarships doesn't mean you will get them. No one is saying that dentists have terrible incomes. It's the debt to income ratio that is concerning - and that's something my 7 year old can calculate.

Of course proper planning is important. It sounds like you're saying that it is doable if careful steps are taken. I think Travis is saying the same thing. The problem is that there will be many who won't know to or won't be able to take those careful steps to be successful. He's trying to change that, and you guys are attacking him as if he had some ulterior motive. I think the general defensiveness shown on this thread is a combination of not wanting to hear the truth and a little bit of immaturity.

The nice thing is that in a short 4 or 5 years, you'll know for sure if he was right to warn you, or if he was just "fear mongering" - you know, for fun.

 

[DogsGottaEat]

Explain to everyone what your plan is then. You're free to post your own breakeven analysis disproving my numbers.

Your break-even analysis is completely made-up so how can anyone disprove it.

Very few people make 60k without a specialized degree (IT, engineering, accounting) just by walking out of college. Salaries stagnate around 85k for most corporate jobs without an MBA (cost is very high if you want one that will open doors).

Even after getting an MBA you can expect to top out at 150k-200k depending on location. The guys pulling in $3 million/yr are exceptions just like the dentists making $1.5 million/yr.

A more rigorous analysis would be 50k starting with 3-5% bonus for 3 years. A bump to 70k for 3 years. Then split the analysis into part-time MBA (-20k/yr for 3 years but keep salary) and full-time (-60k for 2 years no salary or small salary). Then assume part-time MBA makes 95k with 5% raises with a one-time leap (maybe 2-3 more years) into the 135k range before topping out at 150k. Full-time goes straight to 135k but tops out around 180k.

Dentistry is a risky field to enter given the debts but you are giving way too many positive assumptions to the business professional in your analysis. Also, not sure where you live but that will have a huge factor in any break-even analysis. In dentistry, small city--> higher potential salary. In business, small city--> lower potential.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

So let me get this straight, you're telling me that my friend joe who graduated college is getting a $4,000-$6,000 a year raise every year for eternity!?!?!? Show me some people that are 15 years out of college that are making $130,000 a year and have a net worth of $800,000. Your net worth for them is increasing by $90k-$100k each year at that point yet they are "only" making $130,000 which will equate to roughly $70k-$80k take home pay after taxes and THEN they have to pay all their bills with that. Right now those charts a joke because they are just a bunch of numbers in an excel sheet with no real world data or calculations to back up where you are getting them, feel free to provide them though.

I'm not saying it's not hard to pay back $300k in loans, but you are taking every example to the extreme and saying 90% of people will never pay them back which is just ridiculous. Most people will not graduate with $500k in loans and I don't know ANYBODY who is 37 and makes $130k a year (ok maybe 1 or 2 people) but nowhere NEAR a net worth of $800k. Saying the breakeven point is 38 years just blows my mind.

Only large raises on a percentage basis for the first several years. Then the growth rate goes down to an inflation level increase. If you're smart enough to go to dental school then that breakeven analysis is very solid for the corporate pathway because the typical person who can get into dental school will make more in the corporate world than the average college grad. All the middle level managers I knew made more than what I posted.

In terms of most people not graduating with $500,000 in loans, you're right about that for the class of 2016. How do you not know that I'm not right for the class of 2021? Has anyone here estimated the cost of a debt financed education at the median American dental school for a class graduating in 2021? Again the cost of attendance you get from the dental schools is totally wrong

 

[Student Loan Planner]

Your break-even analysis is completely made-up so how can anyone disprove it.

Very few people make 60k without a specialized degree (IT, engineering, accounting) just by walking out of college. Salaries stagnate around 85k for most corporate jobs without an MBA (cost is very high if you want one that will open doors).

Even after getting an MBA you can expect to top out at 150k-200k depending on location. The guys pulling in $3 million/yr are exceptions just like the dentists making $1.5 million/yr.

A more rigorous analysis would be 50k starting with 3-5% bonus for 3 years. A bump to 70k for 3 years. Then split the analysis into part-time MBA (-20k/yr for 3 years but keep salary) and full-time (-60k for 2 years no salary or small salary). Then assume part-time MBA makes 95k with 5% raises with a one-time leap (maybe 2-3 more years) into the 135k range before topping out at 150k. Full-time goes straight to 135k but tops out around 180k.

Dentistry is a risky field to enter given the debts but you are giving way too many positive assumptions to the business professional in your analysis. Also, not sure where you live but that will have a huge factor in any break-even analysis. In dentistry, small city--> higher potential salary. In business, small city--> lower potential.

That ignores inflation though so those salary numbers wouldn't be realistic unless I capped the dentists' income as well and only considered 'real salary', or salary in 2017 dollars. I think the $200,000 number I used for a corporate dentist 6-7 years out of school is really aggressive frankly. Would be curious to hear what others think about $60,000 being too aggressive for new grads who could've gotten into dental school. I think it's very reasonable for someone graduating in 2017. The job market is pretty good, and as long as you don't go into the public sector I think many folks will earn around that

 

[chill45]

Only large raises on a percentage basis for the first several years. Then the growth rate goes down to an inflation level increase. If you're smart enough to go to dental school then that breakeven analysis is very solid for the corporate pathway because the typical person who can get into dental school will make more in the corporate world than the average college grad. All the middle level managers I knew made more than what I posted.

In terms of most people not graduating with $500,000 in loans, you're right about that for the class of 2016. How do you not know that I'm not right for the class of 2021? Has anyone here estimated the cost of a debt financed education at the median American dental school for a class graduating in 2021? Again the cost of attendance you get from the dental schools is totally wrong

Because 5 years difference isn't going to increase someone's debt by $200k. How do YOU know what the graduating class of 2021 will be in debt? I get the cost of attendance can be skewed but it can also be skewed the other way. I know most of my friends that don't take out the maximum amount of loans offered each year so theirs is actually a good bit lower than anticipated. You are only going about it in the negative way and to an extreme where those people are in a small minority and trying to apply their situation to every single person in dental school. Yeah someone going to a private school living by themself in downtown NYC or Boston and taking out every dollar they can will graduate in a big hole, but that's a very small percentage of people.

 

[cacajuate]

Yeah, our average debt at graduation is 135k with the median being around 160k. I'm just curious where he's getting this info from.

lol you're tuition is $120k. Tell me how those numbers add up.

 

[DentalAptitude]

Explain to everyone what your plan is then. You're free to post your own breakeven analysis disproving my numbers.

How about you come back once you learn how to perform a proper breakeven analysis? First of all, a breakeven analysis is something that determines how many units, how much of a service, or how is needed in order to repay financial obligations, not used to determine net worth. So I suggest you review lecture one of personal finance at Phoenix college or wherever you went. Secondly, how about some footnotes? What are your numbers even based on? Where are your highly credible sources for those income numbers? What about specialists, are they doomed as well? I'm not going to rake through numerous posts you've made to find you used one single sourced that bent the numbers in your favor.

How can you perform such a general analysis and declare dentistry to cause financial ruin? Where are the numbers on bankruptcy statistics? Practice closures? Personal default?

It'd be foolish of me to shrug off the outrageous costs that exist today. I am not pretending that is the case. And I won't perform a breakeven analysis because it'd be even more foolish of me to pretend I have a crystal ball and know my future earnings potential, and the outlook of dentistry outside of the next few immediate years.

Putting "debt" in quotation marks doesn't make it go away or make it any less real. And "pursuing" scholarships doesn't mean you will get them. No one is saying that dentists have terrible incomes. It's the debt to income ratio that is concerning - and that's something my 7 year old can calculate.

Of course proper planning is important. It sounds like you're saying that it is doable if careful steps are taken. I think Travis is saying the same thing. The problem is that there will be many who won't know to or won't be able to take those careful steps to be successful. He's trying to change that, and you guys are attacking him as if he had some ulterior motive. I think the general defensiveness shown on this thread is a combination of not wanting to hear the truth and a little bit of immaturity.

The nice thing is that in a short 4 or 5 years, you'll know for sure if he was right to warn you, or if he was just "fear mongering" - you know, for fun.

No it certainly doesn't you are right. Debt is not a punishment, it is a resource used to fuel investment in tangible assets which generate revenue. Business 101. Why do you think banks lend dentists at one of the lowest rates, and with little substantial credit history, hundreds of thousands of dollars? Because the overwhelming majority of dentists end up alright. I really would love to hear bankruptcy and default numbers, compared to the number of individuals that successfully manage their loans. I will eat my shoe and delete my website if it is greater than 1 in 10.

 

[Advance]

lol you're tuition is $120k. Tell me how those numbers add up.

I'm assuming students get financial help from family. Those were the numbers given during my interview date.

 

[rassulwest]

im waiting for someone to post a financial plan to prove the average 120k starting dentist that attended a 400k school can survive not living like a basic customer service representative for 10-15 years of their life. any taker want to make that excel chart for view?

 

[chill45]

How about you come back once you learn how to perform a proper breakeven analysis? First of all, a breakeven analysis is something that determines how many units, how much of a service, or how is needed in order to repay financial obligations, not used to determine net worth. So I suggest you review lecture one of personal finance at Phoenix college or wherever you went. Secondly, how about some footnotes? What are your numbers even based on? Where are your highly credible sources for those income numbers? What about specialists, are they doomed as well? I'm not going to rake through numerous posts you've made to find you used one single sourced that bent the numbers in your favor.

How can you perform such a general analysis and declare dentistry to cause financial ruin? Where are the numbers on bankruptcy statistics? Practice closures? Personal default?

It'd be foolish of me to shrug off the outrageous costs that exist today. I am not pretending that is the case. And I won't perform a breakeven analysis because it'd be even more foolish of me to pretend I have a crystal ball and know my future earnings potential, and the outlook of dentistry outside of the next few immediate years.



No it certainly doesn't you are right. Debt is not a punishment, it is a resource used to fuel investment in tangible assets which generate revenue. Business 101. Why do you think banks lend dentists at one of the lowest rates, and with little substantial credit history, hundreds of thousands of dollars? Because the overwhelming majority of dentists end up alright. I really would love to hear bankruptcy and default numbers, compared to the number of individuals that successfully manage their loans. I will eat my shoe and delete my website if it is greater than 1 in 10.

I'm glad somebody gets it. Yeah there are a lot of idiots in dental school when it comes to business and it will cost them a LOT of money in the long run, but that's just part of the game.

 

[DogsGottaEat]

Only large raises on a percentage basis for the first several years. Then the growth rate goes down to an inflation level increase. If you're smart enough to go to dental school then that breakeven analysis is very solid for the corporate pathway because the typical person who can get into dental school will make more in the corporate world than the average college grad. All the middle level managers I knew made more than what I posted.

In terms of most people not graduating with $500,000 in loans, you're right about that for the class of 2016. How do you not know that I'm not right for the class of 2021? Has anyone here estimated the cost of a debt financed education at the median American dental school for a class graduating in 2021? Again the cost of attendance you get from the dental schools is totally wrong

Emphasis mine.

This is 100% the reason I can't take you seriously. I have lived this life and it is frankly a load a crap that people on these thread love to sell to make med professionals seem more talented than they really are in most cases. Sure, I have a friend who went straight into ibanking and is making crazy money with terrible hours, btw. The guy also slept and drank his way through college with a 4.0 and a 38 MCAT. Truly a genius. He uses the bathroom and leaves behind more intelligence than 99% of the world will ever possess.

More than likely your average dental student is a very talented but by no means exceptional person. They will not do better than the average business professional and if they do it won't be by 2+ standard deviations. The business world is a ton of "who you know not what you know." If you already know all of the right people you are way more likely to have known that when making a career plan at the start of college and would have considered business earlier. Once you walk away from a dental/medical acceptance nobody will give a rat's behind that you got in. Maybe your mom will tell her friends in Junior League but otherwise, it has 0 impact on your career.

A dental education is a very costly investment but you are using the MOST EXTREME NEGATIVE case and then making it sound as if it is the standard. It is not. You are doing a disservice, not only to this board, but to your own credibility by saying that your breakeven analysis is anyway reflective of reality.

There are real negatives associated with financing a dental education. The problem seems to be that you are bringing up the costs of dentistry and benefits of another career. Do a CBA of dentistry, generic business career (with better assumptions), engineering/comp. sci career and MD/DO and you will get more traction.

 

[chill45]

im waiting for someone to post a financial plan to prove the average 120k starting dentist that attended a 400k school can survive not living like a basic customer service representative for 10-15 years of their life. any taker want to make that excel chart for view?

The problem is if you can't figure it out yourself then you are the kind of person that needs a "student loan planner" and maybe dentistry isn't for you. (not you specifically but just in general)...dentistry is half working on patients and half running an entire business.

 

[Endeross]

There are a lot of smart people here, yet some are attacking the OP when he really is telling the truth. I dont fully agree with his spreadsheet of break-even points but you can make your own and test it out instead of just listening to him.

The vast majority of people coming out of dental school will have in excess of 300k in loans, most OOS students will be 400k+ (barring texas, puerto rico, and a few state schools) This is pretty rough so you better not be in it FOR THE MONEY ALONE. If you want a solid for the money job, go into Computer science.

The sad truth is that we dont have it as good as the docs and dentists of 10-20 years ago where they make a 1:1 ratio of debt to yearly salary coming out of school. I wish that this weren't the case but its the truth. If you want to be a dentist and aquire large loans you just have to expect to live like someone making 20 bucks an hour for a while out of school to get out of the debt quickly, or expect to be indebted for a LONG time with income based repayment. That is the truth, if you don't believe it I suggest opening up this guys spreadsheet and plugging in the numbers https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...tions-of-dental-school-excel-document.868931/. I did it, I know that I will likely have to live on 2k a month of discretionary income for the first 5 years to pay off my loans quick after taxes and housing payments. That's not HORRIBLE but its not like you couldnt do that with a 4 year education in computer science and have a lot more money.

Shoot I have 2 buds that went to school with me that are constantly asking me to change my desired profession because of the debt I'll accrue in school, and they're not wrong, but I want to be a dentist. They spent 25k in loans in undergrad just like me and make 85-110k first year out of the university coding WITH good benefits.

Its not all horrible going into dentistry but its also not like it was anymore either. There are better things you can do if you're doing it for wealth.

 

[DentalAptitude]

Emphasis mine.

This is 100% the reason I can't take you seriously. I have lived this life and it is frankly a load a crap that people on these thread love to sell to make med professionals seem more talented than they really are in most cases. Sure, I have a friend who went straight into ibanking and is making crazy money with terrible hours, btw. The guy also slept and drank his way through college with a 4.0 and a 38 MCAT. Truly a genius. He uses the bathroom and leaves behind more intelligence than 99% of the world will ever possess.

More than likely your average dental student is a very talented but by no means exceptional person. They will not do better than the average business professional and if they do it won't be by 2+ standard deviations. The business world is a ton of "who you know not what you know." If you already know all of the right people you are way more likely to have known that when making a career plan at the start of college and would have considered business earlier. Once you walk away from a dental/medical acceptance nobody will give a rat's behind that you got in. Maybe your mom will tell her friends in Junior League but otherwise, it has 0 impact on your career.

A dental education is a very costly investment but you are using the MOST EXTREME NEGATIVE case and then making it sound as if it is the standard. It is not. You are doing a disservice, not only to this board, but to your own credibility by saying that your breakeven analysis is anyway reflective of reality.

There are real negatives associated with financing a dental education. The problem seems to be that you are bringing up the costs of dentistry and benefits of another career. Do a CBA of dentistry, generic business career (with better assumptions), engineering/comp. sci career and MD/DO and you will get more traction.

Thank you for putting it so eloquently when I failed to do so. This is much more akin to reality. Some will succeed, some won't. Taking an extreme case and declaring it reality is not reasonable, and that is really the end of story. We appreciate words of caution, which we hear daily, but don't need fiction around here.

 

[blablabla1]

lol you're tuition is $120k. Tell me how those numbers add up.

If you've been to interviews so far this cycle, all dental schools have an average debt lower than than their advertised costs because not everyone ends up taking out full loans. Lots of people in each class will have different things going for them such as scholarships and parents willing to pay some of the cost.

 

[SkinnyT]

I've heard that when graduating and starting/continuing family life that you should live like a hygienist for a while and you should be okay. I am not in dental school yet and am just going by what I have read here and on multiple forums.

Live like a hygienist? Hygienists live a baller life, so I would probably advise against.

On the Standard 10 year repayment plan, that's $5,800 a month. Remember you get $7,000 a month in take home pay, so you're left with $1,200 a month to live on. AND THAT's ONLY IF YOU DON'T GO TO THE MOST EXPENSIVE SCHOOLS!

$5,800 a month for loans? That's absurd

 

[rassulwest]

The problem is if you can't figure it out yourself then you are the kind of person that needs a "student loan planner" and maybe dentistry isn't for you. (not you specifically but just in general)...dentistry is half working on patients and half running an entire business.

I dont know what to say to you. how does figuring a valid financial plan now make me or anyone not suited for a career in dentistry? Am i suppose to be born with the knowledge to do the work of a student planner?

 

[Student Loan Planner]

A dental education is a very costly investment but you are using the MOST EXTREME NEGATIVE case and then making it sound as if it is the standard. It is not. You are doing a disservice, not only to this board, but to your own credibility by saying that your breakeven analysis is anyway reflective of reality.

There are real negatives associated with financing a dental education. The problem seems to be that you are bringing up the costs of dentistry and benefits of another career. Do a CBA of dentistry, generic business career (with better assumptions), engineering/comp. sci career and MD/DO and you will get more traction.

I can run that analysis, but it's not worth my time to try to convince anyone. How about I upload the spreadsheet my assumptions are based on, and anybody who wants to can see the analysis, the assumptions, and make their own and post them. Let's crowdsource it. The competent people on the forum can use this spreadsheet to show everyone their own analysis.

Let's help folks. If you have issue with my assumptions, create your own. I originally called it 'dentist v engineer' bc that's what I was going to compare it to initially. I think the corp simulation is probably low for engineering and maybe a little high for general business, but it's not outrageously off by any means. Maybe the corporate dentistry breakeven is 2045 instead of mid 2050s idk.

 

[chill45]

I dont know what to say to you. how does figuring a valid financial plan now make me or anyone not suited for a career in dentistry? Am i suppose to be born with the knowledge to do the work of a student planner?

I'm not saying your shouldn't figure that out, you absolutely should do it! But you have to be able to do it yourself or have someone trusted you can go to and show you. Otherwise you'll just be listening to the OP and think you are about to enter hell when that's just not reality. No you aren't born with the knowledge but it's easy to get on google and eventually piece it together. I honestly think that's what makes some of the most successful dentists. They don't wait and just listen for someone to tell them what to do, they go out there and research it and make an informed decision on their own. If i posted a spreadsheet of what you are asking then why would I expect you to believe me any more than the OP. You have to do your own research and make a decision for yourself.

 

[DDS9994]

At A&M they'll be a path forward. It won't be a fantastic path for most there, but at least a decent one will exist if you play your cards right, live frugally, go for practice ownership, practice in a place with good dental economics, etc. For folks at Tufts, NYU, Pacific and most other private and high cost public schools, the median student is going to be totally screwed

I think your job is done here Travis, as you can see your message is

There are a lot of smart people here, yet some are attacking the OP when he really is telling the truth. I dont fully agree with his spreadsheet of break-even points but you can make your own and test it out instead of just listening to him.

The vast majority of people coming out of dental school will have in excess of 300k in loans, most OOS students will be 400k+ (barring texas, puerto rico, and a few state schools) This is pretty rough so you better not be in it FOR THE MONEY ALONE. If you want a solid for the money job, go into Computer science.

The sad truth is that we dont have it as good as the docs and dentists of 10-20 years ago where they make a 1:1 ratio of debt to yearly salary coming out of school. I wish that this weren't the case but its the truth. If you want to be a dentist and aquire large loans you just have to expect to live like someone making 20 bucks an hour for a while out of school to get out of the debt quickly, or expect to be indebted for a LONG time with income based repayment. That is the truth, if you don't believe it I suggest opening up this guys spreadsheet and plugging in the numbers https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...tions-of-dental-school-excel-document.868931/. I did it, I know that I will likely have to live on 2k a month of discretionary income for the first 5 years to pay off my loans quick after taxes and housing payments. That's not HORRIBLE but its not like you couldnt do that with a 4 year education in computer science and have a lot more money.

Shoot I have 2 buds that went to school with me that are constantly asking me to change my desired profession because of the debt I'll accrue in school, and they're not wrong, but I want to be a dentist. They spent 25k in loans in undergrad just like me and make 85-110k first year out of the university coding WITH good benefits.

Its not all horrible going into dentistry but its also not like it was anymore either. There are better things you can do if you're doing it for wealth.

You are wise and realistic, you will do well.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

I dont know what to say to you. how does figuring a valid financial plan now make me or anyone not suited for a career in dentistry? Am i suppose to be born with the knowledge to do the work of a student planner?

My fiance is a fellowship trained surgical professor at a prestigious academic hospital. When I met her, she had a dozen loans half under the direct loan program and half under the FFELP program. She used forbearance several times, and she hadn't heard of the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program. She had used the IBR program, but had never heard of REPAYE. She also didn't know about student loan refinancing with places like Sofi or CommonBond. I used my excel skills from my bond trading days to create this spreadsheet https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...rent-income-driven-repayment-options.1237204/ which got viewed over 300,000 times and lead me to start this student loan planning business.

It shouldn't have been so freaking complicated to figure out what loan strategy was optimal for her. She studied medicine for thousands of hours but didn't know finance all that well. Even so, she's one of the smartest people I know and if it was intuitive she would've figured it out. So I don't think even the most intelligent dentists will be able to figure out the optimal payback strategy bc of the complexity that exists in the marketplace today

 

[rassulwest]

I'm not saying your shouldn't figure that out, you absolutely should do it! But you have to be able to do it yourself or have someone trusted you can go to and show you. Otherwise you'll just be listening to the OP and think you are about to enter hell when that's just not reality. No you aren't born with the knowledge but it's easy to get on google and eventually piece it together. I honestly think that's what makes some of the most successful dentists. They don't wait and just listen for someone to tell them what to do, they go out there and research it and make an informed decision on their own. If i posted a spreadsheet of what you are asking then why would I expect you to believe me any more than the OP. You have to do your own research and make a decision for yourself.

You should limit your assumption making. I simply asked for the excel chart proving it could be done for the average dentist. That doesn't imply that I have not done any research nor that i need someone to direct my path for me. its my job to gather information from all sources and compare them to ensure that my results are accurate.

 

[blablabla1]

I think there needs to be a huge reality check in this thread. We just elected Donald Trump as our president because a vast number of Americans are living terribly. These are the people who are living paycheck to paycheck and have no means for upward mobility. These are the people who are getting laid off because their jobs are becoming automated. These are the people losing their jobs because they're becoming oursourced to other countries.

There are very few jobs in this country that allow you to live comfortably without having to sacrifice your body, your family life, or your social life. It's easy to tell everyone to be a computer scientist but even those jobs are hyper competitive and can be very tolling due to strict and aggressive deadlines and little social interaction. Most jobs in business that can bring you a very high salary belong to the elite who have many connections or have long intensive hours (investment bankers). You can't just assume that everyone in the business sector is going to do well while working the same hours as a typical dentist. Every job except for a select few will have some sort of sacrifice.

More than 50% of current practicing dentists are approaching the age of retirement. They can continue to delay their retirement, but eventually something has to give. Dentists will always be in need and it seems unlikely that it will be a job that can be automated in our lifetime. There is tons of potential for upward mobility in dentistry and many options that don't restrict you to one type of job.

The fact of the matter is that the most dentists will be leading lives that are vastly better than most people in the United States. Does it have the MOST potential for earning? No. But I think a love for the sciences, for using your hands, and for talking with people make up for the debt that we will accrue because even after all that, it still provides great financial security, better than most people.

It's important to ground yourself and realize what you need in order to be happy. If you need a Lambo in order to enjoy your life, it's time to reconsider your priorities.

 

[DogsGottaEat]

My fiance is a fellowship trained surgical professor at a prestigious academic hospital. When I met her, she had a dozen loans half under the direct loan program and half under the FFELP program. She used forbearance several times, and she hadn't heard of the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program. She had used the IBR program, but had never heard of REPAYE. She also didn't know about student loan refinancing with places like Sofi or CommonBond. I used my excel skills from my bond trading days to create this spreadsheet https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...rent-income-driven-repayment-options.1237204/ which got viewed over 300,000 times and lead me to start this student loan planning business.

It shouldn't have been so freaking complicated to figure out what loan strategy was optimal for her. She studied medicine for thousands of hours but didn't know finance all that well. Even so, she's one of the smartest people I know and if it was intuitive she would've figured it out. So I don't think even the most intelligent dentists will be able to figure out the optimal payback strategy bc of the complexity that exists in the marketplace today

I do want to go ahead and thank you for your contribution and desire to bring up a heated topic. You've been nothing but level-headed throughout the discussion and that is commendable. Loans are unnecessarily complicated/cumbersome and addressing this aspect of any professional education is a service that many (most) students desperately need.

That said, the document that @Endeross linked is by far a better analysis. For me, if I chose to go back to dental school I will be applying for either the 2022 or the 2023 class with the intent of going to my in-state program (220k, actually 180k but added 30k for tuition changes). With a starting salary estimated at 120k I will be making a similar amount ($400 more per month) of take home money to what I make now. However, that would be worth it to me. If anything that analysis is showing me how reasonable dental school is if it is something you want to do. Likewise, it should serve as a wake up call to people who are thinking of doing dental because they want a lavish lifestyle.

Dentist v Engineer will probably tilt towards engineer from 25 until 50. After 50 or so my guess is dentistry comes out ahead. A 25 year lead time isn't anything to laugh at but it is also important to go in a direction of your interests especially if the financial difference is negligible (as it would be in my case)

 

[Incis0r]

I think your job is done here Travis, as you can see your message is

his message is what?? DON'T LEAVE ME IN SUSPENSE

 

[chill45]

You should limit your assumption making. I simply asked for the excel chart proving it could be done for the average dentist. That doesn't imply that I have not done any research nor that i need someone to direct my path for me. its my job to gather information from all sources and compare them to ensure that my results are accurate.

I apologize then, but the proof isn't on an excel sheet it's down the road at the local dentist. There are plenty of young graduates that would share their knowledge and talk numbers with you. Yeah it helps to make a spreadsheet to help give you an idea, but the OP stated 90% of dentists can't pay their loans off and all you have to do is go talk to some practicing to realize how well they have it.

 

[DDS9994]

his message is what?? DON'T LEAVE ME IN SUSPENSE

Ohhh snap, it got cut off LOL, your message has been received, loud and clear by everyone.

 

[Hopeful Graduate]

Financing scares people, which I appreciate, let the cream rise to the top

 

[Student Loan Planner]

I apologize then, but the proof isn't on an excel sheet it's down the road at the local dentist. There are plenty of young graduates that would share their knowledge and talk numbers with you. Yeah it helps to make a spreadsheet to help give you an idea, but the OP stated 90% of dentists can't pay their loans off and all you have to do is go talk to some practicing to realize how well they have it.

Look!!! I found a few dentists who've shown me their net worth and tax forms and paid tuition from 2017-2021 and they're doing great! NONE of them relies on income driven repayment programs to avoid being driven to bankruptcy by their student debt

 

[Mascota]

I love this "well my anecdotal evidence trumps your math and statistical analysis!!" For the love of god people, use some math with a decent sample size if you're wanting to counter what Student Loan Planner is saying. Don't resort to ad hominem attacks just because you don't like the reality he's painting. The fact of the matter is there's a lot of truth to what he's saying.

 

[trule01]

so should I go to dental school or no... stressing me out -_-

 

[Student Loan Planner]

so should I go to dental school or no... stressing me out -_-

If you go through the military or have rich family members to cover the cost and you like it then sure. If you get into your state school and get in state tuition, you need to really like it and have a good plan. If you only get into out of state or private schools, then probably not. From a financial standpoint, you should evaluate other options.

From a personal note, I was dead set on doing a PhD in economics my junior year of college. I was doing research with a professor, working as a TA, reading everything I could get my hands on, and taking advanced level math classes to have an attractive application to a top 10 program. Then I took 'Real Analysis' with a guy who hated teaching undergrads and failed everyone but 4 or 5 in a class of 30-35. I could've retaken the course with another professor and continued down my PhD path, but I didn't because I realized it kinda sucked for me to be in studying all the time instead of enjoying football games and hanging out with friends occasionally. But I still felt lost and really stressed out.

I went to the library and read a bunch of books on what people do with their lives, and I took the first level of the Charted Financial Analyst program in my senior year of college. Leveraged that into a corp job after graduation and things have turned out just fine.

I say that bc the vitriol of some people's reactions is clearly coming from an emotional place. People are upset bc I'm messing with plans they've had for years. I get that. Just realize you're not a failure if you change course. If you go to school and have to call me in 4-5 years, that's obviously great for my business. Just have a plan and don't go into it blind thinking your education is your ticket.

 

[Advance]

so should I go to dental school or no... stressing me out -_-

Don't go. You won't be able to pay back your loans. I kid. But in all actuality I wouldn't change my career based on something someone says on the internet. There have been many threads about student debt in the past. There has also been many success stories by dentists posted on these forums as well. If you have a chance talk to recent grads/residents and get their take on it.

 

[nice_guy1]

"They say education is the key to success, but yet they keep changing the lock." Do it for the passion, as for me i like money so im out.

 

[Likkriue]

I also for your analysis, very few people take out the max amount shown on the tuition sheet. Many fees can be waived.

 

[bigstix808]

How about you come back once you learn how to perform a proper breakeven analysis? First of all, a breakeven analysis is something that determines how many units, how much of a service, or how is needed in order to repay financial obligations, not used to determine net worth. So I suggest you review lecture one of personal finance at Phoenix college or wherever you went. Secondly, how about some footnotes? What are your numbers even based on? Where are your highly credible sources for those income numbers? What about specialists, are they doomed as well? I'm not going to rake through numerous posts you've made to find you used one single sourced that bent the numbers in your favor.

How can you perform such a general analysis and declare dentistry to cause financial ruin? Where are the numbers on bankruptcy statistics? Practice closures? Personal default?

It'd be foolish of me to shrug off the outrageous costs that exist today. I am not pretending that is the case. And I won't perform a breakeven analysis because it'd be even more foolish of me to pretend I have a crystal ball and know my future earnings potential, and the outlook of dentistry outside of the next few immediate years.



No it certainly doesn't you are right. Debt is not a punishment, it is a resource used to fuel investment in tangible assets which generate revenue. Business 101. Why do you think banks lend dentists at one of the lowest rates, and with little substantial credit history, hundreds of thousands of dollars? Because the overwhelming majority of dentists end up alright. I really would love to hear bankruptcy and default numbers, compared to the number of individuals that successfully manage their loans. I will eat my shoe and delete my website if it is greater than 1 in 10.

damn this thread went off pretty quick!! i think the OP is fine talking about his predictions and that dental school debt is a real thing, and can be, and IS a crippling thing to hold on to for a LOT of new grads. i didn't look at his spread sheets and what not so i won't say anything about those, but what i can say is that most, if not all you pre-dental and current dental students are ahead of the curve when it comes to being informed about your decision to tackle dental school. but there is a VAST majority that are clueless! those are the ones that graduate and work the corporate mills, or ****ty associate jobs and barely break even on a month to month basis. sure, everyone knows that dentist that is killing it... we all do. but no one ever talks about the other 17 that are within 8 miles of his office barely making ends meat. financial planning is not easy and the student loan guy is simply trying to offer a service to help with planning your loan repayment etc.

if you think you're going to just kill right out of the gate and pay your loans off in 3 years you're amazing and a unicorn and very much the exception. this does NOT happen as often as you'd think. I'm 4 years out and this was not even CLOSE to my situation. i know a LOT of dentists around the country and am very involved with organizations local, state, and nation wide. you can play naive all you want, but the debt and taxes will not go away.

and for the dentalaptitude fella, the default rate on dental business loans (not SBA) is less than 0.5%! as told to me by a VP of lending of the dental dept of B of A. those loans are GREAT for them as they make the banks lots of money! .... the caveat... you have to own your own business to make the real cash and so few new grads are willing to take out ANOTHER half million loan on top of their 3-400k student debt to buy / build an office!! so those folks that pay their loans off super quick are more than likely practice owners. you'd be hard pressed to find an associate dentist that is or has done that ... and again ... thats the exception. plenty of grads are "managing" their debt, but at what cost? working 2-3 jobs? 40-60 hr work weeks? living like a broke college kid? you don't know what you don't know.

 

[rassulwest]

I also for your analysis, very few people take out the max amount shown on the tuition sheet. Many fees can be waived.

what are some general fees that can be waived out of the COA?

 

[super frank]

More than 50% of current practicing dentists are approaching the age of retirement. They can continue to delay their retirement, but eventually something has to give. Dentists will always be in need and it seems unlikely that it will be a job that can be automated in our lifetime. There is tons of potential for upward mobility in dentistry and many options that don't restrict you to one type of job.

This is an excellent point and I am surprised it was not brought up earlier as I was reading through all these posts.

 

[PreDent0000]

A lot of you are missing a few key points:
1) Dental school costs are rising like crazy. Just because you know people that are practicing dentists and are doing fine doesn't disprove what he is saying. Their costs to attend school were much lower than they would be today even if they only graduated a few years ago
2) State schools in Texas may not be that expensive but majority of students will be attending much more expensive schools and wanting to live in over saturated cities. This warning is mainly for them
3) When dental schools tell you the average debt students take out, this includes students who have rich parents that paid for their schooling and have $0 or minimal debt that skews the average. There are more students like this than you think. How many students have you met alone who have parents with very successful dental practices? Unlikely that these students are paying 100% of their education

He isn't saying don't pursue dentistry by any means. He is saying only do if it is truly something you love or if you have significant financial assistance. Don't do it because you think it sounds decent and you think it is a high paying career because you know 5 dentists who are 50 years old and make a lot of money. They didn't face the same restrictions that students face today.

I am 3 years out of undergrad. 5 out of my 6 best friends make well into 6 figures (some over 300k) with careers in finance, real estate, sales and computer science. None of them had family connections. Some of them love their jobs and some of them hate their jobs. The point is that if you are smart enough to get into dental school then you are smart enough to have a high paying career elsewhere. So consider your other options if one of your main goals in life is to live upper-middle class or better. Dentistry will always have opportunities to make a killing through owning your own practice, but these opportunities are slim compared to what they were 10-20 years ago. If you love dentistry then do it, but if you are seeking a high paying career then you should really be considering other options, especially if you want to live in LA, New York, Chicago, etc.